I have had just a few observations of prices on things that I am
familiar with. And I think that outside of the realm of unsold
overpriced BuyItNow stuff, the prices for used industrial related
things that actually sell, are tanking dramatically.

Here's one example.

I sold a 8 inch diameter steam pressure gauge this summer for $240 or
so. (to someone who operates a real steam engine railroad, no less)

Just now, I needed one, and won a supposedly very similar condition
steam pressure gauge, made of brass, 0-200 PSI, for just $31. The
gauge was perfectly well described, all the right keywords were in the
title, etc. This was not in any way any unusually lucky purchase. It
just shows that the market that was willing to pay $240 for a steam
gauge, can only pay $31. So whatever sorts of people who were buying
steam gauges before, do not have any money left.

I am observing the same things occur in other sorts of things. A 8
inch three jaw chuck, L0 mount, great condition, $50. It is a
little scary to see the extent of it.

What muddles this is that eBay changed its fee structure, and there is
a lot of stuff listed with Buy It Now, that is overpriced and creates
an impression of high prices, but it is a false impression.

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:34:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011
wrote:

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?
----------
Cash is king... try to hang onto it.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message
...
I have had just a few observations of prices on things that I am
familiar with. And I think that outside of the realm of unsold
overpriced BuyItNow stuff, the prices for used industrial related
things that actually sell, are tanking dramatically.

Here's one example.

I sold a 8 inch diameter steam pressure gauge this summer for $240 or
so. (to someone who operates a real steam engine railroad, no less)

Just now, I needed one, and won a supposedly very similar condition
steam pressure gauge, made of brass, 0-200 PSI, for just $31. The
gauge was perfectly well described, all the right keywords were in the
title, etc. This was not in any way any unusually lucky purchase. It
just shows that the market that was willing to pay $240 for a steam
gauge, can only pay $31. So whatever sorts of people who were buying
steam gauges before, do not have any money left.

I am observing the same things occur in other sorts of things. A 8
inch three jaw chuck, L0 mount, great condition, $50. It is a
little scary to see the extent of it.

What muddles this is that eBay changed its fee structure, and there is
a lot of stuff listed with Buy It Now, that is overpriced and creates
an impression of high prices, but it is a false impression.

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?

Agree. From the looks of just garage sales I've been to in the last couple
of months, prices are way down, and sellers are "motivated."

Steve

On 2009-02-02, F George McDuffee wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:34:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011
wrote:

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?
----------
Cash is king... try to hang onto it.

I hang onto some of it, but the time when cash is king is the time to
buy, not the time to hang onto it. The time to hang on to cash is when
everyone is exuberant.

The metalworking stuff is small change.

I switched all my and my wife's retirement accounts into all stocks
late last year (Oct/Nov). I used to have cash in almost all of them
them prior to that.

The best outcome for me, assuming my retirement is 30 years from now,
is that the market would stay depressed forever. This would bring the
highest total return (appreciation plus divvies). Events of last year
show that there may be a good reason for "equity premium", which is
that equities return a little more than bonds, over the long run, due
to higher risk. Last year showed how bad is that risk.

Anyway, going back to the tanking prices, these are a very vivid
illustration of deflation.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message
...
On 2009-02-02, F George McDuffee
wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:34:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011
wrote:

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?
----------
Cash is king... try to hang onto it.

I hang onto some of it, but the time when cash is king is the time to
buy, not the time to hang onto it. The time to hang on to cash is when
everyone is exuberant.

The metalworking stuff is small change.

I switched all my and my wife's retirement accounts into all stocks
late last year (Oct/Nov). I used to have cash in almost all of them
them prior to that.

What happened to your euros?

--
Ed Huntress

On 2009-02-02, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message
...
On 2009-02-02, F George McDuffee
wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:34:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011
wrote:

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?
----------
Cash is king... try to hang onto it.

I hang onto some of it, but the time when cash is king is the time to
buy, not the time to hang onto it. The time to hang on to cash is when
everyone is exuberant.

The metalworking stuff is small change.

I switched all my and my wife's retirement accounts into all stocks
late last year (Oct/Nov). I used to have cash in almost all of them
them prior to that.

What happened to your euros?


Nothing, I still have them.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:14:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011
wrote:

Anyway, going back to the tanking prices, these are a very vivid
illustration of deflation.
---------
That or the evaporation of the spodulicks.



Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Some of your points may be valid, Ig, but I see this same situation every
year. Extra holiday gift cash has been spent, heating bills are peaking, and
yesterday was a superbowl game (major distraction to some folks), so I
believe other factors are involved (generally always).

About the end of March and into April, competive bidding will pick up again,
in anticipation of tax returns, lower heating bills, warmer weather
activities and other factors.

I'm surprised by some of the prices sometimes, generally when a new member
gets involved in the bidding, and also a number of items that normally sell
from moderate to high prices, that don't even get bid on.

I'm still bewildered at the over $150 that I got for a used music CD when I
started selling in 1999. The ad had poor pictures but a detailed
description, but I wasn't an experienced seller.

Experienced sellers will hold onto items that know will bring exeptionally
good prices until things pick up again, IMO.

I watch a wide range of lot of different types of items from tooling,
machine accessories, video, audio, some avionics, hand tools, certain
vintage power tools, various electronic gear/parts, etc.

This is generally a good time to buy things that are sluggish at this time
of year, but it's a typical annual situation, IMO.

I'm convinced that there are completely unpredictable circumstances, such as
a buyer that's missed out on numerous attempts to get something cheap,
finally decides that they're done trying, and go ahead and spend 2-4 times
as much as they had been hoping to get the item for.

An 8" pressure gauge is definitely an obscure item, and I wouldn't have any
idea of how to consider it being an economic indicator.

--
WB
..........
metalworking projects
www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html


s13011" wrote in message
...
I have had just a few observations of prices on things that I am
familiar with. And I think that outside of the realm of unsold
overpriced BuyItNow stuff, the prices for used industrial related
things that actually sell, are tanking dramatically.

Here's one example.

I sold a 8 inch diameter steam pressure gauge this summer for $240 or
so. (to someone who operates a real steam engine railroad, no less)

Just now, I needed one, and won a supposedly very similar condition
steam pressure gauge, made of brass, 0-200 PSI, for just $31. The
gauge was perfectly well described, all the right keywords were in the
title, etc. This was not in any way any unusually lucky purchase. It
just shows that the market that was willing to pay $240 for a steam
gauge, can only pay $31. So whatever sorts of people who were buying
steam gauges before, do not have any money left.

I am observing the same things occur in other sorts of things. A 8
inch three jaw chuck, L0 mount, great condition, $50. It is a
little scary to see the extent of it.

What muddles this is that eBay changed its fee structure, and there is
a lot of stuff listed with Buy It Now, that is overpriced and creates
an impression of high prices, but it is a false impression.

The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.
You figure it out, I know I can't!
Greg

Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.

Greg O wrote:

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.
You figure it out, I know I can't!
Greg

Which one was the counterfeit?

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 19:17:27 -0600, the renowned "Greg O"
wrote:

"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.
You figure it out, I know I can't!
Greg

It's like that in real auctions sometimes. And sometimes people hold
back waiting for the cheaper prices and then get into a bidding war
for the few of whatever that are left so you see the opposite effect.

A lot of what's on eBay these days is not really in limited supply so
the real auction dynamic doesn't show up.



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.

I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have been
touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues, and
driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I personally think
the real estate industry does the same thing every time the interest rate
begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.

On 2009-02-03, Greg O wrote:
"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.

Well ... a few years ago, I was collecting tri-mikes (precision
three-point contact internal diameter micrometers), and there were two
auctions running at the same time for the same set (three or four mics,
two setting rings, the extension tubes, and the wrenches, all in a
nicely-fitted wooden box). Actually -- the poorly described set was a
little more complete, though I forget what was missing from the other.

One had lots of wonderful photos and detailed descriptions, the
other had a much less detailed description, and only a couple of photos
-- enough to tell me that it was the same, and that it was what I
wanted.

The poorly described one closed a couple of hours before the one
with the wonderful description, and I opted to bid on that
poorly-described one as the bids were *already* significantly higher on
the wonderful one. IIRC, I got the poorly-described set for about three
hundred less than the wonderfully-described one, and was thankful that
the later one was drawing most of the attention of those who were
interested. I don't know at this point, but the wonderfully-described
one had the feel of a "Reliable Tools" auction of the period.

I really would have expected more competition for the
poorly-described set since there were two hours or so between them to
give people a second chance at the well-described set, but apparently
most were too dazzled by the description on the second set -- so I got
the first set for a very reasonable price. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:


wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.

I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have been
touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues, and
driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I personally think
the real estate industry does the same thing every time the interest rate
begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.


