hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110 instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the drum
switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe
i

-snip-


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg





think i might have figured it out.

b.w.

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do
believe
i

-snip-


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg





think i might have figured it out.

b.w.



Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul

"Jean-Paul Roy" wrote in message

Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul




yes, thanks for your interest Jean-Paul. i wanted to post a drawing asking
for advise as to whether or not i wired it correctly. i made a drawing and
uploaded it to...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg

first i wired up the drum switch only just to the 4 wires coming from the
motor, i didn't hook the wires up to the pins inside the motor. got a
"hum/buzz" sound, obviously something wrong. gambled that i needed to hook
the "hot" and "neutral" wires up to their respective pins (white-4
orange-1). i did that and it ran, whew, wow, yay!

my concern now is that because i didn't hook up the red and black wire to
any of the pins i'm doing something wrong and either will burn up the motor
or it won't generate it's rated horsepower.

can anyone confirm that i did the wiring correctly? as far as i can see
none of the wires have any numbers printed on them or little numbered tags,
etc. (i've seen this in other electric motors).

thanks.

(it does run forward and reverse and it *sounds* ok, but i'm no expert at
all.)

b.w.


(oh, trying to hook it up to 220 totally boggled my mind, i gave up on 220
and went with the 110.)
(even after reading the excellent information in the link provided by Glenn
i was still unable to figure out how to wire it up to 220.)

According to William Wixon :

"Jean-Paul Roy" wrote in message

Could you show us your findings?

Jean-Paul




yes, thanks for your interest Jean-Paul. i wanted to post a drawing asking
for advise as to whether or not i wired it correctly. i made a drawing and
uploaded it to...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg

first i wired up the drum switch only just to the 4 wires coming from the
motor, i didn't hook the wires up to the pins inside the motor. got a
"hum/buzz" sound, obviously something wrong.

Yes -- you were getting power only to the start winding -- not
to either of the run windings. If you left it powered up, you would
either burn out the start winding -- or far more likely, you would blow
the innards out of the start capacitor. (If that happens, you will be
able to tell by the smell -- and start capacitors are cheap, at least. :-)

gambled that i needed to hook
the "hot" and "neutral" wires up to their respective pins (white-4
orange-1). i did that and it ran, whew, wow, yay!

my concern now is that because i didn't hook up the red and black wire to
any of the pins i'm doing something wrong and either will burn up the motor
or it won't generate it's rated horsepower.

Those extra pins (2) and (3) are isolated, and are there just
for convenience in connecting a remote switch or for connecting for 240V
operation.

It should give full rated horsepower -- but there are
significant problems here.

can anyone confirm that i did the wiring correctly? as far as i can see
none of the wires have any numbers printed on them or little numbered tags,
etc. (i've seen this in other electric motors).

1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

2) You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4
Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing
grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the
motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or
-- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not
shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn
the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.


I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for
240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it
either.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to
the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall
plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside
the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in
the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint
the screw head green.)

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better
choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently

Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.

thanks.

(it does run forward and reverse and it *sounds* ok, but i'm no expert at
all.)


b.w.


(oh, trying to hook it up to 220 totally boggled my mind, i gave up on 220
and went with the 110.)
(even after reading the excellent information in the link provided by Glenn
i was still unable to figure out how to wire it up to 220.)

Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.

If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send
me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.

But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how
to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.

1) First -- connect the black motor wire to motor terminal(3), and
the Red motor wire to motor terminal (2). There is nothing else
in the motor connected to these pins -- they are there only for
your convenience in such things as this. These two wires are
the start winding -- internally connected to the actual winding,
the capacitor (under the bulge), and the centrifugal switch.
This winding is 120V only -- though there is a trick which makes
it work in the motor wired for 240V.

2) Run wires from these two terminals to switch terminals (A) and
(D).

3) Connect the motor's orange wire to the motor's terminal (1) and
the motor's white wire to the motor's terminal (4). These get
left connected. They complete the connection of the two run
windings in parallel for 120V operation. You don't need to run
them out of the motor case at all.

3) Run the hot power line wire to switch terminals (C) and (E).

4) Run the neutral power line wire to switch terminal (B) and to
motor terminal (4).

Yes -- I said not to switch neutral -- but this is necessary to
reverse the start winding in 120V mode -- and at the same time,
the other side of the start winding is also disconnected from
the hot.

5) Run the switch terminal (F) to motor terminal (3).


