hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110 instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the drum
switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe
i

-snip-


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg





think i might have figured it out.

b.w.

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do
believe
i

-snip-


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg





think i might have figured it out.

b.w.



Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul

Here is the best explanation I have found:
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe
i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to
the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110
instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the
drum switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

"Jean-Paul Roy" wrote in message

Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul




yes, thanks for your interest Jean-Paul. i wanted to post a drawing asking
for advise as to whether or not i wired it correctly. i made a drawing and
uploaded it to...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg

first i wired up the drum switch only just to the 4 wires coming from the
motor, i didn't hook the wires up to the pins inside the motor. got a
"hum/buzz" sound, obviously something wrong. gambled that i needed to hook
the "hot" and "neutral" wires up to their respective pins (white-4
orange-1). i did that and it ran, whew, wow, yay!

my concern now is that because i didn't hook up the red and black wire to
any of the pins i'm doing something wrong and either will burn up the motor
or it won't generate it's rated horsepower.

can anyone confirm that i did the wiring correctly? as far as i can see
none of the wires have any numbers printed on them or little numbered tags,
etc. (i've seen this in other electric motors).

thanks.

(it does run forward and reverse and it *sounds* ok, but i'm no expert at
all.)

b.w.


(oh, trying to hook it up to 220 totally boggled my mind, i gave up on 220
and went with the 110.)
(even after reading the excellent information in the link provided by Glenn
i was still unable to figure out how to wire it up to 220.)

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:l370g.34872$gE.1089@dukeread06...
Here is the best explanation I have found:
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf

--
Glenn Ashmore




Hey Glenn,
big thank you for that link. read the whole thing, still not sure
though if i wired up my motor right. i'm concerned that i didn't hook up
the red wire and the black wire to the pins as specified in the directions.
(previous message w/ link to diagram
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg )

b.w.

According to William Wixon :
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110 instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the drum
switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

I see that you have later posted that you believe that you have
figured it out.

If not -- it may take a bit more information. There are fairly
easy ways to set it up for 240V with the information which you have
given and the drum switch which you have, but they have the disadvantage
of leaving one side of the motor hot when it is switched off. There is
a better way to do it. I believe that the black and red wires are the
starting winding (120V only) These are the only two wires which change
place from the forward to the reverse setting.

Terminals (1) and (4) are each connected to *one* of the two run
windings inside the motor where you can't see it.

The other ends of those two windings are white and orange. It
doesn't matter which is which for our purposes. But -- I believe that
the white wire is the other end of the winding connected to terminal
(1), and the orange wire is the other end of the winding connected to
terminal (4).

So -- for 240V operation, they are both connected to terminal 3,
which is not connected to anything inside the motor. It is there just
to allow such things as this.

They are actually reversing the pair of wires for the start
winding by disconnecting them both. However, an alternate way to do
this is to leave one end of the start winding connected to terminal (3),
and alternately connect the other to either terminal (1) or terminal (4)
to select motor direction.

Since you want to do the selection at the switch, instead of at
the motor, this is where terminal (2) comes into play. I would suggest
that you connect black to terminal (3) (along with the white and orange),
and connect red to terminal (4).

Now -- you run to the switch. wires from terminals (1), (4), and
(2).
(Also make sure that the motor has a safety ground going to the ground
from the power cord and to the frame of the lathe.)

Now -- the place where we need more information. We need a way
to identify the switch terminals, which you simply drew as:


Forward
o-------o


o-------o


o-------o



Reverse
o o
| |
| |
o o


o-------o


We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

Note that you can't "plug" reverse -- that is switch from FOWARD
to REVERSE or vice versa while the motor is spinning. You have to
switch it to STOP, wait for the motor to almost stop, and then switch it
to the other direction. You can only plug reverse three-phase motors,
or (perhaps) repulsion start motors -- which you don't have at the
moment.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually
connected to inside the motor.
Apart from start and run windings, there's other stuff like capacitors
and overload switches to confuse us.
Unfortunately the terminals aren't always using the same code
letters/numbers to describe them, but they can be a help.
One system I came across uses codes beginning with U, V and Z, while
another uses codes beginning with P and T.
Here's how I successfully wired up a Taiwanese single-phase 240V motor
for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead
of a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7

In article , William Wixon says...
can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

Do it this way. You can use the standard 3 pole, center off drum
switch to do it:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/wire.jpg

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

According to William Wixon :

"Jean-Paul Roy" wrote in message

Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul




yes, thanks for your interest Jean-Paul. i wanted to post a drawing asking
for advise as to whether or not i wired it correctly. i made a drawing and
uploaded it to...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg

first i wired up the drum switch only just to the 4 wires coming from the
motor, i didn't hook the wires up to the pins inside the motor. got a
"hum/buzz" sound, obviously something wrong.

Yes -- you were getting power only to the start winding -- not
to either of the run windings. If you left it powered up, you would
either burn out the start winding -- or far more likely, you would blow
the innards out of the start capacitor. (If that happens, you will be
able to tell by the smell -- and start capacitors are cheap, at least. :-)

gambled that i needed to hook
the "hot" and "neutral" wires up to their respective pins (white-4
orange-1). i did that and it ran, whew, wow, yay!

my concern now is that because i didn't hook up the red and black wire to
any of the pins i'm doing something wrong and either will burn up the motor
or it won't generate it's rated horsepower.

Those extra pins (2) and (3) are isolated, and are there just
for convenience in connecting a remote switch or for connecting for 240V
operation.

It should give full rated horsepower -- but there are
significant problems here.

can anyone confirm that i did the wiring correctly? as far as i can see
none of the wires have any numbers printed on them or little numbered tags,
etc. (i've seen this in other electric motors).

1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

2) You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4
Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing
grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the
motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or
-- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not
shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn
the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.


I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for
240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it
either.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to
the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall
plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside
the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in
the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint
the screw head green.)

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better
choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently

Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.

thanks.

(it does run forward and reverse and it *sounds* ok, but i'm no expert at
all.)


b.w.


(oh, trying to hook it up to 220 totally boggled my mind, i gave up on 220
and went with the 110.)
(even after reading the excellent information in the link provided by Glenn
i was still unable to figure out how to wire it up to 220.)

Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.

If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send
me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.

But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how
to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.

