In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Nice setup, Jim. Couldn't help but notice all HSS used.

That was done for my small pratt & whitney bench lathe,
it's just an old hunk of HRS, complete with scale on most
of it.

I was working late one night at brookhaven labs, and they
had a nice shop. It was faced on the top and bottom in
a four jaw chuck, and then I bolted it down to the hardinge
horizontal they had there, and cut the slots. Just for
fun I scraped the top and bottom sides.

There is one brazed carbide bit actually:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2000_retired_files/Tp1.jpg

because I had this machine here at work for a while, tucked
away in one of the mechanical HVAC rooms, and had to turn
some abrasive stuff. That's about the time I took the photo,
I think.

It is usually populated with one cutoff tool, one turning tool,
one brass tool, and one boring tool. But things swap in and
out pretty often when I have that machine set up. Right now
it's coated in LPS-3 and crated in my basement, for the next
time I need a tiny lathe that can do a lot.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Sunworshiper" wrote in message
...
snip---

Experience answer is ok with me , but I was hoping you were going to
come back with something about the under magnification grains, how
they break, and the "glue" holding the wheels together.

While I understand wheels enough to know which one may be better suited to a
particular job, I would not be a candidate for explaining the complexities
of wheel construction theory. I'd gladly leave that to one that is properly
trained and educated.

Maybe, I'm
just missing it or think too much. Tell more , I dressed wheels a
couple of times a day and just don't see how a diamond dressed wheel
can get any better,

I agree, but not for offhand grinding. Don't confuse the two. Diamond
dressing is almost mandatory on precision grinders, especially in today's
environment where demands of superior finishes and precision are required.

except the loading problem, and trying to
visualize it being too smooth. When and after I use to grind aircraft
and huge Cat cranks I was thinking how the coolant oil and the steel
doesn't load up the wheel fast... What are you suppose to think about
when machining. )

Wheel loading is avoided by the proper selection of wheel abrasive grain
size, friability of the wheel, and the degree of openness of the bond,
generally a vitrified wheel for crank grinding.

After the 60 other different things your not to
forget. I see now after D just posted pic.s from you how I got lost?
I don't have a cut off tool holder and never used one , but I've made
them from 1/2" HSS cause I was desperate.

Nor do I. I have always hand ground parting tools. I can't even mount a
commercial holding tool on my lathe due to the tool block I choose to run.
It won't accommodate one. I can readily hand grind parting tools that are
adequate for the work I do and see no reason to do anything else.

I don't enjoy the thought
of cutting work right off the lathe and catching it , ya'll say its
easy, but I need to see it done once to feel comfortable about doing
it myself. That or have a real need for going in 2".

I've parted 2" stock with no trouble, including stainless steel. It
requires considerable attention, plenty of lubrication and a little luck.
303 stainless is much easier. One of the toughest to part is actually mild
steel, due to it's eagerness to tear, jamming the tool and breaking it.
Regardless of what's being parted, it's no big deal when it comes off the
machine, you just have to make sure it doesn't end up in the jaws when it
finally lets go. If you're parting a long item, you can actually hold it
as it gets near coming off and lightly push it towards the rear of the lathe
so it won't bind. The degree of flexibility at that point is so great that
it moves easily. At that point it hasn't enough strength to do any damage,
it just comes off in your hand when it's ready.

See, I was
thinking and still missed I guess that you were talking about cutting
the HSS lengthways kinda , but you talking about parting tools made
under 1/2 deep /downward wise when in use.

Envision a 1/2" square tool that has a narrow blade (the parting tool
portion) that is an inch long along its length. The limiting factor with
the hand ground tools is height. Commercial tools often have much more
strength vertically than these tools, therefore are much harder to break.
That is the only benefit I can see to using them, aside from the savings of
time in grinding them.

I wonder if the wheel was loaded on this one crank I was doing that
the machine that took a number of steps to the other end started
chattering. I'm sure you know what a headache chatter means when your
in the middle of something you can't reset. They didn't have a dresser
that would do it under the work you have on the machine and can't
move.

Chatter has many sources. It's not always evident if a wheel is loaded or
dull. The only solution, in either case, is to dress the wheel. If the
wheel is glazing prematurely, a softer wheel may be in order.

I use to try to calculate in my head where best to stand and
cringe when pushing the start button. 11.25 degrees or 22.5 , 30 + was
out of the question , you have to be right there close and if it let
go I'm with ya on the funeral part. All for just above minimum wage.

What a wise person does is hit the button and get the hell away from the
wheel as far as possible. There is no need to stand in front of a wheel
when starting it up. On a crank grinder, the wheel should spool up slow
enough to allow you time to retreat before it's running at top speed. If
nothing else, I'd step to the tailstock side of the grinding head. A wheel
is much less likely to deflect that direction than towards the headstock if
for no other reason, the mass of the wheel head. My policy is to start a
wheel and give it a minute of time to see if it's going to hold.

No one told me how to sharpen or make metal cutting tools , I just
read and mathematical pictures of how the metal fractures and did it.
I still am stumped on how the bit will load/pile up where I can't see
the edge (even closely examined with it off the machine) and its
cutting just fine. Maybe that isn't suppose to happen , but on some
material I can't seem to stop it.

