On Jul 19, 6:17*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in ...



Ed Huntress wrote:

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an hour
of
their lives studying economics.

* Ed, I have never had an encounter with union, or their members where
I wasn't lied to, threatened or they attempted to steal something.

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union members.
For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

We won't lie to you, Michael. We'd never threaten you, and we don't steal..

* You can get in bed with the low life *******s, but I refuse to.

I'd be very unhappy if I found you in bed with my wife. My uncles...well,
each to his own.

--
Ed Huntress
Hi Ed:
My biggist point is every person should have the right to join a Union
or not.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Millwright Ron wrote:
On Jul 19, 6:17 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
...



Ed Huntress wrote:

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the
same percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also
about par for people pontificating about history and economics
when they were bored stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an
hour of
their lives studying economics.

Ed, I have never had an encounter with union, or their members where
I wasn't lied to, threatened or they attempted to steal something.

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union
members.
For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in
college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union.
My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was
also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

We won't lie to you, Michael. We'd never threaten you, and we don't
steal.

You can get in bed with the low life *******s, but I refuse to.

I'd be very unhappy if I found you in bed with my wife. My
uncles...well,
each to his own.

--
Ed Huntress
Hi Ed:
My biggist point is every person should have the right to join a Union
or not.

Your "biggist point" Ron sems to be that you would like to insure that
secret ballots are abolished.
There is only one reason to want that - coersion and/or intimidation of
anyone voting.

People do have the right to join a union and unions have rights protecting
their ability to organize.
Read the Hobbs Act, for example, if you don't believe me.

You might not like it much as one of the things it protects against is the
sort of behavior that would result from passage of the legistlation you are
hawking.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
...
On Jul 19, 6:17 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in
...



Ed Huntress wrote:

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an hour
of
their lives studying economics.

Ed, I have never had an encounter with union, or their members where
I wasn't lied to, threatened or they attempted to steal something.

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union members.
For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

We won't lie to you, Michael. We'd never threaten you, and we don't steal.

You can get in bed with the low life *******s, but I refuse to.

I'd be very unhappy if I found you in bed with my wife. My uncles...well,
each to his own.

--
Ed Huntress
Hi Ed:
My biggist point is every person should have the right to join a Union
or not.

Millwright Ron
www.unionmillwright.com

Yeah, well, that's fine, Ron, as far as it goes. You won't get a lot of
rational argument about your biggest point.

But the battleground really lies elsewhere. For example, the one that John
Carroll points out, that anything other than secret balloting will never be
accepted in this country, is a major one. And, of course, there are many
others, including the fact that unions tend to see protectionism as an
all-purpose solution to non-competitiveness.

Anyway, it's not something we can solve here. *My* biggest point is that the
reaction against unions you'll see in a group like this is visceral and
vehement; it will never be objective nor academic; and nothing you can say
or do is likely to change that. You're really prosyletizing to the wrong
crowd.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:17:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an hour
of
their lives studying economics.


Ed, I have never had an encounter with union, or their members where
I wasn't lied to, threatened or they attempted to steal something.

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union members.

Yeah; they may be thugs, but you want to associate with better thugs.


For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

Isn't it the teacher's unions who have helped get us into the mess
we're in with teaching kids, Ed? Maybe the NJEA is lily white, but I
doubt it: http://www.google.com/search?q=teach...+union+scandal
Google only shows the more important 241,000 listings. chortle
Maybe all of us have our veils.

Go behind the scenes of any convention. Watch the Teamsters union in
action for an hour or 6. If a person who is not in the electrician's
union kicks an extension cord out of the wall, Union regs say that an
electrician must reinstall it, noone else. Only riggers can lift heavy
equipment, like heavy cardboard panels weighing a ghastly ten pounds.
I had a field day watching the antics and talking with an exasperated
union member in LV before the COMDEX convention about a decade ago.
Yes, Ed, there is considerable dissention even within their ranks.


We won't lie to you, Michael. We'd never threaten you, and we don't steal.

"We" meaning the RCM union?


You can get in bed with the low life *******s, but I refuse to.

I'd be very unhappy if I found you in bed with my wife. My uncles...well,
each to his own.

What? Michael'd find your uncles there? Do their 3 unions know about
this? gd&r

--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:17:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Ed Huntress wrote:

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an hour
of
their lives studying economics.


Ed, I have never had an encounter with union, or their members where
I wasn't lied to, threatened or they attempted to steal something.

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union members.

Yeah; they may be thugs, but you want to associate with better thugs.

Which of my relatives do you think is the thug?

For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

Isn't it the teacher's unions who have helped get us into the mess
we're in with teaching kids, Ed? Maybe the NJEA is lily white, but I
doubt it: http://www.google.com/search?q=teach...+union+scandal
Google only shows the more important 241,000 listings. chortle
Maybe all of us have our veils.

So, what is it you're saying about my wife and uncle, Larry?

BTW, if you want to look at the history of unions, do you know why we have
tenure for teachers in public schools? Do you know how that came about?

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:09:19 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:17:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union members.

Yeah; they may be thugs, but you want to associate with better thugs.

Which of my relatives do you think is the thug?

While your relatives may not be thugs, many union members are.
Which of your relatives do you think are thugs?


For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

Isn't it the teacher's unions who have helped get us into the mess
we're in with teaching kids, Ed? Maybe the NJEA is lily white, but I
doubt it: http://www.google.com/search?q=teach...+union+scandal
Google only shows the more important 241,000 listings. chortle
Maybe all of us have our veils.

So, what is it you're saying about my wife and uncle, Larry?

BTW, if you want to look at the history of unions, do you know why we have
tenure for teachers in public schools? Do you know how that came about?

I did a quick google and didn't find anything of merit. Go ahead.
From memory, it came about to keep teachers from being fired over
highly political issues. Like unions, it has a few redeeming
characteristics nowadays, but it, too, is often being abused.