The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

"Elliot G" wrote in message
m...

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.

I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have
been touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues,
and driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I personally
think the real estate industry does the same thing every time the interest
rate begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.

Two things that have always given me a feeling of security when in my
pocket:

a gun and cash.

Steve

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message
...
On 2009-02-03, Greg O wrote:
"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game
for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close
to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the
first,
I bought for $35.

Well ... a few years ago, I was collecting tri-mikes (precision
three-point contact internal diameter micrometers), and there were two
auctions running at the same time for the same set (three or four mics,
two setting rings, the extension tubes, and the wrenches, all in a
nicely-fitted wooden box). Actually -- the poorly described set was a
little more complete, though I forget what was missing from the other.

One had lots of wonderful photos and detailed descriptions, the
other had a much less detailed description, and only a couple of photos
-- enough to tell me that it was the same, and that it was what I
wanted.

The poorly described one closed a couple of hours before the one
with the wonderful description, and I opted to bid on that
poorly-described one as the bids were *already* significantly higher on
the wonderful one. IIRC, I got the poorly-described set for about three
hundred less than the wonderfully-described one, and was thankful that
the later one was drawing most of the attention of those who were
interested. I don't know at this point, but the wonderfully-described
one had the feel of a "Reliable Tools" auction of the period.

I really would have expected more competition for the
poorly-described set since there were two hours or so between them to
give people a second chance at the well-described set, but apparently
most were too dazzled by the description on the second set -- so I got
the first set for a very reasonable price. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

I built up a collection of about three dozen Vise Grip 11R, and other
various clamps by simply watching "Vice Grip" auctions.

Steve

On 2009-02-03, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2009-02-03, Greg O wrote:
"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?


Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.

Well ... a few years ago, I was collecting tri-mikes (precision
three-point contact internal diameter micrometers), and there were two
auctions running at the same time for the same set (three or four mics,
two setting rings, the extension tubes, and the wrenches, all in a
nicely-fitted wooden box). Actually -- the poorly described set was a
little more complete, though I forget what was missing from the other.

One had lots of wonderful photos and detailed descriptions, the
other had a much less detailed description, and only a couple of photos
-- enough to tell me that it was the same, and that it was what I
wanted.

The poorly described one closed a couple of hours before the one
with the wonderful description, and I opted to bid on that
poorly-described one as the bids were *already* significantly higher on
the wonderful one. IIRC, I got the poorly-described set for about three
hundred less than the wonderfully-described one, and was thankful that
the later one was drawing most of the attention of those who were
interested. I don't know at this point, but the wonderfully-described
one had the feel of a "Reliable Tools" auction of the period.

I really would have expected more competition for the
poorly-described set since there were two hours or so between them to
give people a second chance at the well-described set, but apparently
most were too dazzled by the description on the second set -- so I got
the first set for a very reasonable price. :-)

Some things sell for a lot less than identical things that are better
described or pictured. You told us a good story, I bought a well
working TIG welder for $10, etc.

But that is not what I wanted to point out.

The point that I was making, was that the steam gauge that sold for
$31 was NOT poorly described, it was well photographed and properly
titled and so on. And still it sold for 8 TIMES less than a very
similar gauge, sold by me last summer. So I was comparing apples to
apples.

Here they a

My gauge from last summer closed for $240:

http://yabe.algebra.com/~ichudov/mis.../ebayhist.html

The gauge that I bought this month for $31:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250361252136

When I was selling my gauge last summer, I did quite a bit of
research. There is (was) a market for these gauges, mostly among
collectors or well off people who want to have a gauge like that on
the wall of their shop showing air pressure, etc. Some retired people
buy these gauges in poor condition, polish and resell, etc. It was a
real market.

These gauges are not unusual or rare items, but they were well sought
after. Apparently, not any more. The market for them disappeared.

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.
I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have been
touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues, and
driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I personally think
the real estate industry does the same thing every time the interest rate
begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.


The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."


Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:
The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.


The red army will be looking for every Form 4473 they can get thier hands
on.
Thier first stop will be the local gun shops before they advance on citizens
to confiscate thier guns. First hand experience 20 years ago when chicago
cops were trying to intemidate suburban gun stores to give them copies of
of thier Form 4473 in an effort to track down chicago residents that had
purchased pistols. Of course we asked them for the court order and they
left enpty handed rather unhappy uttering threats as they left. It is very
possible that
under the current administration the BATF will be making available
Form 4473 to cities that practice gun control if asked by a city that has
strict gun control laws.