That's where learning about chip breakers and how to grind them gets
important. What you do is provide a better rake angle for the chip, and a
reason for it to do something it isn't already doing. It's called chip
flow. If you're getting tip welding, it's usually a function of a poor
combination of speeds and feeds and related rake angles. It can be
avoided. There's no substitute for experience in this situation. Once you
see it done and understand what to do about it, it's much easier. One
of the big problems with tip welding is in grinding unreasonable chip
breakers, where the chip can't flow. I've seen pretty much any material
perform poorly under that condition. Once the chip starts stacking up, it's
all over. The only exception in metals might be magnesium and free machining
copper alloys. . It's hard to get them to not cut well.

My mom made me go to school for architecture and I took as many math
and mechanical engineering classes as I could get away with. It was
way more interesting and I had planed to live in Florida and continue
flight lessons to be a corp. pilot. I blindly bought a lathe and had
no real idea how to use it 20 yrs. after school and grinding cranks. I
just got sick of paying machinist to make me stuff. I can't even
recall how I know what is happening , but just have a nak at it. I
really get lost on alot of posts cause I don't know the jargon of
shoulder here and what ever there in the printed work , but pictures
are clear as day. Oh, send me pictures of the grinder you built, even
though I'm not sure if the small upgrade will let me see pictures from
email. I'll just keep it if I can't open it.

I don't have any pictures at the moment, but I'll try to take them today
some time and get them to you via email. I'll send them as an attachment.
Feel free to query me if you have any questions.

I finally got to see
the drawings of the holder to grind blanks that wouldn't open from the
drop box. BTW my planer would make those easy. What would be cool is
cast iron blanks to bolt it down on the surface grinder and cut
different angles with the planer to accept the blanks.

Yep, that's the only negative about the design. The idea is good, but you
often have need for different angles. That's plenty easy to overcome by
having a few holders with the desired angles. Very nice idea, that one.

Harold

In article ,
Harold Vordos wrote:

"Marty Escarcega" wrote in message
. ..
Anyone use abrasive belt grinders to sharpen HSS tool bits? Supposed to be
easier and cooler on the steel?

Under normal circumstances I do not endorse the idea. The speed gained is
not worth the precision lost, but it's pretty good for roughing. If you
have the typical belt sander, you'll notice that the belt does not run tight
against the back stop.

What I've noticed on mine is that the belt runs pretty much tight except
when the joint comes through. Although the belt manufacturer has tried
to make that joint as unobtrusive as possible, it still makes a
noticeable bump as it hits whatever is being ground, because it is
slightly thicker than the rest of the belt.

Even when they do, they still don't cut with the
desirable precision of a wheel. The problem is you get miniscule edge
rounding from the belt. If you grind with a single face, it is often
noticeable when you stone your tool. In a sense, you start out with a
somewhat worn tool. There's no substitute for a final grind on a wheel.

The effect I saw was much lessened if one ground the item upside down --
that is, with the cutting edge of the tool being the last thing the belt
touched as it went past, rather than the first thing.

But this is based on very limited experience, and not much need for
precision.


--
Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

"Norman Yarvin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Harold Vordos wrote:

"Marty Escarcega" wrote in message
. ..
Anyone use abrasive belt grinders to sharpen HSS tool bits? Supposed to
be
easier and cooler on the steel?

Under normal circumstances I do not endorse the idea. The speed gained
is
not worth the precision lost, but it's pretty good for roughing. If you
have the typical belt sander, you'll notice that the belt does not run
tight
against the back stop.

What I've noticed on mine is that the belt runs pretty much tight except
when the joint comes through. Although the belt manufacturer has tried
to make that joint as unobtrusive as possible, it still makes a
noticeable bump as it hits whatever is being ground, because it is
slightly thicker than the rest of the belt.

Even when they do, they still don't cut with the
desirable precision of a wheel. The problem is you get miniscule edge
rounding from the belt. If you grind with a single face, it is often
noticeable when you stone your tool. In a sense, you start out with a
somewhat worn tool. There's no substitute for a final grind on a wheel.

The effect I saw was much lessened if one ground the item upside down --
that is, with the cutting edge of the tool being the last thing the belt
touched as it went past, rather than the first thing.

But this is based on very limited experience, and not much need for
precision.


--
Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net

Yep, I've done that, too. Works pretty well until you're trying to hold a
tight tolerance grind. I don't like working on a tool that I can't see, so
I rarely grind that way. It does minimize the rounding effect, though.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Nice setup, Jim. Couldn't help but notice all HSS used.

That was done for my small pratt & whitney bench lathe,
it's just an old hunk of HRS, complete with scale on most
of it.

I was working late one night at brookhaven labs, and they
had a nice shop. It was faced on the top and bottom in
a four jaw chuck, and then I bolted it down to the hardinge
horizontal they had there, and cut the slots. Just for
fun I scraped the top and bottom sides.

There is one brazed carbide bit actually:

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2000_retired_files/Tp1.jpg

because I had this machine here at work for a while, tucked
away in one of the mechanical HVAC rooms, and had to turn
some abrasive stuff. That's about the time I took the photo,
I think.

It is usually populated with one cutoff tool, one turning tool,
one brass tool, and one boring tool. But things swap in and
out pretty often when I have that machine set up. Right now
it's coated in LPS-3 and crated in my basement, for the next
time I need a tiny lathe that can do a lot.