What unions were designed to accomplish eons ago and what they are
doing to us today are two totally different things, separated on one
side by morality, fairness, and honesty, and on the other side by
criminality and greed. Again, that doesn't apply to all unions, just
most, judging by what I've seen, experienced, and heard in my
half-vast 54 years. YMMV?

--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 09:09:19 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 21:17:12 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:

Really? Well, you need to associate with a better class of union
members.

Yeah; they may be thugs, but you want to associate with better thugs.

Which of my relatives do you think is the thug?

While your relatives may not be thugs, many union members are.

We could say the same about a number of corporate CEOs and hedge-fund
managers. The difference is that they tend to use hired hands.

Which of your relatives do you think are thugs?

None of them. They're among the most decent people I know, including the
ones who are or were members of unions.



For example, I was a member of the Retail Clerks when I was in college
and
worked in a supermarket. My wife is in the NJEA, a teacher's union. My
uncle, who was one of the best machinists you would ever see, was also
in
NJEA. And another uncle was in the Ironworkers.

Isn't it the teacher's unions who have helped get us into the mess
we're in with teaching kids, Ed? Maybe the NJEA is lily white, but I
doubt it: http://www.google.com/search?q=teach...+union+scandal
Google only shows the more important 241,000 listings. chortle
Maybe all of us have our veils.

So, what is it you're saying about my wife and uncle, Larry?

BTW, if you want to look at the history of unions, do you know why we have
tenure for teachers in public schools? Do you know how that came about?

I did a quick google and didn't find anything of merit. Go ahead.
From memory, it came about to keep teachers from being fired over
highly political issues. Like unions, it has a few redeeming
characteristics nowadays, but it, too, is often being abused.

You have to dig deep into the history to find it, unless you know people who
lived it. In my case, I have relatives who lived it on both sides -- the
petty local politicians, and the teachers who joined unions, as far back as
1929.

"Tenure" is an idea that comes from German higher education, where even the
research was highly politicized, and the idea spread to universities around
the world. The idea was to keep science and other research independent of
politics, including academic politics.

In the US public schools, the situation obviously had nothing to do with
research or "creating" knowledge in a scientifically neutral environment. It
was just a convenient term, with some prestige, that was adopted to describe
what amounted to civil service reform.

Through the 1930s, public school jobs, including teaching, were patronage
jobs. When a new politician came in a lot of teachers were swept out, and
the ranks of teachers were re-populated with the nieces, nephews, maiden
aunts and other relatives and friends of the politicians. My uncle faced
this in 1929 and again in the early '30s, when he was let go because he had
the wrong political affiliations. Fortunately for him his wife's relatives
started winning elections and he never had to face that again.

Anyway, the situation was common in cities and even many rural areas
throughout the US, and it led to very unprofessional teaching. Anyone who
thinks teaching in the US has declined just doesn't know how bad it was. I
started elementary school in the mid-50s and some of those patronage drones
were still around.

So the balance tipped the other way, and it created a new basis for drones.
A second wave of reforms in most states make it easier to fire them now and
teachers tend to be a lot better, but the reforms haven't gone far enough,
for one simple reason: People don't want to get involved in the real
business of politics. So the unions, and particularly their lobbyists, run
roughshod. But there is no one to blame for it, except for the people who
think getting involved in their local politics is too messy, or too time
consuming, to step in and apply counter pressure.

That's the pattern for most of the excesses that have resulted from reforms
that originally had a good purpose. The same is true of a lot of labor laws.


What unions were designed to accomplish eons ago and what they are
doing to us today are two totally different things, separated on one
side by morality, fairness, and honesty, and on the other side by
criminality and greed.

Separated by a couple of generations of people who didn't give enough of a
damn to get involved. Unions had to organize and lobby to get what they
wanted. Then people ignored the lobbies, or just grumbled to themselves, and
the lobbies went wild.

Again, that doesn't apply to all unions, just
most, judging by what I've seen, experienced, and heard in my
half-vast 54 years. YMMV?

Most unions hardly know what to do with themselves today, because they got
most of what they wanted long ago, but there are important exceptions. For
example, the companies that make cast iron pipe are some of the most
murderous *******s left in industry, and they keep unions out by
intimidation. Those people need unions.

The broader point should be recognized by this particular group, who tend to
care about traditions and who have some knowledge of industrial history.
Union people like Ron appear to me to be focusing on the past and won't
quite let go of it. OTOH, there's little doubt in my mind that, given global
competition, there are some companies that would revert back to their vile
labor practices from the past if they could get away with it. Then
competition would force other companies into the same practices -- the exact
pattern that occurred over 100 years ago. Vigilence is the price of liberty,
etc. It's easy to despise unions (my father despised them his entire life)
but it's a good idea, IMO, not to demonize them. Labor still needs a
supportive counterforce, even if it stays in the background.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:48:02 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:17vv749mb19ahv7n0v4faibsp6ugl4kjqi@4ax .com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:48:20 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:08gu7458e3ppd6da2kuaiorus3m70nma72@4 ax.com...
snip

You guys are sure giving that union troll a lot of air time...again.


Ron is a troll and he knows unions are a hot-button with many here so,
he
wins!

The wise man stops to think before typing.

I don't think that Ron is a troll so much as a prosyletizer. And,
considering this crowd, he's in the lion's den.

I don't believe he'd be back for more if he weren't a troll, sir.

He's not starting conversations. He's laying out his "evidence." Think of
him as a persistent proselytizer. g



OTOH, he's about the only one here who promotes the other side of the
story.
And there are two sides to it. You just don't like to hear it.

"Promotes"? Methinks you misspelled "lies about", Ed. He praises
unions, the Army says "See the world!", and religious fanatics talk
about "heaven", as if there's nothing else to life. Nah, don't want to
hear about it, thanks.

That's what I mean.

--
Ed Huntress


Come on Ed, the only thing missing from Ron's pontificating is 72 virgins!