Hope you make a full recovery gunner.

Best Regards
Tom.

"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.
I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have
been touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues,
and driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I
personally think the real estate industry does the same thing every time
the interest rate begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.


The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."


Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Shhh! Don't tell them. The paranoid gun nutz are going to be a big help in
spending us out of this recession. They'll buy wall-to-wall shootin' irons
and a basement full of ammo. Well, not actually a *basement*, in Gunner's
case, but you get the idea. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"cavelamb" wrote in message
m...
Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.
I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have
been touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues,
and driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I
personally think the real estate industry does the same thing every time
the interest rate begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.

The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Shhh! Don't tell them. The paranoid gun nutz are going to be a big help in
spending us out of this recession. They'll buy wall-to-wall shootin' irons
and a basement full of ammo. Well, not actually a *basement*, in Gunner's
case, but you get the idea. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress




600 rounds for the .380 and 2000 for my rifle, Ed.

But I bought most of that quite a while back.

I don't really think I need much more.



Richard

"Wild_Bill" wrote:

Some of your points may be valid, Ig, but I see this same situation every
year. Extra holiday gift cash has been spent, heating bills are peaking, and
yesterday was a superbowl game (major distraction to some folks), so I
believe other factors are involved (generally always).


I've bought things on Christmas night that went way cheap. I like to check Ebay for
bargains on holidays when people might be busy doing other things.

The current economy has to have an effect on prices as Iggy said.

We may have sellers that didn't want to sell but need the money. Buyers in fear of their
jobs don't want to spend much on things they don't really need. Ebay is filled with
things we want but don't actually need

Then there is a really twisted situation in my life, after laying off 1/3 of the plant we
are all working OT to make shipping schedules so in this down time, I'm a bit more flush
and able to buy. I doubt that one is happening for most.

I think that Wild_Bill and Iggy are both right. Like the market right now, it is a buyers
opportunity on Ebay.

Wes

Gunner Asch wrote:

The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.


Joe Bidden, next in line in succession and having the ear of the President. Almost as bad
as having Chuck Schumer, Indy Bank toppler (election timing) and over all gun grabber, as
Veep. I hope nothing happens to the current President during his term.

Somehow unlike our English brothers in other nations, I don't think we are going to turn
our arms over because some tin pot dictator is worried that the Second Amendment might be
his undoing. That Constitution, a pesky thing for those that don't believe in freedom for
the masses.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Feb 1, 11:09*pm, F. George McDuffee gmcduf...@mcduffee-
associates.us wrote:
On Sun, 01 Feb 2009 22:34:42 -0600, Ignoramus13011

wrote:
The one implication is that if you stil have a job and money, and
space in your shop, it is a great time to buy used stuff like this
right on ebay.

The other implication is that if you go to liquidation auctions
infrequently, it is a good idea to recheck the prices that you used
to base your bids on, in order to not overbid.

Agree? Disagree?

----------
Cash is king... *try to hang onto it.

Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Agreed...none of us here have seen a downturn like this one...none of
us.

TMT

On Feb 2, 7:41*pm, "
wrote:
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.

Guns and gold are in a bubble.

It will burst like any other bubble.

TMT

On Feb 3, 12:36*am, Wes wrote:
"Wild_Bill" wrote:
Some of your points may be valid, Ig, but I see this same situation every
year. Extra holiday gift cash has been spent, heating bills are peaking, and
yesterday was a superbowl game (major distraction to some folks), so I
believe other factors are involved (generally always).

I've bought things on Christmas night that went way cheap. *I like to check Ebay for
bargains on holidays when people might be busy doing other things.

The current economy has to have an effect on prices as Iggy said. *

We may have sellers that didn't want to sell but need the money. *Buyers in fear of their
jobs don't want to spend much on things they don't really need. *Ebay is filled with
things we want but don't actually need

Then there is a really twisted situation in my life, after laying off 1/3 of the plant we
are all working OT to make shipping schedules so in this down time, I'm a bit more flush
and able to buy. *I doubt that one is happening for most.

I think that Wild_Bill and Iggy are both right. *Like the market right now, it is a buyers
opportunity on Ebay.

Wes

I agree...it is a buyer's market.

Too_Many_Tools has been busy buying many more tools at very good
prices.

Unfortunately the selection available is small...Ebay is not what it
used to be.