And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As
suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and
that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as
I type this one. :-)

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,
which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)"
to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire.
Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter --
orange wire, not a number.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
| (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) |
| |
| (2) |
| |
| (3) |
| |
| (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) |
| |
| (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) |
| |
+----------------------------------------+

"-)|-" is the capacitor

"-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.

"-+WWW-" is a motor winding.

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)

Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.

If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run
windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V
from connections to (1) and (4).

If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are
connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the
motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to
terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still
leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.

However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is
120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can
be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these
windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V
connected to the motor.

I hope that this helps.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

-snip-


1) You are switching the neutral That should not be done in US
practice, as it leaves parts of the motor floating high.

huh. thanks. i'm surprised, well, i don't want to do anything that's not
approved.


2) You have hot and neutral carried through to pins 1 and 4

****. i didn't even notice that teh hot was hot all the way through to the
motor, i was so focused on getting the wires in the right position. that's
part of the reason i decided to bag trying to wire it up to 220 because i'd
have one lead hot all the to the motor there too. just as a fine point and
i don't want to contradict you but i think the neutral is switched, when the
drum switch is in the middle postion it's off. that's what i think anyhow.
dang about the hot though!


Unswitched. This is also not how it should be done. The
unswitched hot is another safety problem, leaving the internals
of the motor hot while it is switched to stop -- and if a widing

yeah, that's part of the reason i figured i didn't want to wire it up to
220, because one lead would be hot all the time. i figured i could just
unplug it, but reading here in the past you guys have said stuff like,
"yeah, but what if you sell it?" or "what if someone else uses it?" so, i
figured i'd better be safe, but i didn't notice the hot was hot all the way
to the motor with this 110 set up too! dang.


grounds to the motor frame inside, it could either render the
motor housing and the lathe hot, thus risking shocking you. Or
-- if you have safety grounds connected (which you have not
shown) it can leave the motor drawing current, and perhaps burn
the (already damaged) windings up -- and possibly start a fire.

i try to be safe. would rather be safe than sorry.



I spent some time posting a text description of how to wire for
240V -- but I don't see it yet, so I can't expect you to have seen it
either.

The first thing that I need to stress here is that you need to
run a safety ground wire from the motor to the case of the switch, to

yeah, was gonna. was so focused on just trying to get the motor to run,
forward adn reverse, was leaving that part out. fully intend(ed) to run a
green ground wire throughout. there's a green screw in the internal wireing
area. thanks.


the frame of the lathe, and on to the safety ground pin in the wall
plug. This wire should be green, and there are probably screws inside
the motor wiring box with their heads painted green, and maybe one in
the drum switch box (though that may be old enough so they didn't paint
the screw head green.)

If you really want to run on 120V (I forget what horsepower
rating this motor is, but a 1-1/2 HP motor run on 120V can sometimes
trip the circuit breaker on starting surges. 240V is by far the better


i preferred wiring it to 220/240, heard motors are more efficient that way,
but the 220 wiring was totally boggling my mind. it's a 3/4 horse motor.


choice for something which you will be starting and stopping frequently

Your wiring shown probably would run -- but it is unsafe.


ok. back to the drawing board.




Check out what I wrote in the other article. I think that
should do it for you.


thanks. hope so. i briefly scanned it, will get back to it in detail after
this.



If you still have questions -- or can't find the article -- send
me an e-mail and I'll dive back into it.

But -- if you *really* want to run at 120V, let me describe how



thanks very much for taking the time to help me with this. i had no idea
where to even start to look for information about this. (figured i was
going to have to talk to an electrician and they always seem to want money.)
:-(



to do it *safely*. I'm going to be assuming that the power is brought
into the drum switch as you have shown in your fwd-rvse.jpg image.

I'm also going to label the switch terminals as follows:

(A) (B)


(C) (D)


(E) (F)

so I can talk about them, and you can sketch them out on paper if you so
desire.


i started to make a Paint drawing of your schematic and realized that i DO
want to (at least TRY) to wire it up to 220. so. i'll have to go read your
other post.


