My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be rare.
Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert in this
area.

Karl

Karl Townsend wrote:
My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a
parking lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that
has higher value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is
supposed to be rare. Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on
determining value?
I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert
in this area.

Karl

Nice ones in local gun shops here are going for over 1500 bucks . And up ,
way up .
--
Snag
My tastes are somewhat cheaper ...

"Karl Townsend" wrote in
anews.com:

My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a
parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be
rare. Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining
value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert
in this area.

Karl






Beware the ATF: the "keyword" is "noise suppressor".

While the AR-15 is a semi-auto, the M-16 that was derived it is a selective
fire [ATF Type 3 license required] and noise suppressors [aka silencers -
Type 3 license required] can each be used in an ATF "sting".


--
I used to be an anarchist but had to give it up: _far_ too many rules.

In article s.com, "Karl Townsend" wrote:
My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be rare.
Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert in this
area.

The prices are shooting up fast after the election. There are so many
variables it's hard to say how to check it out with at least a list of
who made the upper & lower receivers & the barrel, or a photo.

Also, if it is a true "noise suppressor" (i.e. silencer), there are all
sorts of legal issues with owning or selling one. If it's a flash hider
(more likely), then it's mostly window dressing for a civilian rifle.

The best place to get real info is http://www.ar15.com, but you will need
to register & pay a small fee to post.

It's very easy to say an AR15 is "accurized", but it's hard to
prove. I've built a couple, and all the accuracy is in little details
that aren't obviously labeled.

Doug White

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:10:55 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:



It's very easy to say an AR15 is "accurized", but it's hard to
prove.

Easy to prove. Take to 100 yd range with seller-recommended ammo, see
how it groups. 5-shot groups of under 1" could be regarded as
accurate -- though many production rifles can now shoot 1/2" groups
right out of the box for $600 and less.

cash in a parking lot... are you kidding... what a great way to buy a STOLEN
GUN!!!!
If you do buy it,, offer half of what he is asking.... Also, while he is
still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd meet
up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

if he is honest, no issue,, but if pd shows and the guy takes off...
well....you know the answer to the serial number question.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 16:10:55 GMT, (Doug White)
wrote:



It's very easy to say an AR15 is "accurized", but it's hard to
prove.

Easy to prove. Take to 100 yd range with seller-recommended ammo, see
how it groups. 5-shot groups of under 1" could be regarded as
accurate -- though many production rifles can now shoot 1/2" groups
right out of the box for $600 and less.

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:04:52 -0700, Bob in Phx wrote:

cash in a parking lot... are you kidding... what a great way to buy a
STOLEN GUN!!!!
If you do buy it,, offer half of what he is asking.... Also, while he is
still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the
serial number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and
have pd meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

if he is honest, no issue,, but if pd shows and the guy takes off...
well....you know the answer to the serial number question.


I read the original post and thought "hmm. sounds stolen to me".

Second to walking away, this sounds like the best solution. At least
depending on how responsive the local PD is (and whether they'll feel
envious about the gun...).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

Karl

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:33:55 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:



still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

The police may have serial numbers of stolen guns if the rightful
owner provided them after the theft.

A bone-fide seller would have a bill of sale with serial number, and
this can be checked with the dealer that sold it.

Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.

"Karl Townsend" writes:

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

Depends on where you are. Where I live, handguns aren't registered
either; some places, handguns and rifles are both registered.

But whether registered or not, the PD should be able to verify whether
it's been reported stolen.

Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but not
that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more accurate
semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy to subside and go
buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a gun I purchased. Started
by working all summer at 12 to buy a Remington 870. Anyway, I'd rather have
quality than price.

karl

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...


Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but not
that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more accurate
semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy to subside and
go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a gun I purchased.
Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a Remington 870. Anyway, I'd
rather have quality than price.

karl



Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Buerste wrote:
"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...


Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in
.223 is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and
one other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the
box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but
not that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more
accurate semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy
to subside and go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a
gun I purchased. Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a
Remington 870. Anyway, I'd rather have quality than price.

karl



Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Ruger 77 in .270 with 6-24x . Better sectional density and ballistic
coefficient than the .22 cals and shoots damn near as flat . Reach out and
touch ...
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
. ..
Buerste wrote:
"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...


Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in
.223 is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and
one other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the
box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but
not that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more
accurate semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy
to subside and go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a
gun I purchased. Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a
Remington 870. Anyway, I'd rather have quality than price.

karl



Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Ruger 77 in .270 with 6-24x . Better sectional density and ballistic
coefficient than the .22 cals and shoots damn near as flat . Reach out
and touch ...
--
Snag
'90 Ultra "Strider"
'39 WLDD "Popcycle"
Buncha cars and a truck


And, the Swift tends to burn out barrels. Pink-misters, all. I would have
recommended .240 Gibbs but it has too many PIAs attached. Never again a
cartridge I can't but off a shelf!

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:29:40 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

Depends on where you are. Where I live, handguns aren't registered
either; some places, handguns and rifles are both registered.

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

Don Foreman writes:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:29:40 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

Depends on where you are. Where I live, handguns aren't registered
either; some places, handguns and rifles are both registered.

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

Legally, they are only to be kept in the gun store. As a practical
matter, "Operation Forward Trace" was used to basically create exactly
the sort of database I'm inferring you're concerned about. See
http://www.gunowners.org/op9609.htm (I don't know the history of
Operation Forward Trace in the years since -- I'd be delighted to hear
a statement that it has been discontinued).

Regardless, if you don't buy from an FFL dealer, the form isn't
completed.

Don Foreman wrote:

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

The forms are kept at the dealers place until that dealer goes out of business and then
the records are supposed to be shipped to the ATF. Of course when the ATF gets them, they
have people working to computerize the records.


Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:29:40 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...
This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.
Depends on where you are. Where I live, handguns aren't registered
either; some places, handguns and rifles are both registered.

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

They are kept by the dealer until he gives up his license and he sends
his records to the BATFE.

David

Wes wrote:
Don Foreman wrote:

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

The forms are kept at the dealers place until that dealer goes out of business and then
the records are supposed to be shipped to the ATF. Of course when the ATF gets them, they
have people working to computerize the records.


Wes

By law, the BATFE is not allowed to computerize the records. They do
it anyway, Congress cuts their funding by the amount they spent,
everybody's happy but the database still exists. The only problem is
the large number of records that have yet to be entered.

David

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
tanews.com...


Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but not
that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more accurate
semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy to subside and
go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a gun I purchased.
Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a Remington 870. Anyway, I'd
rather have quality than price.

karl



Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Better the new heavy barreled Savages. If ammo supply is a concern in
the future..get it in .223. The above two cartridges are far
superior..but a case of them wont ever 'fall off the back of a deuce
and a half"

If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Gunner

Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...

Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.
I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but not
that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more accurate
semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy to subside and
go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a gun I purchased.
Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a Remington 870. Anyway, I'd
rather have quality than price.

karl


Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Better the new heavy barreled Savages. If ammo supply is a concern in
the future..get it in .223. The above two cartridges are far
superior..but a case of them wont ever 'fall off the back of a deuce
and a half"

If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Gunner

You mean other than the fact that you have two different lens groups
moving fore and aft as you change the power, that will independently
(and generally differently from run to run) wiggle more and less
off-axis as they do?

"Precision" and "zoom" may go together, but only if you have a huge pile
of money to keep them glued up tight.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 14:33:55 -0600, "Karl Townsend"
wrote:


still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...
This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

The police may have serial numbers of stolen guns if the rightful
owner provided them after the theft.

A bone-fide seller would have a bill of sale with serial number, and
this can be checked with the dealer that sold it.

I'm not tuned into gun-buying, but that seems not entirely right -- I
could see a perfectly legitimate sale of a used gun happening without a
bill of sale being exchanged. Maybe not _smart_, but _legitimate_.

I mean, a _car_ you need the title or bill of sale to satisfy the state
when you go to get title & registration -- but if the state doesn't
track gun titles then I don't see that being an issue.

But I could see a wise buyer wanting to get a bill-o-sale on a gun to
avoid problems down the road.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:
If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

I would be happy to listen. Fewer moving parts? Anything else?

--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/

"Gunner" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
ctanews.com...


Value check: one can get a brand-new Ruger mini-14 (semiauto) rifle
in .223 for under $600. The CZ527 American bolt-action rifle in .223
is under $500 new if you shop, and the two I know of (mine and one
other) deliver groups under 3/4" (100 yd) right out of the box.

I bought a Mini 14 when slick Willie moved in. Nice enough rifle but not
that accurate. Now that Obama is moving in, I'd like a more accurate
semi-auto. I think I'll wait for the current buying frenzy to subside
and
go buy new at a local shop. I have yet to ever sell a gun I purchased.
Started by working all summer at 12 to buy a Remington 870. Anyway, I'd
rather have quality than price.

karl



Remington 700 in .220 Swift or .22-250 and great optics.