TMT

On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 22:50:59 -0600, cavelamb
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:22:29 -0600, "Elliot G"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Try to find .308 Winchester brass on the internet.
The priced from 100 suppliers has doubled and is out of stock

No matter what city you are in in the USA, you cannot get Gold in your
hand at $50 over spot price.

AR15 rifles are all back ordered and jacked up in price.

On line gun suppliers cannot answer the phone, they are so busy
shipping.

Try squeezing you butt into a gun show at 8:00 a.m. when they used to
be mostly empty. They are jammed with crowds.

What does it all mean?
Enough people are frightened enough to buy up the military arms and
Gold.
I think a lot of this is just hype. Gun dealers and gun investors have been
touting the intent of Democrats to spool up the gun control issues, and
driving prices straight up ever since last spring or so. I personally think
the real estate industry does the same thing every time the interest rate
begin to climb.

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.


The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."


Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Liberal =progressive = Socialist = Communist

Just a matter of degree. We dont have to worry about OUR army...just
_their_ law enforcement.


"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Gunner Asch wrote:

The only problem is, the gun folks may very well be right.

The gun dealers only have to point at recent and current Democrat
legistlation and statements of intent by the Left.

When they themselves declare that your guns and your liberty are up for
grabs....the gun dealers dont need to use Democrat Scare Tactics.

When the Communist army is spotted on the horizon, and headed your
way....the prudent man stockes up,and prepares.

Fortunately...most of us who actually have a time sense that goes back
before last Shrove Tuesday...have made those preps already.

Those that ignore history, are doomed.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Liberal =progressive = Socialist = Communist

Just a matter of degree. We dont have to worry about OUR army...just
_their_ law enforcement.


"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."


I disagree, Gunner.
About the Army part. You are right as rain about the law part.


Late 1969 or maybe early 1970 - Fort Stewart, Georgia.

We were rounded up and put through several days of crowd control training
because the crowds were getting (getting?) pretty loud and scary.

Regular Army! Not National Guard.

At the end of the last day I went up to the OIC and told him I was just
back from (that place we don't talk about) defending this nation and wasn't
about to point a rifle at an American citizen. Really strange reaction.
We locked eyes for a few moments, then he nodded and said, "I understand".

They moved me over to guard duty at the POL dump for the last few months of
my Army career.

Fair trade, I thought.

But I didn't see any others standing up against that kind of use of the Army.

And if it comes to it today, there will be enough people who follow orders that
they will accomplish their mission - what ever the politicians in charge tell
them it is.

Be afraid, gunner.
Be very afraid.

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:22:06 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(


Indeed.
Military to Pledge Oath To Obama, Not Constitution
Published: Jan 29, 2009
Author: Michele Chang
Post Date: 2009-01-29 10:38:14

Defense Robert Gates is extremely frustrated with orders that the
White House is contemplating. According to sources at the Pentagon,
including all branches of the armed forces, the Obama Administration may
break with a centuries-old tradition.

A spokesman for General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that the Obama Administration wants to
have soldiers and officers pledge a loyalty oath directly to the office
of the President, and no longer to the Constitution.

"The oath to the Constitution is as old as the document itself." the
spokesman said, "At no time in American history, not even in the Civil
War, did the oath change or the subject of the oath differ. It has
always been to the Constitution."

The back-and-forth between the White House and the Defense
Department was expected as President George W. Bush left office.
President Obama has already signed orders to close Guantanamo and to
pull combat troops from Iraq. But, this, say many at the Defense
Department, goes to far.

"Technically, we can't talk about it before it becomes official
policy." the spokesman continued. "However, the Defense Department,
including the Secretary, will not take this laying down. Expect a fight
from the bureaucracy and the brass."

Sources at the White House had a different point of view. In a
circular distributed by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the
rationale for the change was made more clear.
"The President feels that the military has been too indoctrinated by
the old harbingers of hate: nationalism, racism, and classism. By
removing an oath to the American society, the soldiers are less likely
to commit atrocities like those at Abu Ghraib."

"We expect a lot of flak over this," ! the clas sified memo
continues. "But those that would be most against it are those looking
either for attention or control."

The time frame for the changes are unknown. However, it is more
likely that the changes will be made around the July 4th holiday, in
order to dampen any potential backlash. The difference in the oath will
actually only be slight. The main differences will be the new phrasing.
It is expected that the oath to the Constitution will be entirely phased
out within two years. "


Frankly I think this is bogus, but...it never hurts to look into it.



"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

What was it MacArthur called the President?

