Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Default Union productivity..... not!

"Hawke" wrote:

Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the
people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around long
enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are a
lot of people in management too.



Unions are not totally useless if done right. The problem is doing it right.
If the members think getting big bucks is the outcome of joining a union,
they are going to be disapointed. If they are looking for clear and fair
work place rules and a seat at the table when changes are a coming, well
maybe they will find some value.

For example, management moved certain workers Good Friday holiday to Easter
Sunday based on supporting one line at work. Good Friday is the published
holiday, certain workers will be working Friday for straight pay while most
of the plant has it off.

I'd sign a card right now just to send a message to headquarters that the
current plant manager in charge is running off the rails.


Wes
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Default Union productivity..... not!



Hawke wrote in article
...

"*" wrote in message
news:01c889aa$f0071220$3790c3d8@race...


Hawke wrote in article
...



And these are the people you put so much faith in as you constantly

whine
about how lazy and incompetent union people are and how bad the

government
is. Looks to me like the people in business aren't any better. So why

is
it
that it's all the time business is so great, business is so great?

From
what
I've seen business and businessmen are so stupid, corrupt, and greedy

that
there is no way they are any improvement over the government or

unions.
Yet
you love them and hate the others. That makes no sense. Oh yeah, I

forgot
you guys are always talking out of both sides of your mouths.

Hawke






I know you won't answer this....you never do, but........

Please explain the difference in greed between YOU wanting to extract

every
cent you can for your labor and a business owner wanting to extract

every
cent he can for his investment of time and money.

Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not?



That's simple. It's because the owner believes that his contribution to

the
combined effort it takes to produce a good or service is worth more than

it
really is and that the workers' contribution is worth less than it really
is.



He's invested his own time and, likely, thousands of dollars buying
equipment, setting up facilities, etc.

He pays SS taxes above and beyond what is deducted from your pay.

He often pays property taxes on the facility and equipment.

He often keeps workers on during slow times - paying them from his "excess"
profits - even when they are not producing enough to cover their paychecks.

In SOME industries, YOU carry in a few hundred dollars worth of hand
tools.....but the first hour's worth of pay - less deductions - goes
straight into your pocket.


It really boils down to what's fair. He doesn't want the worker to
receive a fair portion of what the business produces. A worker that is

fair
wants a fair days wage for a honest day's work. A GREEDY owner wants to
exploit the worker by not giving him a fair portion of what the business
earns. He wants to do this so he can keep it all for himself. Take a
business that installs drywall. In the past he hired American workers and
paid the prevailing rate and benefits. Now he hires illegals, pays them

10
bucks and hour cash without benefits, and fires the American workers.

That's
how the greedy guy does it. All he cares about is him getting ahead and

no
one else.



I'm sure, when the union strikes, they are concerned about the business and
how it will survive.....right?

They would NEVER back a business owner's back to the wall in order to gain
- would they?

You talk a lot about "fairness", but the union seems to want to use every
unfair tactic available to it just to squeeze a little more from "the Man".

As I've said before, union shops - including teaching - are the most angry
places I have ever worked.


There are thousands of examples like this. My working for him and
wanting to be treated fairly is different. Selling my labor at fair

market
value isn't exploiting anyone. Greedy owners exploit others' weakness for
his own gain. I'm sure you know of examples of this just as well as I do.
It's not uncommon.


You assume EVERY business owner is greedy.

Yet you give every business owner reason why the union is also greedy?

Name calling isn't the best base for a business relationship.

Walk into my shop and call me a "greedy SOB", and I'll guarantee you will
regret it before everything is all said and done.


Which of your ass cheeks has the union seal tattooed on it, and which ass
cheek has the "libruls rule!" tattoo? (I'm assuming you went to a union
tattoo parlor where spelling is not paramount.)


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Default Union productivity..... not!


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw
you a bone



If you were really a nice guy, you would take your ignorant pro union
and anti business crap somewhere else.


and explain to you that I read many of the metalworking posts but
I don't originate or comment on them because I don't have a lot of
experience in that area. The areas I comment on are ones I have some
knowledge about. You may have noticed that lots of people in this NG discuss
plenty of issues aside from metal. I learn a lot from people who do have a
lot of experience in metal. That is one reason I am here, to learn something
about metalwork, not to teach.



Then drop the crap and learn something.


But I also like the other things discussed
and that is why I participate in them and not in others.

Hawke



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Default Union productivity..... not!


Hawke wrote:

No point in responding to your nonsense, it's not rational.



Right. Anyone who doesn't kiss your ignorant ass isn't rational.
Talk about having delusions of adequacy.


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Default Union productivity..... not!