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored stiff
in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an hour of
their lives studying economics.

--
Ed Huntress


I'm anti-CORRUPT-union...is that the same? After 35 years, I've experience
quite a bit of that, including grand theft, fraud and coercion that involved
many police and NLB investigations.

Unions were born in brutality and corruption, with hundreds of them hung or
shot to death in the 19th century; ex-cons hired by factory owners and given
machine guns mowed them down in at least three demonstrations; dozens were
lynched for leading strikes, and the corrupt cops who could have stopped it
either cheered it on or turned their backs. It's a brutal business. In turn,
it's bred violence and corruption within its ranks and a no-holds-barred,
mob-style attitude.

Should we be surprised? The thing is, if you're anti corrupt union because
they're corrupt, then there's hardly a powerful institution in this country
that doesn't deserve the same reaction from you. Corruption is the product of
power and opportunity. No segment of society is immune to the incentives for
corruption, and no segment of society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians.

So you have to put that into perspective to judge the whole system in terms of
net effects on people. I don't think that many people can detach themselves
from their emotional reactions and view it purely in terms of economic and
social effects. Either that, or they view it through an ideological filter
that blinds them to what's really going on.

--
Ed Huntress


Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of society is
immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of society is free of
the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong detector
is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to form opinions
about corruption.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:48:02 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:17vv749mb19ahv7n0v4faibsp6ugl4kjqi@4a x.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:48:20 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:08gu7458e3ppd6da2kuaiorus3m70nma72@ 4ax.com...
snip

You guys are sure giving that union troll a lot of air
time...again.


Ron is a troll and he knows unions are a hot-button with many here
so, he
wins!

The wise man stops to think before typing.

I don't think that Ron is a troll so much as a prosyletizer. And,
considering this crowd, he's in the lion's den.

I don't believe he'd be back for more if he weren't a troll, sir.

He's not starting conversations. He's laying out his "evidence."
Think of him as a persistent proselytizer. g



OTOH, he's about the only one here who promotes the other side of
the story.
And there are two sides to it. You just don't like to hear it.

"Promotes"? Methinks you misspelled "lies about", Ed. He praises
unions, the Army says "See the world!", and religious fanatics talk
about "heaven", as if there's nothing else to life. Nah, don't want
to
hear about it, thanks.

That's what I mean.

--
Ed Huntress


Come on Ed, the only thing missing from Ron's pontificating is 72
virgins!

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe
an hour of their lives studying economics.

--
Ed Huntress


I'm anti-CORRUPT-union...is that the same? After 35 years, I've
experience quite a bit of that, including grand theft, fraud and
coercion that involved many police and NLB investigations.

Unions were born in brutality and corruption, with hundreds of them hung
or shot to death in the 19th century; ex-cons hired by factory owners and
given machine guns mowed them down in at least three demonstrations;
dozens were lynched for leading strikes, and the corrupt cops who could
have stopped it either cheered it on or turned their backs. It's a brutal
business. In turn, it's bred violence and corruption within its ranks and
a no-holds-barred, mob-style attitude.

Should we be surprised? The thing is, if you're anti corrupt union
because they're corrupt, then there's hardly a powerful institution in
this country that doesn't deserve the same reaction from you. Corruption
is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of society is immune
to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of society is free of
the kinds of greed and ambition that lead some people to become corrupt.
There are corrupt church ministers as well as corrupt corporate
treasurers and politicians.

So you have to put that into perspective to judge the whole system in
terms of net effects on people. I don't think that many people can detach
themselves from their emotional reactions and view it purely in terms of
economic and social effects. Either that, or they view it through an
ideological filter that blinds them to what's really going on.

--
Ed Huntress


Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of
society is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of
society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to
form opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I said
was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better despise
every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that matter. You'd
might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really upsets you, you
could get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of work.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:48:02 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:17vv749mb19ahv7n0v4faibsp6ugl4kjqi@4 ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:48:20 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:08gu7458e3ppd6da2kuaiorus3m70nma72 @4ax.com...
snip

You guys are sure giving that union troll a lot of air
time...again.


Ron is a troll and he knows unions are a hot-button with many here
so, he
wins!

The wise man stops to think before typing.

I don't think that Ron is a troll so much as a prosyletizer. And,
considering this crowd, he's in the lion's den.

I don't believe he'd be back for more if he weren't a troll, sir.

He's not starting conversations. He's laying out his "evidence." Think
of him as a persistent proselytizer. g



OTOH, he's about the only one here who promotes the other side of the
story.
And there are two sides to it. You just don't like to hear it.

"Promotes"? Methinks you misspelled "lies about", Ed. He praises
unions, the Army says "See the world!", and religious fanatics talk
about "heaven", as if there's nothing else to life. Nah, don't want to
hear about it, thanks.

That's what I mean.

--
Ed Huntress


Come on Ed, the only thing missing from Ron's pontificating is 72
virgins!

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an
hour of their lives studying economics.

--
Ed Huntress


I'm anti-CORRUPT-union...is that the same? After 35 years, I've experience
quite a bit of that, including grand theft, fraud and coercion that
involved many police and NLB investigations.

Unions were born in brutality and corruption, with hundreds of them hung or
shot to death in the 19th century; ex-cons hired by factory owners and given
machine guns mowed them down in at least three demonstrations; dozens were
lynched for leading strikes, and the corrupt cops who could have stopped it
either cheered it on or turned their backs. It's a brutal business. In turn,
it's bred violence and corruption within its ranks and a no-holds-barred,
mob-style attitude.

Should we be surprised? The thing is, if you're anti corrupt union because
they're corrupt, then there's hardly a powerful institution in this country
that doesn't deserve the same reaction from you. Corruption is the product
of power and opportunity. No segment of society is immune to the incentives
for corruption, and no segment of society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians.