Jim

Must say that's one cute little bugger, Jim. Yep, I see the brazed carbide.
I use them exactly that way, a mix of inserts, brazed and HSS. I let the
job dictate. I've done a lot of finish machining with brazed turning
tools. Especially when the quantity of parts isn't real large, they often
work every bit as well in inserts, and can generally be altered to fit the
occasion.

One of the places I favor brazed carbide is when turning very small
diameters that are supported by a center. You can grind off the back side
of the tool so it doesn't interfere with the center. I've even been known
to hand grind a chip breaker in brazed tools. Anything that makes the job
run better as far as I'm concerned.

Got any pics of the whole lathe? Love to see one. If so, and you don't
mind, you can send it directly to me if you wish.

Harold

Hello group. My name is RJ, and I still use a lantern toolpost and
hand-ground tool bits. I have taken the 12 step approach, but I still need a
sponsor.



"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Not thin disks. Narrow tools, just like a commercial parting tool,
but
made from various sizes of HSS tool steel. I grind them from 3/8" and
1/2"
square mostly. 1/4" X 1/2" saves a lot of grinding time but limits
your
ability to place the tool where you might like it in your tool block.
I
prefer the square ones. When you grind the tools, they are usually
right
handed, so they cut near the chuck.

An example is shown in the photo below, it's the one coming
right out at the viewer. Kinda looks tilted off to one side
but it really is straight out. The side relief makes it
look a bit twisted.

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2000_retired_files/Tp3.jpg

Jim


Very nice, Jim.
One comment: I always grind my tools RH so I'm not restricted when near
the chuck. Not usually important for grooving tools, but almost mandatory
for parting.

For those that aren't grinding their own tools, you can grind almost
anything that suits your fancy if you learn to grind proper toolbits.
Especially for guys like us, it makes absolutely no sense to load up on
insert form tooling when they can be made so easily. Unless you find
yourself using a large number of a particular configuration, making your
own
is far better, both as a learning tool and for your wallet. It leaves the
money otherwise spent for those things that you can't make yourself. I
heartily endorse the use of HSS toolbits. They've served me very well
for
all of my machining career.

Harold

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Hello group. My name is RJ, and I still use a lantern toolpost and
hand-ground tool bits. I have taken the 12 step approach, but I still need
a
sponsor.


You serious, RJ? I hate those damned things. Problem is you can't mark
dials so you can make time when doing something repetitive. My personal
preference is a square turret for an engine lathe, although I've also used
the KDK or Aloris type posts. The square model I like used to be built by
OK Rubber Welders (really!). The have 3 degree indexing with detents on 15
degree intervals. Very fast and precise to use, and you don't have to
pick up and set down any holders. They do limit your setup in some
instances because you have only four sides.

Harold

There's a dressing stick on the base of my pedestal grinder at work. It's
been in use at least 15 years, along with a star dresser.

RJ


-- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me, instead of you."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

bearing. They run very smooth, but cut hot as hell. A dressing
stick
lets you meet in the middle. Smooth wheel, but rough enough to cut
well.

I guess I missed it. You have mentioned dressing sticks before. Could
you post a picture of one to the dropbox or direct me to a catalog? I'd
like to see what I should be looking for.

Ted

Hey Ted,

The dressing stick I have in my possession is likely all of 35 years old,
so
it no longer resembles what they look like when new. That alone should
tell you what a bargain these things are. I've used it for years on end
and still have about half of it.

Because I have my shop out of commission, a result of moving from Utah to
Washington, I have not kept current with catalogs. I've done almost no
buying of anything, and likely won't until I have the house finished. I
last catalog I received from MSC is the 95/96 edition, so I'll have to
direct you to that one. On page 877 there is a picture of an imported
stick
which they call an Abrasive Dresser Stick. These sticks are generally 1"
square and 6" long. They are made of what appears to be coarse silicon
carbide crystals, perhaps something around 24 grit, maybe even coarser.
For dressing aluminum oxide wheels for a pedestal grinder in the machine
shop there is no better system, and for reasons I've already outlined.
I do not have that opinion for a weld shop, where the star type dresser is
superior. You'll find other dressing sticks available, one of which is a
solid boron carbide stick, 1/4" X 1/2" X 3". I do not recommend them
for
the home shop because they have the same effect as a diamond, only they
dull
the wheel even more. They are generally used by precision grinders for
forming wheels and do not lend themselves well to actually sharpening
them.
I've used them in any way possible and prefer to not use them at all
except
for forming. They are not as aggressive as the other dressing stick type.

To find dressing sticks, at least in MSC's catalog, look in the index
under
abrasives, then look for finishing sticks and stones. They will be
included
there, but you'll have to look for them by going to the pages mentioned.

Harold

Harold, just curious. When you are grinding a standard RH tool bit for
general turning, do you flat grind the faces, or hollow grind? I generally
hollow grind my tool bits, also my lawn mower blades. Makes mower blades cut
like a banshee.

RJ



--
"You're just jealous because the voices are talking to me, instead of you."


"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Sunworshiper" wrote in message
...
snip---

Experience answer is ok with me , but I was hoping you were going to
come back with something about the under magnification grains, how
they break, and the "glue" holding the wheels together.