-snipped, for now-




And this should give you reversing operation at 120V. (As
suggested above -- 240V operation would probably be a better choice, and
that would be covered in my other article -- which you may be reading as
I type this one. :-)

Part of the problem here is that the motor's wiring scheme is
tailored to cookbook instructions, and actually hides the information
about what is inside. I wonder whether they have wiring instructions
for each brand of drum switch in addition to what instructions you found,


the drum switch has several different wiring diagrams printed on what
appeaers to be asbestos adhered to the curved sheet metal cover. i wanted
to scan it to show you guys but can't. the harbor freight instructions are
pretty basic, no drum switch instructions.



which were assuming that you either wanted the motor to always run
clockwise or always wanted it to run counter-clockwise -- and had no
need to switch it between those (which is what three-phase motors are
for, after all. :-)

that's what the HF instructions are like. one way or the other.


Let's try to sketch what is actually in that motor -- using "(#)"
to indicate a numbered terminal, and "(C)" to indicate a colored wire.
Note also that I use only numbers 1 though 4, so 'O' is a letter --
orange wire, not a number.

+----------------------------------------+
| |
| (1)+WWWWWWWWW-(W) |
| |
| (2) |
| |
| (3) |
| |
| (4)-WWWWWWWWW+(O) |
| |
| (B)-WWWWWWWWW--)|-o/o-(R) |
| |
+----------------------------------------+

"-)|-" is the capacitor

"-o/o-" is the centrifugal switch.

"-+WWW-" is a motor winding.

The '+' in a motor winding shows the start of the winding, which
is important when connecting them in series or in parallel.
(Part of what is hidden by the design of the motor's terminal
plate.)


i dissassembled the motor... so i could push the wires out of the way,
(when i feed in the four wires from the drum switch the wires that are
already there inside the motor were going to be MAJORLY in the way) and saw
the innards, but i was so focused on moving the wires i didn't really pay
attention to what's wired to what. duh. i didn't even take notice of teh
two non- wired pins that you've mentioned.



Note that terminal (2) and (3) show *nothing* connected to them.
This is exactly how it is. They are there so you don't have to
splice wires together and wrap it all in electrical tape.

So -- when you connect to the (W) and (O) wires, and nothing to
the (1) and (4) terminals, other end of each winding is
connected to nothing, so no current is flowing.


did you check out the link posted by Glenn? they have pretty nice
illustrations there. .pdf file though, takes a long time to download.



If you connect (W) to (4), and (O) to (1), then the two run
windings are connected in parallel, and they both get full 120V
from connections to (1) and (4).

If you connect (W) and (O) together, the two run windings are
connected in series for 240V operation. This is done in the
motor drawings which you posted by connecting both of these to
terminal (3), which is otherwise doing nothing. This still
leaves terminals (1) and (4) for the incoming power.

However -- this center point (3) also has a voltage which is
120V different from either end of the incoming power, so it can
be used to power that 120V start winding. And each of these
windings has only 120V across it, even though you have 240V
connected to the motor.

I hope that this helps.


thanks Don, i think it did. whew, i'm afraid i'm developing a large karmic
debt to you.



Enjoy,
DoN.



b.w.

Here is the best explanation I have found:
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf

--
Glenn Ashmore

I'm building a 45' cutter in strip/composite. Watch my progress (or lack
there of) at: http://www.rutuonline.com
Shameless Commercial Division: http://www.spade-anchor-us.com

"William Wixon" wrote in message
...
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe
i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to
the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110
instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the
drum switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

"Glenn Ashmore" wrote in message
news:l370g.34872$gE.1089@dukeread06...
Here is the best explanation I have found:
http://www.owwm.com/files/PDF/FAQ/ElectricMotors.pdf

--
Glenn Ashmore




Hey Glenn,
big thank you for that link. read the whole thing, still not sure
though if i wired up my motor right. i'm concerned that i didn't hook up
the red wire and the black wire to the pins as specified in the directions.
(previous message w/ link to diagram
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/fwd-rvse.jpg )

b.w.

The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually
connected to inside the motor.
Apart from start and run windings, there's other stuff like capacitors
and overload switches to confuse us.
Unfortunately the terminals aren't always using the same code
letters/numbers to describe them, but they can be a help.
One system I came across uses codes beginning with U, V and Z, while
another uses codes beginning with P and T.
Here's how I successfully wired up a Taiwanese single-phase 240V motor
for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead
of a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7

According to Jordan :
The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually
connected to inside the motor.

Yep -- I think that I have this one decoded. See my other posts
in this thread.

[ ... ]

Here's how I successfully wired up a Taiwanese single-phase 240V motor
for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead
of a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7

For whatever reason, I'm not able to access that site at this
time. But one thing which would worry me would be that your design
probably has the assumption that one side of the 240V is grounded. In
the case of US wiring, this is not true. Both sides are hot -- 120V
away from ground and neutral, so both sides need to be switched.