Better the new heavy barreled Savages. If ammo supply is a concern in
the future..get it in .223. The above two cartridges are far
superior..but a case of them wont ever 'fall off the back of a deuce
and a half"

If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Gunner

Fixed optics are simpler with no moving parts to fail...I guess. The Savage
would do just fine! I'm not a big fan of .223 although I own a couple,
great for plinking and cheap but I don't equate long distance precision with
that cartridge but I'm sure some people do. I sold my Gibbs a while ago and
haven't replaced it, I haven't felt the need or have the place to practice.
I thought of building a "Black Rifle" but...WHY? I'd be more inclined to a
S&W 500.

Karl Townsend wrote:
My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be rare.
Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert in this
area.

I know gun preferences are like cars and opinions,
but if he wants a military semi auto, suggest that
he takes a look at an M1A. You can get a new Springfield
Armory M1A for about what he'll pay for the AR, and
he will have a much more useful rifle without attracting
the "assault weapon" attention.

Karl Townsend wrote:
My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be rare.
Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert in this
area.

A face-to-face sale is entirely legal in most states, or any state I'd
ever want to live in. The buyer and seller have to reside in the same
state as the transaction. If you don't know the other party, I'd ask
them to bring a photocopy of their state driver's license. Barring that,
if they have a concealed handgun license, ask to see it. Keep emails etc
about the transaction. Print them and file them.

But your later post about waiting is correct. the current feeding frenzy
is the result of the ignorant suddenly waking up and realizing
"everyone in the US has an AR except me, and Obama is about to cut me off".
ARs and Aks will be available for some time to come. Neither is
worth the prices some vendors are chargin lately.

Best bet right now is to buy a stripped lower receiver. It's the only
regulated part. these are going for over $125 most places, but there are
deals. There is a group buy going on 1919M4.com for $78 + shipping.

http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthr...threadid=19928

Buy several, it's a good investment. Then you can build over time to
the configuration you want, after you know enough about them to decide that.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:16:31 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:



A bone-fide seller would have a bill of sale with serial number, and
this can be checked with the dealer that sold it.

I'm not tuned into gun-buying, but that seems not entirely right -- I
could see a perfectly legitimate sale of a used gun happening without a
bill of sale being exchanged. Maybe not _smart_, but _legitimate_.

You're right, a legit owner might not have a bill of sale. I'd be wary
of buying from such a seller.

I wasnt talking about registering the gun. I dont know what the laws in the
state that the OP is in. I was talking about the possibility (very high in
my opinion) that this gun was stolen. If the Owner of the gun reported it
stolen, then the Police will be able to trace the serial numbers. If its not
stolen then no big deal, unless there are laws about selling in the OP's
state or town.


"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
anews.com...


still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...

This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered?
I'm certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure
its not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.

Karl

RB wrote:
Karl Townsend wrote:
My son met a guy that needs $. He want to sell an AR15. Cash in a parking
lot kind of deal. He claims its an accurized (sp) unit that has higher
value. Comes with a military noise suppressor that is supposed to be rare.
Anybody have advice, web sites to read etc. on determining value?

I've seen one on TV but never touched one. And not much of an expert in this
area.

A face-to-face sale is entirely legal in most states, or any state I'd
ever want to live in. The buyer and seller have to reside in the same
state as the transaction. If you don't know the other party, I'd ask
them to bring a photocopy of their state driver's license. Barring that,
if they have a concealed handgun license, ask to see it. Keep emails etc
about the transaction. Print them and file them.

But your later post about waiting is correct. the current feeding frenzy
is the result of the ignorant suddenly waking up and realizing
"everyone in the US has an AR except me, and Obama is about to cut me off".
ARs and Aks will be available for some time to come. Neither is
worth the prices some vendors are chargin lately.

Best bet right now is to buy a stripped lower receiver. It's the only
regulated part. these are going for over $125 most places, but there are
deals. There is a group buy going on 1919M4.com for $78 + shipping.

http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthr...threadid=19928

Buy several, it's a good investment. Then you can build over time to
the configuration you want, after you know enough about them to decide that.

That's good advice for people worried about another ban and wanting to not
jump all the way in now.

Just keep in mind that a lower receiver is technically a firearm and
regulated as such, so even though it's just a chunk of metal, in the eyes
of the law, it's the same as a completed and functional gun. If you need
to keep records on sales/transfers (depending on where you live) for
firearms, they apply to this component, but not the other parts.

Don Foreman wrote:


A bone-fide seller would have a bill of sale with serial number, and
this can be checked with the dealer that sold it.

