On Jul 17, 7:48 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Hi folks,

Some of you may remember that about a year ago you gave me some advice
about repairing a leak in my Fordson Super Major tractor radiator. It's
a long story, but I only just got round to having a go.

The filler cap isn't on top of the radiator. It's on the end of a
horizontal pipe about six inches long which protrudes from the back of
the radiator. Where the horizontal pipe is joined to the radiator there
was a leak on the underside. It had been badly repaired by dumping lots
of soft solder on the joint in the past.

I drained the radiator, took it out and laid it flat on the workbench. I
put some wet rags around the top of the tubes to protect them from the
heat. I used a medium sized burner on my Sievert propane torch, and
began to gently heat the joint. I applied some Fry's "Powerflo" flux
with a brush. The solder started to melt, and I flicked it off with the
brush.

All very well and good, but there was a lot of solder there. I kept
flicking it off. The gap got larger. After a minute or so it looked like
I'd cleaned it all out, so I started wiggling the pipe. I wanted to
disassemble the joint, as it was filthy. It wouldn't come out. More
heat, more wiggling. At this point disaster struck. I hadn't realised
that the pipe was in fact made from two pieces of pressed brass sheet
soldered together. The melting point of this solder must have been the
same, as it popped open along the side seams.

I switched off the torch and starting thinking about what to do next. At
this point I noticed that the pool of excess solder on the bench had
turned into the shape of Pac-Man, who appeared to be laughing at me. You
can see the solder Pac-Man he

http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/pac-man.jpg

Pac-Man, you cheeky blob, I am going get revenge for this!

I looked at the joint for the few minutes. I noticed something which I
had not seen earlier. There were two rivets under the grime on the top
surface of the radiator holding the joint together, which was why it
wouldn't come apart. I should have seen those earlier. I should probably
also have figured out, from having visited a car radiator factory in the
past, that these things are soldered in ovens when they are ultra clean,
not with a propane torch in a shed.

I gave the joint a good clean with a wire brush, held it all together
with some G-cramps, and had a go at soldering it back together. It
wouldn't work. The gap was too large (well over 1/16") and most of the
solder fell inside the radiator. That which didn't was only wetting the
metal in patches, despite an abundance of flux. Perhaps the gap was
bigger than it should have been. Maybe this explained the cracked solder
and the leak, or maybe it happened while I was wiggling the pipe.

At this point I gave up. I guess I could have drilled out the rivets and
taken the joint apart to clean it, but it was filthy and looked like an
impossible job to get it back together.

I wish I had seen the rivets beforehand. I guess the moral is that you
need to clean and inspect a job really throughly, and avoid making
assumptions. As one of my schoolteachers used to say, assume makes an
ASS out of U and ME. Even if you don't often screw up, it's still
annoying when you do. Perhaps even more annoying. We live and learn, I
guess.

On the plus side, I didn't ruin a good radiator. It was a fairly crappy
radiator anyway. And it was interesting to see that the wet rags kept
the tube and manifold joints cool enough to keep them from melting
(perhaps they are also made with a higher melting point solder). To be
honest, I'm not sure I would have been able to fix the joint even if I'd
seen the rivets first. There was such a heavy layer of grease and oxides
on the metal.

So it looks like I'm going to have to buy a new radiator. Damn. Or I
could look for a second hand one, but I'm not sure second hand radiators
are worth the effort. Any thoughts?

Radiators are clearly not easy to fix :-(.

Best wishes,

Chris



A little brass sheet-stock on the inside, held in place with brass
rivets? Or even brass screws?

I have to confess, I only hit this post because of the 'disater'
heading, but I think with a little ingenuity you can get it!


Dave

Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

i

On Jul 17, 8:14 pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
wrote:
A little brass sheet-stock on the inside, held in place with brass
rivets? Or even brass screws?

I had this idea. Hadn't had the idea of holding the sheet in place with
rivets or the screws, though. I have some copper sheet, but it's not
thick enough to fill the gap in one go. The gap is over 1/16" wide.

I am doubtful that the repair is possible without two different solders
which melt at different temperatures. It's also riveted together and
rather dirty.

My gut reaction is that even though I really don't want to buy a new
radiator (fortunately they are available, but how good they are I don't
know), this one probably isn't worth the effort of trying to fix,
especially when I don't know how long it's going to last

Probably I will keep the cowl and give the radiator to the neighbour's
grandson for scrap. Someone will be pleased with it that way :-).

Chris


A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...


Dave

Hi folks,

Some of you may remember that about a year ago you gave me some advice
about repairing a leak in my Fordson Super Major tractor radiator. It's
a long story, but I only just got round to having a go.