So you have to put that into perspective to judge the whole system in terms
of net effects on people. I don't think that many people can detach
themselves from their emotional reactions and view it purely in terms of
economic and social effects. Either that, or they view it through an
ideological filter that blinds them to what's really going on.

--
Ed Huntress


Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of society
is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of society is
free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to form
opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I said
was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better despise
every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that matter. You'd
might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really upsets you, you could
get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of work.

--
Ed Huntress


Don't put words in MY mouth! I said: "I'm anti-CORRUPT-union." And somehow you
derive: "you despise unions". ...good try, won't fly.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:48:02 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:17vv749mb19ahv7n0v4faibsp6ugl4kjqi@ 4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:48:20 -0400, with neither quill nor
qualm, "Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:08gu7458e3ppd6da2kuaiorus3m70nma7 ...
snip

You guys are sure giving that union troll a lot of air
time...again.


Ron is a troll and he knows unions are a hot-button with many
here so, he
wins!

The wise man stops to think before typing.

I don't think that Ron is a troll so much as a prosyletizer. And,
considering this crowd, he's in the lion's den.

I don't believe he'd be back for more if he weren't a troll, sir.

He's not starting conversations. He's laying out his "evidence."
Think of him as a persistent proselytizer. g



OTOH, he's about the only one here who promotes the other side of
the story.
And there are two sides to it. You just don't like to hear it.

"Promotes"? Methinks you misspelled "lies about", Ed. He praises
unions, the Army says "See the world!", and religious fanatics
talk
about "heaven", as if there's nothing else to life. Nah, don't
want to
hear about it, thanks.

That's what I mean.

--
Ed Huntress


Come on Ed, the only thing missing from Ron's pontificating is 72
virgins!

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par
for people pontificating about history and economics when they were
bored stiff in history class and never read the books, and have spent
maybe an hour of their lives studying economics.

--
Ed Huntress


I'm anti-CORRUPT-union...is that the same? After 35 years, I've
experience quite a bit of that, including grand theft, fraud and
coercion that involved many police and NLB investigations.

Unions were born in brutality and corruption, with hundreds of them
hung or shot to death in the 19th century; ex-cons hired by factory
owners and given machine guns mowed them down in at least three
demonstrations; dozens were lynched for leading strikes, and the
corrupt cops who could have stopped it either cheered it on or turned
their backs. It's a brutal business. In turn, it's bred violence and
corruption within its ranks and a no-holds-barred, mob-style attitude.

Should we be surprised? The thing is, if you're anti corrupt union
because they're corrupt, then there's hardly a powerful institution in
this country that doesn't deserve the same reaction from you.
Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of
society is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of
society is free of the kinds of greed and ambition that lead some
people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church ministers as well as
corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians.

So you have to put that into perspective to judge the whole system in
terms of net effects on people. I don't think that many people can
detach themselves from their emotional reactions and view it purely in
terms of economic and social effects. Either that, or they view it
through an ideological filter that blinds them to what's really going
on.

--
Ed Huntress


Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of
society is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of
society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt
church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to
form opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I
said was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better
despise every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that
matter. You'd might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really
upsets you, you could get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of
work.

--
Ed Huntress


Don't put words in MY mouth! I said: "I'm anti-CORRUPT-union." And
somehow you derive: "you despise unions". ...good try, won't fly.

Oh, cripes. Do we have to watch every word here, like with the idiots on the
kook groups?

I know what you mean. You know I know what you mean. And I know you know
that I know what you mean. d8-)

Corruption is endemic to all kinds of institutions. Right now it seems to be
running especially hot in Congress and in international banking. What I said
was, if you're objecting to unions -- corrupt unions, uncorrupt unions,
whatever -- because unions are corrupt, then you have a problem, because you
won't find any large institutions that don't have some corruption. If you're
saying that you only object to the ones that are corrupt, and that you think
other unions are just fine, then I have to say that's a darned unremarkable
position, because nearly everyone objects to the most corrupt examples of
anything.

So it's sort of a self-evident statement that doesn't say anything. But
let's be frank about it: you started off saying you object to the whole
"union mentality," so it's pretty clear that you object to unions in
general. Right? And that's what I'm responding to. Hell, damned near
everyone objects to corruption, except for people who are corrupt
themselves.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:48:02 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:17vv749mb19ahv7n0v4faibsp6ugl4kjqi @4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:48:20 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm,
"Tom
Gardner" quickly quoth:


"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
news:08gu7458e3ppd6da2kuaiorus3m70nma ...
snip

You guys are sure giving that union troll a lot of air
time...again.


Ron is a troll and he knows unions are a hot-button with many here
so, he
wins!

The wise man stops to think before typing.

I don't think that Ron is a troll so much as a prosyletizer. And,
considering this crowd, he's in the lion's den.

I don't believe he'd be back for more if he weren't a troll, sir.

He's not starting conversations. He's laying out his "evidence." Think
of him as a persistent proselytizer. g



OTOH, he's about the only one here who promotes the other side of the
story.
And there are two sides to it. You just don't like to hear it.

"Promotes"? Methinks you misspelled "lies about", Ed. He praises
unions, the Army says "See the world!", and religious fanatics talk
about "heaven", as if there's nothing else to life. Nah, don't want
to
hear about it, thanks.

That's what I mean.

--
Ed Huntress


Come on Ed, the only thing missing from Ron's pontificating is 72
virgins!

Overall, Ron is a little less than half right. That's about the same
percentage as the anti-union set delivers here. It's also about par for
people pontificating about history and economics when they were bored
stiff in history class and never read the books, and have spent maybe an
hour of their lives studying economics.

--
Ed Huntress


I'm anti-CORRUPT-union...is that the same? After 35 years, I've
experience quite a bit of that, including grand theft, fraud and coercion
that involved many police and NLB investigations.