I'm not tuned into gun-buying, but that seems not entirely right -- I
could see a perfectly legitimate sale of a used gun happening without a
bill of sale being exchanged. Maybe not _smart_, but _legitimate_.

You're right, a legit owner might not have a bill of sale. I'd be wary
of buying from such a seller.

I have many firearms that I don't have the sales receipts for. After 5 - 30 years or so,
that stuff gets lost.

Wes

"David R.Birch" wrote:

By law, the BATFE is not allowed to computerize the records. They do
it anyway, Congress cuts their funding by the amount they spent,
everybody's happy but the database still exists. The only problem is
the large number of records that have yet to be entered.


Just like the clinonista's kept instant check data past the legal date for QA purposes.

Wes

RB wrote:

Best bet right now is to buy a stripped lower receiver. It's the only
regulated part. these are going for over $125 most places, but there are
deals. There is a group buy going on 1919M4.com for $78 + shipping.

http://www.1919a4.com/forums/showthr...threadid=19928

Buy several, it's a good investment. Then you can build over time to
the configuration you want, after you know enough about them to decide that.


IIRC, the earlier black rifle ban had language stating the firearm had to be fully
assembled before the date of enactment.

Wes

On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:

[ ... ]

If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Could it be that the position of the cross-hairs shifts relative
to the target when the focal length is changed, so you have to zero it
at one focal length? (Or even worse -- the sliding components which
implement the zoom may shift with recoil, so even if you stay at a given
zoom point the cross hair point will shift.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Don Foreman wrote:
On Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:16:31 -0800, Tim Wescott
wrote:


A bone-fide seller would have a bill of sale with serial number, and
this can be checked with the dealer that sold it.

I'm not tuned into gun-buying, but that seems not entirely right -- I
could see a perfectly legitimate sale of a used gun happening without a
bill of sale being exchanged. Maybe not _smart_, but _legitimate_.

You're right, a legit owner might not have a bill of sale. I'd be wary
of buying from such a seller.

It happens every day, and it's perfectly legal.
A bill of sale is a rare thing in my experience.
Just look at their driver's license, or preferable a CHL.
If they are over 21 and live in your state, and the other party does not
look or act like a criminal, you're in good shape.

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "David R.Birch"
wrote on Mon, 17 Nov 2008 09:06:45 -0600 in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
Don Foreman wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:29:40 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
wrote:

"Karl Townsend" writes:

still there, either fake a phone call to the local pd to check the serial
number, see what the "seller" does, or call ahead of time and have pd
meet up with you there... they can run the serial right away...
This is news to me. I knew they did handguns. Are rifles now registered? I'm
certain none of the ones I presently own are. "The kid" is pretty sure its
not hot or i wouldn't touch it. But, i think I'll pass on this deal.
Depends on where you are. Where I live, handguns aren't registered
either; some places, handguns and rifles are both registered.

I wonder if that's really true. If you buy from a FFL dealer, ATF
form 4473 is completed for rifles as well as handguns, and the
make,model and SN are on this form. These forms are kept somewhere.

They are kept by the dealer until he gives up his license and he sends
his records to the BATFE.

At which point the BATF will enter them into their illegal
database. Again.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "DoN. Nichols"
wrote on 17 Nov 2008 22:45:02 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:
On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:

[ ... ]

If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Could it be that the position of the cross-hairs shifts relative
to the target when the focal length is changed, so you have to zero it
at one focal length? (Or even worse -- the sliding components which
implement the zoom may shift with recoil, so even if you stay at a given
zoom point the cross hair point will shift.

So far, all good answers.

Now, think about this. With a variable scope, when you get your
sight picture, how "far away" is the target? Well, that all depends
on what power the scope is set at. E.G., if it is set at 9x and
you're thinking "3x" - "Dang that's close up!", and miss accordingly.
It has been my experience that getting everything "right" for a
shot (cheek weld, eye relief, pulse, breathing, tension on trigger,
site picture, etc) is hard enough without adding the variable of
movable optics. At east, that is my experience. But I do love having
the variable scope to double as a "spotting scope" for post shot
target examination.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 23:03:01 -0500, "Buerste" wrote:


[ ... ]


If "extreme range personel interdiction" is more of a primary
concern....get a heavy barreled Savage in .308, and stick on a decent
fixed power scope, somewhere between 8x and 10x.

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.


Could it be that the position of the cross-hairs shifts relative
to the target when the focal length is changed, so you have to zero it
at one focal length? (Or even worse -- the sliding components which
implement the zoom may shift with recoil, so even if you stay at a given
zoom point the cross hair point will shift.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Absolutely correct, DoN.