1) First -- connect the black motor wire to motor terminal(3), and
the Red motor wire to motor terminal (2). There is nothing else
in the motor connected to these pins -- they are there only for
your convenience in such things as this. These two wires are
the start winding -- internally connected to the actual winding,
the capacitor (under the bulge), and the centrifugal switch.
This winding is 120V only -- though there is a trick which makes
it work in the motor wired for 240V.

2) Run wires from these two terminals to switch terminals (A) and
(D).

3) Connect the motor's orange wire to the motor's terminal (1) and
the motor's white wire to the motor's terminal (4). These get
left connected. They complete the connection of the two run
windings in parallel for 120V operation. You don't need to run
them out of the motor case at all.

3) Run the hot power line wire to switch terminals (C) and (E).

4) Run the neutral power line wire to switch terminal (B) and to
motor terminal (4).

Yes -- I said not to switch neutral -- but this is necessary to
reverse the start winding in 120V mode -- and at the same time,
the other side of the start winding is also disconnected from
the hot.

5) Run the switch terminal (F) to motor terminal (3).


And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As
suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and
that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as
I type this one. :-)

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,
which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)"
to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire.
Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter --
orange wire, not a number.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
| (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) |
| |
| (2) |
| |
| (3) |
| |
| (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) |
| |
| (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) |
| |
+----------------------------------------+

"-)|-" is the capacitor

"-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.

"-+WWW-" is a motor winding.

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)

Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.

If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run
windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V
from connections to (1) and (4).

If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are
connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the
motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to
terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still
leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.

However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is
120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can
be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these
windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V
connected to the motor.

I hope that this helps.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to jim rozen :
In article , William Wixon says...
can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

Do it this way. You can use the standard 3 pole, center off drum
switch to do it:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/wire.jpg

Unfortunately -- the design of his motor and terminal board hide
the details of the winding from him -- and the numbers assigned on that
terminal board don't match the ones shown on the schematic which you
pointed to.

Also -- the drawing of the switch which he has does not make it
easy for a non electronics or electrician type to map into the switch in
the schematic.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Jordan :
The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually
connected to inside the motor.

Yep -- I think that I have this one decoded. See my other posts
in this thread.

[ ... ]

Here's how I successfully wired up a Taiwanese single-phase 240V motor
for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead
of a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7

For whatever reason, I'm not able to access that site at this
time. But one thing which would worry me would be that your design
probably has the assumption that one side of the 240V is grounded. In
the case of US wiring, this is not true. Both sides are hot -- 120V
away from ground and neutral, so both sides need to be switched.

Aha! the image finally arrived. I see another problem as well.
That motor appears to not be designed to operate at 120V -- only at
240V, so the start winding is also a 240V winding. His is a
dual-voltage motor, with two 120V run windings in series for 240V, and
the center tap used to derive 120V for the start winding.

So -- it is a workable circuit for *your* motor and *your*
country's wiring -- but it won't work here in the USA. In particular,
even if he had a motor with a 240V start winding, the RUN/STOP toggle
switch would need to be DPST to open both hot windings for safety
reasons.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:

Aha! the image finally arrived. I see another problem as well.
That motor appears to not be designed to operate at 120V -- only at
240V, so the start winding is also a 240V winding. His is a
dual-voltage motor, with two 120V run windings in series for 240V, and
the center tap used to derive 120V for the start winding.

So -- it is a workable circuit for *your* motor and *your*
country's wiring -- but it won't work here in the USA. In particular,
even if he had a motor with a 240V start winding, the RUN/STOP toggle
switch would need to be DPST to open both hot windings for safety
reasons.

Thanks DoN
I've left out the earth, which is a third wire.
I thought that some parts of the USA had 240V system like here in Australia.
I thought also the drawing might shed some more light on the problem.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.

Jordan

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not
approved.


2) You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4

****. i didn't even notice that teh hot was hot all the way through to the
motor, i was so focused on getting the wires in the right position. that's
part of the reason i decided to bag trying to wire it up to 220 because i'd
have one lead hot all the to the motor there too. just as a fine point and
i don't want to contradict you but i think the neutral is switched, when the
drum switch is in the middle postion it's off. that's what i think anyhow.
dang about the hot though!


Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to
220, because one lead would be hot all the time. i figured i could just
unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like,
"yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i
figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way
to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.


grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the
motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or
-- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not
shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn
the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.



I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for
240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it
either.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run,
forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a
green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing
area. thanks.


the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall
plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside
the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in
the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint
the screw head green.)

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better


i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way,
but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.


choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently

Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.


ok. back to the drawing board.




Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.


thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after
this.



If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send
me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.

But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how



thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea
where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was
going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.)
:-(



to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.


i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO
want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your
other post.


-snipped, for now-




And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As
suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and
that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as
I type this one. :-)

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,


the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what
appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted
to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are
pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.



which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.


Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)"
to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire.
Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter --
orange wire, not a number.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
| (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) |
| |
| (2) |
| |
| (3) |
| |
| (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) |
| |
| (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) |
| |
+----------------------------------------+

"-)|-" is the capacitor

"-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.

"-+WWW-" is a motor winding.

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)


i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way,
(when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are
already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw
the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay
attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh
two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.



Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.


did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice
illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.



If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run
windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V
from connections to (1) and (4).

If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are
connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the
motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to
terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still
leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.

However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is
120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can
be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these
windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V
connected to the motor.

I hope that this helps.


thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic
debt to you.



Enjoy,
DoN.



b.w.

"Jordan" wrote in message
...
The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually

-snip-

for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead of
a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7


thanks for your help Jordan.

b.w.

According to Jordan :
DoN. Nichols wrote:

[ ... ]

So -- it is a workable circuit for *your* motor and *your*
country's wiring -- but it won't work here in the USA. In particular,
even if he had a motor with a 240V start winding, the RUN/STOP toggle
switch would need to be DPST to open both hot windings for safety
reasons.

Thanks DoN
I've left out the earth, which is a third wire.
I thought that some parts of the USA had 240V system like here in Australia.

Well ... most parts of the USA have 240V available in the homes
along with 120 -- but most loads are 120, so the design is a center
tapped transformer providing 240 between the ends, and 120 ether side of
the center tap. So -- unlike your 240V, ours has neither side grounded,
but instead floating at 120V above ground. As a result, it changes
what is a safe circuit, and what is not.

