Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
oups.com...
Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron


Life must be an endless bitch for you, fighting off all the evils you seem
to endure.

I have news for you:

You have yet to identify the enemy. (And likely never will with your
apparent lack of intelligence).

Harold

Millwright Wrong wrote in article
.com...

Why do we need Unions?



Maybe YOU "need" a union, but I never did............



SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE


Yeah......I've seen how some unions "assist" you in making that
choice...............

Millwright Ron wrote:

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?


Unions also provide equal compensation for unequal ability and dedication to
the job removing the incentive to do much more than just getting by.

That of course has an effect on the bottom line that businesses live and die
by.

How many union bargained pension plans went bust? Doesn't sound like your
track record is so good. Don't try to blame it on the company, you the
union should have been there making sure the plan was fully funded back when
the times were good. Rile up the workers, get a promise for the future that
no one can guarantee so it looks like the union is doing something.
Politicians and Unions have something in common, when their mouths are
moving, they are lying. (Yes, I don't trust the company very far either.)


Wes

On Nov 6, 10:00 pm, Millwright Ron
wrote:
Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron

I think people need examples as some union actions and some
union leader actions have created bad examples for people.

Union members know the only thing keeping them from rec-
eiving Walmart wages is their union. But many other non-
union folks, afraid to rock-the-boat, keep their fingers crossed
and hope "it doesn't happen to them" while knowing they
could be just one "foriegn contract" away from joblessness
and homelessness, as has happened to many.

How about some RECENT success stories?

dennis
in nca

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip----

Why do *we* need unions?


*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.

Harold

"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
oups.com...
Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

Only an idiot refuses to see the writing's on the wall.

" I will take the job if you will pay me two dollars per day" "No I do
not need insurance" "Yes my wife will cook dinner for you tonight."
"What time do I need to send over my little son for you private party"
" Yes I will work for free on Saturday." Yes Sunday will be okay too!"
"I need the job to feed my family"."Yes sir Supreme Boss of the
America's"

SKILLED ON PRINCIPLE ----- UNION BY CHOICE

Union Millwright Ron

I've worked in union jobs and non-union jobs, some of which needed a union
and some (my current one) which don't.

A union is at best a necessary evil. Under what circumstances are unions
necessary?

Well, at a speech given for a corporate lawyer who had spent twenty years
traveling the country fighting corporate cases against unions, he said, "The
only reasons unions exist is because of stupid management."

The problem with stupid management is that they polarize the workers vs. the
management by treating the workers like crap. The problem with unions is
that they polarize workers vs. management by not considering management's
point of view. If management is too inept to foster a spirit of cooperation
amongst the workers (through profit-sharing and/or other means) then
unionization is pretty much an inevitable result.

I hated the "us-vs.-them" attitude of the unionized jobs I had. It was a
vicious cycle: management would do something stupid (such as fire an
employee for some BS reason), the union would force them to re-hire the
employee, then management would resent the fact that their authority was
undermined and try to re-assert it by doing some other idiotic thing to an
employee who didn't deserve it. What's worse, the union also protected
employees who DID actually deserve to get fired, increasing management's
frustration.

It was an endless cycle. If the union ever dissolved, management would
become so bad that only the most desperate, inept workers would remain--and
if management stopped fighting the union, wages would increase to the point
that the company would go out of business.

I would *never* buy anything from a company that used unionized labor if
there was an alternative company which kept out the unions by adequately
compensated their workers and engendered a spirit of cooperation by, for
example, giving substantial rewards for outstanding accomplishments. This
is because it's not only better for the workers and the managers, it's much
more efficient--and I don't want any product or service provided by labor
which sees management as the enemy.

Unfortunately, it doesn't often work out that way in real life. Upper
management of competing companies have been known to conspire against
workers in order to be more competitive. For example, the major
construction companies in a given state could all agree to keep their
workers' salaries low to increase profits, without worrying that all their
workers will quit and go to work for one of their competitors--because all
their competitors in that state have agreed to do the same. Or, through
mergers and acquisitions, there might be only one big construction company
in the state--and they may decide something similar. We all know the many
advantages of capitalism, but this is one of the drawbacks of unrestricted
capitalism--the more ruthless you are, the more you screw people out of
their money, the more you stand to gain. Corporate leaders can't be counted
on to do what's best for the economy, because they're too busy doing their
job, which is maximizing growth and profits for their company by whatever
means they have.

So, while I understand the need for unions, that need itself arises from the
problem of incompetent management and the solution to that problem both
intensifies and perpetuates it.

The company I work for now doesn't have unions and doesn't need them.
Workers are not only adequately compensated, we're given generous bonuses
when corporate income during a quarter exceeds the goals set during the
previous quarter--which is usually the case. Even without the bonuses,
self-interest would make me want to do a good job for this company to ensure
they remain strong and don't go out of business or lay people off. The
bonuses add enthusiasm for going above and beyond my job duties--such as
putting in a little extra time here and there without adding it to my
timesheet--something I would have felt like a foolish ass for doing when I
was in the union mindset!

On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:40:11 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
roups.com...
snip----

Why do *we* need unions?


*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.

Harold



Ok, I'll give you an example:_

Chased down a flight of stairs and along a corridor by a manager (not my
manager). complaining about a job that had been done on some networking kit at
the required time the night before apparently preventing the people in his
department from working (they were sat around chattering at the time).

Said manager is 6' 8" and heavily built, I'm 5'4".

Manager told me He had already made a formal complaint about me, I said that
was unnecessary given that I had done the job as specified.

Cornered in corridor and told that he wanted an explanation of my attitude.
Told manager that I had nothing to say at that time and I was not prepared to
discuss the matter in that way. Faced a long tirade about my unprofessional
attitude etc. Told manager that If he behaved like an old woman, then I would
treat him like an old woman.