While I understand wheels enough to know which one may be better suited to
a
particular job, I would not be a candidate for explaining the complexities
of wheel construction theory. I'd gladly leave that to one that is
properly
trained and educated.

Maybe, I'm
just missing it or think too much. Tell more , I dressed wheels a
couple of times a day and just don't see how a diamond dressed wheel
can get any better,

I agree, but not for offhand grinding. Don't confuse the two. Diamond
dressing is almost mandatory on precision grinders, especially in today's
environment where demands of superior finishes and precision are required.

except the loading problem, and trying to
visualize it being too smooth. When and after I use to grind aircraft
and huge Cat cranks I was thinking how the coolant oil and the steel
doesn't load up the wheel fast... What are you suppose to think about
when machining. )

Wheel loading is avoided by the proper selection of wheel abrasive grain
size, friability of the wheel, and the degree of openness of the bond,
generally a vitrified wheel for crank grinding.

After the 60 other different things your not to
forget. I see now after D just posted pic.s from you how I got lost?
I don't have a cut off tool holder and never used one , but I've made
them from 1/2" HSS cause I was desperate.

Nor do I. I have always hand ground parting tools. I can't even mount a
commercial holding tool on my lathe due to the tool block I choose to run.
It won't accommodate one. I can readily hand grind parting tools that are
adequate for the work I do and see no reason to do anything else.

I don't enjoy the thought
of cutting work right off the lathe and catching it , ya'll say its
easy, but I need to see it done once to feel comfortable about doing
it myself. That or have a real need for going in 2".

I've parted 2" stock with no trouble, including stainless steel. It
requires considerable attention, plenty of lubrication and a little luck.
303 stainless is much easier. One of the toughest to part is actually
mild
steel, due to it's eagerness to tear, jamming the tool and breaking it.
Regardless of what's being parted, it's no big deal when it comes off the
machine, you just have to make sure it doesn't end up in the jaws when it
finally lets go. If you're parting a long item, you can actually hold
it
as it gets near coming off and lightly push it towards the rear of the
lathe
so it won't bind. The degree of flexibility at that point is so great
that
it moves easily. At that point it hasn't enough strength to do any
damage,
it just comes off in your hand when it's ready.

See, I was
thinking and still missed I guess that you were talking about cutting
the HSS lengthways kinda , but you talking about parting tools made
under 1/2 deep /downward wise when in use.

Envision a 1/2" square tool that has a narrow blade (the parting tool
portion) that is an inch long along its length. The limiting factor with
the hand ground tools is height. Commercial tools often have much more
strength vertically than these tools, therefore are much harder to break.
That is the only benefit I can see to using them, aside from the savings
of
time in grinding them.

I wonder if the wheel was loaded on this one crank I was doing that
the machine that took a number of steps to the other end started
chattering. I'm sure you know what a headache chatter means when your
in the middle of something you can't reset. They didn't have a dresser
that would do it under the work you have on the machine and can't
move.

Chatter has many sources. It's not always evident if a wheel is loaded or
dull. The only solution, in either case, is to dress the wheel. If the
wheel is glazing prematurely, a softer wheel may be in order.

I use to try to calculate in my head where best to stand and
cringe when pushing the start button. 11.25 degrees or 22.5 , 30 + was
out of the question , you have to be right there close and if it let
go I'm with ya on the funeral part. All for just above minimum wage.

What a wise person does is hit the button and get the hell away from the
wheel as far as possible. There is no need to stand in front of a wheel
when starting it up. On a crank grinder, the wheel should spool up slow
enough to allow you time to retreat before it's running at top speed. If
nothing else, I'd step to the tailstock side of the grinding head. A
wheel
is much less likely to deflect that direction than towards the headstock
if
for no other reason, the mass of the wheel head. My policy is to start a
wheel and give it a minute of time to see if it's going to hold.

No one told me how to sharpen or make metal cutting tools , I just
read and mathematical pictures of how the metal fractures and did it.
I still am stumped on how the bit will load/pile up where I can't see
the edge (even closely examined with it off the machine) and its
cutting just fine. Maybe that isn't suppose to happen , but on some
material I can't seem to stop it.

That's where learning about chip breakers and how to grind them gets
important. What you do is provide a better rake angle for the chip, and
a
reason for it to do something it isn't already doing. It's called chip
flow. If you're getting tip welding, it's usually a function of a poor
combination of speeds and feeds and related rake angles. It can be
avoided. There's no substitute for experience in this situation. Once
you
see it done and understand what to do about it, it's much easier. One
of the big problems with tip welding is in grinding unreasonable chip
breakers, where the chip can't flow. I've seen pretty much any material
perform poorly under that condition. Once the chip starts stacking up,
it's
all over. The only exception in metals might be magnesium and free
machining
copper alloys. . It's hard to get them to not cut well.

My mom made me go to school for architecture and I took as many math
and mechanical engineering classes as I could get away with. It was
way more interesting and I had planed to live in Florida and continue
flight lessons to be a corp. pilot. I blindly bought a lathe and had
no real idea how to use it 20 yrs. after school and grinding cranks. I
just got sick of paying machinist to make me stuff. I can't even
recall how I know what is happening , but just have a nak at it. I
really get lost on alot of posts cause I don't know the jargon of
shoulder here and what ever there in the printed work , but pictures
are clear as day. Oh, send me pictures of the grinder you built, even
though I'm not sure if the small upgrade will let me see pictures from
email. I'll just keep it if I can't open it.