The filler cap isn't on top of the radiator. It's on the end of a
horizontal pipe about six inches long which protrudes from the back of
the radiator. Where the horizontal pipe is joined to the radiator there
was a leak on the underside. It had been badly repaired by dumping lots
of soft solder on the joint in the past.

I drained the radiator, took it out and laid it flat on the workbench. I
put some wet rags around the top of the tubes to protect them from the
heat. I used a medium sized burner on my Sievert propane torch, and
began to gently heat the joint. I applied some Fry's "Powerflo" flux
with a brush. The solder started to melt, and I flicked it off with the
brush.

All very well and good, but there was a lot of solder there. I kept
flicking it off. The gap got larger. After a minute or so it looked like
I'd cleaned it all out, so I started wiggling the pipe. I wanted to
disassemble the joint, as it was filthy. It wouldn't come out. More
heat, more wiggling. At this point disaster struck. I hadn't realised
that the pipe was in fact made from two pieces of pressed brass sheet
soldered together. The melting point of this solder must have been the
same, as it popped open along the side seams.

I switched off the torch and starting thinking about what to do next. At
this point I noticed that the pool of excess solder on the bench had
turned into the shape of Pac-Man, who appeared to be laughing at me. You
can see the solder Pac-Man he

http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/pac-man.jpg

Pac-Man, you cheeky blob, I am going get revenge for this!

I looked at the joint for the few minutes. I noticed something which I
had not seen earlier. There were two rivets under the grime on the top
surface of the radiator holding the joint together, which was why it
wouldn't come apart. I should have seen those earlier. I should probably
also have figured out, from having visited a car radiator factory in the
past, that these things are soldered in ovens when they are ultra clean,
not with a propane torch in a shed.

I gave the joint a good clean with a wire brush, held it all together
with some G-cramps, and had a go at soldering it back together. It
wouldn't work. The gap was too large (well over 1/16") and most of the
solder fell inside the radiator. That which didn't was only wetting the
metal in patches, despite an abundance of flux. Perhaps the gap was
bigger than it should have been. Maybe this explained the cracked solder
and the leak, or maybe it happened while I was wiggling the pipe.

At this point I gave up. I guess I could have drilled out the rivets and
taken the joint apart to clean it, but it was filthy and looked like an
impossible job to get it back together.

I wish I had seen the rivets beforehand. I guess the moral is that you
need to clean and inspect a job really throughly, and avoid making
assumptions. As one of my schoolteachers used to say, assume makes an
ASS out of U and ME. Even if you don't often screw up, it's still
annoying when you do. Perhaps even more annoying. We live and learn, I
guess.

On the plus side, I didn't ruin a good radiator. It was a fairly crappy
radiator anyway. And it was interesting to see that the wet rags kept
the tube and manifold joints cool enough to keep them from melting
(perhaps they are also made with a higher melting point solder). To be
honest, I'm not sure I would have been able to fix the joint even if I'd
seen the rivets first. There was such a heavy layer of grease and oxides
on the metal.

So it looks like I'm going to have to buy a new radiator. Damn. Or I
could look for a second hand one, but I'm not sure second hand radiators
are worth the effort. Any thoughts?

Radiators are clearly not easy to fix :-(.

Best wishes,

Chris

wrote:

A little brass sheet-stock on the inside, held in place with brass
rivets? Or even brass screws?

I had this idea. Hadn't had the idea of holding the sheet in place with
rivets or the screws, though. I have some copper sheet, but it's not
thick enough to fill the gap in one go. The gap is over 1/16" wide.

I am doubtful that the repair is possible without two different solders
which melt at different temperatures. It's also riveted together and
rather dirty.

My gut reaction is that even though I really don't want to buy a new
radiator (fortunately they are available, but how good they are I don't
know), this one probably isn't worth the effort of trying to fix,
especially when I don't know how long it's going to last

Probably I will keep the cowl and give the radiator to the neighbour's
grandson for scrap. Someone will be pleased with it that way :-).

Chris

Ignoramus20788 wrote:
Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

I asked around, but couldn't find anyone locally. Everyone just said
chuck it and buy a new one. Maybe radiator shops are an American thing?

At least I tried :-).

Chris

Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ignoramus20788 wrote:
Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

I asked around, but couldn't find anyone locally. Everyone just said
chuck it and buy a new one. Maybe radiator shops are an American thing?

At least I tried :-).

Chris

Possibly a US thing, but if you can find one they sure save a lot of
hassles. I had a radiator on an old backhoe with several leaks, etc.
that I took to a local radiator shop. They returned it repaired,
pressure tested and spotlessly re-blacked in a day for like $80. Come to
think of it, I believe that $80 also covered the hydraulic oil cooler
too. Having the right skills, tools and materials makes all the
difference.

wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...

I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...