Formal disciplinary procedure imposed. Next day in a formal meeting with my
manager, the HR manager and my union rep I was accused of disobeying an order
of the manager, being disrespectful of the manager, having an unprofessional
attitude and not doing the job right. Explained my side of things and made no
impression. Union rep pointed out that the behaviour and attitude of the
manager sounded like bullying, would the manager (not present) like to explain
his behaviour, should I be making a complaint about the manager?

HR manager said, we need to discuss this, we'll get back to you. Two weeks
later I got a letter in the post at home saying that the disciplinary
procedure had been dropped.

I was rabidly against the union when I started my employment, but became a
member when the union supported my small department in our claim that we were
being paid 30% less basic than similarly skilled and trained people that never
left their desks "because you get a lot of overtime when you work in power
stations abroad". That was 24 years ago.

My IT department is currently undergoing it's third outsourcing exercise from
corporate central. On the first two we proved conclusively that the outsourced
solution would provide a poorer service at higher cost (obvious that a
department with a worldwide staff of 1300, if run properly, can't be cheaper
If you're paying someone else's shareholders as well!)

Unions can and have caused major problems in industries and I have had to get
round restrictive deals negotiated at power stations that allowed a team of
three to get full bonus when pulling 30 metres of cable per 7h shift (quite
reasonable when applied to 80mm diameter cable, less reasonable when we were
pulling 5mm transducer cable and expecting to pull 20, 50 metre cables each
per 13h shift). But they can and do hold abusive employers to account when
they try to break either their contracts or the laws of the land.

A company, generally, will get the union that it deserves. If the company
plays fair with its employees, it will get labour organisations that work in
its favour because that is in the best interests of all. If the company don't
care about their employees, they will get a workforce and unions that respond
in kind. Remember, it takes two sides to make either an agreement or an
argument.

Why don't I leave? Because my loyalty is to the company, not necessarily to
the *******s I work for. I will do my best for my employer whether they want
it or not, that's what I signed up for.


The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:40:11 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"

wrote:


"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
groups.com...
snip----

Why do *we* need unions?


*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.

Harold



Ok, I'll give you an example:_

Chased down a flight of stairs and along a corridor by a manager (not my
manager). complaining about a job that had been done on some networking
kit at
the required time the night before apparently preventing the people in his
department from working (they were sat around chattering at the time).

Said manager is 6' 8" and heavily built, I'm 5'4".

Manager told me He had already made a formal complaint about me, I said
that
was unnecessary given that I had done the job as specified.

Cornered in corridor and told that he wanted an explanation of my
attitude.
Told manager that I had nothing to say at that time and I was not prepared
to
discuss the matter in that way. Faced a long tirade about my
unprofessional
attitude etc. Told manager that If he behaved like an old woman, then I
would
treat him like an old woman.

Formal disciplinary procedure imposed. Next day in a formal meeting with
my
manager, the HR manager and my union rep I was accused of disobeying an
order
of the manager, being disrespectful of the manager, having an
unprofessional
attitude and not doing the job right. Explained my side of things and made
no
impression. Union rep pointed out that the behaviour and attitude of the
manager sounded like bullying, would the manager (not present) like to
explain
his behaviour, should I be making a complaint about the manager?

HR manager said, we need to discuss this, we'll get back to you. Two weeks
later I got a letter in the post at home saying that the disciplinary
procedure had been dropped.

I was rabidly against the union when I started my employment, but became a
member when the union supported my small department in our claim that we
were
being paid 30% less basic than similarly skilled and trained people that
never
left their desks "because you get a lot of overtime when you work in power
stations abroad". That was 24 years ago.

My IT department is currently undergoing it's third outsourcing exercise
from
corporate central. On the first two we proved conclusively that the
outsourced
solution would provide a poorer service at higher cost (obvious that a
department with a worldwide staff of 1300, if run properly, can't be
cheaper
If you're paying someone else's shareholders as well!)

Unions can and have caused major problems in industries and I have had to
get
round restrictive deals negotiated at power stations that allowed a team
of
three to get full bonus when pulling 30 metres of cable per 7h shift
(quite
reasonable when applied to 80mm diameter cable, less reasonable when we
were
pulling 5mm transducer cable and expecting to pull 20, 50 metre cables
each
per 13h shift). But they can and do hold abusive employers to account when
they try to break either their contracts or the laws of the land.

A company, generally, will get the union that it deserves. If the company
plays fair with its employees, it will get labour organisations that work
in
its favour because that is in the best interests of all. If the company
don't
care about their employees, they will get a workforce and unions that
respond
in kind. Remember, it takes two sides to make either an agreement or an
argument.

Why don't I leave? Because my loyalty is to the company, not necessarily
to
the *******s I work for. I will do my best for my employer whether they
want
it or not, that's what I signed up for.


The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

God! I don't know whether to cry or to throw up after that tale of woe!

Steve

On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 17:10:57 -0800, "SteveB"
wrote:



God! I don't know whether to cry or to throw up after that tale of woe!

Steve



:-)

You can't do enough for a good company. Should've got a job with another one
when this one changed...

Mark Rand
RTFM

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
news snip-----


The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

Indeed it is not, and I, too, have experienced injustices at shops that were
not unionized. I worked for one shop foremen that resented me, and would
go far out of their way to abuse me in many ways, including not asking me to
work overtime when others, even with less experience and capabilities, were
asked on a regular basis. Keep in mind this was early, when I was in need
of added income.

The treatment I received at the hands of such people were very instrumental
in my becoming self employed. I was more than qualified to work in my
selected trade, and once past the introduction stage, where I was trying to
get established, I never looked back.

Your story is a tough one, Mark, and you have my sympathy. I can
understand, from your perspective, where you feel you need the protection of
a union. Fact is, it's shameful.

I beat my case by being self employed. Perhaps you can't exercise that
option in your chosen profession. All the more pity.