Unions were born in brutality and corruption, with hundreds of them hung
or shot to death in the 19th century; ex-cons hired by factory owners and
given machine guns mowed them down in at least three demonstrations;
dozens were lynched for leading strikes, and the corrupt cops who could
have stopped it either cheered it on or turned their backs. It's a brutal
business. In turn, it's bred violence and corruption within its ranks and
a no-holds-barred, mob-style attitude.

Should we be surprised? The thing is, if you're anti corrupt union because
they're corrupt, then there's hardly a powerful institution in this
country that doesn't deserve the same reaction from you. Corruption is the
product of power and opportunity. No segment of society is immune to the
incentives for corruption, and no segment of society is free of the kinds
of greed and ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are
corrupt church ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and
politicians.

So you have to put that into perspective to judge the whole system in
terms of net effects on people. I don't think that many people can detach
themselves from their emotional reactions and view it purely in terms of
economic and social effects. Either that, or they view it through an
ideological filter that blinds them to what's really going on.

--
Ed Huntress


Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of society
is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of society is
free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to
form opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I said
was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better despise
every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that matter. You'd
might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really upsets you, you
could get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of work.

--
Ed Huntress


Don't put words in MY mouth! I said: "I'm anti-CORRUPT-union." And somehow
you derive: "you despise unions". ...good try, won't fly.

Oh, cripes. Do we have to watch every word here, like with the idiots on the
kook groups?

I know what you mean. You know I know what you mean. And I know you know that
I know what you mean. d8-)

Corruption is endemic to all kinds of institutions. Right now it seems to be
running especially hot in Congress and in international banking. What I said
was, if you're objecting to unions -- corrupt unions, uncorrupt unions,
whatever -- because unions are corrupt, then you have a problem, because you
won't find any large institutions that don't have some corruption. If you're
saying that you only object to the ones that are corrupt, and that you think
other unions are just fine, then I have to say that's a darned unremarkable
position, because nearly everyone objects to the most corrupt examples of
anything.

So it's sort of a self-evident statement that doesn't say anything. But let's
be frank about it: you started off saying you object to the whole "union
mentality," so it's pretty clear that you object to unions in general. Right?
And that's what I'm responding to. Hell, damned near everyone objects to
corruption, except for people who are corrupt themselves.

--
Ed Huntress


Ok, we'll end the bickering but I don't agree with ANY corruption no matter if
it is "deserved" or not. No, I don't object to unions, I told my employees when
they wanted to decert that I would demand they form an in-house union in order
to present a collective bargaining unit rather than reach a separate peace with
each employee individually. When the USW got word of a potential decert, the
rushed out 20 goons (no better word) to have "individual" talks with the
members. Many told me later that they felt threatened.

Read about unions in Japan. That's how it should be.

On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:59:40 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
.. .

Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of
society is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of
society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to
form opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I said
was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better despise
every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that matter. You'd
might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really upsets you, you
could get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of work.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us here DO hold most of the people
in charge of those institutions in the highest contempt, Ed. Greed and
corruption are just _wrong_, no matter where they lie. We moralist and
idealists just can't palate it. If you can, well...fine. Just don't
push it on us. We're busy tilting at windmills. shrug

--
Vidi, Vici, Veni
---

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip


Corruption is endemic to all kinds of institutions. Right now it seems to
be running especially hot in Congress and in international banking. What
I said was, if you're objecting to unions -- corrupt unions, uncorrupt
unions, whatever -- because unions are corrupt, then you have a problem,
because you won't find any large institutions that don't have some
corruption. If you're saying that you only object to the ones that are
corrupt, and that you think other unions are just fine, then I have to
say that's a darned unremarkable position, because nearly everyone
objects to the most corrupt examples of anything.

So it's sort of a self-evident statement that doesn't say anything. But
let's be frank about it: you started off saying you object to the whole
"union mentality," so it's pretty clear that you object to unions in
general. Right? And that's what I'm responding to. Hell, damned near
everyone objects to corruption, except for people who are corrupt
themselves.

--
Ed Huntress


Ok, we'll end the bickering but I don't agree with ANY corruption no
matter if it is "deserved" or not.

Who in the heck does, Tom? My point is not that I "accept" corruption.
Rather, it's that, like death and taxes, corruption has always been with us
and probably always will be, and that it's a useless thing to make it a
centerpiece in your judgment of any institution's value. Complaining about
it is like complaining because the sun comes up in the east, when you'd
rather have it come up in the west. If there's so much corruption in an
institution that it can't do its job, then it's time to reform that
institution's oversight and regulation. And that's true with many unions,
particularly the big, old ones that fought the most brutal battles in past
decades. They have deep and abiding streaks of ruthlessness and corruption
in them.

No, I don't object to unions, I told my employees when they wanted to
decert that I would demand they form an in-house union in order to present
a collective bargaining unit rather than reach a separate peace with each
employee individually. When the USW got word of a potential decert, the
rushed out 20 goons (no better word) to have "individual" talks with the
members. Many told me later that they felt threatened.

So, you've had a bad experience that colors your attitude. It would be
interesting to know the nature of the "threats" that your employees claimed.


Read about unions in Japan. That's how it should be.

Oh, I've read about them. If you ever read David Halberstam's _The
Reckoning_, you know the history of Japan's "unions," which are total
captives of factory management. Japan's unions right after WWII started off
like US unions, only they lost the physical fight. Management goons broke a
lot of bones to get those unions that you think are "how it should be." Now
they're as obedient to management as well-trained puppy dogs. And that's
why, as Europe's EC analysts said many years ago, Japanese workers were
"workaholics living in rabbit hutches."

--
Ed Huntress

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 23:59:40 -0400, with neither quill nor qualm, "Ed
Huntress" quickly quoth:


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
. ..

Are you condoning corruption in the unions or anywhere else because:

"Corruption is the product of power and opportunity. No segment of
society is immune to the incentives for corruption, and no segment of
society is free of the kinds of greed and
ambition that lead some people to become corrupt. There are corrupt
church
ministers as well as corrupt corporate treasurers and politicians."

Well, since there are corrupt church ministers...it's all OK???