Aha! the image finally arrived. I see another problem as well.
That motor appears to not be designed to operate at 120V -- only at
240V, so the start winding is also a 240V winding. His is a
dual-voltage motor, with two 120V run windings in series for 240V, and
the center tap used to derive 120V for the start winding.

So -- it is a workable circuit for *your* motor and *your*
country's wiring -- but it won't work here in the USA. In particular,
even if he had a motor with a 240V start winding, the RUN/STOP toggle
switch would need to be DPST to open both hot windings for safety
reasons.

Thanks,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

DoN. Nichols wrote:

Aha! the image finally arrived. I see another problem as well.
That motor appears to not be designed to operate at 120V -- only at
240V, so the start winding is also a 240V winding. His is a
dual-voltage motor, with two 120V run windings in series for 240V, and
the center tap used to derive 120V for the start winding.

So -- it is a workable circuit for *your* motor and *your*
country's wiring -- but it won't work here in the USA. In particular,
even if he had a motor with a 240V start winding, the RUN/STOP toggle
switch would need to be DPST to open both hot windings for safety
reasons.

Thanks DoN
I've left out the earth, which is a third wire.
I thought that some parts of the USA had 240V system like here in Australia.
I thought also the drawing might shed some more light on the problem.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.

Jordan

"Jordan" wrote in message
...
The challenge is to identify what the motor terminals are actually

-snip-

for switchable forward/reverse operation, using toggle switches instead of
a drum switch:
http://tinyurl.com/moep7


thanks for your help Jordan.

b.w.

According to William Wixon :
hey,
i've been trying to figure this one out on my own but can't. i do believe i
need help. i got a reversible motor from harbor freight, mounted it to the
seneca falls star lathe i've been posting about. would like to be able to
run it forward and reverse. have the drum switch from the previous owner.
not sure if i can use it. i made a copy of the wiring diagram in the
motor's manual. the wires illustrated are inside the motor case, have to
reposition them onto the pins inside the motor to get the motor to run CCW
or CW. i'm wondering if i can extend the wires out to the drum switch and
somehow get them to be transposed, black/red - red/black to get the CCW/CW
rotation. i was figuring i'd wire it up to 220 but i guess if it's not
possible to wire it up so it's reversible with 220 i'd wire it 110 instead.

can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

posted illustrations of the 110, 220 wiring and the diagram inside the drum
switch...

http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/220-240.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/110-120.jpg
http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/barrelswitch.jpg

I see that you have later posted that you believe that you have
figured it out.

If not -- it may take a bit more information. There are fairly
easy ways to set it up for 240V with the information which you have
given and the drum switch which you have, but they have the disadvantage
of leaving one side of the motor hot when it is switched off. There is
a better way to do it. I believe that the black and red wires are the
starting winding (120V only) These are the only two wires which change
place from the forward to the reverse setting.

Terminals (1) and (4) are each connected to *one* of the two run
windings inside the motor where you can't see it.

The other ends of those two windings are white and orange. It
doesn't matter which is which for our purposes. But -- I believe that
the white wire is the other end of the winding connected to terminal
(1), and the orange wire is the other end of the winding connected to
terminal (4).

So -- for 240V operation, they are both connected to terminal 3,
which is not connected to anything inside the motor. It is there just
to allow such things as this.

They are actually reversing the pair of wires for the start
winding by disconnecting them both. However, an alternate way to do
this is to leave one end of the start winding connected to terminal (3),
and alternately connect the other to either terminal (1) or terminal (4)
to select motor direction.

Since you want to do the selection at the switch, instead of at
the motor, this is where terminal (2) comes into play. I would suggest
that you connect black to terminal (3) (along with the white and orange),
and connect red to terminal (4).

Now -- you run to the switch. wires from terminals (1), (4), and
(2).
(Also make sure that the motor has a safety ground going to the ground
from the power cord and to the frame of the lathe.)

Now -- the place where we need more information. We need a way
to identify the switch terminals, which you simply drew as:


Forward
o-------o


o-------o


o-------o



Reverse
o o
| |
| |
o o


o-------o


We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

Note that you can't "plug" reverse -- that is switch from FOWARD
to REVERSE or vice versa while the motor is spinning. You have to
switch it to STOP, wait for the motor to almost stop, and then switch it
to the other direction. You can only plug reverse three-phase motors,
or (perhaps) repulsion start motors -- which you don't have at the
moment.