Harold

If there were a choice as to which union I as a manufacture could procure
the labor needed it wouldn't be so bad. I doubt very seriously that the Pro
Union people would agree to only having one car you could buy, one loaf of
bread that you could buy or anyother monoply such as wielded by the unions.
I once tried to obtain work as a grade setter on highway construction. I
had a contractor more than willing to hire me. I was extra qualified but
the union had other less qualified people on the list that had to go first.
I've also had to wait to load a ship with emergency food supplies because
of the need to use a unionized stevedore group. On top of that, I think my
wife and I could have loaded the ship faster. The "its not my rating you
have to get someone out of the union to screw in that light bulb" BS that
has made me anti-union.
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
. net...

"Mark Rand" wrote in message
news snip-----


The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

Indeed it is not, and I, too, have experienced injustices at shops that
were not unionized. I worked for one shop foremen that resented me, and
would go far out of their way to abuse me in many ways, including not
asking me to work overtime when others, even with less experience and
capabilities, were asked on a regular basis. Keep in mind this was
early, when I was in need of added income.

The treatment I received at the hands of such people were very
instrumental in my becoming self employed. I was more than qualified to
work in my selected trade, and once past the introduction stage, where I
was trying to get established, I never looked back.

Your story is a tough one, Mark, and you have my sympathy. I can
understand, from your perspective, where you feel you need the protection
of a union. Fact is, it's shameful.

I beat my case by being self employed. Perhaps you can't exercise that
option in your chosen profession. All the more pity.

Harold

On Nov 8, 3:41 am, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
"Mark Rand" wrote in message

news snip-----



The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

Indeed it is not, and I, too, have experienced injustices at shops that were
not unionized. I worked for one shop foremen that resented me, and would
go far out of their way to abuse me in many ways, including not asking me to
work overtime when others, even with less experience and capabilities, were
asked on a regular basis. Keep in mind this was early, when I was in need
of added income.

The treatment I received at the hands of such people were very instrumental
in my becoming self employed. I was more than qualified to work in my
selected trade, and once past the introduction stage, where I was trying to
get established, I never looked back.

Your story is a tough one, Mark, and you have my sympathy. I can
understand, from your perspective, where you feel you need the protection of
a union. Fact is, it's shameful.

I beat my case by being self employed. Perhaps you can't exercise that
option in your chosen profession. All the more pity.

Harold

Unions keep the wages of the skilled, hard working people low and
artificially inflate the wages of the people who barely do enough to
keep their jobs. Of course, once they have been there for 3 months
they are a "brother" and cannot be fired.

"sparky" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip-----

Unions keep the wages of the skilled, hard working people low and
artificially inflate the wages of the people who barely do enough to
keep their jobs. Of course, once they have been there for 3 months
they are a "brother" and cannot be fired.

I expect that's the case with our dear friend Millwright Ron, the union man.
The people I've known that supported the union were, for the most part,
people that needed one to exist. It's all they had going for them. They
screamed union at every turn, secure in the knowledge that they couldn't
keep a job without one, lacking the necessary skills and experience to do
so. They're typically so entrenched in union dogma that they don't have a
clue about the work they're supposed to represent, but then, that doesn't
matter much, because they don't do much work, anyway. I've never met a
union man that was able to hold his own when confronted with the need for
skills and talent, and had to get the job out. A particularly good example
is an old friend, who had the union represent him for the vast majority of
his working career as a wireman. His greatest skill was carrying around a
coffee cup while he pretended to be working. Half a man, but a full day's
pay. Somehow it doesn't make sense.

Harold

Union worker at chemical plant I worked at.
I dont remember his first screwup, but it cost the company quite a bit.
2nd screw up. Contaminated a huge tank of product by pumping in diesel
on top of it.( he pumped into tank 9 instead of 7)(lost the company the
customer on this one)
3rd screw up. Collapsed a huge holding tank because he didnt follow
procedures and didnt open the vent when pumping out the procuct. This
one cost the company several million dollars.

All three screwups happened in one months time. After the third he was
fired.

Guess what, Union appealed.

I got sick of hearing .. you cant do that, thats a union job and they
will file a grievance. And this for something that I did everyday for 5
years at a non unionized work place.

How about this.

If you dont like a company, then quit. Go get a better job somewhere
else. But you have to compete against other people. Thats what unions
take out of the equation. In the union its not the best person gets the
job. Its who has been there longest.

TANSTAAFL

Companies are getting strangled by unions. My wife works in a union
position but is not in the union.(right to work state) She cant believe
how much they pay her to do the rote work she does.

Guess what,, all the new chemical plants and refinerys are going to
Saudi, Dubai, Quatar. They call them joint ventures. When you have
everyone making 40.00 an hour here on what is really a 10.00 an hour
job, thats what happens. When you cant get rid of the boneheads and
slackers and incompentents you are running with 30% more people than is
needed and that makes it real easy for the company to decide to put the
new styrene or polyethelyne unit or whatever overseas where they will
get a 40% return on investment instead of 7% here in the states.


Ok.. rant off.

Why do we need Unions?

So the slugs in life can get promoted.

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:06:06 -0600, Bill
wrote:
snip
I got sick of hearing .. you cant do that, thats a union job and they
will file a grievance.
snip
========
This is also a wonderful management excuse when they don't want
to do something. 2 examples:

Many years ago, I worked for a company w/o a union that purchased
a company with a union. The suits from the new company soon
parachuted in to tell us how we were doing things wrong.

Several times when something came up that required a change,
their standard excuse was "but the union won't let us," until we
started prefercing each suggestion with "because we don't have a
union we can..." 99 cases out of a hundred they still would not
act, but at least it stopped that BS. FWIW -- the second company
is now out of business, even though it was non-union.

Second Example

Many many years ago I worked in a mjor supplier of automotive
fuel systems as a methods engineer, and management uniformly
denied all suggestions for improvements on the grounds that the
union would not allow it.

Some time later I became friends with one of the UAW Local 819
Committeemen, and asked him why the union was so dead set against
any changes. He asked for specific details, and checked.

None of the suggestions I had made were even mentioned to the
Union, and in many cases the Union had made the same suggestions,
particurarly where this involved unnecessary lifting or awkward
positions.

