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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#41
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote:
Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around long enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are a lot of people in management too. Unions are not totally useless if done right. The problem is doing it right. If the members think getting big bucks is the outcome of joining a union, they are going to be disapointed. If they are looking for clear and fair work place rules and a seat at the table when changes are a coming, well maybe they will find some value. For example, management moved certain workers Good Friday holiday to Easter Sunday based on supporting one line at work. Good Friday is the published holiday, certain workers will be working Friday for straight pay while most of the plant has it off. I'd sign a card right now just to send a message to headquarters that the current plant manager in charge is running off the rails. Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#42
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Hawke wrote in article ... "*" wrote in message news:01c889aa$f0071220$3790c3d8@race... Hawke wrote in article ... And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly whine about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the government is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why is it that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great? From what I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy that there is no way they are any improvement over the government or unions. Yet you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I forgot you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths. Hawke I know you won't answer this....you never do, but........ Please explain the difference in greed between YOU wanting to extract every cent you can for your labor and a business owner wanting to extract every cent he can for his investment of time and money. Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not? That's simple. It's because the owner believes that his contribution to the combined effort it takes to produce a good or service is worth more than it really is and that the workers' contribution is worth less than it really is. He's invested his own time and, likely, thousands of dollars buying equipment, setting up facilities, etc. He pays SS taxes above and beyond what is deducted from your pay. He often pays property taxes on the facility and equipment. He often keeps workers on during slow times - paying them from his "excess" profits - even when they are not producing enough to cover their paychecks. In SOME industries, YOU carry in a few hundred dollars worth of hand tools.....but the first hour's worth of pay - less deductions - goes straight into your pocket. It really boils down to what's fair. He doesn't want the worker to receive a fair portion of what the business produces. A worker that is fair wants a fair days wage for a honest day's work. A GREEDY owner wants to exploit the worker by not giving him a fair portion of what the business earns. He wants to do this so he can keep it all for himself. Take a business that installs drywall. In the past he hired American workers and paid the prevailing rate and benefits. Now he hires illegals, pays them 10 bucks and hour cash without benefits, and fires the American workers. That's how the greedy guy does it. All he cares about is him getting ahead and no one else. I'm sure, when the union strikes, they are concerned about the business and how it will survive.....right? They would NEVER back a business owner's back to the wall in order to gain - would they? You talk a lot about "fairness", but the union seems to want to use every unfair tactic available to it just to squeeze a little more from "the Man". As I've said before, union shops - including teaching - are the most angry places I have ever worked. There are thousands of examples like this. My working for him and wanting to be treated fairly is different. Selling my labor at fair market value isn't exploiting anyone. Greedy owners exploit others' weakness for his own gain. I'm sure you know of examples of this just as well as I do. It's not uncommon. You assume EVERY business owner is greedy. Yet you give every business owner reason why the union is also greedy? Name calling isn't the best base for a business relationship. Walk into my shop and call me a "greedy SOB", and I'll guarantee you will regret it before everything is all said and done. Which of your ass cheeks has the union seal tattooed on it, and which ass cheek has the "libruls rule!" tattoo? (I'm assuming you went to a union tattoo parlor where spelling is not paramount.) |
#43
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone If you were really a nice guy, you would take your ignorant pro union and anti business crap somewhere else. and explain to you that I read many of the metalworking posts but I don't originate or comment on them because I don't have a lot of experience in that area. The areas I comment on are ones I have some knowledge about. You may have noticed that lots of people in this NG discuss plenty of issues aside from metal. I learn a lot from people who do have a lot of experience in metal. That is one reason I am here, to learn something about metalwork, not to teach. Then drop the crap and learn something. But I also like the other things discussed and that is why I participate in them and not in others. Hawke -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html |
#44
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Hawke wrote: No point in responding to your nonsense, it's not rational. Right. Anyone who doesn't kiss your ignorant ass isn't rational. Talk about having delusions of adequacy. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html |
#45
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not?