I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

I think this is easier than you think it is

1. clean joint well. use files, sandpaper, wire brush, whatever you can to
get it clean
2. clean an area about 1/2 inch around it also - get it really really clean.
And on the tube too
3. tin the areas you just cleaned - use lots of flux, get a nice layer of
solder on all the cleaned surfaces
4. make an L shape out of copper and heat it red hot, let it cool (anneals
it), wrap it around the joint where the tube joins the radiator
5. remove it and tin it inside and out
6. put it back and pull it tight, heat and solder the L, at both edges
7. finsh off any open seams on the tube
8. drink warm beer and celibrate...



** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

William Noble wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...
I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

I think this is easier than you think it is

1. clean joint well. use files, sandpaper, wire brush, whatever you can to
get it clean
2. clean an area about 1/2 inch around it also - get it really really clean.
And on the tube too
3. tin the areas you just cleaned - use lots of flux, get a nice layer of
solder on all the cleaned surfaces
4. make an L shape out of copper and heat it red hot, let it cool (anneals
it), wrap it around the joint where the tube joins the radiator
5. remove it and tin it inside and out
6. put it back and pull it tight, heat and solder the L, at both edges
7. finsh off any open seams on the tube
8. drink warm beer and celibrate...


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Note: "clean" means "looks like virgin metal and has nothing oily at
all on it". I have had minutes-old fingerprints fail to tin at times
like this -- I do all my cleaning/soldering wearing disposable rubber
gloves. If I can I use fine sandpaper to make absolutely sure that I've
gotten through all the oxide and crud, and I tin _soon_.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...

I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

Others have pretty well covered the basics. Don't give up yet. A piece of
copper wire formed into a ring can bridge the gap around the pipe. Do not
use 60/40 or 63/37 solder if you can help it. Radiator shops generally would
only use these for tinning the surfaces. The 63/37 goes directly from solid
to liquid and the 60/40 is almost the same. If you get some 50/50 or 40/60
it will have a pasty or mushy state that is easier to control. Warm up the
entire area but do not try to melt all the solder at once. Using a soldering
iron (or copper) is easiest but a little practice with a small torch will
enable you to solder a small part of the area without the rest coming
unsoldered. It just takes a little practice to get the hang of it.

(One of my current projects is repairing the severely broken, welded,
reinforced, and rebroken frame rails on a 1962 Super Major with Ford 712
Loader and 723 backhoe.)

Don Young

I'm with Iggy. If you can find the suitable repair shop, they can do
this easily, cheaply, and well.

As an aside, there has been a periodic listing for a full set of
radiator shop tools and tanks for a very reasonable price in the local
craigslist. The non repairable aluminum radiators in the late model
vehicles must be taking a toll.

Christopher Tidy wrote:
Ignoramus20788 wrote:
Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

I asked around, but couldn't find anyone locally. Everyone just said
chuck it and buy a new one. Maybe radiator shops are an American thing?

At least I tried :-).

Chris

What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.

Tim Wescott wrote:
William Noble wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...
I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

I think this is easier than you think it is

1. clean joint well. use files, sandpaper, wire brush, whatever you
can to get it clean
2. clean an area about 1/2 inch around it also - get it really really
clean. And on the tube too
3. tin the areas you just cleaned - use lots of flux, get a nice layer
of solder on all the cleaned surfaces
4. make an L shape out of copper and heat it red hot, let it cool
(anneals it), wrap it around the joint where the tube joins the radiator
5. remove it and tin it inside and out
6. put it back and pull it tight, heat and solder the L, at both edges
7. finsh off any open seams on the tube
8. drink warm beer and celibrate...


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Note: "clean" means "looks like virgin metal and has nothing oily at
all on it". I have had minutes-old fingerprints fail to tin at times
like this -- I do all my cleaning/soldering wearing disposable rubber
gloves. If I can I use fine sandpaper to make absolutely sure that I've
gotten through all the oxide and crud, and I tin _soon_.

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.

good catch - I didn't think of mentioning ACID flux - I've had good luck
with the paste stuff sold for soldering copper pipes - it's a little easier
to work with (well, a LOT easier to work with) than liquid HCL, and with a
wire brush (by hand) and some heat it will clean up a solder joint nicely
for resoldering.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

William Noble wrote:
"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.

good catch - I didn't think of mentioning ACID flux - I've had good luck
with the paste stuff sold for soldering copper pipes - it's a little easier
to work with (well, a LOT easier to work with) than liquid HCL, and with a
wire brush (by hand) and some heat it will clean up a solder joint nicely
for resoldering.

And if you have it, use an oxy/ace torch instead
of propane. Set it for a gentle, bushy oxidizing
flame. I've successfully disassembled, rodded and
reassembled two radiators. I tried propane and I
found that the heat was too low and not nearly as
controllable as oxy/ace.