Why is the business owner greedy, and YOU are not?


That's simple. It's because the owner believes that his contribution to

the
combined effort it takes to produce a good or service is worth more than

it
really is and that the workers' contribution is worth less than it

really
is.


First off I just proved you wrong by answering your question.



He's invested his own time and, likely, thousands of dollars buying
equipment, setting up facilities, etc.

He pays SS taxes above and beyond what is deducted from your pay.

He often pays property taxes on the facility and equipment.

He often keeps workers on during slow times - paying them from his

"excess"
profits - even when they are not producing enough to cover their

paychecks.

In SOME industries, YOU carry in a few hundred dollars worth of hand
tools.....but the first hour's worth of pay - less deductions - goes
straight into your pocket.


It's true that the owner has to take a risk that the worker does not and
that is one reason why the owner should get more than a worker does. Also
his job of taking a risk, managing the business, and being responsible for
everything that happens on the job makes his job more important than any
worker. But it's a question of how much should the owner get compared to the
workers; because if you don't have both then you don't have a profitable
company, and everyone loses.



It really boils down to what's fair. He doesn't want the worker to
receive a fair portion of what the business produces. A worker that is

fair
wants a fair days wage for a honest day's work. A GREEDY owner wants to
exploit the worker by not giving him a fair portion of what the business
earns. He wants to do this so he can keep it all for himself. Take a
business that installs drywall. In the past he hired American workers

and
paid the prevailing rate and benefits. Now he hires illegals, pays them

10
bucks and hour cash without benefits, and fires the American workers.

That's
how the greedy guy does it. All he cares about is him getting ahead and

no
one else.



I'm sure, when the union strikes, they are concerned about the business

and
how it will survive.....right?

They would NEVER back a business owner's back to the wall in order to gain
- would they?

You talk a lot about "fairness", but the union seems to want to use every
unfair tactic available to it just to squeeze a little more from "the

Man".

As I've said before, union shops - including teaching - are the most angry
places I have ever worked.


So you changed the subject to unions and strikes when I pointed out how many
owners take advantage of workers for their benefit. That must mean you know
it's true. As for strikes a union does that as a last resort. Most union
members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they
think management isn't negotiating in good faith. They also know that if
they force the business to close both sides lose. Over and over it's always
the same, owners don't want to pay fair or prevailing wages. It doesn't
matter how profitable the business, is if they can lower labor costs it puts
more money in their pocket. If you don't make them play fair they will screw
you. Are you really so gullible that you blindly trust all businesses to be
fair? You know you're always getting a fair deal from used car dealers,
mechanics, and other businessmen? It's the same for unions. They have to
make sure they are getting treated fairly. Unfortunate isn't it, but that's
the way it is.



There are thousands of examples like this. My working for him and
wanting to be treated fairly is different. Selling my labor at fair

market
value isn't exploiting anyone. Greedy owners exploit others' weakness

for
his own gain. I'm sure you know of examples of this just as well as I

do.
It's not uncommon.


You assume EVERY business owner is greedy.


No I don't. In fact most businesses are not bad but they are like people,
there's good ones and there are bad ones. The bad ones give a bad name to
the good ones. You see the problem if only a few business owners are greedy
but they run the big companies. A few big bad apples makes a lot of
problems. Lots of little businessmen don't do that much harm. For example a
big hotel chain brings in a lot of Mexicans to work for cheap pay but that's
all it takes to affect everyone.



Yet you give every business owner reason why the union is also greedy?


Unions aren't perfect. I never said they were but the main job they have is
to negotiate fair deals with management. Owners always think the workers
want too much and the workers think the same about the owners. Both are
usually right. But that is why they negotiate and if you don't have a union
representing you when you negotiate with a big company you take it in the
shorts.

Name calling isn't the best base for a business relationship.

Walk into my shop and call me a "greedy SOB", and I'll guarantee you will
regret it before everything is all said and done.


Well, I am a big enough boy that I can say just about anything I want to
anyone and not worry about them not liking it. If I had reason to believe
you were a greedy SOB I'm here to tell you that I would say exactly that. If
you took offense so be it. The difference between us is you couldn't call me
any names and get me to physically attack you for it. I don't know about
you. But I do know how to defend my self very well if you are unable to
control your emotions.



Which of your ass cheeks has the union seal tattooed on it, and which ass
cheek has the "libruls rule!" tattoo? (I'm assuming you went to a union
tattoo parlor where spelling is not paramount.)