I thought also the drawing might shed some more light on the problem.

It did -- for the motors which you have available, and it showed
the principle that you had to reverse the connections to either the
start winding or the run winding -- it doesn't really matter which.
(But his motor was hiding the presence of the windings -- just giving
you wires to move around without showing what they were connected to.
:-) It took me a bit of time to figure out what was really in that
motor, based on what connections were being shown. And I've *worked*
with that kind of motor before.

Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.

I don't think so. And you were trying to help -- though you
didn't at that time understand the difference between our 240V and
yours.

Thanks,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


-snip-



We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

Note that you can't "plug" reverse -- that is switch from FOWARD
to REVERSE or vice versa while the motor is spinning. You have to
switch it to STOP, wait for the motor to almost stop, and then switch it
to the other direction. You can only plug reverse three-phase motors,
or (perhaps) repulsion start motors -- which you don't have at the
moment.

Good Luck,
DoN.




quick reply (full reply tomorrow) here's what i got from your description.
i have a feeling i didn't get it right. please let me know if this drawing
matches your description.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240.jpg


b.w.

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

Unfortunately -- the design of his motor and terminal board hide
the details of the winding from him -- and the numbers assigned on that
terminal board don't match the ones shown on the schematic which you
pointed to.

Correct. In most motors, if you want to reverse that way (using
the CT of the run windings) you need to do some digging.

Unless he really understands what's going on in there - that is,
can look at the wires inside, and map them in his mind to the
conceptual diagram on paper - he's going to have a tough time
achieving his goal.

Most folks who try to wire a drum switch up to a single phase
motor give up in frustration after a while, because they can't
just go red-to-red, black-to-black, and white-to-white the way
electricans 'wire' things. You can't rely on wire numbers,
colors, terminal board markings, etc when doing this.

Rules for this stuff a

1) make a diagram.

2) wire according to that diagram.

3) draw the best possible picture of it after you are done,
using the nomenclature for individual terminals and wires
that you yourself applied to project.

The diagram I gave him won't be a cure-all. The numbers won't
match his project. But if he can understand what's going
on in the diagram (the three pole, center off switch is drawn
quite clearly, that's what a drum switch looks like on paper)
then he has a chance of making his *own* diagram that suits
his purposes. Topologically, his and mine will be nearly
identical - possibly with the exception of the thermal cutout
switch. That adds one extra wire between drum switch and
motor. OTherwise you can do it with six.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


-snip-



We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

[ ... ]

quick reply (full reply tomorrow) here's what i got from your description.
i have a feeling i didn't get it right. please let me know if this drawing
matches your description.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240.jpg

A good thing that you drew it out. I see one problem. I
apparently did not mention that the (RED) motor wire should also go to
terminal (2) instead of to terminal (4).

Other than that -- it looks good.

As drawn, the power from switch terminal (E) goes to an
otherwise empty terminal, and thus does nothing. As shown, it would run
in the same direction no matter which switch position you selected.

Oh -- and it it runs in reverse when the switch is set to
FORWARD and vise versa, swap the wires to pins (B) and (C) on the
switch. (Or the wires from the switch to pins 1 and 4 at the motor. I
think that the motor has tabs which you can push connectors onto, as
well as studs which you can wrap wires around or connect crimped ring
terminals to, so if you used the push-on crimp terminals, it may be
easier to change at the motor.

I would be interested to see what your drawing of my 120V
description looks like as well. It may also have an error from my
forgetting to describe *everything*.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not
approved.

The reason that it is not approved is that it can create unsafe
conditions, of course.

[ ... ]

Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to
220, because one lead would be hot all the time.

Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I
came up with a fairly ugly pattern when I first re-wired my Clausing
from 120V to 240V. I later re-wired it for a much cleaner design,
after battling the available switch sections in the drum switch. (It
would have been easier with one more switch section, but it would then
need more wires between switch and motor, so this is better overall.

i figured i could just
unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like,
"yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i
figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way
to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.

Good to plan for safety. But I know how the eagerness to get
something working can result in an unsafe design.

[ ... ]

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.

Good.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run,
forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a
green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing
area. thanks.

I wasn't sure whether you had actually run a ground wire and
just not drawn it, so I felt that it was a good idea to mention it just
in case.

[ ... ]

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better


i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way,
but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.

With a 3/4 HP motor, it will probably be a wash in most things,
though the higher currents to be made and interrupted by the drum switch
will result in slightly faster wear of the contacts. I don't know
whether it will make enough difference to result in failure in your
lifetime when used purely as a hobby lathe.

[ ... ]

Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.


thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after
this.

So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.

[ ... ]

thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea
where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was
going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.)
:-(

I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)



to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.


i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO
want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your
other post.

As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.

[ ... ]

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,


the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what
appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted
to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are
pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.

Asbestos? That is an old switch, isn't it. :-)

More recent ones (e.g. about 1957 -- the date of manufacture of
my Clausing) seem to have the label printed on white vinyl. Of course,
the switch may be a later addition, as I've seen catalog photos of the
lathe with pushbuttons instead of a drum switch. :-)

which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.

As is common for this kind of motor from other manufacturers.
They all assume that if you want run-time reversible, you will be using
three-phase motors. Nice if you have three phase power available. Or,
if you use a VFD to get variable speed while you are at it.

And the wiring for a three phase motor with the same drum switch
is much simpler.

[ ... ]

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)


i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way,
(when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are
already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw
the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay
attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh
two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.

Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether
there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other
terminals before applying power. Just because my tests on my (much
older) motors show that does not promise that HF did not do something
strange. :-)

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.


did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice
illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.

I did not check it out at the time -- and the article has now
expired off my newsreader so I can't check it now. As a result, I don't
know what it may show. (It was pretty late at night when I hit it the
first time, and I already had an image in my head of how to do the
wiring and how the motor was set up.

I'll snip my text description for 120V -- as I believe that you
already have it saved off.

thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic
debt to you.

I just like to share what I know to help others.

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?