SHAME ON YOU! Sorry, I can't condone it. Next, tell me my right/wrong
detector is too biased or politically incorrect; that I have no right to
form opinions about corruption.

Stop putting words in my mouth, Tom. I didn't say I condone it. What I
said
was that if that's the reason you despise unions, then you'd better
despise
every major institution in the US -- and the world, for that matter. You'd
might as well just hole up and hide out. Or if it really upsets you, you
could get involved with changing it...but that's a lot of work.

I'd be willing to bet that most of us here DO hold most of the people
in charge of those institutions in the highest contempt, Ed.

Contempt doesn't solve problems. It's like voting for a Libertarian: a
posture that makes you feel better, but which solves nothing, except to keep
you safely away from the messiness of it all.

Greed and
corruption are just _wrong_, no matter where they lie.

No kidding, Sherlock. Tell that to all the former State Department officials
who become lobbyists for foreign governments. Tell it to the investors who
spread bad rumors about a stock while they take short positions. Tell it to
General Motors when they make desperate, Hail Mary investments with their
employees' pension funds.

In other words, show me a big institution or a big money position that isn't
ultimately driven by greed, and that isn't shot through with corruption,
petty or grand.

We moralist and
idealists just can't palate it. If you can, well...fine. Just don't
push it on us. We're busy tilting at windmills. shrug

That's fine. Just stay out of the line of fire so something real and good
has at least a chance of getting done.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

snip


Corruption is endemic to all kinds of institutions. Right now it seems
to be running especially hot in Congress and in international banking.
What I said was, if you're objecting to unions -- corrupt unions,
uncorrupt unions, whatever -- because unions are corrupt, then you have
a problem, because you won't find any large institutions that don't have
some corruption. If you're saying that you only object to the ones that
are corrupt, and that you think other unions are just fine, then I have
to say that's a darned unremarkable position, because nearly everyone
objects to the most corrupt examples of anything.

So it's sort of a self-evident statement that doesn't say anything. But
let's be frank about it: you started off saying you object to the whole
"union mentality," so it's pretty clear that you object to unions in
general. Right? And that's what I'm responding to. Hell, damned near
everyone objects to corruption, except for people who are corrupt
themselves.

--
Ed Huntress


Ok, we'll end the bickering but I don't agree with ANY corruption no
matter if it is "deserved" or not.

Who in the heck does, Tom? My point is not that I "accept" corruption.
Rather, it's that, like death and taxes, corruption has always been with
us and probably always will be, and that it's a useless thing to make it a
centerpiece in your judgment of any institution's value. Complaining about
it is like complaining because the sun comes up in the east, when you'd
rather have it come up in the west. If there's so much corruption in an
institution that it can't do its job, then it's time to reform that
institution's oversight and regulation. And that's true with many unions,
particularly the big, old ones that fought the most brutal battles in past
decades. They have deep and abiding streaks of ruthlessness and corruption
in them.

No, I don't object to unions, I told my employees when they wanted to
decert that I would demand they form an in-house union in order to
present a collective bargaining unit rather than reach a separate peace
with each employee individually. When the USW got word of a potential
decert, the rushed out 20 goons (no better word) to have "individual"
talks with the members. Many told me later that they felt threatened.

So, you've had a bad experience that colors your attitude. It would be
interesting to know the nature of the "threats" that your employees
claimed.


Read about unions in Japan. That's how it should be.

Oh, I've read about them. If you ever read David Halberstam's _The
Reckoning_, you know the history of Japan's "unions," which are total
captives of factory management. Japan's unions right after WWII started
off like US unions, only they lost the physical fight. Management goons
broke a lot of bones to get those unions that you think are "how it should
be." Now they're as obedient to management as well-trained puppy dogs. And
that's why, as Europe's EC analysts said many years ago, Japanese workers
were "workaholics living in rabbit hutches."

--
Ed Huntress


I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and taxes?

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip
In other words, show me a big institution or a big money position that
isn't ultimately driven by greed, and that isn't shot through with
corruption, petty or grand.

Try Cargill Industries. One of the biggest companies ever. My sister
worked for them for 7 years in upper management and states that they are
VERY anti-corruption. You only hear about the bad ones, there are many,
many good ones.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and
taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad. They're
really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian neighborhoods
around here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The ones in your yard
are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and then
steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the leaves and
the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble ("hearts of
dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like artichoke hearts. Be
warned, though: you have to wash the hell out of them to get the sand out.
Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like chicory in
your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then roast them until
they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than commercially roasted coffee.
Grind up the roots and use like coffee. Dandelion is a close relative of
chicory.

Now, do you have any cattails on your property? Some parts are edible, you
know...

--
Ed Huntress

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip
In other words, show me a big institution or a big money position that
isn't ultimately driven by greed, and that isn't shot through with
corruption, petty or grand.

Try Cargill Industries. One of the biggest companies ever. My sister
worked for them for 7 years in upper management and states that they are
VERY anti-corruption. You only hear about the bad ones, there are many,
many good ones.

Cargill has been sucking on the ag-subsidy teat for decades. Over a 7-year
period they collected over $800 million in export subsidies alone. You don't
consdier that to be greed or corruption? I do.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and
taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad.
They're really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian
neighborhoods around here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The
ones in your yard are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and
then steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the
leaves and the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble
("hearts of dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like
artichoke hearts. Be warned, though: you have to wash the hell out of
them to get the sand out. Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like
chicory in your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then
roast them until they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than
commercially roasted coffee. Grind up the roots and use like coffee.
Dandelion is a close relative of chicory.

LMAO,
You bet me to it Ed.
My grandfather did ALL of those things.
He wouldn't have understood anyone throwing away perfectly good food.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and
taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad.
They're really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian
neighborhoods around here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The
ones in your yard are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and
then steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the
leaves and the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble
("hearts of dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like
artichoke hearts. Be warned, though: you have to wash the hell out of
them to get the sand out. Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like
chicory in your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then
roast them until they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than
commercially roasted coffee. Grind up the roots and use like coffee.
Dandelion is a close relative of chicory.