In article ,
Ignoramus20788 wrote:

Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

i

I repaired the radiator on my Farmall with epoxy; didn't even remove the
radiator, did it all in place. Big ugly blob of epoxy, still holding
years later

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 07:24:52 -0500, nick hull wrote:

In article ,
Ignoramus20788 wrote:

Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

i

I repaired the radiator on my Farmall with epoxy; didn't even remove the
radiator, did it all in place. Big ugly blob of epoxy, still holding
years later

Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Caterpillar used to, perhaps still does, make an epoxy kit
specifically for repairing radiators. Used one to fix a D-6 out in the
jungle and it worked for the rest of the year and was still going
strong when we sold off the plant at the end of the contract.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct Address is bpaige125atgmaildotcom)

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 18:25:50 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

William Noble wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...
I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

I think this is easier than you think it is

1. clean joint well. use files, sandpaper, wire brush, whatever you can to
get it clean
2. clean an area about 1/2 inch around it also - get it really really clean.
And on the tube too
3. tin the areas you just cleaned - use lots of flux, get a nice layer of
solder on all the cleaned surfaces
4. make an L shape out of copper and heat it red hot, let it cool (anneals
it), wrap it around the joint where the tube joins the radiator
5. remove it and tin it inside and out
6. put it back and pull it tight, heat and solder the L, at both edges
7. finsh off any open seams on the tube
8. drink warm beer and celibrate...


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Note: "clean" means "looks like virgin metal and has nothing oily at
all on it". I have had minutes-old fingerprints fail to tin at times
like this -- I do all my cleaning/soldering wearing disposable rubber
gloves. If I can I use fine sandpaper to make absolutely sure that I've
gotten through all the oxide and crud, and I tin _soon_.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
What Tim and William said. But also the torch flame needs to be hot
and concentrated. With regular plumbing solder, silver bearing or not,
I can easily bridge a 1/8 inch gap. Bigger too. Not my skill but the
way solder melts. The solder doesn't transmit heat as well as brass.
So the trick is to use concentrated heat that gets a small area hot
fast. Remove the torch and apply the solder. Just keep repeating. As
the solder gets thicker it gets easier. Be careful to apply just
enough heat to melt a small area. And if the solder starts to look
kind of mushy over a larger area remove the heat and let it cool down
a bit.
Eric

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:18:18 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
I asked around, but couldn't find anyone locally. Everyone just said
chuck it and buy a new one. Maybe radiator shops are an American thing?

If you were in Perth, West Oz I would recommend AAA Radiators, they
put a new core in mt Patrol radiator for $230, new radiator $500+.
My youngest sons Super Major also has a radiator leak, repair is on
the round tuit list after his project Gemini gets its beefed up rear
axle & diff so it does not break every time he goes to the drags. Only
230 kW at the wheels, single turbo Isuzu 2 litre as against 800+ kW on
the drift racer he built for work demo. Stock Gen 3 5.8 litre V8 with
twin turbos, intercooler at front, radiator in boot/trunk.

On Jul 17, 7:48*pm, Christopher Tidy
wrote:
Hi folks,

Some of you may remember that about a year ago you gave me some advice
about repairing a leak in my Fordson Super Major tractor radiator. It's
a long story, but I only just got round to having a go.

The filler cap isn't on top of the radiator. It's on the end of a
horizontal pipe about six inches long which protrudes from the back of
the radiator. Where the horizontal pipe is joined to the radiator there
was a leak on the underside. ....
Chris

Annealed copper water pipe is easy to flare with a hammer and anvil.
Once the flare is almost perpendicular to the pipe you hammer the pipe
straight down to finish the end into a flat, even flange that could be
soldered to the tank.

"
I'm going to have a good search for places this weekend, then call around
on Monday.

Does anyone know if the new replacement Super Major radiators on sale are
good, or cheap crap from the Far East?

I guess Ford may still sell a suitable replacement.

Best wishes,

Chris


I really think that if it is ONLY bad seams you are far far better off
getting it fixed, whether you do it or a shop does it. you can solder over
crud if you put on flux, heat and use a wire brush (the things that look
like a tooth brush) to work the flux into the crud and lift it off. then add
some solder and tin, when an area finally gets nicely tinned, move on to the
next area


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

William Noble wrote:

I think this is easier than you think it is

1. clean joint well. use files, sandpaper, wire brush, whatever you can to
get it clean
2. clean an area about 1/2 inch around it also - get it really really clean.
And on the tube too
3. tin the areas you just cleaned - use lots of flux, get a nice layer of
solder on all the cleaned surfaces
4. make an L shape out of copper and heat it red hot, let it cool (anneals
it), wrap it around the joint where the tube joins the radiator
5. remove it and tin it inside and out
6. put it back and pull it tight, heat and solder the L, at both edges
7. finsh off any open seams on the tube
8. drink warm beer and celibrate...