Several years later when I was working in product design, I
discovered that some of the suggestions had been implimented, but
with the suits claiming credit, either for increased productivity
and in many cases for reducing workman's compensation claims.


In too many organizations, if a union does not exist, management
will invent one.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
============
Merchants have no country.
The mere spot they stand on
does not constitute so strong an attachment
as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826),
U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

On Nov 7, 5:15 pm, Mark Rand wrote:
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 19:40:11 GMT, "Harold and Susan Vordos"
wrote:



"Millwright Ron" wrote in message
roups.com...
snip----

Why do *we* need unions?

*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.

Harold

Ok, I'll give you an example:_

Chased down a flight of stairs and along a corridor by a manager (not my
manager). complaining about a job that had been done on some networking kit at
the required time the night before apparently preventing the people in his
department from working (they were sat around chattering at the time).

Said manager is 6' 8" and heavily built, I'm 5'4".

Manager told me He had already made a formal complaint about me, I said that
was unnecessary given that I had done the job as specified.

Cornered in corridor and told that he wanted an explanation of my attitude.
Told manager that I had nothing to say at that time and I was not prepared to
discuss the matter in that way. Faced a long tirade about my unprofessional
attitude etc. Told manager that If he behaved like an old woman, then I would
treat him like an old woman.

Formal disciplinary procedure imposed. Next day in a formal meeting with my
manager, the HR manager and my union rep I was accused of disobeying an order
of the manager, being disrespectful of the manager, having an unprofessional
attitude and not doing the job right. Explained my side of things and made no
impression. Union rep pointed out that the behaviour and attitude of the
manager sounded like bullying, would the manager (not present) like to explain
his behaviour, should I be making a complaint about the manager?

HR manager said, we need to discuss this, we'll get back to you. Two weeks
later I got a letter in the post at home saying that the disciplinary
procedure had been dropped.

I was rabidly against the union when I started my employment, but became a
member when the union supported my small department in our claim that we were
being paid 30% less basic than similarly skilled and trained people that never
left their desks "because you get a lot of overtime when you work in power
stations abroad". That was 24 years ago.

My IT department is currently undergoing it's third outsourcing exercise from
corporate central. On the first two we proved conclusively that the outsourced
solution would provide a poorer service at higher cost (obvious that a
department with a worldwide staff of 1300, if run properly, can't be cheaper
If you're paying someone else's shareholders as well!)

Unions can and have caused major problems in industries and I have had to get
round restrictive deals negotiated at power stations that allowed a team of
three to get full bonus when pulling 30 metres of cable per 7h shift (quite
reasonable when applied to 80mm diameter cable, less reasonable when we were
pulling 5mm transducer cable and expecting to pull 20, 50 metre cables each
per 13h shift). But they can and do hold abusive employers to account when
they try to break either their contracts or the laws of the land.

A company, generally, will get the union that it deserves. If the company
plays fair with its employees, it will get labour organisations that work in
its favour because that is in the best interests of all. If the company don't
care about their employees, they will get a workforce and unions that respond
in kind. Remember, it takes two sides to make either an agreement or an
argument.

Why don't I leave? Because my loyalty is to the company, not necessarily to
the *******s I work for. I will do my best for my employer whether they want
it or not, that's what I signed up for.

The world isn't necessarily the way you see it Harold

Mark Rand
RTFM

Good discussion...I could tell similar stories.

Unions have their place.

My experience also shows that management gets the unions they deserve.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
snip------

Good discussion...I could tell similar stories.

Unions have their place.

My experience also shows that management gets the unions they deserve.

TMT


That's one of the best points presented thus far.

Harold

On Nov 7, 2:40 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.


I know a rat when I smell one.

Always with a big mouth.

"GatherNoMoss" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Nov 7, 2:40 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:
*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.


I know a rat when I smell one.

Always with a big mouth.


I'ts hard to say which one is the rat in this post. Could you be more
specific?

Harold

In following this thread, I notice that when someone had a bad
experience with a union (singular), the message became that unions
(plural) are bad. My experience has been somewhat different.

I have worked both hourly and salaried in both union and non-union
shops. My overwhelming impression has been that the companies that
have unions need/deserve them. And that the non-union shops worked
hard to keep the union out, mostly by treating the workers fairly.

I served an tool & die appernticeship in a very large mfg. plant that
had a contract with the machinists union. Not all the toolmakers
were paid the same. The union contract specified the minimum rate.
The better craftsmen made more. And overtime was also used to reward
performance, and witheld to punish the slackers. And I never saw
featherbedding like what I observed in a UAW "Big 3" automotive plant
years later.

Having said that this company was very antagonistic towards the unions
and it's members. It seemed that they went out of their way to stir
things up. One example. We were often required to work Saturdays
when the company cafeteria was closed at breakfast. So one of the
guys would stop at a bakery and bring in sweet rolls. One Saturday,
without previous warning, he was stopped by the company guard and the
bag of rolls was examined. "New policy" he was told, "only 2 rolls
allowed per person". "Leave them here or eat all but 2", was the new
rule. Not surprisingly, strikes were not uncommon at this company.

John Normile


On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:40:38 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:
========
This is also a wonderful management excuse when they don't want
to do something. 2 examples:

Many years ago, I worked for a company w/o a union that purchased
a company with a union. The suits from the new company soon
parachuted in to tell us how we were doing things wrong.

Several times when something came up that required a change,
their standard excuse was "but the union won't let us," until we
started prefercing each suggestion with "because we don't have a
union we can..." 99 cases out of a hundred they still would not
act, but at least it stopped that BS. FWIW -- the second company
is now out of business, even though it was non-union.

Second Example

Many many years ago I worked in a mjor supplier of automotive
fuel systems as a methods engineer, and management uniformly
denied all suggestions for improvements on the grounds that the
union would not allow it.

Some time later I became friends with one of the UAW Local 819
Committeemen, and asked him why the union was so dead set against
any changes. He asked for specific details, and checked.

None of the suggestions I had made were even mentioned to the
Union, and in many cases the Union had made the same suggestions,
particurarly where this involved unnecessary lifting or awkward
positions.