I don't have any pictures at the moment, but I'll try to take them today
some time and get them to you via email. I'll send them as an attachment.
Feel free to query me if you have any questions.

I finally got to see
the drawings of the holder to grind blanks that wouldn't open from the
drop box. BTW my planer would make those easy. What would be cool is
cast iron blanks to bolt it down on the surface grinder and cut
different angles with the planer to accept the blanks.

Yep, that's the only negative about the design. The idea is good, but you
often have need for different angles. That's plenty easy to overcome by
having a few holders with the desired angles. Very nice idea, that one.

Harold

In article , Backlash says...

Hello group. My name is RJ, and I still use a lantern toolpost and
hand-ground tool bits. I have taken the 12 step approach, but I still need a
sponsor.

One day at a time as they say. You won't find anyone grousing
about hand ground HSS tools here. The lantern toolpost is
a problem from a rigidity standpoint, but if you take the
step to toss out the tool holder, if you are using one,
and mount the largest size HSS blank that will fit, right
in the lantern toolpost, you will find it not too bad.

Shim up to the correct height with a few scraps of square
CRS or other tool bits. I worked this way for years till
I saw what I was missing.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

"Backlash" wrote in message
...
Harold, just curious. When you are grinding a standard RH tool bit for
general turning, do you flat grind the faces, or hollow grind? I generally
hollow grind my tool bits, also my lawn mower blades. Makes mower blades
cut
like a banshee.

RJ

Hey RJ,

While I'm very capable of doing so, I rarely use the side of the wheel. Yes,
my tools are hollow ground, including long parting tools with one
continuous face on each side. In many instances I don't machine without a
chip breaker, so the portion that parallels the cutting edge is often formed
by the side of the wheel, so it is, for all practical purposes, not hollow
ground. When grinding chip breakers, I rely on the corner radius of my
wheel for proper curvature in the chip breaker for chip flow. It's not
uncommon for me to dress a radius on the right side of the wheel, but not a
very large one. That makes it easier to get a smooth radius instead of one
filled with steps and notches.

It is because of my chip breaker grinding that I am so adamant about not
using a tool rest. You're pretty much handicapped when you do. From my
description above you can see that you have to have the ability to turn your
tool parallel with the wheel and be free to move it up and down. Tool rest
won't let you do that.

Harold

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 12:54:18 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:

To find dressing sticks, at least in MSC's catalog, look in the index under
abrasives, then look for finishing sticks and stones. They will be included
there, but you'll have to look for them by going to the pages mentioned.

Harold

https://www.travers.com/htdocs/pdf/0779cat.pdf

gunner
The two highest achievements of the human mind are the twin concepts of "loyalty" and "duty."
Whenever these twin concepts fall into disrepute -- get out of there fast! You may possibly
save yourself, but it is too late to save that society. It is doomed. " Lazarus Long

Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

planning to make a shell mill from a ball race casing 'real soon

Chuckle!

Not much gets wasted in your shop, eh David?

absolutely nothing....
never
total packrat, and a good thing too

example
I was tidying the office yesterday, to make psace for configuring 4
new computers
*threw away* some light cardboard

dug it out of the trash this morning to make a spacer for the floppy
eject button

Thanks for the tour of your work. Very nicely done. I think you

thanks

one of the boring bars I didn't display is the square bar from a door
handle mechanism. very nice steel to work, and just right for a
short bar for about 2" penetration

and Ted Edwards may just be the leading champs of creativity in
the shop. Ted is very big on making tools and does an
outstanding job of making use of materials most of us ignore.

apart from enjoying it, I HAVE to due to finanial constraints. now
and then it is nice to just go and buy something I need.....

example. I found on the web an old article on building apower
hacksaw from angle iron and Chevy conrods. I'll build this thing
this year, replacing the conrods (wher ewill I get 8 inch conrods
now?) with 'something'. I have the motor and a variable speed
gearbox for it already. just gotta get the angle iron sizes sorted
out as we have metric here and the article is imperial

I'm convinced both of you are fearless!

well, not entirely fearless! I do put a lot of thought into some
things before doing them. yet, other things I just plunge in and get
on with it. for those ones, version 2 is usually more effective (-:

swarf, steam and wind

--
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Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

[sitting at grinder]

I thought a bit about that after I posted and soon realized that
if you are sitting at the right height relative to the grinder,
that could be a great way to sharpen tools. You can get right
down cozy with the wheel without leaning over when it's done

yup. I just need to rig a task light for it...

right. Whether standing or sitting, if you're not comfortable,
you're highly unlikely to grind very good tools. Seems all

true

you'd have on your mind is getting it done so you could find
comfort.

quite so. having had the back op back in 1987 I've "been there and
done that"
I'm amazed at people who complain here that grinding tools takes too
long. And now it's just struck me that their grinding posistion is
not comfortable! A good point you've made.