I'm in no doubt that this is all good advice. Apart from the part about
making a flange from the L-shaped piece of copper, it's pretty much what
I did. But in this case the size of the gap and degree of filthyness are
both pretty severe.

I had another look at the radiator tonight. I am very doubtful that I
can fix it myself. I'm going to search a bit harder and see if I can
locate a place which does radiator repairs. It might be worth getting
fixed. Who knows, maybe the old radiators are better than the new ones?
This one is a good 40 years old.

Best wishes,

Chris

Tim Wescott wrote:

Note: "clean" means "looks like virgin metal and has nothing oily at
all on it". I have had minutes-old fingerprints fail to tin at times
like this -- I do all my cleaning/soldering wearing disposable rubber
gloves. If I can I use fine sandpaper to make absolutely sure that I've
gotten through all the oxide and crud, and I tin _soon_.

This is why I was trying to take the joint apart. So that I could get it
really clean. But as it turned out, that was the beginning of the disaster.

Best wishes,

Chris

RoyJ wrote:
What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.

I am pretty sure Fry's Powerflo is acidic. It certainly smells that way
when you heat it up!

Chris

Jim Stewart wrote:
William Noble wrote:

"RoyJ" wrote in message
...

What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.


good catch - I didn't think of mentioning ACID flux - I've had good
luck with the paste stuff sold for soldering copper pipes - it's a
little easier to work with (well, a LOT easier to work with) than
liquid HCL, and with a wire brush (by hand) and some heat it will
clean up a solder joint nicely for resoldering.


And if you have it, use an oxy/ace torch instead
of propane. Set it for a gentle, bushy oxidizing
flame. I've successfully disassembled, rodded and
reassembled two radiators. I tried propane and I
found that the heat was too low and not nearly as
controllable as oxy/ace.

I only have a propane torch (but a good one). I can't justify the cost
of the oxy-acetylene bottle rental for the amount I'd use it.

Chris

wrote:

What Tim and William said. But also the torch flame needs to be hot
and concentrated. With regular plumbing solder, silver bearing or not,
I can easily bridge a 1/8 inch gap. Bigger too. Not my skill but the
way solder melts. The solder doesn't transmit heat as well as brass.
So the trick is to use concentrated heat that gets a small area hot
fast. Remove the torch and apply the solder. Just keep repeating. As
the solder gets thicker it gets easier. Be careful to apply just
enough heat to melt a small area. And if the solder starts to look
kind of mushy over a larger area remove the heat and let it cool down
a bit.

I have a stick of the solder used for wiped joints in lead pipes.

Chris

Pete C. wrote:
Christopher Tidy wrote:

Ignoramus20788 wrote:

Sorry to hear this sad story. Since radiator shops do such repairs
for peanuts, comparatively speaking, I do not even consider any DIY
radiator repairs. Once I had a very broken radiator (off of a cummins
L 4 2 3 D engine) that the radiator shop fixed in a day for $45.

I asked around, but couldn't find anyone locally. Everyone just said
chuck it and buy a new one. Maybe radiator shops are an American thing?

At least I tried :-).

Chris


Possibly a US thing, but if you can find one they sure save a lot of
hassles. I had a radiator on an old backhoe with several leaks, etc.
that I took to a local radiator shop. They returned it repaired,
pressure tested and spotlessly re-blacked in a day for like $80. Come to
think of it, I believe that $80 also covered the hydraulic oil cooler
too. Having the right skills, tools and materials makes all the
difference.

I'm going to have a good search for places this weekend, then call
around on Monday.

Does anyone know if the new replacement Super Major radiators on sale
are good, or cheap crap from the Far East?

I guess Ford may still sell a suitable replacement.

Best wishes,

Chris

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:22:23 -0500, "Don Young"
wrote:


"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...

I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris

Others have pretty well covered the basics. Don't give up yet. A piece of
copper wire formed into a ring can bridge the gap around the pipe.

Use copper tubing. Make a ring to fit around the filler tube, and
solder it in. Fills large gaps, evenly.

Do not
use 60/40 or 63/37 solder if you can help it. Radiator shops generally would
only use these for tinning the surfaces. The 63/37 goes directly from solid
to liquid and the 60/40 is almost the same. If you get some 50/50 or 40/60
it will have a pasty or mushy state that is easier to control. Warm up the
entire area but do not try to melt all the solder at once. Using a soldering
iron (or copper) is easiest but a little practice with a small torch will
enable you to solder a small part of the area without the rest coming
unsoldered. It just takes a little practice to get the hang of it.

(One of my current projects is repairing the severely broken, welded,
reinforced, and rebroken frame rails on a 1962 Super Major with Ford 712
Loader and 723 backhoe.)