That's simple. It's because the owner believes that his contribution to the combined effort it takes to produce a good or service is worth more than it really is and that the workers' contribution is worth less than it really is. First off I just proved you wrong by answering your question. He's invested his own time and, likely, thousands of dollars buying equipment, setting up facilities, etc. He pays SS taxes above and beyond what is deducted from your pay. He often pays property taxes on the facility and equipment. He often keeps workers on during slow times - paying them from his "excess" profits - even when they are not producing enough to cover their paychecks. In SOME industries, YOU carry in a few hundred dollars worth of hand tools.....but the first hour's worth of pay - less deductions - goes straight into your pocket. It's true that the owner has to take a risk that the worker does not and that is one reason why the owner should get more than a worker does. Also his job of taking a risk, managing the business, and being responsible for everything that happens on the job makes his job more important than any worker. But it's a question of how much should the owner get compared to the workers; because if you don't have both then you don't have a profitable company, and everyone loses. It really boils down to what's fair. He doesn't want the worker to receive a fair portion of what the business produces. A worker that is fair wants a fair days wage for a honest day's work. A GREEDY owner wants to exploit the worker by not giving him a fair portion of what the business earns. He wants to do this so he can keep it all for himself. Take a business that installs drywall. In the past he hired American workers and paid the prevailing rate and benefits. Now he hires illegals, pays them 10 bucks and hour cash without benefits, and fires the American workers. That's how the greedy guy does it. All he cares about is him getting ahead and no one else. I'm sure, when the union strikes, they are concerned about the business and how it will survive.....right? They would NEVER back a business owner's back to the wall in order to gain - would they? You talk a lot about "fairness", but the union seems to want to use every unfair tactic available to it just to squeeze a little more from "the Man". As I've said before, union shops - including teaching - are the most angry places I have ever worked. So you changed the subject to unions and strikes when I pointed out how many owners take advantage of workers for their benefit. That must mean you know it's true. As for strikes a union does that as a last resort. Most union members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they think management isn't negotiating in good faith. They also know that if they force the business to close both sides lose. Over and over it's always the same, owners don't want to pay fair or prevailing wages. It doesn't matter how profitable the business, is if they can lower labor costs it puts more money in their pocket. If you don't make them play fair they will screw you. Are you really so gullible that you blindly trust all businesses to be fair? You know you're always getting a fair deal from used car dealers, mechanics, and other businessmen? It's the same for unions. They have to make sure they are getting treated fairly. Unfortunate isn't it, but that's the way it is. There are thousands of examples like this. My working for him and wanting to be treated fairly is different. Selling my labor at fair market value isn't exploiting anyone. Greedy owners exploit others' weakness for his own gain. I'm sure you know of examples of this just as well as I do. It's not uncommon. You assume EVERY business owner is greedy. No I don't. In fact most businesses are not bad but they are like people, there's good ones and there are bad ones. The bad ones give a bad name to the good ones. You see the problem if only a few business owners are greedy but they run the big companies. A few big bad apples makes a lot of problems. Lots of little businessmen don't do that much harm. For example a big hotel chain brings in a lot of Mexicans to work for cheap pay but that's all it takes to affect everyone. Yet you give every business owner reason why the union is also greedy? Unions aren't perfect. I never said they were but the main job they have is to negotiate fair deals with management. Owners always think the workers want too much and the workers think the same about the owners. Both are usually right. But that is why they negotiate and if you don't have a union representing you when you negotiate with a big company you take it in the shorts. Name calling isn't the best base for a business relationship. Walk into my shop and call me a "greedy SOB", and I'll guarantee you will regret it before everything is all said and done. Well, I am a big enough boy that I can say just about anything I want to anyone and not worry about them not liking it. If I had reason to believe you were a greedy SOB I'm here to tell you that I would say exactly that. If you took offense so be it. The difference between us is you couldn't call me any names and get me to physically attack you for it. I don't know about you. But I do know how to defend my self very well if you are unable to control your emotions. Which of your ass cheeks has the union seal tattooed on it, and which ass cheek has the "libruls rule!" tattoo? (I'm assuming you went to a union tattoo parlor where spelling is not paramount.) I'm too smart to have any tattoos, too old too. The only time in my life I was in a union was when I was a retail clerk when I was a fifteen year old box boy. I didn't like paying dues either. I'm pro union because I have a college education and know what America was like for workers before unions. I guess no one ever told you about those things. If you knew why unions were formed maybe you wouldn't be against them like a knee jerk right winger and make the mistake of thinking you have to be a liberal to be pro union. Hawke |
#46
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker
that wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job. You are the second most qualifed on this earth, right behind your union whore buddy, Ronnie. That would probably be the way you would see it. But as usual your opinion is totally worthless. As are you as a person too. Hawke That's only your pathetic attempt to make your wasted life worth something to you, big bird. I haven't seen one post from you discussing tools, metalworking, or helping anyone with anything. All you ever do is condemn anyone who disagrees with your sadly twisted view of the world. You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone and explain to you that I read many of the metalworking posts but I don't originate or comment on them because I don't have a lot of experience in that area. The areas I comment on are ones I have some knowledge about. You may have noticed that lots of people in this NG discuss plenty of issues aside from metal. I learn a lot from people who do have a lot of experience in metal. That is one reason I am here, to learn something about metalwork, not to teach. But I also like the other things discussed and that is why I participate in them and not in others. Hawke |
#47
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Hawke wrote: "Wes" wrote in message ... "Hawke" wrote: What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker that wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job. So you are saying an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker is perfect for union management? I do thank you for confirming what comprises Union management. Wes Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around long enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are a lot of people in management too. Hawke In other words, anyone who makes more than you do is scum. No point in responding to your nonsense, it's not rational. |
#48
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner |
#49
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Gunner wrote: On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Naw. He's out in the alley behind the butcher shop fighting the other dogs for the bones, and always loses to the prissy Poodles and trembling Chihuahuas. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html |
#50
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote in message ... snip---- Most union members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they think management isn't negotiating in good faith. Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do? Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable, and resisted by management. They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow down" mentality. I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath telling me I'm wrong. Harold |