To me, 5 or 10 minutes grinding a tool is a pleasant break from
standing at the lathe, and a nicely ground tool is worth a pat on the
back and a fuzzy feel good feeling that can really tone down the
other things you've just fluffed (-:

swarf, steam and wind

--
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Sunworshiper scribed in
:

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 18:46:33 GMT, Ted Edwards
wrote:

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

bearing. They run very smooth, but cut hot as hell. A

I agree with this. I lived for years without any dressing tool, and
finally got fed up with out of round wheels and purchased a diamond
dresser. VERY quick to straighten out a wheel. but, the wheel is
definitely TOO smooth after that (maybe I'm just doing it too well :-
)

years back, previous girlfriends father had a star wheel dresser and
that too dressed a wheel nicely, but the wheels CUT FAST.

I see that the local hardware has Ryobi bench grinders that come with
a star dresser. I've never seen them on sale locally, so maybe I
need a new grinder (-:

dressing stick lets you meet in the middle. Smooth wheel, but
rough enough to cut well.

I guess I missed it. You have mentioned dressing sticks before.
Could you post a picture of one to the dropbox or direct me to a
catalog? I'd like to see what I should be looking for.

yes, I'd like to know what they are too....
what could substitute for one? 40 grit sandpaper?

swarf, steam and wind

--
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Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

wheel in the process. Use it sparingly, you don't want to destroy
the diamond wheel, which is especially true if you run a resinoid
wheel. That's the proper choice of wheel matrix type for use on
cutters.

uh oh. I have some diamond wheels that are solid steel with a
diamond coating that seems to be embedded directly into the steel.
I'm planning to use one in the grinding jig I have in my head...
I know these wheels are from a CNC leather cutting machine and are
part of the automatic sharpening device and spin fast. the
autosharpen hits the cutter about every meter of cut length.
so they were sharpening HSS so I figured they'd be good for a tool
sharpener?

swarf, steam and wind

--
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DejaVU wrote:
jim rozen scribed in
:


The *real* problem with star dressers (or nearly any kind
for that matter) is that there's a huge amount of abrasive
debris flung off. A real shop can afford to have a
grinder room to keep this apart from the other machines,
a home shop seldom has that luxury. My bench grinder is
tucked as far away from my other machines as possible.


I plan to fit a vacuum hose the the rear of the wheel guard when I
finally decide where to mount my grinder, to solve this very issue of
dust everywhere. my shop is much too small to think that the dust
does not go near the lathe, but at least with the grinder just about
on the floor as it is at the moment, the dust has to WORK to get UP
onto the lathe.

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth
Hi David
Yep fitted a vac to the rear of my grinder and promptly melted the
plastic connetor . Vac works fine but if I started out with metal
fittings I would only have had to build it once .
Ken Cutt

Ted Edwards wrote:
Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:


bearing. They run very smooth, but cut hot as hell. A dressing stick
lets you meet in the middle. Smooth wheel, but rough enough to cut well.


I guess I missed it. You have mentioned dressing sticks before. Could
you post a picture of one to the dropbox or direct me to a catalog? I'd
like to see what I should be looking for.

Ted

Hi Ted
I use a diamond , but with what I have read now I am tempted to get a
stick next time I am in Kelowna
Princess Auto
Page 179 in Fall and Winter catalog
part number 3410061
and all of $6.99
For that price hard not to at least try one and find out the difference
.. Hope you had a good winter if indeed you even got one , ha ha .
Ken Cutt

"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

wheel in the process. Use it sparingly, you don't want to destroy
the diamond wheel, which is especially true if you run a resinoid
wheel. That's the proper choice of wheel matrix type for use on
cutters.

uh oh. I have some diamond wheels that are solid steel with a
diamond coating that seems to be embedded directly into the steel.
I'm planning to use one in the grinding jig I have in my head...
I know these wheels are from a CNC leather cutting machine and are
part of the automatic sharpening device and spin fast. the
autosharpen hits the cutter about every meter of cut length.
so they were sharpening HSS so I figured they'd be good for a tool
sharpener?

Interesting. The use of diamond on steel is not generally acceptable.
Diamond in contact with hot steel does the same thing that silicon carbide
does, it dissolves into the steel. When that happens the diamond has very
short life, gets dull quite fast.

Diamonds, when properly applied, do not abrade grinding wheels, they
actually cut them much like a turning tool on a lathe, or side cutter on a
mill. The only difference is that they are almost, without fail, cutting
with negative rake. Most holding fixtures for diamonds hold the diamond
at an angle so all you have to do is rotate the diamond in the holder to
expose what to a grinding wheel is a sharp edge. Once a diamond gets
dull, while it will still dress a wheel, it no longer properly seasons the
wheel so it will cut well. In effect, it dulls the grain instead of cutting
it.. Don't lose sight of the fact that grinding wheels actually cut, they
do not abrade. Wheels lose the ability to cut well by improper dressing.

I'd be pleased to take a look at the wheel you have and give you my opinion
if you're interested. Feel free to email me a pic if you desire. I'm not
sure I will be of service, but I'm willing to try. Be advised that the
type of wheel used for carbide sharpening of brazed carbide tools is *not* a
typical type 1 wheel. Wheels for sharpening lathe tools are the type with
the grinding face on the side, usually with a diamond face that is about
3/4" broad and flat. Other wheels do not work well for hand sharpening
carbide.

My mention of wheel types for cutters in my original post was intended as
information for grinding carbide exclusively. It is very unusual to find
diamond wheels used on high speed grinders intended for steel for the reason
already mentioned above. Yes, I know that some of the drill pointers use
a diamond wheel. They shouldn't. Not for HSS or carbon steel drills,
anyway. The lone exception is if the wheel runs so slow that it doesn't
generate red heat. Low speed diamond lapping wheels are used for steel
with success.

The diamond wheels in your possession may have a very shallow deposit of
diamond. That may or many not be true, however. There are wheels made with
metallic matrix, too, identical to wheels with resinoid matrix. In this
case they would also have a steel body instead of aluminum, commonly found
with resinoid bonded wheels. That would be pretty evident by a color
differential where the diamond ends, plus the difference in wheel thickness.
Generally the diamond portion is wider than the base material that
constitutes the wheel body. High quality diamond wheels are available with
considerable depth of diamond and diamond concentration. High quality
wheels will have as much as 1/8" thick layer of diamond, which is easily
seen by the different color of the matrix and the wheel body.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

You most likely recall Bucky Goldstein, later Pete Somebody. He was,
without out a doubt, one of the most intelligent people that posted here.

Now morphed into pytor fillip?

He was less than thrilled with me, but we had numerous exchanges on the side
in which I did my best to help him as he developed his machining skills.
One of the things we discussed time and again was this very issue. He
held to Teenut's concept with vigor (using a star dresser), but one day I
finally convinced him to try a dressing stick. Instant believer. You
will be, too. Crack open that moldy wallet and spend a couple dollars with
the idea that you're going to disprove my suggestion. Get back to me.
I'm willing to bet that my real life experience is more valuable than your
opinion.

Never having used one, I cannot say how they compare to star wheel
dressers. But on your suggestion I will seek one out - could you
say if they're in McMaster Carr or MSC?

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

While I'm very capable of doing so, I rarely use the side of the wheel. Yes,
my tools are hollow ground, including long parting tools with one
continuous face on each side. In many instances I don't machine without a
chip breaker, so the portion that parallels the cutting edge is often formed
by the side of the wheel, so it is, for all practical purposes, not hollow
ground.

Hmm. After roughing out, I typically do the side relief
and front/back taper on those, with the periphery of the
wheel, so they do wind up being circular sections, ie
'hollow ground.' Seems like that's the only way I can
get them to have the profile I like, accurately. I can
tell how worn they are getting by how wide they are -
I sharpen them right across the front. The one on the
machine right now is down to 0.088 wide at this point.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Ken Cutt wrote:

I use a diamond , but with what I have read now I am tempted to get a
stick next time I am in Kelowna
Princess Auto
Page 179 in Fall and Winter catalog
part number 3410061
and all of $6.99
For that price hard not to at least try one and find out the difference

Agreed. Thanks.

. Hope you had a good winter if indeed you even got one , ha ha .

There's been the odd bit of white stuff falling out of the sky. Not
sure what it is though. :-)

Ted

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

You most likely recall Bucky Goldstein, later Pete Somebody. He was,
without out a doubt, one of the most intelligent people that posted here.

Now morphed into pytor fillip?

If so, I don't know it. We haven't talked in well over a year.


Never having used one, I cannot say how they compare to star wheel
dressers. But on your suggestion I will seek one out - could you
say if they're in McMaster Carr or MSC?

Yep, found them in an old MSC catalog, which I mentioned elsewhere. Look
under abrasives, then finishing, or check this link, originally posted by
Gunner. https://www.travers.com/htdocs/pdf/0779cat.pdf

Do give it a go, Jim. I'm pretty sure you'll kick yourself for not having
done so years ago.

Harold

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
snip-----

Hmm. After roughing out, I typically do the side relief
and front/back taper on those, with the periphery of the
wheel, so they do wind up being circular sections, ie
'hollow ground.' Seems like that's the only way I can
get them to have the profile I like, accurately. I can
tell how worn they are getting by how wide they are -
I sharpen them right across the front. The one on the
machine right now is down to 0.088 wide at this point.

Jim

Exactly as I do, too. I've found that the tops of parting tools respond
well to the radius of the wheel, so I grind what surely must be no more than
three degrees of positive rake on the tool as an almost last operation.
One has to start well back of the edge and extend the grind back to the
solid portion of the shank. Tools seem to have superior chip flow and
cutting ability with this minor variation. The only negative is as you
push the tool back from sharpening, the cutting edge drops slightly, so they
must be shimmed up. I keep a huge collection of shims on the headstock of
my lathe, so that's no problem at all. For those that use the insert type
tool holders (KDK, Aloris, etc.), it's a simple screw adjustment.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Exactly as I do, too. I've found that the tops of parting tools respond
well to the radius of the wheel, so I grind what surely must be no more than
three degrees of positive rake on the tool as an almost last operation.
One has to start well back of the edge and extend the grind back to the
solid portion of the shank. Tools seem to have superior chip flow and
cutting ability with this minor variation. The only negative is as you
push the tool back from sharpening, the cutting edge drops slightly, so they
must be shimmed up. I keep a huge collection of shims on the headstock of
my lathe, so that's no problem at all. For those that use the insert type
tool holders (KDK, Aloris, etc.), it's a simple screw adjustment.

Interesting. I keep my home-grown grooving/cutoff tools with
purely zero top rake - I don't grind the top face at all. This
seems to work pretty well, given that these are most often
used as grooving or chamfering tools (with the indexable
toolpost kicked over a notch or two) and never get buried
more than about 1/4 inch deep in a part. Beyond that and I
reach for a real cutoff tool.

The Aloris holders do indeed put that three or so degrees of
back rake on their cutoff tools, but again I tend to run mine
at zero back rake, in a home-made holder. If they didn't
work tolerably well, I would consider making one with
rake (angled bottom to the holder) but so far it just hasn't
been needed.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Oh its supposed to take 5 to 10 minutes not 2 hours?
Oh day 3 more grinding happened...finished original cutting tool and did a
round nose tool. Tomorrow night will probably be first night of actual
hands
on lathe work. (fingers crossed.) Will have to start new thread
Reno, Paul


"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

[sitting at grinder]

To me, 5 or 10 minutes grinding a tool is a pleasant break from
standing at the lathe, and a nicely ground tool is worth a pat on the
back and a fuzzy feel good feeling that can really tone down the
other things you've just fluffed (-:

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Exactly as I do, too. I've found that the tops of parting tools
respond
well to the radius of the wheel, so I grind what surely must be no more
than
three degrees of positive rake on the tool as an almost last operation.
One has to start well back of the edge and extend the grind back to the
solid portion of the shank. Tools seem to have superior chip flow and
cutting ability with this minor variation. The only negative is as you
push the tool back from sharpening, the cutting edge drops slightly, so
they
must be shimmed up. I keep a huge collection of shims on the headstock
of
my lathe, so that's no problem at all. For those that use the insert
type
tool holders (KDK, Aloris, etc.), it's a simple screw adjustment.

Interesting. I keep my home-grown grooving/cutoff tools with
purely zero top rake - I don't grind the top face at all. This
seems to work pretty well, given that these are most often
used as grooving or chamfering tools (with the indexable
toolpost kicked over a notch or two) and never get buried
more than about 1/4 inch deep in a part. Beyond that and I
reach for a real cutoff tool.

The Aloris holders do indeed put that three or so degrees of
back rake on their cutoff tools, but again I tend to run mine
at zero back rake, in a home-made holder. If they didn't
work tolerably well, I would consider making one with
rake (angled bottom to the holder) but so far it just hasn't
been needed.

Jim

It's been so long since I started grinding my parting tools that way that I
can't honestly say what prompted me to do it, but I have a hunch it was a
result of poor chip flow in a deep cut. The minor amount of positive rake
is quite helpful in parting, especially in materials like stainless. I'm
not sure anything helps you when parting mild steel! :-)

You've likely noticed that stainless responds quite well to positive rake.
It becomes a balancing act, too much and you experience tip failure from
chipping or over heating, , too little and you get tip failure from chip
welding and abrading.

Long ago (still an apprentice at Sperry) I was turning some stainless plates
round, from what I recall to be about 1/8" thick material. . A fairly
young journeyman, new on the job, walked up to me and suggested I'd have a
lot better luck if I'd use HSS and plenty of positive rake, so much rake
that he sounded like he was nuts. The plates being machined were being
held between thick plates by tailstock pressure so you could machine the
periphery fully and deburr them. the holding plates being smaller in size.
At that point I felt I had nothing to lose, so I ground a HSS tool with
considerable positive rake and a rather broad and gentle chip breaker. I
then ran the machine slower, and fed the tool directly on the full width of
the plate, using a fine feed, maybe .002" and ran coolant on the cut.
Couldn't believe my eyes. The chip came off beautifully, the tool held up
for the job to be completed. The parts had an excellent finish when done.
Overall, it was much faster than using carbide. Along with a few other
cherished memories, that one has stood out in my mind. A definite
variation from suggested machining practice that has outstanding results.
I've used that concept many times since.

Maybe that helps explain why I grind the top rake on my parting tools? Hard
to say. I just know I do. :-) They definitely cut better than they do
without the angle.


Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos wrote:

uh oh. I have some diamond wheels that are solid steel with a
diamond coating that seems to be embedded directly into the steel.

I can't comment on your wheels but I have some diamond shapening
"stones". I've had these for many years so the manufacturing technology
may have changed but the manufacturer of mine included a little pamphlet
on how they were made.

They started with a flat steel plate. This was placed horizontally in a
nickel plating bath and the plating started. During the plating
operation, diamond particles were drizzled through the solution onto the
plate. The details of just how this was done in a controlled fashion
were not revealed. The result was a steel plate coated with diamonds
embedded in a nickel matrix.

These are very fast cutting. For _serious_ sharpening of knives or HSS
tools, I start with the diamond hones then go on to a Wa****a, Soft
Arkansas, Hard Arkansas and Black Hard Arkansas. I'm very glad I got my
Arkansas stones many years ago as I understand the material is becoming
very scarce and the stone quality isn't what it used to be.

Interesting. The use of diamond on steel is not generally acceptable.
Diamond in contact with hot steel does the same thing that silicon carbide
does, it dissolves into the steel. When that happens the diamond has very
short life, gets dull quite fast.

I believe the key word here is "hot". I've read that a diamond wheel
should not be allowed to throw sparks when grinding steel. If it does,
you are being too agressive. I have a diamond wheel one on my Foredom
that has been in use for several years for fine stuff.
anyway. The lone exception is if the wheel runs so slow that it doesn't
generate red heat. Low speed diamond lapping wheels are used for steel
with success.

Wot he said! :-)

Ted