Don Young


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 21:32:57 -0700, "William Noble"
wrote:


"RoyJ" wrote in message
...
What Tim said. But the flux must be ACID. My local weld shop has some
proprietary formula stuff that works great but good old HCl has merit.

good catch - I didn't think of mentioning ACID flux - I've had good luck
with the paste stuff sold for soldering copper pipes - it's a little easier
to work with (well, a LOT easier to work with) than liquid HCL, and with a
wire brush (by hand) and some heat it will clean up a solder joint nicely
for resoldering.


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **


You REALLY want Zinc Chloride - or "cut acid" HCL with as much zinc
as it will disolve.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

Don Young wrote:
"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...

wrote:


A radiator shop will probably 'dip' it for you, or maybe a machine
shop with a hot-tank.

A high melting temp solder can't be that hard to find- maybe some
'lead free' for one and 'lead' solder for the other?

We just don't give up here- but hey, you knew that when you
posted...

I'll go and look at it again tomorrow. If it looks any better than I
expect, I might have another go.

Chris


Others have pretty well covered the basics. Don't give up yet. A piece of
copper wire formed into a ring can bridge the gap around the pipe. Do not
use 60/40 or 63/37 solder if you can help it. Radiator shops generally would
only use these for tinning the surfaces. The 63/37 goes directly from solid
to liquid and the 60/40 is almost the same. If you get some 50/50 or 40/60
it will have a pasty or mushy state that is easier to control. Warm up the
entire area but do not try to melt all the solder at once. Using a soldering
iron (or copper) is easiest but a little practice with a small torch will
enable you to solder a small part of the area without the rest coming
unsoldered. It just takes a little practice to get the hang of it.

I have some plumber's solder. Not sure of the exact composition, but it
has the "mushy" state as it's intended for making wiped joints in lead
pipes. It might be suitable for this. I'm not optimistic that I can
repair the radiator myself, though. The joint is quite highly stressed,
so it needs to be done right.

(One of my current projects is repairing the severely broken, welded,
reinforced, and rebroken frame rails on a 1962 Super Major with Ford 712
Loader and 723 backhoe.)

I'd be very interested to hear how the project progresses. My machine
has suffered a number of cracks where the frame rails are joined. I
wouldn't describe them as severe, but they were noticeable enough for
someone to weld in the past. For the most part, they were reinforced
competently and the cracks haven't returned. But there are one or two
joints which need welding. I don't think I'll do this myself, but I'd be
interested to hear your experiences.

Overall I don't think the chassis has performed badly. I think it's seen
about 20,000 hours of use, and it still works fine. I did a quick search
for pictures of your Ford machine. I think it's a bit more compact than
mine. Here's a picture of my machine:

http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/jcb.jpg

I'm also looking for a six-bladed Fordson engine fan (mine has lost two
blades). Apparently the six-bladed fan was only fitted to Fordson
engines used in diggers and in hot countries, so they're fairly rare. If
anyone has one they want to sell, or knows of a source, please let me know.

Best wishes,

Chris

William Noble wrote:
"

I'm going to have a good search for places this weekend, then call around
on Monday.

Does anyone know if the new replacement Super Major radiators on sale are
good, or cheap crap from the Far East?

I guess Ford may still sell a suitable replacement.

Best wishes,

Chris



I really think that if it is ONLY bad seams you are far far better off
getting it fixed, whether you do it or a shop does it. you can solder over
crud if you put on flux, heat and use a wire brush (the things that look
like a tooth brush) to work the flux into the crud and lift it off. then add
some solder and tin, when an area finally gets nicely tinned, move on to the
next area

On balance I don't think I'm going to chuck the radiator for the time
being. Probably I'll hang on to it even if I buy a new one.

Chris

Pete C. wrote:

Possibly a US thing, but if you can find one they sure save a lot of
hassles. I had a radiator on an old backhoe with several leaks, etc.
that I took to a local radiator shop. They returned it repaired,
pressure tested and spotlessly re-blacked in a day for like $80. Come to
think of it, I believe that $80 also covered the hydraulic oil cooler
too. Having the right skills, tools and materials makes all the
difference.

You know, I've never seen a backhoe with a hydraulic oil cooler. What
kind of backhoe was it?

Chris

Don Young wrote:

(One of my current projects is repairing the severely broken, welded,
reinforced, and rebroken frame rails on a 1962 Super Major with Ford 712
Loader and 723 backhoe.)

Incidentally, if you take any pictures of the repairs I'd love to see
them. You can reach me at cdt22 AT cantab DOT net.

Best wishes,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Don Young wrote:

(One of my current projects is repairing the severely broken, welded,
reinforced, and rebroken frame rails on a 1962 Super Major with Ford 712
Loader and 723 backhoe.)