I'm too smart to have any tattoos, too old too. The only time in my life I
was in a union was when I was a retail clerk when I was a fifteen year old
box boy. I didn't like paying dues either. I'm pro union because I have a
college education and know what America was like for workers before unions.
I guess no one ever told you about those things. If you knew why unions were
formed maybe you wouldn't be against them like a knee jerk right winger and
make the mistake of thinking you have to be a liberal to be pro union.

Hawke




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What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker
that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.


You are the second most qualifed on this earth, right behind your
union whore buddy, Ronnie.


That would probably be the way you would see it. But as usual your

opinion
is totally worthless. As are you as a person too.

Hawke




That's only your pathetic attempt to make your wasted life worth
something to you, big bird. I haven't seen one post from you discussing
tools, metalworking, or helping anyone with anything. All you ever do
is condemn anyone who disagrees with your sadly twisted view of the
world.



You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw
you a bone and explain to you that I read many of the metalworking posts but
I don't originate or comment on them because I don't have a lot of
experience in that area. The areas I comment on are ones I have some
knowledge about. You may have noticed that lots of people in this NG discuss
plenty of issues aside from metal. I learn a lot from people who do have a
lot of experience in metal. That is one reason I am here, to learn something
about metalwork, not to teach. But I also like the other things discussed
and that is why I participate in them and not in others.

Hawke


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Default Union productivity..... not!


"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Hawke wrote:

"Wes" wrote in message
...
"Hawke" wrote:

What it takes is to be an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker

that
wants to run things. Sounds like you would be perfect for the job.

So you are saying an unqualified, uneducated, dumb-**** worker is

perfect
for union management? I do thank you for confirming what comprises

Union
management.

Wes


Just because I see the benefit in unions doesn't meant that I think the
people in charge of them are the salt of the earth. I've been around

long
enough to know they are not. Lots of them are scum bags. But then so are

a
lot of people in management too.

Hawke



In other words, anyone who makes more than you do is scum.



No point in responding to your nonsense, it's not rational.


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Default Union productivity..... not!

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw
you a bone


Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner
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Default Union productivity..... not!


Gunner wrote:

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll throw
you a bone


Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner




Naw. He's out in the alley behind the butcher shop fighting the other
dogs for the bones, and always loses to the prissy Poodles and trembling
Chihuahuas.


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Default Union productivity..... not!


"Hawke" wrote in message
...
snip----
Most union
members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when they
think management isn't negotiating in good faith.


Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do?

Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable, and
resisted by management.

They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's
worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow down"
mentality.

I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath telling
me I'm wrong.

Harold




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Default Union productivity..... not!


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Hawke" wrote in message
...
snip----
Most union
members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when

they
think management isn't negotiating in good faith.


Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do?

Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable,

and
resisted by management.

They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's
worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow

down"
mentality.

I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath

telling
me I'm wrong.

Harold



Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we
need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your
personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the
right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because
it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but
that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes.

Hawke


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"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll

throw
you a bone


Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner



Just like you popgunner.


Hawke


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Default Union productivity..... not!

On Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:34:27 -0800, "Hawke"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
.net...

"Hawke" wrote in message
...
snip----
Most union
members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when

they
think management isn't negotiating in good faith.


Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do?

Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable,

and
resisted by management.

They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's
worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow

down"
mentality.

I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath

telling
me I'm wrong.

Harold



Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we
need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your
personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is the
right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because
it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but
that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes.

Hawke


Good on ya' Bird.

Now tell us about the Union at the Pratt & Whitney engine plant that
claimed they had the right to limit the productivity of people working
on piece work basis. And they went to court, and got a decision in
their favor in local court.

The case finally floated up the Supreme court who ruled against the
Union.

Nice people who weren't trying to get the piece work people more money
(like you tell us the Union does), they tried to limit their income.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)
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Default Union productivity..... not!


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Hawke" wrote in message
...
snip----
Most union
members lose money when they have to strike and they only do it when

they
think management isn't negotiating in good faith.


Nonsense! Are you suggesting the unions always do?

Many strikes are called because union demands are totally unreasonable,

and
resisted by management.

They often represent people demanding pay that is far greater than it's
worth in value by performance, especially when accompanied by a "slow

down"
mentality.

I worked, briefly, in a union shop. You need not waste your breath

telling
me I'm wrong.

Harold



Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we
need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your
personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is
the
right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons. Because
it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but
that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes.

Hawke


The truth is well known to most of us. Unions have a way of killing the
goose that lays the golden eggs.

They're way too caught up with trying to convince lame brained morons that
they're worth more than they are. The morons in question are the people
that tell others to "slow down"-----sort of making themselves look good by
hoping others look bad. Yeah------that's the kind of people we need in
industry----lazy, shiftless go nowhere, do nothing kind of losers.