The Temporary Occupant of the White House?

On Feb 3, 10:00*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:22:06 -0600, nick hull wrote:
In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(

Indeed.
* * Military to Pledge Oath To Obama, Not Constitution
* * Published: Jan 29, 2009
* * Author: Michele Chang
* * Post Date: 2009-01-29 10:38:14

* * Defense Robert Gates is extremely frustrated with orders that the
White House is contemplating. According to sources at the Pentagon,
including all branches of the armed forces, the Obama Administration may
break with a centuries-old tradition.

* * A spokesman for General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that the Obama Administration wants to
have soldiers and officers pledge a loyalty oath directly to the office
of the President, and no longer to the Constitution.

* * "The oath to the Constitution is as old as the document itself." the
spokesman said, "At no time in American history, not even in the Civil
War, did the oath change or the subject of the oath differ. It has
always been to the Constitution."

* * The back-and-forth between the White House and the Defense
Department was expected as President George W. Bush left office.
President Obama has already signed orders to close Guantanamo and to
pull combat troops from Iraq. But, this, say many at the Defense
Department, goes to far.

* * "Technically, we can't talk about it before it becomes official
policy." the spokesman continued. "However, the Defense Department,
including the Secretary, will not take this laying down. Expect a fight
from the bureaucracy and the brass."

* * Sources at the White House had a different point of view. In a
circular distributed by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the
rationale for the change was made more clear.
* * "The President feels that the military has been too indoctrinated by
the old harbingers of hate: nationalism, racism, and classism. By
removing an oath to the American society, the soldiers are less likely
to commit atrocities like those at Abu Ghraib."

* * "We expect a lot of flak over this," ! the clas sified memo
continues. "But those that would be most against it are those looking
either for attention or control."

* * The time frame for the changes are unknown. However, it is more
likely that the changes will be made around the July 4th holiday, in
order to dampen any potential backlash. The difference in the oath will
actually only be slight. The main differences will be the new phrasing.
It is expected that the oath to the Constitution will be entirely phased
out within two years. "

Frankly I think this is bogus, but...it never hurts to look into it.

"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
*nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

LOL...how do you conservatives get any sleep when something *might* be
under the bed?

You lost...get over it and start helping us rebuild the America that
you have damaged.

TMT

On Feb 2, 11:33*pm, Ignoramus32631 ignoramus32...@NOSPAM.
32631.invalid wrote:
On 2009-02-03, DoN. Nichols wrote:





On 2009-02-03, Greg O wrote:
"Ignoramus13011" wrote in message

Agree? Disagree?

Prices on EBay have never made any sense. I bought a Play station game for
my daughter a while back. There were two sellers, offering the same game,
new, unopened, very similar description. The one auction went for close to
$100, but the other game, that bidding ended maybe 1/2 hour after the first,
I bought for $35.

* *Well ... a few years ago, I was collecting tri-mikes (precision
three-point contact internal diameter micrometers), and there were two
auctions running at the same time for the same set (three or four mics,
two setting rings, the extension tubes, and the wrenches, all in a
nicely-fitted wooden box). *Actually -- the poorly described set was a
little more complete, though I forget what was missing from the other.

* *One had lots of wonderful photos and detailed descriptions, the
other had a much less detailed description, and only a couple of photos
-- enough to tell me that it was the same, and that it was what I
wanted.

* *The poorly described one closed a couple of hours before the one
with the wonderful description, and I opted to bid on that
poorly-described one as the bids were *already* significantly higher on
the wonderful one. *IIRC, I got the poorly-described set for about three
hundred less than the wonderfully-described one, and was thankful that
the later one was drawing most of the attention of those who were
interested. *I don't know at this point, but the wonderfully-described
one had the feel of a "Reliable Tools" auction of the period.

* *I really would have expected more competition for the
poorly-described set since there were two hours or so between them to
give people a second chance at the well-described set, but apparently
most were too dazzled by the description on the second set -- so I got
the first set for a very reasonable price. :-)

Some things sell for a lot less than identical things that are better
described or pictured. You told us a good story, I bought a well
working TIG welder for $10, etc.

But that is not what I wanted to point out.

The point that I was making, was that the steam gauge that sold for
$31 was NOT poorly described, it was well photographed and properly
titled and so on. And still it sold for 8 TIMES less than a very
similar gauge, sold by me last summer. So I was comparing apples to
apples.