Incidentally, if you take any pictures of the repairs I'd love to see
them. You can reach me at cdt22 AT cantab DOT net.

Best wishes,

Chris

I will try to do that.

Don Young

Don Young wrote:

snip

I will try to do that.

Thanks. Would be great. No hurry. I'm just interested to see what
approach you take to the repair.

Many thanks,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Don Young wrote:

snip

I will try to do that.

Thanks. Would be great. No hurry. I'm just interested to see what approach
you take to the repair.

Many thanks,

Chris

The worst part so far is getting all of the broken welds and reinforcements
removed. Some bolts that were supposed to hold the rails to the castings
were stripped, oversized, restripped, and had their heads welded to the
rails. Of 16 blts into the castings, 2 were the original 1/2" size. Some
were 5/8", some were 3/4" and even the 3/4" ones were stripped. There is a
lot of intact reinforcing that is impractical to remove. I would buy new
frame rails if available but they aren't. Luckily I have a nearby welder
friend who has an air arc system. It uses a copper coated carbon arc to melt
the metal and an air jet to blow it off. Because of all of the damage and
repairs poorly done, along with all the reinforcement making the rails very
stiff, it is difficult to get everything realigned properly. I have made
threaded bushings to reduce the oversize and stripped casting holes in the
front crossmember and bell housing, using epoxy and what is left of the
hole threads to help hold them in. In some places I had to plug the
stripped, oversize and crooked holes and re-drill and tap. It is a real
challenge and going pretty slow, but I will get it done.

Don Young

Don Young wrote:

The worst part so far is getting all of the broken welds and reinforcements
removed. Some bolts that were supposed to hold the rails to the castings
were stripped, oversized, restripped, and had their heads welded to the
rails. Of 16 blts into the castings, 2 were the original 1/2" size. Some
were 5/8", some were 3/4" and even the 3/4" ones were stripped. There is a
lot of intact reinforcing that is impractical to remove. I would buy new
frame rails if available but they aren't. Luckily I have a nearby welder
friend who has an air arc system. It uses a copper coated carbon arc to melt
the metal and an air jet to blow it off. Because of all of the damage and
repairs poorly done, along with all the reinforcement making the rails very
stiff, it is difficult to get everything realigned properly. I have made
threaded bushings to reduce the oversize and stripped casting holes in the
front crossmember and bell housing, using epoxy and what is left of the
hole threads to help hold them in. In some places I had to plug the
stripped, oversize and crooked holes and re-drill and tap. It is a real
challenge and going pretty slow, but I will get it done.

That sounds like a really challenging project. In welding terms, much
more challenging than my machine. There is no damage to the tractor on
my machine and the frame rails do not appear to be distorted. The worst
cracks are about 2" long, and in a backhoe boom which is about 16" deep,
they don't look like a problem at the moment. Someone has repaired the
dipper before. A fair repair I think. Perhaps not perfect, but it hasn't
cracked again. Some day I would like to restore the machine completely
and get the cracks repaired by a professional welder.

Can you tell if the damage to your machine is just the result of
fatigue, or has it been caused by overloading? I've never seen a digger
with damaged castings before. Does the tractor itself carry the digging
and loading forces, or do the frame rails run from front to rear?

Here are a couple of pictures of my machine. The first shows the 2"
cracks in the backhoe boom. The second shows the repaired dipper:

http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/jcb_fatigue1.jpg
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/jcb_fatigue2.jpg

It is heartening that you have the perseverance to pursue your repair
project. Drop me an e-mail if you have time to take any pictures!

Best wishes,

Chris

"Christopher Tidy" wrote in message
...
Don Young wrote:

The worst part so far is getting all of the broken welds and
reinforcements removed. Some bolts that were supposed to hold the rails
to the castings were stripped, oversized, restripped, and had their heads
welded to the rails. Of 16 blts into the castings, 2 were the original
1/2" size. Some were 5/8", some were 3/4" and even the 3/4" ones were
stripped. There is a lot of intact reinforcing that is impractical to
remove. I would buy new frame rails if available but they aren't. Luckily
I have a nearby welder friend who has an air arc system. It uses a copper
coated carbon arc to melt the metal and an air jet to blow it off.
Because of all of the damage and repairs poorly done, along with all the
reinforcement making the rails very stiff, it is difficult to get
everything realigned properly. I have made threaded bushings to reduce
the oversize and stripped casting holes in the front crossmember and bell
housing, using epoxy and what is left of the hole threads to help hold
them in. In some places I had to plug the stripped, oversize and crooked
holes and re-drill and tap. It is a real challenge and going pretty slow,
but I will get it done.