#51
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip---- Most union members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they think management isn't negotiating in good faith. Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do? Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable, and resisted by management. They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow down" mentality. I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath telling me I'm wrong. Harold Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes. Hawke |
#52
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke |
#53
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:34:27 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote: "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message .net... "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip---- Most union members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they think management isn't negotiating in good faith. Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do? Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable, and resisted by management. They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow down" mentality. I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath telling me I'm wrong. Harold Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes. Hawke Good on ya' Bird. Now tell us about the Union at the Pratt & Whitney engine plant that claimed they had the right to limit the productivity of people working on piece work basis. And they went to court, and got a decision in their favor in local court. The case finally floated up the Supreme court who ruled against the Union. Nice people who weren't trying to get the piece work people more money (like you tell us the Union does), they tried to limit their income. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) |
#54
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote in message ... "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message . net... "Hawke" wrote in message ... snip---- Most union members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they think management isn't negotiating in good faith. Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do? Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable, and resisted by management. They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow down" mentality. I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath telling me I'm wrong. Harold Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes. Hawke The truth is well known to most of us. Unions have a way of killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. They're way too caught up with trying to convince lame brained morons that they're worth more than they are. The morons in question are the people that tell others to "slow down"-----sort of making themselves look good by hoping others look bad. Yeah------that's the kind of people we need in industry----lazy, shiftless go nowhere, do nothing kind of losers. No thanks-----I'm too proud to belong to a union. I am and was a self made man-----I didn't need someone to speak for me----my efforts spoke for themselves. Harold |
#55
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote in message ... "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Harold |
#56
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Hawke" wrote in message ... "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Harold Hawkie is a 'Usenet pain slut'. He likes to be knocked down, kicked, and violated over and over. If he didn't, he would find the appropriate place for his ignorant crap. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html |
#57
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:26:27 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote: "Hawke" wrote in message ... "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Harold In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed. Gunner |
#58
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Gunner wrote: In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed. Not to mention that he was mentally kneecapped, too. -- aioe.org is home to cowards and terrorists Add this line to your news proxy nfilter.dat file * drop Path:*aioe.org!not-for-mail to drop all aioe.org traffic. http://improve-usenet.org/index.html |
#59
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes. Hawke Good on ya' Bird. Now tell us about the Union at the Pratt & Whitney engine plant that claimed they had the right to limit the productivity of people working on piece work basis. And they went to court, and got a decision in their favor in local court. The case finally floated up the Supreme court who ruled against the Union. Nice people who weren't trying to get the piece work people more money (like you tell us the Union does), they tried to limit their income. Bruce-in-Bangkok (correct email address for reply) Look, unions are no different than any other organization. As a result you get all kinds. Some unions are run by thieves and liars and some by honorable men. I know for a fact that most unions don't want to go out on strike because they money they lose isn't made up by the new contract. Both sides lose in a strike and that is why unions try to avoid them, not because they are nice guys. You can give me examples of rotten things done by unions and I can come up with dirty corporate tricks, but remember strikes are pretty rare. Most of the time contracts are reached that both sides agree upon. Writers and owners, ball players and owners, teachers/nurses and the state. Most strikes are short too. All I'm saying is that it's not in the union's interest to go out on strike and not for very long. So they avoid it. Of course there are examples where they do the opposite but that is the exception not the rule. I'm not really a defender of unions except to the extent that I think they are a necessary evil. Hawke |
#60
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? First off, I'm never unarmed. You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Secondly, you've got it backwards, pal. But then you're probably a guy who thinks Bush is a good president too. Hawke |
#61
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Harold and Susan Vordos wrote: "Hawke" wrote in message ... "Gunner" wrote in message ... On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell" wrote: Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Harold Hawkie is a 'Usenet pain slut'. He likes to be knocked down, kicked, and violated over and over. If he didn't, he would find the appropriate place for his ignorant crap. I have to give you your due. You are the master when it comes to ignorance. Hawke |
#62
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
Hawke wrote: You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw you a bone Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night? Gunner Just like you popgunner. Hawke Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed? You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner. Harold In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed. Gunner That's a good one coming from someone who has to killfile everyone that he can't match wits with. And look who's talking, a guy who's only got a half a wit on his best day. Why else can't he come up with anything besides homosexual references every time in a vain attempt to win an argument? Hawke |
#63
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message ... Gunner wrote: In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed. Not to mention that he was mentally kneecapped, too. I see where you came up with that brilliant one. You remembered that you are physically "kneecapped". Very clever, not! Hawke |
#64
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote in news:13ubo46kbjkbb03
@corp.supernews.com: And look who's talking, a guy who's only got a half a wit on his best day. So you have finally admitted it! Somehow, I didn't think that you'd ever see it. This must have been YOUR Best of the Best Day! |
#65
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Hawke" wrote in
: First off, I'm never unarmed. NERF balls don't count. |
#66
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Union productivity..... not!
"Eregon" wrote in message ... "Hawke" wrote in : First off, I'm never unarmed. NERF balls don't count. Properly placed in the trachea .............. |
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