Here they a

My gauge from last summer closed for $240:

http://yabe.algebra.com/~ichudov/mis...Gauge/ebayhist...

The *gauge that I bought this month for $31:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=250361252136

When I was selling my gauge last summer, I did quite a bit of
research. There is (was) a market for these gauges, mostly among
collectors or well off people who want to have a gauge like that on
the wall of their shop showing air pressure, etc. Some retired people
buy these gauges in poor condition, polish and resell, etc. It was a
real market.

These gauges are not unusual or rare items, but they were well sought
after. Apparently, not any more. The market for them disappeared.

--
* *Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
* * * to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
* * * *from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
* * * * *more readers you will need to find a different means of
* * * * * * * * * * * *posting on Usenet.
* * * * * * * * * *http://improve-usenet.org/- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But they are not identical gauges. They are different manufacturers.
Sure they perform the same function. If someone needed one for say a
correct restoration of an old steam engine only the correct original
would do. That could explain the price difference. Also if someone
collects gauges (I'm sure they are out there) it could be a rarer one.
Take for example wood planes. They all perform the same basic task but
some go for $10000,00 dollars while others you can't get $20.00 for.
Not saying that's why just saying it could.

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:00:41 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:22:06 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(


Indeed.
Military to Pledge Oath To Obama, Not Constitution
Published: Jan 29, 2009
Author: Michele Chang
Post Date: 2009-01-29 10:38:14

Defense Robert Gates is extremely frustrated with orders that the
White House is contemplating. According to sources at the Pentagon,
including all branches of the armed forces, the Obama Administration may
break with a centuries-old tradition.

A spokesman for General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that the Obama Administration wants to
have soldiers and officers pledge a loyalty oath directly to the office
of the President, and no longer to the Constitution.

"The oath to the Constitution is as old as the document itself." the
spokesman said, "At no time in American history, not even in the Civil
War, did the oath change or the subject of the oath differ. It has
always been to the Constitution."

The back-and-forth between the White House and the Defense
Department was expected as President George W. Bush left office.
President Obama has already signed orders to close Guantanamo and to
pull combat troops from Iraq. But, this, say many at the Defense
Department, goes to far.

"Technically, we can't talk about it before it becomes official
policy." the spokesman continued. "However, the Defense Department,
including the Secretary, will not take this laying down. Expect a fight
from the bureaucracy and the brass."

Sources at the White House had a different point of view. In a
circular distributed by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the
rationale for the change was made more clear.
"The President feels that the military has been too indoctrinated by
the old harbingers of hate: nationalism, racism, and classism. By
removing an oath to the American society, the soldiers are less likely
to commit atrocities like those at Abu Ghraib."

"We expect a lot of flak over this," ! the clas sified memo
continues. "But those that would be most against it are those looking
either for attention or control."

The time frame for the changes are unknown. However, it is more
likely that the changes will be made around the July 4th holiday, in
order to dampen any potential backlash. The difference in the oath will
actually only be slight. The main differences will be the new phrasing.
It is expected that the oath to the Constitution will be entirely phased
out within two years. "


Frankly I think this is bogus, but...it never hurts to look into it.


Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:50:28 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:00:41 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:22:06 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(


Indeed.
Military to Pledge Oath To Obama, Not Constitution
Published: Jan 29, 2009
Author: Michele Chang
Post Date: 2009-01-29 10:38:14

Defense Robert Gates is extremely frustrated with orders that the
White House is contemplating. According to sources at the Pentagon,
including all branches of the armed forces, the Obama Administration may
break with a centuries-old tradition.

A spokesman for General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that the Obama Administration wants to
have soldiers and officers pledge a loyalty oath directly to the office
of the President, and no longer to the Constitution.

"The oath to the Constitution is as old as the document itself." the
spokesman said, "At no time in American history, not even in the Civil
War, did the oath change or the subject of the oath differ. It has
always been to the Constitution."

The back-and-forth between the White House and the Defense
Department was expected as President George W. Bush left office.
President Obama has already signed orders to close Guantanamo and to
pull combat troops from Iraq. But, this, say many at the Defense
Department, goes to far.

"Technically, we can't talk about it before it becomes official
policy." the spokesman continued. "However, the Defense Department,
including the Secretary, will not take this laying down. Expect a fight
from the bureaucracy and the brass."

Sources at the White House had a different point of view. In a
circular distributed by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the
rationale for the change was made more clear.
"The President feels that the military has been too indoctrinated by
the old harbingers of hate: nationalism, racism, and classism. By
removing an oath to the American society, the soldiers are less likely
to commit atrocities like those at Abu Ghraib."