That sounds like a really challenging project. In welding terms, much more
challenging than my machine. There is no damage to the tractor on my
machine and the frame rails do not appear to be distorted. The worst
cracks are about 2" long, and in a backhoe boom which is about 16" deep,
they don't look like a problem at the moment. Someone has repaired the
dipper before. A fair repair I think. Perhaps not perfect, but it hasn't
cracked again. Some day I would like to restore the machine completely and
get the cracks repaired by a professional welder.

Can you tell if the damage to your machine is just the result of fatigue,
or has it been caused by overloading? I've never seen a digger with
damaged castings before. Does the tractor itself carry the digging and
loading forces, or do the frame rails run from front to rear?

Here are a couple of pictures of my machine. The first shows the 2" cracks
in the backhoe boom. The second shows the repaired dipper:

http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/jcb_fatigue1.jpg
http://www.mythic-beasts.com/~cdt22/jcb_fatigue2.jpg

It is heartening that you have the perseverance to pursue your repair
project. Drop me an e-mail if you have time to take any pictures!

Best wishes,

Chris

The loader and backhoe are carried by accessory frame rails which go the
length of the tractor. Where they bolted to the front crossmember and the
bell housing is where the problems are. It is hard to tell but I think the
original design was not strong enough for the size and power of the loader
and backhoe. It obviously was made worse by failure to keep the bolts tight
and by poor welding of the initial failures. Lots of machinery damage could
be avoided by regular use of a wrench and a grease gun. Watch those cracks
carefully, cracks nearly always get longer. You really should get a good
welder to repair them while they are small.

Don Young

Don Young

Don Young

Don Young wrote:

The loader and backhoe are carried by accessory frame rails which go the
length of the tractor. Where they bolted to the front crossmember and the
bell housing is where the problems are. It is hard to tell but I think the
original design was not strong enough for the size and power of the loader
and backhoe. It obviously was made worse by failure to keep the bolts tight
and by poor welding of the initial failures. Lots of machinery damage could
be avoided by regular use of a wrench and a grease gun. Watch those cracks
carefully, cracks nearly always get longer. You really should get a good
welder to repair them while they are small.

That's the same as mine, except that the frame rails carry the front
axle on my machine. The engine just overhangs from the bell housing.

You're right about many failures being preventable by good maintenance.
I have seen factories where breakdowns cost them big money, and yet they
still don't carry out maintenance until a machine breaks.

I am intending to get those cracks repaired, but I don't know anyone
local who is an excellent welder at present. Repairing the cracks is a
little harder than it looks as they go further on the inside of the boom
than the outside. I think the ram needs to be removed and the cracks
opened out to a V-shape using a die grinder. The patch plate around the
opening could also be ground off and replaced.

The machine gets fairly infrequent use at present, so I'm hoping that
the cracks will be alright for a little longer.

I discovered that the radiator is somewhat rare. Not a standard Fordson
Super Major radiator. But I've found someone who has the right radiator
with a damaged core, but good top and bottom tanks, so I'm buying it
cheap. Hopefully I can get the top tank switched.

Best wishes,

Chris

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 00:02:06 +0000, Christopher Tidy
wrote:

Don Young wrote:

The loader and backhoe are carried by accessory frame rails which go the
length of the tractor. Where they bolted to the front crossmember and the
bell housing is where the problems are. It is hard to tell but I think the
original design was not strong enough for the size and power of the loader
and backhoe. It obviously was made worse by failure to keep the bolts tight
and by poor welding of the initial failures. Lots of machinery damage could
be avoided by regular use of a wrench and a grease gun. Watch those cracks
carefully, cracks nearly always get longer. You really should get a good
welder to repair them while they are small.

That's the same as mine, except that the frame rails carry the front
axle on my machine. The engine just overhangs from the bell housing.

You're right about many failures being preventable by good maintenance.
I have seen factories where breakdowns cost them big money, and yet they
still don't carry out maintenance until a machine breaks.

I am intending to get those cracks repaired, but I don't know anyone
local who is an excellent welder at present. Repairing the cracks is a
little harder than it looks as they go further on the inside of the boom
than the outside. I think the ram needs to be removed and the cracks
opened out to a V-shape using a die grinder. The patch plate around the
opening could also be ground off and replaced.

An Arc-Air torch does the "V" grooving a lot more effectively than a
grinder in that application.
Had a real "artiste" with the arc-air at the construction equipment
shop I worked in many years a go. He'd groove out a crack, then fill
it back in with the welder in less time than the other welder could
find and put a new grinding wheel on his hand-grinder.

The machine gets fairly infrequent use at present, so I'm hoping that
the cracks will be alright for a little longer.

I discovered that the radiator is somewhat rare. Not a standard Fordson
Super Major radiator. But I've found someone who has the right radiator
with a damaged core, but good top and bottom tanks, so I'm buying it
cheap. Hopefully I can get the top tank switched.

Best wishes,

Chris

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **