Jon Anderson wrote in news:Ca-
:

Question: Would the dinosaurs still be alive if they had a
union? G

Answer: The reason that they lasted millions of years was that Unions
hadn't been invented yet. VBG

Jon Anderson wrote:

Thumbing through the March 10th Times at my dentists office
this morning, happened across this tidbit from an article by
Joe Klein discussing middle class voters in Ohio:

--------
"This income gap is the biggest issue for me," Bob Currens,
a Republican painting contractor who was thinking about
voting Democratic - for Obama - for the first time, told me
after the church service. His wife Kim joined us and said
Bob had been a salaried worker at AK Steel, "and the union
was a big problem there. They worked at not working."
Eventually there was a lockout - and AK Steel reorganized
itself as a nonunion shop. "They're making big profits now,"
Bob said. "You wonder why there can't be some middle ground"
between the old-fashioned inflexible union and "the CEOs
selling out these companies, shipping jobs overseas."


I'm in a contrary mood today Jon, I've noticed that at least in Michigan,
companies are busy using temp workers they discard at will like a used
condom, cut into current wages by downgrading clasifications and run fairly
wild changing rules at will.

I hate unions, but I have the feeling that the decline of unions may end
soon. For a long time, companies worked hard to keep their employees happy
enough to not want a union, now there is a trend that says the Union is
dead, the company can do what it wants to. There will be pushback.

Wes

Thumbing through the March 10th Times at my dentists office
this morning, happened across this tidbit from an article by
Joe Klein discussing middle class voters in Ohio:

--------
"This income gap is the biggest issue for me," Bob Currens,
a Republican painting contractor who was thinking about
voting Democratic - for Obama - for the first time, told me
after the church service. His wife Kim joined us and said
Bob had been a salaried worker at AK Steel, "and the union
was a big problem there. They worked at not working."
Eventually there was a lockout - and AK Steel reorganized
itself as a nonunion shop. "They're making big profits now,"
Bob said. "You wonder why there can't be some middle ground"
between the old-fashioned inflexible union and "the CEOs
selling out these companies, shipping jobs overseas."
--------


Of course, Ron will likely point out the top guys are making
too much money. Maybe so, but they saved the company, and
the workers still have jobs. Well, maybe not the former
union workers, but still, American workers. Jobs NOT sent
overseas.

Question: Would the dinosaurs still be alive if they had a
union? G



Du

Wes wrote:

I hate unions, but I have the feeling that the decline of unions may end
soon. For a long time, companies worked hard to keep their employees happy
enough to not want a union, now there is a trend that says the Union is
dead, the company can do what it wants to. There will be pushback.

I hate them too. And I agree with you on this score. Here in
Grass Valley there are no big time players as in larger
manufacturing areas. But many employers have a "you're lucky
to be working up here at all, I have a stack of resumes from
people that would love to have your job" mentality. That's
why I struck out on my own years ago.

-IF- resurgent union activity would work more just to keep
the jobs here at a decent, (not inflated) wage, I might be
open to their return. They would have to look at the big
picture though and strike a balance on wages and benefits.

Like it or not, the world has changed and will continue to
do so. Pushing the tactics of the early 20th century in the
21st century, isn't going to work well anymore.


Jon

It looks like some US Unions could do with a dose of learning to understand
global economics.

The bigger and more powerful TUs in Europe have been focusing their efforts
on training, education, health, safety and environment - since the 1980s.
Upskilling and multi skilling have been at the forefront of their efforts.
With an educated, highly skilled workforce, who work safely, they cant be
beaten by low skilled third world labour countries. Sweden's SAAB, Finland's
NOKIA, Germany's car and truck industry........

Roger wrote:

It looks like some US Unions could do with a dose of learning to understand
global economics.

The bigger and more powerful TUs in Europe have been focusing their efforts
on training, education, health, safety and environment - since the 1980s.
Upskilling and multi skilling have been at the forefront of their efforts.
With an educated, highly skilled workforce, who work safely, they cant be
beaten by low skilled third world labour countries. Sweden's SAAB, Finland's
NOKIA, Germany's car and truck industry........


Didn't Nokia have massive layoffs not too long ago?


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Jon Anderson wrote:

Wes wrote:

I hate unions, but I have the feeling that the decline of unions may end
soon. For a long time, companies worked hard to keep their employees happy
enough to not want a union, now there is a trend that says the Union is
dead, the company can do what it wants to. There will be pushback.

I hate them too. And I agree with you on this score. Here in
Grass Valley there are no big time players as in larger
manufacturing areas. But many employers have a "you're lucky
to be working up here at all, I have a stack of resumes from
people that would love to have your job" mentality. That's
why I struck out on my own years ago.


Heard the same line at Microdyne about two years before L3-com bought
them. They hired an efficiency expert, and his second day he called a
meeting of all the techs. His opening line was, there are at least 100
techs in Orlando who want your jobs. We laughed and told him to either
let us get back to work, or to shut the place down and move the plant to
Orlando.

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.


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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 17:38:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Roger wrote:

It looks like some US Unions could do with a dose of learning to understand
global economics.

The bigger and more powerful TUs in Europe have been focusing their efforts
on training, education, health, safety and environment - since the 1980s.
Upskilling and multi skilling have been at the forefront of their efforts.
With an educated, highly skilled workforce, who work safely, they cant be
beaten by low skilled third world labour countries. Sweden's SAAB, Finland's
NOKIA, Germany's car and truck industry........


Didn't Nokia have massive layoffs not too long ago?
===========
They did indeed. Stiffed the community [Bochum] in Germany that
had put up lots of money for Industrial Development. Nokia got a
better deal, a new plant, and cheaper labor in Romania.

see
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...185179,00.html

video
http://www.dw-world.de/popups/popup_...2BJob%2B Cuts


This used to be called "killing the goose that laid the golden
eggs."


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
-------------------------------------------
He that will not apply new remedies,
must expect new evils:
for Time is the greatest innovator: and
if Time, of course, alter things to the worse,
and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better,
what shall be the end?

Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman.
Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.


OOPS!


Jon

Roger wrote:
It looks like some US Unions could do with a dose of learning to understand
global economics.

The bigger and more powerful TUs in Europe have been focusing their efforts
on training, education, health, safety and environment - since the 1980s.
Upskilling and multi skilling have been at the forefront of their efforts.
With an educated, highly skilled workforce, who work safely, they cant be
beaten by low skilled third world labour countries. Sweden's SAAB, Finland's
NOKIA, Germany's car and truck industry........



More importantly, Right To Work laws have resulted in decimation of
"lost" days in europe, so I don't wonder that the unions are becoming
responsible to their workers who actually want to work - or they'll
stop payind dues. Overdue here... /m

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

snip
Question: Would the dinosaurs still be alive if they had a union? G

Du
**********************************************
It's not so much the rank-and-file workers that are the problem, it's the Union
Muckety-Mucks that have worked up through the system to a position of power and
total incompetence. They have the old mind-set and usually lack any education
beyond high school. It's their turn at the trough. If the unions hired their
Muckety-Mucks with the education, intelligence and skill sets needed to actually
serve the rank-and-file, American productivity, wages, benefits and pride would
SOAR! Companies would beg to get unionized.

But no, American unions are stuck-on-stupid. Is there such a thing as a degree
in union management?

The union's idea of productivity is when the steward and a "couple of the
boys" get you in a corner and tell you to slow down because you're making
the others look bad, and if everyone did as much as you can do in a day,
they will lay some people off. But that won't be a problem for a guy like
you, because you'll already be laid off because of a busted kneecap. Then
they part with a glare and a meaningless, "Have a nice day." Don't test
them. They mean it.

"Tom Gardner" wrote in news:SYFDj.919$p24.842
@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com:

Is there such a thing as a degree in union management?

Ask Jimmie Hoffa.

"Wes" wrote in message
...
Jon Anderson wrote:

Thumbing through the March 10th Times at my dentists office
this morning, happened across this tidbit from an article by
Joe Klein discussing middle class voters in Ohio:

--------
"This income gap is the biggest issue for me," Bob Currens,
a Republican painting contractor who was thinking about
voting Democratic - for Obama - for the first time, told me
after the church service. His wife Kim joined us and said
Bob had been a salaried worker at AK Steel, "and the union
was a big problem there. They worked at not working."
Eventually there was a lockout - and AK Steel reorganized
itself as a nonunion shop. "They're making big profits now,"
Bob said. "You wonder why there can't be some middle ground"
between the old-fashioned inflexible union and "the CEOs
selling out these companies, shipping jobs overseas."


I'm in a contrary mood today Jon, I've noticed that at least in Michigan,
companies are busy using temp workers they discard at will like a used
condom, cut into current wages by downgrading clasifications and run
fairly
wild changing rules at will.

I hate unions, but I have the feeling that the decline of unions may end
soon. For a long time, companies worked hard to keep their employees
happy
enough to not want a union, now there is a trend that says the Union is
dead, the company can do what it wants to. There will be pushback.

Wes

Again, what is funny is to hear this union bashing from ordinary working
class folks, not bosses. They are just the people who get the most out of
unions. It's understandable why bosses are anti union, they ususally cost
them money. But for ordinary workers to bash unions is nonsense. As the
statistics the Ron has posted show time and time again, if you are in a
union you have better pay, benefits, and working conditions than the people
who work as individuals. So it's really pretty darn stupid for working class
men to bash the unions. They may as well bash themselves.

As for the "story", that sounds like bull**** too. If all a company does is
replace union workers with non union workers that isn't enough to save a
company by itself because the savings in labor isn't that much. As for it
"making big bucks now" I'd like to know why they didn't make big bucks
before even though they had a union. Sounds like another made up story by
anti union folks again. No proof, all heresay, a friend told a friend. It
doesn't pass the smell test for anyone that is capable of critical thinking.
But it does sound good if you want to believe that unions are all bad. Right
wing anti union propaganda disguised as coming from regular folk. Not
believeable.


Hawke

"Roger" wrote in message
...
It looks like some US Unions could do with a dose of learning to
understand
global economics.

The bigger and more powerful TUs in Europe have been focusing their
efforts
on training, education, health, safety and environment - since the 1980s.
Upskilling and multi skilling have been at the forefront of their efforts.
With an educated, highly skilled workforce, who work safely, they cant be
beaten by low skilled third world labour countries. Sweden's SAAB,
Finland's
NOKIA, Germany's car and truck industry........


More proof that Europeans are smarter than Americans, their businessmen are
less greedy too.

Hawke

"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
...

"Jon Anderson" wrote in message
...

snip
Question: Would the dinosaurs still be alive if they had a union? G

Du
**********************************************
It's not so much the rank-and-file workers that are the problem, it's the
Union Muckety-Mucks that have worked up through the system to a position
of power and total incompetence. They have the old mind-set and usually
lack any education beyond high school. It's their turn at the trough. If
the unions hired their Muckety-Mucks with the education, intelligence and
skill sets needed to actually serve the rank-and-file, American
productivity, wages, benefits and pride would SOAR! Companies would beg
to get unionized.

But no, American unions are stuck-on-stupid. Is there such a thing as a
degree in union management?

I was in a union for 37 years. In that time, you could draw a line on a
graph that went down down down business agents, dispatchers, and
stewards. The ones above them didn't deserve a line. At the end, the BAs
and stewards condoned and allowed things they wouldn't have long ago.
Throughout the whole time line, I'm sure there were plenty of envelopes
passed, but at the end, the leadership was laughable, and representation was
nonexistant. The only ones that were really making any money were the ones
working at the hall. Hell, the know nothing secretaries were getting
journeyman wages and accelerated benefits.

Oh, well.

Steve

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.

Jon Anderson wrote:

Wes wrote:

I hate unions, but I have the feeling that the decline of unions may end
soon. For a long time, companies worked hard to keep their employees happy
enough to not want a union, now there is a trend that says the Union is
dead, the company can do what it wants to. There will be pushback.

I hate them too. And I agree with you on this score. Here in
Grass Valley there are no big time players as in larger
manufacturing areas. But many employers have a "you're lucky
to be working up here at all, I have a stack of resumes from
people that would love to have your job" mentality. That's
why I struck out on my own years ago.

I keep looking for something I'd be willing to take a shot at doing my own
thing on. I have a great deal of respect for those that decide to take the
risk and go solo.

-IF- resurgent union activity would work more just to keep
the jobs here at a decent, (not inflated) wage, I might be
open to their return. They would have to look at the big
picture though and strike a balance on wages and benefits.

Like it or not, the world has changed and will continue to
do so. Pushing the tactics of the early 20th century in the
21st century, isn't going to work well anymore.

Oh yes, we are in a Brave New World. Anyone that hasn't realized that times
are a changing is either not paying attention or has their head firmly stuck
in the sand.

Wes

"Tom Gardner" wrote:

But no, American unions are stuck-on-stupid. Is there such a thing as a degree
in union management?


Liberal poly-sci courses?

WEs

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.


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Hawke wrote:

As for the "story", that sounds like bull**** too. If all a company does is
replace union workers with non union workers that isn't enough to save a
company by itself because the savings in labor isn't that much.

Apparently you overlooked the comment "They worked at not
working".... There are plenty of people that work hard at
doing as little as possible and trying to get top dollar for
it. Most of these people gravitate to unions. I've seen a
few in regular job shops. Some are very talented and manage
to hang on long enough to rise to management where they can
really excel at looking busy while doing little that is
productive.


But it does sound good if you want to believe that unions are all bad.

Never said all unions are bad. Just more than enough to
leave a bad taste in the mouths of those that feel
productivity should be the measure of compensation, not
seniority.


Jon

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.

Cydrome Leader wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.


I was the only one on the production floor with a couple hundred IC
data books by my bench, and was usually the one who had to qualify new
parts, or do first run on ECOs to verify the change worked in
production. These were the 1200, 1400, 700 1620 and 1670 series that
show up on eBay from time to time.


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Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.


I was the only one on the production floor with a couple hundred IC
data books by my bench, and was usually the one who had to qualify new
parts, or do first run on ECOs to verify the change worked in
production. These were the 1200, 1400, 700 1620 and 1670 series that
show up on eBay from time to time.

I'm glad I never tossed any of my semiconductor databooks. There's scans
of datasheets for some (I stress the some part) parts on the internet,
many of which are incomplete and of poor quality. Nothing comes close the
the actual manufacturer books though.

Cydrome Leader wrote:

I'm glad I never tossed any of my semiconductor databooks. There's scans
of datasheets for some (I stress the some part) parts on the internet,
many of which are incomplete and of poor quality. Nothing comes close the
the actual manufacturer books though.


Two thirds of my library is data books I am still looking for a data
sheet for the NEC MC5800 hybrid IF/RF amp.


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One of the pro / con of ISO documentation...

My department starting with my job moved to India.
A whole new product line that proved a new process and passed
4 quadrant tests by our customer and our spec was trashed.
The new un-trained, under paid brand new engineers couldn't handle
SiGe process or system engineering. They had the specs and notes,
just not the experience needed nor want and interest to learn to
use some high tech instruments that wasn't taught in school.

Customer designs had to be altered to adapt to competitor parts
of lessor quality grade.

Life sucks in the fast track.

Martin

Martin H. Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
TSRA, Endowed; NRA LOH & Patron Member, Golden Eagle, Patriot's Medal.
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
IHMSA and NRA Metallic Silhouette maker & member.
http://lufkinced.com/


Cydrome Leader wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.
There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.

It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.


----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Hawke wrote:

"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to
do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how
to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.

And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why is it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great? From what
I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy that
there is no way they are any improvement over the government or unions. Yet
you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I forgot
you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths.

And you talk out your asshole. L3-com bought Microdyne becasue they
couldn't compete on qaulity, then they destroyed the company. nion has
nothing to do with it, but you're too stupid to understand.




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Bigbird wrote:


What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.


You are the second most qualifed on this earth, right behind your
union whore buddy, Ronnie.


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"Cydrome Leader" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to
do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how
to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.


And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why is it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great? From what
I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy that
there is no way they are any improvement over the government or unions. Yet
you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I forgot
you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths.

Hawke

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Tom Gardner" wrote:

But no, American unions are stuck-on-stupid. Is there such a thing as a
degree
in union management?


Liberal poly-sci courses?

WEs


What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.

Hawke

Hawke wrote in article
...



And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the
government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why is
it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great? From
what
I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy
that
there is no way they are any improvement over the government or unions.
Yet
you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I forgot
you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths.

Hawke






I know you won't answer this....you never do, but........

Please explain the difference in greed between YOU wanting to extract every
cent you can for your labor and a business owner wanting to extract every
cent he can for his investment of time and money.

Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not?

"Hawke" wrote:

What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.

So you are saying an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker is perfect
for union management? I do thank you for confirming what comprises Union
management.

Wes

--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

Cydrome Leader wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:

When L3-Com did close the plant and moved the work to a new plant in
Pennsylvania they quickly discovered that they couldn't build most of
the Microdyne products. The 200+ employees they laid off new how to do
the work, but the documentation couldn't teach a whole new staff how to
do the different jobs.

There again goes that vast difference between knowing what to do and
knowing how to do it.


It cost them millions in lost contracts, and they got less than half
what they were asking for the 120,000 Sq. ft. complex in Florida. I
knew more about those products than anyone else in engineering, at that
time.

AHAHAH

awesome story.


I was the only one on the production floor with a couple hundred IC
data books by my bench, and was usually the one who had to qualify new
parts, or do first run on ECOs to verify the change worked in
production. These were the 1200, 1400, 700 1620 and 1670 series that
show up on eBay from time to time.

Speaking of IC data books: Which of, IIRC, the Motorola 68000 series'
data books had a drawing of a drafting table with a pencil shoved
through it for a frontispiece?

John Husvar wrote:

Speaking of IC data books: Which of, IIRC, the Motorola 68000 series'
data books had a drawing of a drafting table with a pencil shoved
through it for a frontispiece?


I don't remember that one. The only 68000 series I had any
documentation on was the 68340 we used in the front panel of the
700/1620/1670 series, and a controller for some 100' Sat dishes.

Later printings of most of those manuals had most of the artwork
removed, and the required images scaled down to reduce printing costs.


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Hawke wrote:
And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly
whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the
government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why
is it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great?

Because BUSINESS creates jobs. Governments and unions do not create jobs.


Where'd you get that idea? Because it's wrong. Governments create jobs all
the time. Without the government's help our economy would stink. Unions
don't create jobs, that's true. But they only exist because of exploitation
of workers by management. Any place where workers are treated fairly there
aren't any unions. Want to get rid of unions for good? Make employers pay
their workers a fair rate and create a safe workplace and you'll never see a
union again.

Hawke

"*" wrote in message
news:01c889aa$f0071220$3790c3d8@race...


Hawke wrote in article
...



And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly
whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the
government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why is
it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great? From
what
I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy
that
there is no way they are any improvement over the government or unions.
Yet
you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I
forgot
you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths.

Hawke






I know you won't answer this....you never do, but........

Please explain the difference in greed between YOU wanting to extract
every
cent you can for your labor and a business owner wanting to extract every
cent he can for his investment of time and money.

Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not?


That's simple. It's because the owner believes that his contribution to the
combined effort it takes to produce a good or service is worth more than it
really is and that the workers' contribution is worth less than it really
is. It really boils down to what's fair. He doesn't want the worker to
receive a fair portion of what the business produces. A worker that is fair
wants a fair days wage for a honest day's work. A GREEDY owner wants to
exploit the worker by not giving him a fair portion of what the business
earns. He wants to do this so he can keep it all for himself. Take a
business that installs drywall. In the past he hired American workers and
paid the prevailing rate and benefits. Now he hires illegals, pays them 10
bucks and hour cash without benefits, and fires the American workers. That's
how the greedy guy does it. All he cares about is him getting ahead and no
one else. There are thousands of examples like this. My working for him and
wanting to be treated fairly is different. Selling my labor at fair market
value isn't exploiting anyone. Greedy owners exploit others' weakness for
his own gain. I'm sure you know of examples of this just as well as I do.
It's not uncommon.

Hawke

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Bigbird wrote:


What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.


You are the second most qualifed on this earth, right behind your
union whore buddy, Ronnie.

That would probably be the way you would see it. But as usual your opinion
is totally worthless. As are you as a person too.

Hawke

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Hawke" wrote:

What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.

So you are saying an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker is perfect
for union management? I do thank you for confirming what comprises Union
management.

Wes

Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the
people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around long
enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are a
lot of people in management too.

Hawke

Hawkie wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Bigbird wrote:


What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.


You are the second most qualifed on this earth, right behind your
union whore buddy, Ronnie.

That would probably be the way you would see it. But as usual your opinion
is totally worthless. As are you as a person too.

Hawke



That's only your pathetic attempt to make your wasted life worth
something to you, big bird. I haven't seen one post from you discussing
tools, metalworking, or helping anyone with anything. All you ever do
is condemn anyone who disagrees with your sadly twisted view of the
world.


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Hawke wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Hawke" wrote:

What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.

So you are saying an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker is perfect
for union management? I do thank you for confirming what comprises Union
management.

Wes

Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the
people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around long
enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are a
lot of people in management too.

Hawke


In other words, anyone who makes more than you do is scum.


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