It makes reading a little more difficult, and it drives my
spelling checker nuts. :-)
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I


wow, you ain't kiddin'


came up with a fairly ugly pattern when I first re-wired my Clausing
from 120V to 240V. I later re-wired it for a much cleaner design,
after battling the available switch sections in the drum switch. (It
would have been easier with one more switch section, but it would then
need more wires between switch and motor, so this is better overall.


whew. i've been working on this problem for hours and hours and hours.
i've been trying to figure out a solution on my own. i thought it would be
more satisfying if i could've figured it on myself. actually i do think i
came up with a workable solution but it would necessitate buying a new,
different design drum switch. (that is if Jim's CRAPPY schematic works).
i'm impressed with your wire routing.



I wasn't sure whether you had actually run a ground wire and
just not drawn it, so I felt that it was a good idea to mention it just
in case.

thanks. hadn't run the ground wire yet but kept eyeballing the green screw
on the motor housing reminding myself that i would when i got it figured
out.



With a 3/4 HP motor, it will probably be a wash in most things,
though the higher currents to be made and interrupted by the drum switch
will result in slightly faster wear of the contacts. I don't know
whether it will make enough difference to result in failure in your
lifetime when used purely as a hobby lathe.


yeah, like you said, prolly won't be an issue.



So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.


yeah, that purple wire going to nowhere was confusing me and making me feel
very depressed.
i swapped the red wire end for end and am hoping that will be ok,
red/black - black/red.



I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)


thanks again for helping me. you've really put a lot of time and energy
into this problem. i'm eternally indebted to you. i've always wished my
brain could grasp and comprehend electrical stuff. every time i've tried to
solder up some sort of home made electrical device i've failed miserably, i
mean, i can do, i believe, basic electric house wiring, and i can solder,
but electronic stuff never works.



As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.


thanks. i made up some more diagrams in Paint last night.


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic and the drawings in the link Glenn posted
(that have major missing information). (and my own sketches from
disassembling the motor) this is the one where i need a new/different
switch. i don't know if i can locate a switch like this to buy so was
plotting to try to modify the switch i have now.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240final.jpg


-snip-




Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether


:-) i have an electrical checker thing. not sure if it's called an
ohmmeter.



there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other


i dissassembled the motor. as you suspeced earlier, there aren't (any
connections between 2 and 4). i took apart the motor to trace the lines.
the only way i could figure out how to do it (easily) was to poke one of the
probes through the varnish coating on the windings wires. i'm worried it's
not ok to rupture that coating. i sprayed polyurethane onto the place where
i broke through the coating. hope that's ok too. as a side question, that
is something i could never understand. how/why the electric current wants
go to through the wires instead of just bridging across each other to the
"shortest route". i always thought that VERY thin varnish coating wouldn't
be enough to insulate the wires from each other. how does that work?!?!



terminals before applying power. Just because my tests on my (much
older) motors show that does not promise that HF did not do something
strange. :-)

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

:-) besides a safe installation i also like a neat installation. my intent
is to get some stranded 14ga. wire and bundle four wires
(black/white/red/green) inside a 3/8" BX jacket to run between the motor
and the switch (with crimp eye connectors on the ends) and run a 14/3
extension cord from the switch to the 240 wall socket.




I did not check it out at the time -- and the article has now
expired off my newsreader so I can't check it now. As a result, I don't
know what it may show. (It was pretty late at night when I hit it the
first time, and I already had an image in my head of how to do the
wiring and how the motor was set up.

I'll snip my text description for 120V -- as I believe that you
already have it saved off.


I just like to share what I know to help others.

Enjoy,
DoN.

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?


sorry about that. it must be a habit picked up from using various chat
programs. typing as fast as possible. the long explanation for not using
capital "I" is i was trying to train myself to have some humility.



It makes reading a little more difficult, and it drives my
spelling checker nuts. :-)


sorry.


thanks Don dude!

b.w.

oh, i uploaded a cleaned-up version of your wire routing drawing.

www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240dons.jpg

i swapped the wires to "C" and "D" as you suggested. and swapped black for
red.

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , DoN. Nichols says...

Correct. In most motors, if you want to reverse that way (using
the CT of the run windings) you need to do some digging.

-snip-

switch. That adds one extra wire between drum switch and
motor. OTherwise you can do it with six.

Jim




oh, Jim, i was just teasing about the drawing in the link you posted.
thanks for taking the time to help me.

b.w.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


A good thing that you drew it out. I see one problem. I
apparently did not mention that the (RED) motor wire should also go to
terminal (2) instead of to terminal (4).

Other than that -- it looks good.

As drawn, the power from switch terminal (E) goes to an
otherwise empty terminal, and thus does nothing. As shown, it would run
in the same direction no matter which switch position you selected.

Oh -- and it it runs in reverse when the switch is set to
FORWARD and vise versa, swap the wires to pins (B) and (C) on the
switch. (Or the wires from the switch to pins 1 and 4 at the motor. I
think that the motor has tabs which you can push connectors onto, as
well as studs which you can wrap wires around or connect crimped ring
terminals to, so if you used the push-on crimp terminals, it may be
easier to change at the motor.

I would be interested to see what your drawing of my 120V
description looks like as well. It may also have an error from my
forgetting to describe *everything*.

Good Luck,
DoN.



i abandoned the 120V drawing, didn't complete it, didn't save it. sorry.

i finally wired up the motor and switch. disappointed to report the darn
thing won't start on it's own, in either direction. it does run if i spin
it up by hand but won't start up on it's own. could it be because i
transposed the black/red wires? dang!!! did i burn something up/out?

b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


Not necessarily -- but it takes some somewhat tricky wiring. I


wow, you ain't kiddin'

[ ... ]

whew. i've been working on this problem for hours and hours and hours.
i've been trying to figure out a solution on my own. i thought it would be
more satisfying if i could've figured it on myself. actually i do think i
came up with a workable solution but it would necessitate buying a new,
different design drum switch. (that is if Jim's CRAPPY schematic works).
i'm impressed with your wire routing.

Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.

What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal
(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================

I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals.

[ ... ]

So you did -- and your drawing showed something which I forgot
to mention in the wiring, so it is good that you posted it, instead of
just assuming that you could use it as described. (It was the position
of the (Red) wire in the motor.


yeah, that purple wire going to nowhere was confusing me and making me feel
very depressed.
i swapped the red wire end for end and am hoping that will be ok,
red/black - black/red.

Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is
good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)



I've seen electricians who would make similar mistakes. It
helps that I've done electricity and electronics as a hobby since late
grade school, and worked in it since the early 1960s until a few years
before I retired. (I spent some of the last years at work as a unix
networking administrator -- another of my hobbys. :-)


thanks again for helping me. you've really put a lot of time and energy
into this problem. i'm eternally indebted to you. i've always wished my
brain could grasp and comprehend electrical stuff. every time i've tried to
solder up some sort of home made electrical device i've failed miserably, i
mean, i can do, i believe, basic electric house wiring, and i can solder,
but electronic stuff never works.

Well ... as I said -- I was playing with this kind of thing back
when I was in grade school -- so it was plenty of time for things to
sink in. :-)

And I also did a lot of playing with telephone switch gear, so
I learned relay logic, which is not that different from what we are
doing here.

As you did. I would like to see the results of a Paint drawing
of this one done from my text description too -- so I can check for
other things which I forgot to mention, like what I forgot in the 240V
option.


thanks. i made up some more diagrams in Paint last night.

And I've downloaded them.

this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?

and the drawings in the link Glenn posted
(that have major missing information). (and my own sketches from
disassembling the motor) this is the one where i need a new/different
switch. i don't know if i can locate a switch like this to buy so was
plotting to try to modify the switch i have now.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240final.jpg

Comments above.

Do you have an ohmmeter? It would not hurt to check whether


:-) i have an electrical checker thing. not sure if it's called an
ohmmeter.

Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?

there are connections between terminals (2) and (4) and any other


i dissassembled the motor. as you suspeced earlier, there aren't (any
connections between 2 and 4).

Good -- glad to have that confirmed.

i took apart the motor to trace the lines.
the only way i could figure out how to do it (easily) was to poke one of the
probes through the varnish coating on the windings wires. i'm worried it's
not ok to rupture that coating. i sprayed polyurethane onto the place where
i broke through the coating. hope that's ok too. as a side question, that
is something i could never understand. how/why the electric current wants
go to through the wires instead of just bridging across each other to the
"shortest route". i always thought that VERY thin varnish coating wouldn't
be enough to insulate the wires from each other. how does that work?!?!

Hmm ... that enamel on the wire is tough stuff, and is pretty
good insulation. And remember that no single winding on this motor has
more than 120V across it. And there is an additional layer of
insulation wrapped around each winding to separate them where they
cross. And that is quite sufficient.

I don't know how good the polyurethane is, but it is at least
better than not replacing the insulation at all.

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).

[ ... ]

Anyway -- with the wiring setup which I have suggested for 240V,
you only need three switched wires -- plus the ground -- which may make
it easier. And you can use the terminals for connections there, so you
won't have bundles of electrical tape insulating splices. :-)

:-) besides a safe installation i also like a neat installation. my intent
is to get some stranded 14ga. wire and bundle four wires
(black/white/red/green) inside a 3/8" BX jacket to run between the motor
and the switch (with crimp eye connectors on the ends) and run a 14/3
extension cord from the switch to the 240 wall socket.

O.K. One suggestion. Don't use white -- look for some other
color, because white should be neutral in house wiring (even though
black is ground in electronics wiring).

[ ... ]

P.S. Out of curiosity -- why do you not use capital letters for
the start of sentences and for the pronoun "I" (including forms
like "I'd" "I'll", "I'm" and such)?


sorry about that. it must be a habit picked up from using various chat
programs. typing as fast as possible. the long explanation for not using
capital "I" is i was trying to train myself to have some humility.

I was afraid that latter was the reason for the lower-case 'i'.
I opt to go with the standard English language writing process, as it is
easier for others to read. (And the capital on the first word of each
sentence helps to distinguish between a period '.' and a comma ',' --
which are a bit difficult to tell apart on my screen at my usual
distance.

[ ... ]

thanks Don dude!

You're welcome.

b.w.

oh, i uploaded a cleaned-up version of your wire routing drawing.

www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240dons.jpg

i swapped the wires to "C" and "D" as you suggested. and swapped black for
red.

You mean 'C' and 'B'? That was for the case of the motor
running the wrong direction when you switch it to forward. Just showing
you one of the easy ways to set things up so the motor runs the right
direction when switched to FORWARD.

The wires on (E) and (F) can be interchanged as well, but I
selected that pattern to make the (L2) hot line jumper between (F) and
(D) short, and not have to jump around the switch. There are also ways
to set it up with (A), (B), (C), and (D) to move that hot line to (C)
and (E), and the other hot to (B). But I started out with one hot to
(A), and that sort of pre-selected (D) as the other hot.

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the
frame/base and the motor itself, so that would leave the motor floating
relative to the lathe frame. In my case, the drum switch is screwed
directly to the headstock casting, so it is well enough grounded.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

[ ... ]

i finally wired up the motor and switch. disappointed to report the darn
thing won't start on it's own, in either direction. it does run if i spin
it up by hand but won't start up on it's own. could it be because i
transposed the black/red wires?

That would only change which direction it starts -- assuming
that one is connected to pin (3) and the other to pin (2) as shown in
the "240dons.jpg" image.

dang!!! did i burn something up/out?

First question -- just to be sure. You *are* connecting it to
240V aren't you? I'm not sure that the start winding would produce
enough torque to reliably start it at 120V.

O.K. Time to do a bit of debugging. Are the motor wires
push-on crimp connectors? If so, disconnect the motor wire from (2) and
push it onto (1). Switch the motor on, and see if it starts. If so,
note which direction, then stop the motor and move that same wire to (4)
and switch the motor on again. If that spins up, check that it spins in
the other direction. If you don't have push-on connectors, you will
have to do a bit more work wiring it up -- or use clip leads for the
tests, if you have those.

If it spins up, then the start winding is now proven to work, so
it is in the wiring at the switch.

If it doesn't, use a meter to measure the power between (3) and
wherever you have the wire connected.

That voltage should measure something near 120VAC. If it
measures the right amount, and the motor still does not start on its
own, then we have to check what has happened inside the motor. It could
be that the centrifugal switch is not making contact, or the wires to
the capacitor have slipped off their terminals under the bulge. (Or --
the capacitor was damaged during earlier tests when it did not spin up.
Pull the bulge and look at the capacitor. If there is gunk inside the
cover, or oozing out the end of the capacitor, it needs to be replaced.