"We expect a lot of flak over this," ! the clas sified memo
continues. "But those that would be most against it are those looking
either for attention or control."

The time frame for the changes are unknown. However, it is more
likely that the changes will be made around the July 4th holiday, in
order to dampen any potential backlash. The difference in the oath will
actually only be slight. The main differences will be the new phrasing.
It is expected that the oath to the Constitution will be entirely phased
out within two years. "


Frankly I think this is bogus, but...it never hurts to look into it.


Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr

Behfel ist behfel, nein?

Gunner
"Not so old as to need virgins to excite him,
nor old enough to have the patience to teach one."

Gunner Asch wrote:

Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr

Behfel ist behfel, nein?


Godwin, Damit!

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 11:17:21 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:50:28 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:00:41 -0800
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:22:06 -0600, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
cavelamb wrote:

Good rant, Gunner, but it's not the Commie army I'm worried about
so much as out own...

Not much difference as long as the army follows a politician instead of
the Constitution ;(


Indeed.
Military to Pledge Oath To Obama, Not Constitution
Published: Jan 29, 2009
Author: Michele Chang
Post Date: 2009-01-29 10:38:14

Defense Robert Gates is extremely frustrated with orders that the
White House is contemplating. According to sources at the Pentagon,
including all branches of the armed forces, the Obama Administration may
break with a centuries-old tradition.

A spokesman for General James Cartwright, the Vice Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, states that the Obama Administration wants to
have soldiers and officers pledge a loyalty oath directly to the office
of the President, and no longer to the Constitution.

"The oath to the Constitution is as old as the document itself." the
spokesman said, "At no time in American history, not even in the Civil
War, did the oath change or the subject of the oath differ. It has
always been to the Constitution."

The back-and-forth between the White House and the Defense
Department was expected as President George W. Bush left office.
President Obama has already signed orders to close Guantanamo and to
pull combat troops from Iraq. But, this, say many at the Defense
Department, goes to far.

"Technically, we can't talk about it before it becomes official
policy." the spokesman continued. "However, the Defense Department,
including the Secretary, will not take this laying down. Expect a fight
from the bureaucracy and the brass."

Sources at the White House had a different point of view. In a
circular distributed by White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, the
rationale for the change was made more clear.
"The President feels that the military has been too indoctrinated by
the old harbingers of hate: nationalism, racism, and classism. By
removing an oath to the American society, the soldiers are less likely
to commit atrocities like those at Abu Ghraib."

"We expect a lot of flak over this," ! the clas sified memo
continues. "But those that would be most against it are those looking
either for attention or control."

The time frame for the changes are unknown. However, it is more
likely that the changes will be made around the July 4th holiday, in
order to dampen any potential backlash. The difference in the oath will
actually only be slight. The main differences will be the new phrasing.
It is expected that the oath to the Constitution will be entirely phased
out within two years. "


Frankly I think this is bogus, but...it never hurts to look into it.


Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr

Behfel ist behfel, nein?

Ja. the problem is that in this country, there isn't the same
"reverence" put on oaths as their were in the old country. One of the
underplayed points of Valkyrie is that COL Claus Philipp Maria Schenk
Graf von Stauffenberg is of an old Aristocratic Family, and a deeply
Catholic one at that. They take such things seriously. Still do.
I'm not so sure about American Protestants :-)

tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that cavelamb
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:32:06 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:

Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr

Behfel ist behfel, nein?


Godwin, Damit!

Sure you don't mean "God wins!"?


pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

pyotr filipivich wrote:
I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that cavelamb
wrote on Tue, 03 Feb 2009 13:32:06 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Gunner Asch wrote:
Sounds like a fictional updating of the events of Aug 2, 1934,
when the German military was required to take an oath of loyalty to
Adolf Hitler, personally, instead of to the Government or Nation.
(That was a contributing factor to why Valkyrie wasn't implemented
until 1944 - it took that long for people who took their oaths
seriously to overcome their reluctance.)

Anyway, I doubt that such a thing would occur here. On the other
hand, I'm sure a lot of Germans in 1934 never expected things to go
the way they eventually did.

Bozhimoi.


pyotr
Behfel ist behfel, nein?

Godwin, Damit!

Sure you don't mean "God wins!"?

Not at the moment...
(although He usually does - it's that whole Supreme Being thing)

No, I meant Godwin...
As in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law