But it can be correct in software!

What the heck, I guess I can publish some of it now?

Some notes from an early development project.

Note the hysteresis diagram on the 4th page down...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-1/


--

Richard

(remove the X to email)

On 2008-11-18, pyotr filipivich wrote:
I skipped the meeting, but the Memos showed that "DoN. Nichols"
wrote on 17 Nov 2008 22:45:02 GMT in
rec.crafts.metalworking :
On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:

[ ... ]

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

Could it be that the position of the cross-hairs shifts relative
to the target when the focal length is changed, so you have to zero it
at one focal length? (Or even worse -- the sliding components which
implement the zoom may shift with recoil, so even if you stay at a given
zoom point the cross hair point will shift.

So far, all good answers.

Now, think about this. With a variable scope, when you get your
sight picture, how "far away" is the target? Well, that all depends
on what power the scope is set at. E.G., if it is set at 9x and
you're thinking "3x" - "Dang that's close up!", and miss accordingly.

Intersting -- and I had not even thought of that. I would
expect the magnification to become obvious during the moment of shifting
from direct view to view through the scope. But I guess that in trying
to remember everything else you mentioned, you could overlook that.

It has been my experience that getting everything "right" for a
shot (cheek weld, eye relief, pulse, breathing, tension on trigger,
site picture, etc) is hard enough without adding the variable of
movable optics.

[ ... ]

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2008-11-18, cavelamb himself wrote:
DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2008-11-17, Gunner wrote:

[ ... ]

If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.

[ ... ]

Could it be that the position of the cross-hairs shifts relative
to the target when the focal length is changed, so you have to zero it
at one focal length? (Or even worse -- the sliding components which
implement the zoom may shift with recoil, so even if you stay at a given
zoom point the cross hair point will shift.

Enjoy,
DoN.


Absolutely correct, DoN.

But it can be correct in software!

The predictable parts like the shift in point as you zoom -- but
I'm not sure about the shift resulting from recoil -- in the absence of
the alternate boresighted sensors (visible, IR, and intensified/near-IR)
which could be checked against each other.)

What the heck, I guess I can publish some of it now?

I forget how long it takes for something to be automatically
declassified. I guess that the 80186 and the Z80 sort of date it. :-)

Some notes from an early development project.

Note the hysteresis diagram on the 4th page down...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-1/

Hmm --- 2-1/2 generation image intensifier?

1st generation was one up to three cascaded intensifier tubes
with electrostatic lenses. Each stage inverted the image, and the
objective lens also inverted so you wound up right side up at the
eyepiece with a three-stage intensifier..

2nd generation was single stage with a microchannel amplifier
plate and proximity focus.

Not sure what the 2-1/2 gen would have been. Maybe a 2nd gen
intensifier married to a videcon?

My memories come from the Army Night Vision Labs. Yours from a
contractor perhaps?

Enjoy,
DoN

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:


If anyone wants to know why most specialists prefer fixed power
optics, Id be happy to expound.


The predictable parts like the shift in point as you zoom -- but
I'm not sure about the shift resulting from recoil -- in the absence of
the alternate boresighted sensors (visible, IR, and intensified/near-IR)
which could be checked against each other.)

The gun mount was quite interesting.
Single heavy piece of fiberglass "U" shaped.
Quite "soft" as far as recoil goes.
But repositioned dead on.
And, of course, the cameras were not attached to the gun mount.

We had to hand calibrate every lens - with the motors and gearboxes
used. Burned the parameters into an eprom for that lens.

But that was Star Wars stuff at the time.



What the heck, I guess I can publish some of it now?


I forget how long it takes for something to be automatically
declassified. I guess that the 80186 and the Z80 sort of date it. :-)


Some notes from an early development project.

Note the hysteresis diagram on the 4th page down...

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-1/


Hmm --- 2-1/2 generation image intensifier?

1st generation was one up to three cascaded intensifier tubes
with electrostatic lenses. Each stage inverted the image, and the
objective lens also inverted so you wound up right side up at the
eyepiece with a three-stage intensifier..

2nd generation was single stage with a microchannel amplifier
plate and proximity focus.

Not sure what the 2-1/2 gen would have been. Maybe a 2nd gen
intensifier married to a videcon?


You Swag well, DoN. Right on the money.


My memories come from the Army Night Vision Labs. Yours from a
contractor perhaps?


Yeah. We made the things.

It was one of the funner places I worked.



Enjoy,
DoN



--

Richard

(remove the X to email)