However if it does spin up in the two earlier tests, you now
need to measure the voltage coming from the switch to terminal (2).
Measure that relative to terminal (3).
That should be near 120V when the motor is switched on, and close to
zero when it is switched off.

If you don't get that, it is a problem with the wire from (E) to
(2), or the switch element which connects between (E) and (F) in the
FORWARD and REVERSE positions. Check all of that wiring to see where
you are not getting your power through. And measure the (E) to (F)
switching (with the motor unplugged, of course) to make sure that the
drum switch *does* connect them in both the FORWARD and REVERSE
positions.

One other possibility -- is the switch upside down relative to
the drawing? That is, the terminals which I have called (E) and (F)
should connect both in FORWARD and REVERSE, while if you have exchanged
ends on the switch, you will only get connection in the FORWARD
position, (really terminals (A) and (B).

A pity that we don't have actual labels on the terminals for the
drum switch, instead of the ones which I dreamed up to be able to talk
about this.

So -- do your tests and let me know what you find.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote...

Hi Don,
Thanks again for your patience.


First question -- just to be sure. You *are* connecting it to
240V aren't you? I'm not sure that the start winding would produce
enough torque to reliably start it at 120V.


I assumed I was. Today I went out, plugged it in, flipped the switch and
the dang thing strarted right up. Did it a couple more times and it
started, then it started NOT starting. I probed the two lines in and one of
them was dead. Probed it at the outlet and one was dead there too. Reset
teh breaker and both were hot. Started the motor and started up, kept
trying and it would start sometimes and wouldn't others. Probed teh wires
again and one was dead again. Reset the breaker, started to realize that it
was the breaker that was tripping. Thought it was internal problem with the
motor. Finally noticed (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot lines
going into the motor was touching the case. i had stripped just a LITTLE
too much insulation off one wire and (to my great embarrassment) one of the
hot wires was just barely touching the case, and of course, tripping the
breaker each time i flipped the drum switch. eeek. Guess it's a good thing
i had wired up the ground this time huh? So, now it starts but not 100%
reliably. I guess that'll have to be something I'm going to have to live
with. Seems to start right up like maybe 85% of the time, sometimes it
won't start at all, some times it starts jerkingly. Sorry to have caused
you to type all the below cringe. Thanks very much for your patience. It
sure has been a learning experience for me. It is fantastic to see this
motor running there clamped to my workbench.
It was fun to probe the wires in the switch. I was surprised to see, as
you say below, one of the wires was "...close to zero.". Woulda figured it
would either be 120 or ZERO. I assumed that must be juice remaining in the
capacitor huh? I was probing, getting either 120 or zero and one time i got
220 and was like "wha' da frig?!", oops, probed the two hot leads. I woulda
thought that woulda resulted in a flash and sparks. I think in the past
that woulda been my indicator that i had done something wrong (as in the
wire touching the case). If there was a bright flash and sparks then I knew
i must've done something wrong.

Wow. So again, a BIG thanks Don. Whew!

b.w.




O.K. Time to do a bit of debugging. Are the motor wires
push-on crimp connectors? If so, disconnect the motor wire from (2) and
push it onto (1). Switch the motor on, and see if it starts. If so,
note which direction, then stop the motor and move that same wire to (4)
and switch the motor on again. If that spins up, check that it spins in
the other direction. If you don't have push-on connectors, you will
have to do a bit more work wiring it up -- or use clip leads for the
tests, if you have those.

If it spins up, then the start winding is now proven to work, so
it is in the wiring at the switch.

If it doesn't, use a meter to measure the power between (3) and
wherever you have the wire connected.

That voltage should measure something near 120VAC. If it
measures the right amount, and the motor still does not start on its
own, then we have to check what has happened inside the motor. It could
be that the centrifugal switch is not making contact, or the wires to
the capacitor have slipped off their terminals under the bulge. (Or --
the capacitor was damaged during earlier tests when it did not spin up.
Pull the bulge and look at the capacitor. If there is gunk inside the
cover, or oozing out the end of the capacitor, it needs to be replaced.

However if it does spin up in the two earlier tests, you now
need to measure the voltage coming from the switch to terminal (2).
Measure that relative to terminal (3).
That should be near 120V when the motor is switched on, and close to
zero when it is switched off.

If you don't get that, it is a problem with the wire from (E) to
(2), or the switch element which connects between (E) and (F) in the
FORWARD and REVERSE positions. Check all of that wiring to see where
you are not getting your power through. And measure the (E) to (F)
switching (with the motor unplugged, of course) to make sure that the
drum switch *does* connect them in both the FORWARD and REVERSE
positions.

One other possibility -- is the switch upside down relative to
the drawing? That is, the terminals which I have called (E) and (F)
should connect both in FORWARD and REVERSE, while if you have exchanged
ends on the switch, you will only get connection in the FORWARD
position, (really terminals (A) and (B).

A pity that we don't have actual labels on the terminals for the
drum switch, instead of the ones which I dreamed up to be able to talk
about this.

So -- do your tests and let me know what you find.

Good Luck,
DoN.

"DoN. Nichols" wrote


Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.


Huh, I was afraid i wouldn't. The link posted by Glenn...
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf has illustrations
with that kind of switching pattern but I guess that must just be an
electrical schematic huh? :-( (****ed me off in that article the author
says something like "...you're on your own..." (with the "alternate
switching pattern", which of course MY drum switch has!)) (and i suspect
every other drum switch manufactured in the united states also has.)



What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal


Yeah, when I was trying to create a mental picture of what I needed I
thought "triple pole dual throw" switch, and tried to find it on on-line
(mcmaster.com, etc) and couldn't.



(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================



I think your ascii got scrambled up.



I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals



I'd think that would've been easier than all this hassle.





Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is


Huh. For me I'd think "intuitive" would be forward/right, reverse/left.
(or maybe that's the way the lathe that i had used in the past was wired and
got used to that.)



good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)


-snip-


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?


I don't konw. Jim posted this link...
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...files/wire.jpg When i
say "crappy" I'm not talking about it's electrical validity, just that it's
SMALL and even if i enlarge it the details are blurry. I guess it isn't
important that I be able to read "BU" or "BK" (or "WIRE NUT" or "SMUDGE")
but coming from where i am, knowing nothing about electric wiring, I felt it
would've been helpful to eliminate any ambiguity. (and i dont' think the
drum switch in the drawing is the same as mine so that made it entirely more
complicated, felt i was on a fool's errand trying to desipher that drawing.)




Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?


I do believe it can measure resistance, I don't know the terms, ohms,
resistance, etc. I put it on the capacitor and it did what i read somewhere
it would, pegged at one end of the scale and rapidly drop to near zero.
It's an el-cheapo "Sperry", i stole it from Home Depot (i'm just kidding)
(teasing Harold).




Hmm ... that enamel on the wire is tough stuff, and is pretty
good insulation. And remember that no single winding on this motor has
more than 120V across it. And there is an additional layer of
insulation wrapped around each winding to separate them where they
cross. And that is quite sufficient.

I don't know how good the polyurethane is, but it is at least
better than not replacing the insulation at all.

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).


Huh. I was trying to find which one was the starting winding (i read the
starting winding used thinner wire, trying to find which color wires went to
the thin wires) but now I'm guessing the starting winding is obvious
because it's the one with the capacitor and switch on it.)




O.K. One suggestion. Don't use white -- look for some other
color, because white should be neutral in house wiring (even though
black is ground in electronics wiring).



OK, thanks.




I was afraid that latter was the reason for the lower-case 'i'.
I opt to go with the standard English language writing process, as it is
easier for others to read. (And the capital on the first word of each
sentence helps to distinguish between a period '.' and a comma ',' --
which are a bit difficult to tell apart on my screen at my usual
distance.


oops.





thanks Don dude!

You're welcome.


You mean 'C' and 'B'? That was for the case of the motor
running the wrong direction when you switch it to forward. Just showing
you one of the easy ways to set things up so the motor runs the right
direction when switched to FORWARD.


Thanks. (Yeah, that's what i meant, 'C' and 'B'.)



The wires on (E) and (F) can be interchanged as well, but I
selected that pattern to make the (L2) hot line jumper between (F) and
(D) short, and not have to jump around the switch. There are also ways
to set it up with (A), (B), (C), and (D) to move that hot line to (C)
and (E), and the other hot to (B). But I started out with one hot to
(A), and that sort of pre-selected (D) as the other hot.

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the


Thanks. Yeah, this motor is w/o rubber bushing, my intent is to rigidly
attach the switch to the headstock casting too.


frame/base and the motor itself, so that would leave the motor floating
relative to the lathe frame. In my case, the drum switch is screwed
directly to the headstock casting, so it is well enough grounded.

Enjoy,
DoN.



Thanks again.

b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote...

Hi Don,
Thanks again for your patience.


First question -- just to be sure. You *are* connecting it to
240V aren't you? I'm not sure that the start winding would produce
enough torque to reliably start it at 120V.


I assumed I was. Today I went out, plugged it in, flipped the switch and
the dang thing strarted right up. Did it a couple more times and it
started, then it started NOT starting. I probed the two lines in and one of
them was dead. Probed it at the outlet and one was dead there too. Reset
teh breaker and both were hot. Started the motor and started up, kept
trying and it would start sometimes and wouldn't others. Probed teh wires
again and one was dead again. Reset the breaker, started to realize that it
was the breaker that was tripping. Thought it was internal problem with the
motor. Finally noticed (to my great embarrassment) one of the hot lines
going into the motor was touching the case. i had stripped just a LITTLE
too much insulation off one wire and (to my great embarrassment) one of the
hot wires was just barely touching the case, and of course, tripping the
breaker each time i flipped the drum switch.

That will do it. :-) Was it the case of the switch, or the
motor?

eeek. Guess it's a good thing
i had wired up the ground this time huh?

Well ... if you hadn't -- the motor would have kept starting.
But *you* might have lit up. :-)

So, now it starts but not 100%
reliably. I guess that'll have to be something I'm going to have to live
with. Seems to start right up like maybe 85% of the time, sometimes it
won't start at all, some times it starts jerkingly.

Hmm ... this suggests that one of the contacts in the drum
switch may not be making reliable connection. The contact might be
burned from tripping the breaker through it so many times, or it might
have been loose all the time. Check it out by operating it with the
cover off and watching the switch in low light. Look for sparking were
one of the switch contacts closes. (You're more likely to see the
sparking when it jerks, but maybe also when it starts right up. Look
at the contacts and see whether they can be made to make better contact
by something like cleaning the contacts with a points file (one design
of switch), or squeezing the contacts together a bit (if it is like a
wafer in a rotary switch from electronics.

Sorry to have caused
you to type all the below cringe. Thanks very much for your patience. It
sure has been a learning experience for me. It is fantastic to see this
motor running there clamped to my workbench.

I'll bet.

It was fun to probe the wires in the switch. I was surprised to see, as
you say below, one of the wires was "...close to zero.". Woulda figured it
would either be 120 or ZERO. I assumed that must be juice remaining in the
capacitor huh?

Nope -- The two run windings in series are acting as an
autotransformer, dividing the voltage by two. But it is not a perfect
division, so it is likely to show a slight bit of voltage. That is why
I told you to not expect a perfect zero.

Also -- wires running adjacent to AC-powered lines pick up a bit
of voltage from capacitive coupling -- if they are not connected to
something which has low impedance to ground.

And even neutral typically has a bit of voltage referenced to
ground, because some current is going through it, and its resistance is
not zero, so there will be some voltage there as long as current is
flowing through that neutral -- and that can even be from something else
plugged into the same line.

I was probing, getting either 120 or zero and one time i got
220 and was like "wha' da frig?!", oops, probed the two hot leads. I woulda
thought that woulda resulted in a flash and sparks.

The meter is floating, so no, there should be no problem. Now,
if it were a scope probe, which has a ground clip which is truly
normally connected to the power ground, you could have blown more
breakers. :-)

I think in the past
that woulda been my indicator that i had done something wrong (as in the
wire touching the case). If there was a bright flash and sparks then I knew
i must've done something wrong.

So -- this time you were doing something only slightly wrong. :-)

Wow. So again, a BIG thanks Don. Whew!

Glad to help.

I hope that you get your switch working reliably -- as it
*should* start every time -- unless the centrifugal switch is not
working reliably.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote


Based on the 240final.jpg (which you mentioned later in the
e-mail) I think that it would work -- but you won't find a drum switch
with that switching pattern.


Huh, I was afraid i wouldn't. The link posted by Glenn...
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf has illustrations
with that kind of switching pattern but I guess that must just be an
electrical schematic huh? :-(

Hmm ... no -- I think that it is wiring of a double contactor to
emulate that switching pattern.

(****ed me off in that article the author
says something like "...you're on your own..." (with the "alternate
switching pattern", which of course MY drum switch has!)) (and i suspect
every other drum switch manufactured in the united states also has.)

Well ... the one on my Clausing is pretty much as yours is, but
another which I have (of the sort which is used for the three-phase
motor on a Bridgeport) is closer the kind shown in figures 5 through 8,
and you can even see the cross-over wires if you look carefully. They
are black insulated, and the switch body is a black plastic, so you
don't see them at first glance.

That kind makes more sense to me -- because I don't have to
analyze the wafers of the switch in the other to tell what it is doing.

What you would need is a high-current multi-pole switch.
Looking at your drawing, I would say that a three pole three position
switch would do. Note that you are using nothing of switch terminal


Yeah, when I was trying to create a mental picture of what I needed I
thought "triple pole dual throw" switch, and tried to find it on on-line
(mcmaster.com, etc) and couldn't.

They exist as toggle switches -- and even 4PDT -- but they
aren't high enough current to reliably handle switching the motor live,
only switching direction while it is stopped. And you would really want
a 4PDTCO (Center Off) -- or you could not stop the motor.

I used a rotary switch designed for high currents -- gazillions
of screw terminals.

(C).

So -- let's see:

================================================== ====================
Plug | Switch | Motor
================================================== ====================
Blu
o--------+--------(1)--+WWWWWWWW------------+
(L1)-----+----o------o | |
| o-----+--|--------(4)---WWWWWWWW+----------(3)
| | | Orn |
| | | |
+----o | | Red |
o------o-----|--|--------(2)--+WWWWWWWWW--)|--o/o- +
+----o | |
| | |
| | |
| o-----+ |
(L2)-----+----o------o |
o--------+

(N)-----------(G)------------------------(G)

All three switch elements move at the same time. Center is
STOP, All up is FORWARD, and all down is REVERSE.

"+" s either where two wires join, or bend at right angles

"-|-" is where two wires pass nearby without making contact.

================================================== ====================



I think your ascii got scrambled up.

I think that you were likely looking at it with a proportional
pitch font -- which will scramble *any* drawing done in ASCII with a
fixed-pitch font. And since different proportional pitch fonts are
different widths for different characters, they don't all look the same,
while a fixed pitch font, like Courier, will look the same on all
machines. I see that there are some offsets put in by your quoting, so
I'll fix them above, and you can try switching to Courier (or perhaps
*printing* it with a fixed pitch font)

There -- it is back as it should be for the moment.

I've actually used such a switch (with many more than three
positions, but locked to not rotate beyond those three) with the motor
on my old Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe. At the time, I did not know
where to find real drum switches, but I could easily pick up switches
like these at hamfests. It has a bar handle, so it is not that
different from a drum switch in exterior operation, once I put it in a
metal box to keep chips from falling into all of those screw terminals

I'd think that would've been easier than all this hassle.

Except that it doesn't have the right kind of handle to really
*feel* right.

Essentially, swapping the red and the black wires from the motor
will change what is forward and what is reverse. One of several ways to
do it.

FWIW Normally, the drum switches are set up so FORWARD is moving
the handle to the left, and reverse is moving it to the right. It is


Huh. For me I'd think "intuitive" would be forward/right, reverse/left.
(or maybe that's the way the lathe that i had used in the past was wired and
got used to that.)

What are the labels on your drum switch? I'll bet left is
forward, right is reverse.

good to be consistent with that -- so when you use somebody eles's
machine, you get the expected behavior. And my switch on the
Altas/Craftsman was backwards, so I had to re-train myself. :-)


-snip-


this one is based on Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic. i went back and forth
between Jim's (CRAPPY) schematic

Are you talking about the one from a South Bend manual by any
chance?


I don't konw. Jim posted this link...
http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/...files/wire.jpg When i
say "crappy" I'm not talking about it's electrical validity, just that it's
SMALL and even if i enlarge it the details are blurry. I guess it isn't
important that I be able to read "BU" or "BK" (or "WIRE NUT" or "SMUDGE")
but coming from where i am, knowing nothing about electric wiring, I felt it
would've been helpful to eliminate any ambiguity. (and i dont' think the
drum switch in the drawing is the same as mine so that made it entirely more
complicated, felt i was on a fool's errand trying to desipher that drawing.)

The big problem is that it is showing three mechanically joined,
but electrically independant single pole double throw center off
switches. You can't do that with your drum switch, though I could with
the extra which I have -- after cutting loose the crossover wires and
replacing them in the right pattern.

The circuit which I provided would work with any drum switch
designed for three-phase motor reversing.




Can it measure resistance, or just continuity?


I do believe it can measure resistance, I don't know the terms, ohms,
resistance, etc.

Ohms are the units used to measure resistance.

I put it on the capacitor and it did what i read somewhere
it would, pegged at one end of the scale and rapidly drop to near zero.
It's an el-cheapo "Sperry", i stole it from Home Depot (i'm just kidding)
(teasing Harold).

Sperry should be a pretty good brand, actually.

[ ... ]

I really would not have bothered cutting through the varnish.
Just measuring at the available wires should have been sufficient. Four
loose wires, and one to terminal (1) and one to terminal (4).


Huh. I was trying to find which one was the starting winding (i read the
starting winding used thinner wire, trying to find which color wires went to
the thin wires) but now I'm guessing the starting winding is obvious
because it's the one with the capacitor and switch on it.)

Yes -- that is it.

[ ... ]

Oh yes -- another thing. The 240dons.jpg image brings another
thing to mind. I don't know how the motor and the switch are mounted to
your lathe, but at least one of them needs to be firmly grounded to the
lathe's frame -- or you need to continue the ground wire off to the
frame as well. Some motors are mounted via a rubber bushing between the


Thanks. Yeah, this motor is w/o rubber bushing, my intent is to rigidly
attach the switch to the headstock casting too.

O.K. That should do it.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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