Several years later when I was working in product design, I
discovered that some of the suggestions had been implimented, but
with the suits claiming credit, either for increased productivity
and in many cases for reducing workman's compensation claims.


In too many organizations, if a union does not exist, management
will invent one.


Unka' George [George McDuffee]
============
Merchants have no country.
The mere spot they stand on
does not constitute so strong an attachment
as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826),
U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

(John Normile) wrote:

Having said that this company was very antagonistic towards the unions
and it's members. It seemed that they went out of their way to stir
things up. One example. We were often required to work Saturdays
when the company cafeteria was closed at breakfast. So one of the
guys would stop at a bakery and bring in sweet rolls. One Saturday,
without previous warning, he was stopped by the company guard and the
bag of rolls was examined. "New policy" he was told, "only 2 rolls
allowed per person". "Leave them here or eat all but 2", was the new
rule. Not surprisingly, strikes were not uncommon at this company.

How much weight did that guard gain?

Millwright Ron wrote:

Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?


So those without the balls to join the military can feel like real
men. they can only shoot off their mouths, not fire a weapon.


Think about it! The military is basically a union. They decide what
job you can do, what you get paid, and where you'll work. They decide
who is next in line for a promotion to a higher paying job, and promise
you one hell of a retirement plan. You have excellent job security, and
you can file all the grievances you want.

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in the
military?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Millwright Ron wrote:

Government and employers dishonestly attack unions but let us get some
perspective.
Democracy is traditionally strongest where you have strong unions.
Solidarity, the Polish workers' union, brought down the Polish
communist government. Unions lead the campaign against the incompetent
dictatorship in Zimbabwe. Dictators, like Hitler, know that to
consolidate permanent power you first destroy the unions.

Our good conditions of employment came from union action over the
past century.

Unions provide the level playing field and the balance needed for
justice. Employer organization's refer to union bosses' excesses. They
ignore the excesses of the company bosses, their failures and their
obscene pay, 130 times the average workers' pay.

Why do we need Unions?

So those without the balls to join the military can feel like real
men. they can only shoot off their mouths, not fire a weapon.

Think about it! The military is basically a union. They decide what
job you can do, what you get paid, and where you'll work. They decide
who is next in line for a promotion to a higher paying job, and promise
you one hell of a retirement plan. You have excellent job security, and
you can file all the grievances you want.

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in the
military?

--Terrell says my disability is from Hurt while cleaning tables at the Mess Hall. .On my knees servicing
the officers.That is where I learn the difference between an ass
kisser and a brown noser. My knees are killing me. I love chap
stick...

Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it and my knee pads
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Millwright Ron wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"

So those without the balls to join the military can feel like real
men. they can only shoot off their mouths, not fire a weapon.

Think about it! The military is basically a union. They decide what
job you can do, what you get paid, and where you'll work. They decide
who is next in line for a promotion to a higher paying job, and promise
you one hell of a retirement plan. You have excellent job security, and
you can file all the grievances you want.

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in the
military?

--Terrell says my disability is from Hurt while cleaning tables at the Mess Hall. .On my knees servicing
the officers.That is where I learn the difference between an ass
kisser and a brown noser. My knees are killing me. I love chap
stick...


You are projecting again, you pathetic old union faggot. Where your
knee pads made in a union shop, too?

I was a broadcast engineer while I served my country. You, on the
other hand helped yourself to money you didn't earn, and continue to
preach your lies and deceit about your communist unions. I have worked
union shops, but in management level jobs. I quickly got tired of the
knuckle dragging idiots, and their constant whining. They were
illiterate and barely able to make it to the shop on time, let alone do
good work. The union 'men' were even worse.


I don't care what you did to get those prized union jobs, but I never
stooped to your level. It says a lot about you to tell a lie, like
that, Ron. It proves that you aren't much of a man, or even a barely
passable troll. Tell all the lies you want, but all it will do is
continue to prove what a useless lowlife you are.

BTW, its very appropriate that you can barely use Goggle groups, let
alone a real news server. I expect nothing more from a communist weenie,
like you. Union members should call each other 'Comrades", not
'Brothers'.



--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Millwright Ron wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"

So those without the balls to join the military can feel like real
men. they can only shoot off their mouths, not fire a weapon.

Think about it! The military is basically a union. They decide
what
job you can do, what you get paid, and where you'll work. They decide
who is next in line for a promotion to a higher paying job, and promise
you one hell of a retirement plan. You have excellent job security,
and
you can file all the grievances you want.

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in the
military?

--Terrell says my disability is from Hurt while cleaning tables at the
Mess Hall. .On my knees servicing
the officers.That is where I learn the difference between an ass
kisser and a brown noser. My knees are killing me. I love chap
stick...


You are projecting again, you pathetic old union faggot. Where your
knee pads made in a union shop, too?

I was a broadcast engineer while I served my country. You, on the
other hand helped yourself to money you didn't earn, and continue to
preach your lies and deceit about your communist unions. I have worked
union shops, but in management level jobs. I quickly got tired of the
knuckle dragging idiots, and their constant whining. They were
illiterate and barely able to make it to the shop on time, let alone do
good work. The union 'men' were even worse.


I don't care what you did to get those prized union jobs, but I never
stooped to your level. It says a lot about you to tell a lie, like
that, Ron. It proves that you aren't much of a man, or even a barely
passable troll. Tell all the lies you want, but all it will do is
continue to prove what a useless lowlife you are.

BTW, its very appropriate that you can barely use Goggle groups, let
alone a real news server. I expect nothing more from a communist weenie,
like you. Union members should call each other 'Comrades", not
'Brothers'.



--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Don't hold back, Michael. Tell him how you really feel! :-)

Harold

On Nov 13, 10:04 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

preach your lies and deceit about your communist unions.

Negotiating wages is "communists" ?

I can't think of a single profession that hasn't some wage standard.

However did it come to pass that people that work with their hands
and set an industry wage standard are singled out as "communist" ?