Good Luck,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


-snip-



We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

Note that you can't "plug" reverse -- that is switch from FOWARD
to REVERSE or vice versa while the motor is spinning. You have to
switch it to STOP, wait for the motor to almost stop, and then switch it
to the other direction. You can only plug reverse three-phase motors,
or (perhaps) repulsion start motors -- which you don't have at the
moment.

Good Luck,
DoN.




quick reply (full reply tomorrow) here's what i got from your description.
i have a feeling i didn't get it right. please let me know if this drawing
matches your description.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240.jpg


b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


-snip-



We need to be able to identify those terminals. In the absence of any
markings on your drawings, I'll simply allocate letters to the
terminals, since we already have numbers on the terminal board in the
motor.

So -- using the "Forward" image:

(A)o-------o(B)


(C)o-------o(D)


(E)o-------o(F)

So -- one side of the incoming 240V power connects to terminal (A)

The other side connects to terminal (D) and (F).

Motor terminals (1) and (4) connect to switch terminals (C) and (B)

Motor terminal (2) connects to switch terminal (E).

At this point, you now have a FORWARD/REVERSE switch hooked up
which removes all power from the motor in the STOP position, and which
needs only three wires from the motor to the switch (plus the safety
ground, of course).

[ ... ]

quick reply (full reply tomorrow) here's what i got from your description.
i have a feeling i didn't get it right. please let me know if this drawing
matches your description.


http://www.frontiernet.net/~wwixon/240.jpg

A good thing that you drew it out. I see one problem. I
apparently did not mention that the (RED) motor wire should also go to
terminal (2) instead of to terminal (4).

Other than that -- it looks good.

As drawn, the power from switch terminal (E) goes to an
otherwise empty terminal, and thus does nothing. As shown, it would run
in the same direction no matter which switch position you selected.

Oh -- and it it runs in reverse when the switch is set to
FORWARD and vise versa, swap the wires to pins (B) and (C) on the
switch. (Or the wires from the switch to pins 1 and 4 at the motor. I
think that the motor has tabs which you can push connectors onto, as
well as studs which you can wrap wires around or connect crimped ring
terminals to, so if you used the push-on crimp terminals, it may be
easier to change at the motor.

I would be interested to see what your drawing of my 120V
description looks like as well. It may also have an error from my
forgetting to describe *everything*.

Good Luck,
DoN.
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"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message


A good thing that you drew it out. I see one problem. I
apparently did not mention that the (RED) motor wire should also go to
terminal (2) instead of to terminal (4).

Other than that -- it looks good.

As drawn, the power from switch terminal (E) goes to an
otherwise empty terminal, and thus does nothing. As shown, it would run
in the same direction no matter which switch position you selected.

Oh -- and it it runs in reverse when the switch is set to
FORWARD and vise versa, swap the wires to pins (B) and (C) on the
switch. (Or the wires from the switch to pins 1 and 4 at the motor. I
think that the motor has tabs which you can push connectors onto, as
well as studs which you can wrap wires around or connect crimped ring
terminals to, so if you used the push-on crimp terminals, it may be
easier to change at the motor.

I would be interested to see what your drawing of my 120V
description looks like as well. It may also have an error from my
forgetting to describe *everything*.

Good Luck,
DoN.



i abandoned the 120V drawing, didn't complete it, didn't save it. sorry.

i finally wired up the motor and switch. disappointed to report the darn
thing won't start on it's own, in either direction. it does run if i spin
it up by hand but won't start up on it's own. could it be because i
transposed the black/red wires? dang!!! did i burn something up/out?

b.w.

According to William Wixon :

"DoN. Nichols" wrote in message

[ ... ]

i finally wired up the motor and switch. disappointed to report the darn
thing won't start on it's own, in either direction. it does run if i spin
it up by hand but won't start up on it's own. could it be because i
transposed the black/red wires?

That would only change which direction it starts -- assuming
that one is connected to pin (3) and the other to pin (2) as shown in
the "240dons.jpg" image.

dang!!! did i burn something up/out?

First question -- just to be sure. You *are* connecting it to
240V aren't you? I'm not sure that the start winding would produce
enough torque to reliably start it at 120V.