No thanks-----I'm too proud to belong to a union. I am and was a self
made man-----I didn't need someone to speak for me----my efforts spoke for
themselves.

Harold


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"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll

throw
you a bone


Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner



Just like you popgunner.


Hawke



Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?

You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.

Harold




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Default Union productivity..... not!


Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll

throw
you a bone

Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner



Just like you popgunner.


Hawke


Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?

You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.

Harold



Hawkie is a 'Usenet pain slut'. He likes to be knocked down, kicked,
and violated over and over. If he didn't, he would find the appropriate
place for his ignorant crap.


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Default Union productivity..... not!

On Sat, 22 Mar 2008 08:26:27 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll

throw
you a bone

Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner



Just like you popgunner.


Hawke



Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?

You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.

Harold


In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed.


Gunner

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Gunner wrote:

In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed.



Not to mention that he was mentally kneecapped, too.


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Default Union productivity..... not!


Thanks so much for the anecdotal data. Your personal experience is all we
need to hear about to make a judgment about unions in general. While your
personal observations may have been one way the truth is what I said is

the
right on. Unions don't strike often and not for frivilous reasons.

Because
it usually costs more than it gains for them. You may not know that but
that's the fact. That is usually the case with anecdotes.

Hawke


Good on ya' Bird.

Now tell us about the Union at the Pratt & Whitney engine plant that
claimed they had the right to limit the productivity of people working
on piece work basis. And they went to court, and got a decision in
their favor in local court.

The case finally floated up the Supreme court who ruled against the
Union.

Nice people who weren't trying to get the piece work people more money
(like you tell us the Union does), they tried to limit their income.


Bruce-in-Bangkok
(correct email address for reply)



Look, unions are no different than any other organization. As a result you
get all kinds. Some unions are run by thieves and liars and some by
honorable men. I know for a fact that most unions don't want to go out on
strike because they money they lose isn't made up by the new contract. Both
sides lose in a strike and that is why unions try to avoid them, not because
they are nice guys. You can give me examples of rotten things done by unions
and I can come up with dirty corporate tricks, but remember strikes are
pretty rare. Most of the time contracts are reached that both sides agree
upon. Writers and owners, ball players and owners, teachers/nurses and the
state. Most strikes are short too. All I'm saying is that it's not in the
union's interest to go out on strike and not for very long. So they avoid
it. Of course there are examples where they do the opposite but that is the
exception not the rule. I'm not really a defender of unions except to the
extent that I think they are a necessary evil.

Hawke


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Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy I'll

throw
you a bone

Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner



Just like you popgunner.


Hawke



Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?


First off, I'm never unarmed.



You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.



Secondly, you've got it backwards, pal. But then you're probably a guy who
thinks Bush is a good president too.


Hawke




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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Harold and Susan Vordos wrote:

"Hawke" wrote in message
...

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 23:37:38 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy

I'll
throw
you a bone

Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner


Just like you popgunner.


Hawke


Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?

You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.

Harold



Hawkie is a 'Usenet pain slut'. He likes to be knocked down, kicked,
and violated over and over. If he didn't, he would find the appropriate
place for his ignorant crap.



I have to give you your due. You are the master when it comes to ignorance.

Hawke


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Hawke wrote:

You don't deserve the consideration, but because I'm a nice guy

I'll
throw
you a bone

Doesnt that what Hawks Top throws him every night?

Gunner


Just like you popgunner.


Hawke



Hawke-----do you realize you're dueling while being unarmed?

You don't have a prayer of a chance against the likes of Gunner.

Harold


In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed.


Gunner


That's a good one coming from someone who has to killfile everyone that he
can't match wits with. And look who's talking, a guy who's only got a half a
wit on his best day. Why else can't he come up with anything besides
homosexual references every time in a vain attempt to win an argument?


Hawke


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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...

Gunner wrote:

In a battle of wits, Hawke always shows up unarmed.



Not to mention that he was mentally kneecapped, too.


I see where you came up with that brilliant one. You remembered that you are
physically "kneecapped". Very clever, not!


Hawke


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"Hawke" wrote in news:13ubo46kbjkbb03
@corp.supernews.com:

And look who's talking, a guy who's only got a half a
wit on his best day.


So you have finally admitted it!

Somehow, I didn't think that you'd ever see it.

This must have been YOUR Best of the Best Day!

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"Hawke" wrote in
:

First off, I'm never unarmed.


NERF balls don't count.



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"Eregon" wrote in message
...
"Hawke" wrote in
:

First off, I'm never unarmed.


NERF balls don't count.


Properly placed in the trachea ..............


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