I'll answer that....it all goes back to the days of royality.
The "leisure class".
A continuation of this ignorant, effete elitist attitude that anyone
that works with their hands is basically a n----r.

Yes how these delicate types need to inflate their egos.

But personally I could give a sh-- their opinions..really I don't.
Because I KNOW.

Anyhow anyone that doesn't like unions and their "infalted wages" can
kiss my ass.


I have worked
union shops, but in management level jobs. I quickly got tired of the
knuckle dragging idiots, and their constant whining. They were
illiterate and barely able to make it to the shop on time, let alone do
good work.

Exactly my experience with "management".

I'd swear that most of them are qualified only in drinking coffee and
passing the buck.

Worthless jelly donuts ALL.

On Nov 13, 7:04 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
Millwright Ron wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"

So those without the balls to join the military can feel like real
men. they can only shoot off their mouths, not fire a weapon.

Think about it! The military is basically a union. They decide what
job you can do, what you get paid, and where you'll work. They decide
who is next in line for a promotion to a higher paying job, and promise
you one hell of a retirement plan. You have excellent job security, and
you can file all the grievances you want.

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in the
military?

--Terrell says my disability is from Hurt while cleaning tables at the Mess Hall. .On my knees servicing
the officers.That is where I learn the difference between an ass
kisser and a brown noser. My knees are killing me. I love chap
stick...

You are projecting again, you pathetic old union faggot. Where your
knee pads made in a union shop, too?

I was a broadcast engineer while I served my country. You, on the
other hand helped yourself to money you didn't earn, and continue to
preach your lies and deceit about your communist unions. I have worked
union shops, but in management level jobs. I quickly got tired of the
knuckle dragging idiots, and their constant whining. They were
illiterate and barely able to make it to the shop on time, let alone do
good work. The union 'men' were even worse.

I don't care what you did to get those prized union jobs, but I never
stooped to your level. It says a lot about you to tell a lie, like
that, Ron. It proves that you aren't much of a man, or even a barely
passable troll. Tell all the lies you want, but all it will do is
continue to prove what a useless lowlife you are.

BTW, its very appropriate that you can barely use Goggle groups, let
alone a real news server. I expect nothing more from a communist weenie,
like you. Union members should call each other 'Comrades", not
'Brothers'.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you post like a scumbag and address others with
disrespect I assume you like to be treated in this manner
as well, therefore I will do so.

You depict yourself as a clueless selfish ass. This may
explain why it is you like to stay in the office with your
other back-stabbing ilk.

I can almost believe your obvious lies about serving in
management capacity because of your warped and
twisted attitudes. But the shallowness of your post
insures me this is not the case. I can see it now: A
lifetime of frustration and inability to succeed, stuck
in a deadend job, being passed by younger employees,
and all the time kissing the bosses ass as you become
the hatefull little troll you are; hiding under your bridge
waiting for some scraps to be thrown your way, even
though your tongue is almost worn-out from applying
it liberally to your bosses backside to curry favor, and
trying at the same time to speak the same vile hate-
full lies he/she spreads to keep labor under control.
I imagine you call that "being successful."

How frustrating it must be, after all the years of debasing
yourself to find yourself so full of hate. And the problem
can't be you, or your ass-kissing recipient boss, so
you now target unions as the cause of your lack of
success. How common.

I can only say I'm thankfull I never had to work with you;
one more pompous ass I didn't have to meet. Hooray!!

And you can stick your "Communist" comment where
the sun-doesn't-shine you clueless moron ****. Try
to read some history.

dennis
in nca

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in
the
military?


Are you stupid? Do you really think command gives a
rats ass whether you live or die in the army. Hell, they
won't even take care of you properly when you have your
arms or legs blown off.

This is the best anology you can come-up with? If
it was so great why didn't you stay in?? Liar.

dennis
in nca

On Nov 10, 12:08 pm, GatherNoMoss wrote:
On Nov 7, 2:40 pm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:

*We* don't. Those of us that have skills to offer and enough
intelligence to come in out of the rain sell our time for its worth, and
have no need for corrupt organizations to tell us what time it is.

I know a rat when I smell one.

Always with a big mouth.

Please define "rat" for us.

Some here have a "big mouth", myself included, and
oddly enough this is a protected constitutional right.

If you can comport yourself with dignity and recognize
others have the right to disagree we all will, more-or-less,
get along.

Now, if you're speaking to Harold's statement, please
be more politely specific so we can better understand
your point.

dennis
in nca

rigger wrote:

Since you post like a scumbag and address others with
disrespect I assume you like to be treated in this manner
as well, therefore I will do so.


You've never needed an excuse before. If I'm a scumbag, what does
that leave for you?


You depict yourself as a clueless selfish ass. This may
explain why it is you like to stay in the office with your
other back-stabbing ilk.


Office? WTH office are you talking about? I am now 100% disabled
and can only work an hour or two per day, but that doesn't stop me from
doing SOMETHING. Health issues my whole life didn't stop me from
working, till they got so bad that people were afraid I'd get hurt on
the job. It's obvious that You're the clueless one here. if you live
long enough, you may be in the same condition. I didn't want
disability, but I thought that filing for it might force the VA to find
out what was wrong, and do something. Instead, I was awarded 100% VA
disability in less than two weeks from the filing date. Be VERY careful
in your day to day life, or you could end up the same way.


I can almost believe your obvious lies about serving in
management capacity because of your warped and
twisted attitudes.


Obvious lies? And you call me names. Its no more, or less than I'd
expect from you after reading your posts for the past year.


But the shallowness of your post
insures me this is not the case. I can see it now: A
lifetime of frustration and inability to succeed, stuck
in a deadend job, being passed by younger employees,
and all the time kissing the bosses ass as you become
the hatefull little troll you are; hiding under your bridge
waiting for some scraps to be thrown your way, even
though your tongue is almost worn-out from applying
it liberally to your bosses backside to curry favor, and
trying at the same time to speak the same vile hate-
full lies he/she spreads to keep labor under control.
I imagine you call that "being successful."