O.K. Time to do a bit of debugging. Are the motor wires
push-on crimp connectors? If so, disconnect the motor wire from (2) and
push it onto (1). Switch the motor on, and see if it starts. If so,
note which direction, then stop the motor and move that same wire to (4)
and switch the motor on again. If that spins up, check that it spins in
the other direction. If you don't have push-on connectors, you will
have to do a bit more work wiring it up -- or use clip leads for the
tests, if you have those.

If it spins up, then the start winding is now proven to work, so
it is in the wiring at the switch.

If it doesn't, use a meter to measure the power between (3) and
wherever you have the wire connected.

That voltage should measure something near 120VAC. If it
measures the right amount, and the motor still does not start on its
own, then we have to check what has happened inside the motor. It could
be that the centrifugal switch is not making contact, or the wires to
the capacitor have slipped off their terminals under the bulge. (Or --
the capacitor was damaged during earlier tests when it did not spin up.
Pull the bulge and look at the capacitor. If there is gunk inside the
cover, or oozing out the end of the capacitor, it needs to be replaced.

However if it does spin up in the two earlier tests, you now
need to measure the voltage coming from the switch to terminal (2).
Measure that relative to terminal (3).
That should be near 120V when the motor is switched on, and close to
zero when it is switched off.

If you don't get that, it is a problem with the wire from (E) to
(2), or the switch element which connects between (E) and (F) in the
FORWARD and REVERSE positions. Check all of that wiring to see where
you are not getting your power through. And measure the (E) to (F)
switching (with the motor unplugged, of course) to make sure that the
drum switch *does* connect them in both the FORWARD and REVERSE
positions.

One other possibility -- is the switch upside down relative to
the drawing? That is, the terminals which I have called (E) and (F)
should connect both in FORWARD and REVERSE, while if you have exchanged
ends on the switch, you will only get connection in the FORWARD
position, (really terminals (A) and (B).

A pity that we don't have actual labels on the terminals for the
drum switch, instead of the ones which I dreamed up to be able to talk
about this.

So -- do your tests and let me know what you find.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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In article , William Wixon says...
can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

Do it this way. You can use the standard 3 pole, center off drum
switch to do it:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/wire.jpg

Jim


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According to jim rozen :
In article , William Wixon says...
can anyone help/tell me how to do it?

Do it this way. You can use the standard 3 pole, center off drum
switch to do it:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2001_retired_files/wire.jpg

Unfortunately -- the design of his motor and terminal board hide
the details of the winding from him -- and the numbers assigned on that
terminal board don't match the ones shown on the schematic which you
pointed to.

Also -- the drawing of the switch which he has does not make it
easy for a non electronics or electrician type to map into the switch in
the schematic.

Enjoy,
DoN.

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Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
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--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

In article , DoN. Nichols says...

Unfortunately -- the design of his motor and terminal board hide
the details of the winding from him -- and the numbers assigned on that
terminal board don't match the ones shown on the schematic which you
pointed to.

Correct. In most motors, if you want to reverse that way (using
the CT of the run windings) you need to do some digging.

Unless he really understands what's going on in there - that is,
can look at the wires inside, and map them in his mind to the
conceptual diagram on paper - he's going to have a tough time
achieving his goal.

Most folks who try to wire a drum switch up to a single phase
motor give up in frustration after a while, because they can't
just go red-to-red, black-to-black, and white-to-white the way
electricans 'wire' things. You can't rely on wire numbers,
colors, terminal board markings, etc when doing this.

Rules for this stuff a

1) make a diagram.

2) wire according to that diagram.

3) draw the best possible picture of it after you are done,
using the nomenclature for individual terminals and wires
that you yourself applied to project.

The diagram I gave him won't be a cure-all. The numbers won't
match his project. But if he can understand what's going
on in the diagram (the three pole, center off switch is drawn
quite clearly, that's what a drum switch looks like on paper)
then he has a chance of making his *own* diagram that suits
his purposes. Topologically, his and mine will be nearly
identical - possibly with the exception of the thermal cutout
switch. That adds one extra wire between drum switch and
motor. OTherwise you can do it with six.

Jim


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please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , DoN. Nichols says...

Correct. In most motors, if you want to reverse that way (using
the CT of the run windings) you need to do some digging.

-snip-

switch. That adds one extra wire between drum switch and
motor. OTherwise you can do it with six.

Jim




oh, Jim, i was just teasing about the drawing in the link you posted.
thanks for taking the time to help me.

b.w.