LMAO,
You bet me to it Ed.
My grandfather did ALL of those things.
He wouldn't have understood anyone throwing away perfectly good food.

We would have gotten along, I'll bet. Maybe he knew how to make arrowhead
roots taste like something. There are so many of them, and they're so easy
to get out of the muck, that it's a shame they don't have more flavor.

I'll bet I could have shown him how to get the good part out of a surf clam,
too. Nobody eats those things, but they're delicious if you know what to do
with them. Oh, and blowfish...g

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop
weeding, treating and killing them and just accept them as them
like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad.
They're really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian
neighborhoods around here you pay good money for cultivated ones.
The ones in your yard are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well,
and then steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the
leaves and the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble
("hearts of dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like
artichoke hearts. Be warned, though: you have to wash the hell out
of them to get the sand out. Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like
chicory in your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then
roast them until they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than
commercially roasted coffee. Grind up the roots and use like coffee.
Dandelion is a close relative of chicory.

LMAO,
You bet me to it Ed.
My grandfather did ALL of those things.
He wouldn't have understood anyone throwing away perfectly good food.

We would have gotten along, I'll bet. Maybe he knew how to make
arrowhead roots taste like something. There are so many of them, and
they're so easy to get out of the muck, that it's a shame they don't
have more flavor.

I'll bet I could have shown him how to get the good part out of a
surf clam, too. Nobody eats those things, but they're delicious if
you know what to do with them. Oh, and blowfish...g

My Grandmother and Grandfather on my Moms side were first generation Italian
immigrants Ed.
I don't know about clams or blowfish but where I saw their farm as a place
that raised corn they saw in as natures Deli G

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

John R. Carroll wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop
weeding, treating and killing them and just accept them as them
like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad.
They're really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian
neighborhoods around here you pay good money for cultivated ones.
The ones in your yard are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well,
and then steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the
leaves and the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble
("hearts of dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like
artichoke hearts. Be warned, though: you have to wash the hell out
of them to get the sand out. Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like
chicory in your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then
roast them until they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than
commercially roasted coffee. Grind up the roots and use like coffee.
Dandelion is a close relative of chicory.

LMAO,
You bet me to it Ed.
My grandfather did ALL of those things.
He wouldn't have understood anyone throwing away perfectly good food.

We would have gotten along, I'll bet. Maybe he knew how to make
arrowhead roots taste like something. There are so many of them, and
they're so easy to get out of the muck, that it's a shame they don't
have more flavor.

I'll bet I could have shown him how to get the good part out of a
surf clam, too. Nobody eats those things, but they're delicious if
you know what to do with them. Oh, and blowfish...g


My Grandmother and Grandfather on my Moms side were first generation Italian
immigrants Ed.
I don't know about clams or blowfish but where I saw their farm as a place
that raised corn they saw in as natures Deli G




Blowfish are the tastiest fish I have ever eaten. Just make sure you
don't cut into the abdominal cavity. I was shown how to cut juxt the
backs off of them. I battered some up and deep fried them once. Pan
frying them works too. Another real good tasting fish is eel or is eel
not a fish. Slimy suckers but get beyond the slime and screwing your
fishing line up, they taste almost as good as blowfish.

John

"john" wrote in message
...


John R. Carroll wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
m...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop
weeding, treating and killing them and just accept them as them
like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad.
They're really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian
neighborhoods around here you pay good money for cultivated ones.
The ones in your yard are just as good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well,
and then steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the
leaves and the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble
("hearts of dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like
artichoke hearts. Be warned, though: you have to wash the hell out
of them to get the sand out. Steam or boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like
chicory in your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then
roast them until they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than
commercially roasted coffee. Grind up the roots and use like coffee.
Dandelion is a close relative of chicory.

LMAO,
You bet me to it Ed.
My grandfather did ALL of those things.
He wouldn't have understood anyone throwing away perfectly good food.

We would have gotten along, I'll bet. Maybe he knew how to make
arrowhead roots taste like something. There are so many of them, and
they're so easy to get out of the muck, that it's a shame they don't
have more flavor.

I'll bet I could have shown him how to get the good part out of a
surf clam, too. Nobody eats those things, but they're delicious if
you know what to do with them. Oh, and blowfish...g


My Grandmother and Grandfather on my Moms side were first generation
Italian
immigrants Ed.
I don't know about clams or blowfish but where I saw their farm as a
place
that raised corn they saw in as natures Deli G




Blowfish are the tastiest fish I have ever eaten. Just make sure you
don't cut into the abdominal cavity. I was shown how to cut juxt the
backs off of them.

If they showed you the *really* slick way to do it, you make just one cut
and the entire piece of meat pops out in one hand, while the rest of the
fish, guts and all, stays in the other. We used to have cleaning contests
for those things and I could do 25 in less than three minutes. They're the
shmoos of the sea. g When there are a lot of them around and they show up
in the fish markets, they often call them "ocean drumsticks." And they do
look like a chicken drumstick when they're dressed -- if chickens had tails,
anyway.

I battered some up and deep fried them once. Pan frying them works too.
Another real good tasting fish is eel or is eel not a fish. Slimy suckers
but get beyond the slime and screwing your fishing line up, they taste
almost as good as blowfish.

Cut them into sections about 6 inches long and skewer them on a hotdog
stick; cook over an open fire. Most of the fat burns off that way, and
they're delicious.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad. They're
really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian neighborhoods around
here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The ones in your yard are just as
good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and then
steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the leaves and
the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble ("hearts of
dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like artichoke hearts. Be warned,
though: you have to wash the hell out of them to get the sand out. Steam or
boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like chicory in
your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then roast them until
they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than commercially roasted coffee.
Grind up the roots and use like coffee. Dandelion is a close relative of
chicory.

Now, do you have any cattails on your property? Some parts are edible, you
know...

--
Ed Huntress


You forgot Dandelion wine!

It's too bad that my property is in perpetual shade by neighboring Maple trees.
I can't grow a single cherry tomato at home but at the factory we grow enough to
be sick of them by the end of the season.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:13 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad. They're
really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian neighborhoods around
here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The ones in your yard are just as
good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and then
steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the leaves and
the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble ("hearts of
dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like artichoke hearts. Be warned,
though: you have to wash the hell out of them to get the sand out. Steam or
boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like chicory in
your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then roast them until
they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than commercially roasted coffee.
Grind up the roots and use like coffee. Dandelion is a close relative of
chicory.

Now, do you have any cattails on your property? Some parts are edible, you
know...

--
Ed Huntress


You forgot Dandelion wine!

It's too bad that my property is in perpetual shade by neighboring Maple trees.
I can't grow a single cherry tomato at home but at the factory we grow enough to
be sick of them by the end of the season.



Shade? Whats that?


"[L]iberals are afraid to state what they truly believe in, for to do so would result in even less votes than they currently receive. Their
methodology is to lie about their real agenda in the hopes of regaining power, at which point they will do whatever they damn well please. The problem is they have concealed and obfuscated for so long that, as a group, they themselves are no longer sure of their goals. They are a collection of wild-eyed splinter groups, all holding a grab-bag of dreams and wishes. Some want a Socialist, secular-humanist state, others the repeal of the Second Amendment. Some want same sex/different species marriage, others want voting rights for trees, fish, coal and bugs. Some want cradle to grave care and
complete subservience to the government nanny state, others want a culture that walks in lockstep and speaks only with intonations of political correctness. I view the American liberals in much the same way I view the competing factions of Islamic
fundamentalists. The latter hate each other to the core, and only join
forces to attack the US or Israel. The former hate themselves to the core, and only join forces to attack George Bush and conservatives." --Ron Marr

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:23:45 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:13 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad. They're
really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian neighborhoods around
here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The ones in your yard are just as
good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and then
steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the leaves and
the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble ("hearts of
dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like artichoke hearts. Be warned,
though: you have to wash the hell out of them to get the sand out. Steam or
boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like chicory in
your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then roast them until
they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than commercially roasted coffee.
Grind up the roots and use like coffee. Dandelion is a close relative of
chicory.

Now, do you have any cattails on your property? Some parts are edible, you
know...

--
Ed Huntress


You forgot Dandelion wine!

It's too bad that my property is in perpetual shade by neighboring Maple trees.
I can't grow a single cherry tomato at home but at the factory we grow enough to
be sick of them by the end of the season.



Shade? Whats that?


It's what you find under the trailer. That dark spot.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries

john wrote:
John R. Carroll wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:

"John R. Carroll" wrote in
message ...

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

Another real good tasting fish is eel or is
eel not a fish. Slimy suckers but get beyond the slime and screwing
your fishing line up, they taste almost as good as blowfish.

My Grandmother cooked up a bunch of eel on occasion but she didn't like them
and only did it for the old man.
That's fresh water eel. Sal****er is awful.

--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com

On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:59:15 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:23:45 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:04:13 -0400, "Tom Gardner"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

snip

I have Dandelions every year in my front yard, I should stop weeding,
treating and killing them and just accept them as them like death and taxes?

First, pick the young leaves in the spring and use them in salad. They're
really tasty and they give salad a nice tang. In Italian neighborhoods around
here you pay good money for cultivated ones. The ones in your yard are just as
good.

When they get a little older, pick the leaves and wash them well, and then
steam or boil them. They're better than spinach.

Later in the season you can dig up the plant and cut off both the leaves and
the root, leaving a little junction the size of a marble ("hearts of
dandelion"). These are a real delicacy, much like artichoke hearts. Be warned,
though: you have to wash the hell out of them to get the sand out. Steam or
boil.

Finally, if you're a real cheapskate, or curious, or if you like chicory in
your coffee, dig up the roots, scrub them well, and then roast them until
they're fairly dark, just barely lighter than commercially roasted coffee.
Grind up the roots and use like coffee. Dandelion is a close relative of
chicory.

Now, do you have any cattails on your property? Some parts are edible, you
know...

--
Ed Huntress


You forgot Dandelion wine!

It's too bad that my property is in perpetual shade by neighboring Maple trees.
I can't grow a single cherry tomato at home but at the factory we grow enough to
be sick of them by the end of the season.



Shade? Whats that?


It's what you find under the trailer. That dark spot.


tschus
pyotr


Hummm...out where you live a dog is called shade?

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner
wrote on Wed, 23 Jul 2008 02:16:52
-0700 in rec.crafts.metalworking :
On Tue, 22 Jul 2008 06:59:15 -0800, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunner Asch
wrote on Tue, 22 Jul 2008 01:23:45 -0700
in rec.crafts.metalworking :
You forgot Dandelion wine!

It's too bad that my property is in perpetual shade by neighboring Maple trees.
I can't grow a single cherry tomato at home but at the factory we grow enough to
be sick of them by the end of the season.



Shade? Whats that?


It's what you find under the trailer. That dark spot.


Hummm...out where you live a dog is called shade?

The dark furred one is called "Midnight", the grey colored one is
called "Shade", the puppy is called "Shade of Midnight", and the
light colored one is called "Cat Who Walks Through Walls."
Is long story.

pyotr

(I knew this would happen! Should have said "It's what you find under
the trailer. That dark spot, where the dog is resting.")
--
pyotr filipivich
"I had just been through hell and must have looked like death warmed
over walking into the saloon, because when I asked the bartender
whether they served zombies he said, ‘Sure, what'll you have?'"
from I Hear America Swinging by Peter DeVries