You are a world champ at 'seeing' misinformation. You sure seem to
like using terms about tongues and asses, so I can only assume that
you've had a lifetime of personal experience. Keep it up, and they may
have to name a disease after you.

In a union electronics shop, "Quality Assurance" was a 'management'
job. I left there to open my own business and had three school
districts under service contracts. I NEVER had any problems dealing with
them, to the point that they didn't care that I was in the schools
during regular hours.


How frustrating it must be, after all the years of debasing
yourself to find yourself so full of hate. And the problem
can't be you, or your ass-kissing recipient boss, so
you now target unions as the cause of your lack of
success. How common.


Lack of success? Any more lies you'd care to spew? I had more
business than I could handle, till my health started to fail. It must
be you who's frustrated. I'm thankful to have survived over two years of
being stuck in bed.


I can only say I'm thankfull I never had to work with you;
one more pompous ass I didn't have to meet. Hooray!!


No more than i would have hated to put up with the likes of you.


And you can stick your "Communist" comment where
the sun-doesn't-shine you clueless moron ****. Try
to read some history.


Bend over. Theses are not 'grand daddy's union', and any comparison
of today's unions to what they did is a HUGE insult.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

rigger wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in
the
military?


Are you stupid? Do you really think command gives a
rats ass whether you live or die in the army. Hell, they
won't even take care of you properly when you have your
arms or legs blown off.


Gee. Dennis. I was classed 4F and couldn't enlist. In fact, I
received five separate 4F ratings. Then they discovered my electronics
background and drafted me. I tested out of a three year electronics
school, and was awarded "Television Equipment Repairman" which meant I
was qualified to service equipment for TV studios, control rooms, high
power transmitters and microwave equipment. My records stated that I
was unfit for combat, so that kind of blows away, "Are you stupid? Do
you really think command gives a rats ass whether you live or die in the
army.", doesn't it? My DD-214 list my secondary MOS as N/A, meaning
they couldn't send me to a comabt zone to fight.


This is the best anology you can come-up with? If
it was so great why didn't you stay in?? Liar.


Several reasons, actually. I'm not a union man, and my MOS of
Broadcast Engineer was being phased out, and replaced with civilians who
were paid over four times what I received.


Are you EVER right about anyone?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On Nov 14, 2:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
rigger wrote:

Since you post like a scumbag and address others with
disrespect I assume you like to be treated in this manner
as well, therefore I will do so.

You've never needed an excuse before. If I'm a scumbag, what does
that leave for you?

You depict yourself as a clueless selfish ass. This may
explain why it is you like to stay in the office with your
other back-stabbing ilk.

Office? WTH office are you talking about? I am now 100% disabled
and can only work an hour or two per day, but that doesn't stop me from
doing SOMETHING. Health issues my whole life didn't stop me from
working, till they got so bad that people were afraid I'd get hurt on
the job. It's obvious that You're the clueless one here. if you live
long enough, you may be in the same condition. I didn't want
disability, but I thought that filing for it might force the VA to find
out what was wrong, and do something. Instead, I was awarded 100% VA
disability in less than two weeks from the filing date. Be VERY careful
in your day to day life, or you could end up the same way.

I can almost believe your obvious lies about serving in
management capacity because of your warped and
twisted attitudes.

Obvious lies? And you call me names. Its no more, or less than I'd
expect from you after reading your posts for the past year.

But the shallowness of your post
insures me this is not the case. I can see it now: A
lifetime of frustration and inability to succeed, stuck
in a deadend job, being passed by younger employees,
and all the time kissing the bosses ass as you become
the hatefull little troll you are; hiding under your bridge
waiting for some scraps to be thrown your way, even
though your tongue is almost worn-out from applying
it liberally to your bosses backside to curry favor, and
trying at the same time to speak the same vile hate-
full lies he/she spreads to keep labor under control.
I imagine you call that "being successful."

You are a world champ at 'seeing' misinformation. You sure seem to
like using terms about tongues and asses, so I can only assume that
you've had a lifetime of personal experience. Keep it up, and they may
have to name a disease after you.

In a union electronics shop, "Quality Assurance" was a 'management'
job. I left there to open my own business and had three school
districts under service contracts. I NEVER had any problems dealing with
them, to the point that they didn't care that I was in the schools
during regular hours.

How frustrating it must be, after all the years of debasing
yourself to find yourself so full of hate. And the problem
can't be you, or your ass-kissing recipient boss, so
you now target unions as the cause of your lack of
success. How common.

Lack of success? Any more lies you'd care to spew? I had more
business than I could handle, till my health started to fail. It must
be you who's frustrated. I'm thankful to have survived over two years of
being stuck in bed.

I can only say I'm thankfull I never had to work with you;
one more pompous ass I didn't have to meet. Hooray!!

No more than i would have hated to put up with the likes of you.

And you can stick your "Communist" comment where
the sun-doesn't-shine you clueless moron ****. Try
to read some history.

Bend over. Theses are not 'grand daddy's union', and any comparison
of today's unions to what they did is a HUGE insult.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Better, but still not right.

Attack the messenger NOT the message.

dennis
in nca

On Nov 14, 2:19 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
rigger wrote:

On Nov 13, 9:43 am, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

If unions are so great, why doesn't everyone beg to enlist in
the
military?

Are you stupid? Do you really think command gives a
rats ass whether you live or die in the army. Hell, they
won't even take care of you properly when you have your
arms or legs blown off.

Gee. Dennis. I was classed 4F and couldn't enlist. In fact, I
received five separate 4F ratings. Then they discovered my electronics
background and drafted me. I tested out of a three year electronics
school, and was awarded "Television Equipment Repairman" which meant I
was qualified to service equipment for TV studios, control rooms, high
power transmitters and microwave equipment. My records stated that I
was unfit for combat, so that kind of blows away, "Are you stupid? Do
you really think command gives a rats ass whether you live or die in the
army.", doesn't it? My DD-214 list my secondary MOS as N/A, meaning
they couldn't send me to a comabt zone to fight.

This is the best anology you can come-up with? If
it was so great why didn't you stay in?? Liar.

Several reasons, actually. I'm not a union man, and my MOS of
Broadcast Engineer was being phased out, and replaced with civilians who
were paid over four times what I received.

Are you EVER right about anyone?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Are you EVER right about anyone?

Are YOU?

dennis
in nca

Of course, there's always two sides to everything...

Anti-Union: The local power company raised electric rates in an area where
many of the people live off of $8/hr or less while their union employees
make $32/hr, that's stealing from the poor and it just isn't right.

Pro-Union: The plant I work for offered me the same money with better
benefits but worse work hours and conditions and I had to endure a $5/hr pay
cut for my 6 month probation before going to top pay. The company took away
many of the benefits before my probation was up, they were gone before I was
eligible for them. The company has taken away wages and/or benefits almost
every year since I've been there. During the union drive, the company gave
us a list of reasons to vote no, and took most of those reasons away from us
2 weeks after we voted no. After 4 years with the company my wage was less
than it was when I started, and less than it was 4 years before I started.

In general I would prefer to not need a Union but I would vote for a Union
where I work because I really feel companies like that are the reasons to
have Unions. How would you like to agree to a position at a certain wage
and benefits package and 4 months later they say 'we changed our mind, we're
not giving you what we agreed to'. This is a rural area and there aren't an
abundance of electrical maintenance or electrical controls engineering
positions available with in a reasonable driving distance. The good news is
that so many maintenance people quit that we get scheduled enough overtime
to take home more $$$ now than we did before the last pay cuts.

Sometimes I think we need a husband's union.
In the early 1970s a man would be ashamed if he washed the dishes and
anyone found out.
Now in 2007, husbands have been degraded to the point of washing the dishes.

I am calling for a general strike.
All husbands, just drink beer and watch TV until we get a new marriage
contract with a no dish washing clause.

In article ,
Clark Magnuson wrote:

Sometimes I think we need a husband's union.
In the early 1970s a man would be ashamed if he washed the dishes and
anyone found out.
Now in 2007, husbands have been degraded to the point of washing the dishes.

I am calling for a general strike.
All husbands, just drink beer and watch TV until we get a new marriage
contract with a no dish washing clause.

Why is there no expiration date on a marriage license? I propose a 5
year expiration date as a 'revenue enhancer' to make politicians love it


Free men own guns - www(dot)geocities(dot)com/CapitolHill/5357/

On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 03:14:59 -0800, the renowned Clark Magnuson
wrote:

Sometimes I think we need a husband's union.
In the early 1970s a man would be ashamed if he washed the dishes and
anyone found out.
Now in 2007, husbands have been degraded to the point of washing the dishes.

I am calling for a general strike.
All husbands, just drink beer and watch TV until we get a new marriage
contract with a no dish washing clause.

Okay, I'm starting this afternoon. Right after raking the leaves.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Nov 14, 2:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
rigger wrote:

Since you post like a scumbag and address others with
disrespect I assume you like to be treated in this manner
as well, therefore I will do so.

You've never needed an excuse before. If I'm a scumbag, what does
that leave for you?

You depict yourself as a clueless selfish ass. This may
explain why it is you like to stay in the office with your
other back-stabbing ilk.

Office? WTH office are you talking about? I am now 100% disabled
and can only work an hour or two per day, but that doesn't stop me from
doing SOMETHING. Health issues my whole life didn't stop me from
working, till they got so bad that people were afraid I'd get hurt on
the job. It's obvious that You're the clueless one here. if you live
long enough, you may be in the same condition. I didn't want
disability, but I thought that filing for it might force the VA to find
out what was wrong, and do something. Instead, I was awarded 100% VA
disability in less than two weeks from the filing date. Be VERY careful
in your day to day life, or you could end up the same way.

I can almost believe your obvious lies about serving in
management capacity because of your warped and
twisted attitudes.

Obvious lies? And you call me names. Its no more, or less than I'd
expect from you after reading your posts for the past year.

But the shallowness of your post
insures me this is not the case. I can see it now: A
lifetime of frustration and inability to succeed, stuck
in a deadend job, being passed by younger employees,
and all the time kissing the bosses ass as you become
the hatefull little troll you are; hiding under your bridge
waiting for some scraps to be thrown your way, even
though your tongue is almost worn-out from applying
it liberally to your bosses backside to curry favor, and
trying at the same time to speak the same vile hate-
full lies he/she spreads to keep labor under control.
I imagine you call that "being successful."

You are a world champ at 'seeing' misinformation. You sure seem to
like using terms about tongues and asses, so I can only assume that
you've had a lifetime of personal experience. Keep it up, and they may
have to name a disease after you.

In a union electronics shop, "Quality Assurance" was a 'management'
job. I left there to open my own business and had three school
districts under service contracts. I NEVER had any problems dealing with
them, to the point that they didn't care that I was in the schools
during regular hours.

How frustrating it must be, after all the years of debasing
yourself to find yourself so full of hate. And the problem
can't be you, or your ass-kissing recipient boss, so
you now target unions as the cause of your lack of
success. How common.

Lack of success? Any more lies you'd care to spew? I had more
business than I could handle, till my health started to fail. It must
be you who's frustrated. I'm thankful to have survived over two years of
being stuck in bed.

I can only say I'm thankfull I never had to work with you;
one more pompous ass I didn't have to meet. Hooray!!

No more than i would have hated to put up with the likes of you.

And you can stick your "Communist" comment where
the sun-doesn't-shine you clueless moron ****. Try
to read some history.

Bend over. Theses are not 'grand daddy's union', and any comparison
of today's unions to what they did is a HUGE insult.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Terrell
Yes I remember that name. It was in the newspaper. An article
about the VA giving someone getting 100 % full disability for
Syphilis. That explains all of the hate and the weak mind. I am sorry
that you have been ill. May God forgive you.