Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul

Wait until you have to sharpen twist drills by hand with a 6" scale as your
only tool other than a snag grinder.
gundoc
"Paul" wrote in message
...
Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:04:01 -0800, "Paul"
wrote:

===Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
===even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
===Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
===years.)
===
===Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
===I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.
===
===What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
===start
===with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)
===
===This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...
===
===Thanks,
===Paul
===

I use whats caled "INSERTS" takes the guess and hand work and allows
me to make more chips sooner.
Seriously though, I do use HSS and usually use a 36 or 60 grit white
wheel to grind to shape and then finish themn up on a CBN wheel. I
used ot use a regualr stone in a bench grinder, but now use a cupped
stone in the bench grinder and that way I can use the sides of the
wheel and my angles come out better for me anyhow. I have also used my
belt grinder to rough shape the HSS toolbits and then use the cup
wheel on the bench grinder or the CBN wheel to finish. I use the CDM
as well as a diamond wheel on a home brew variable speed grinder I
made which is usually run about 200 rpm for most finishing operations
on lathe tools.

Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com
Opinions expressed are those of my wifes,
I had no input whatsoever.
Remove "nospam" from email addy.

Paul scribed in
:

Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just
gained even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a
tool out. Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this
out. ( a while being years.)

why?
can you visualize the end product - what the cutting edge must look
like to achieve the cut you want?
if not, you've got a problem (-:

if you can, grinding is just a matter of removing the stuff not
needed.

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard
to do. I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

that's what the toolrest is for, to rest your hand/fingers on so you
can hold the toolbit steady for grinding.

the grinding wheel HAS been dressed true hasn't it?

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools?

permanent marker. shine up the surface if it is not already shiny,
and draw on it using a fine marker. if you get the thing too hot
the ink will burn off, so go slow when using this.
the marker lines guide you to your desired shape.
if you need to grind off 3 faces, mark one and grind it, then mark
the next and so on. that way you don't grind off the makrs you need
for later.


What
face do you start with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all
night.)

never thought of it. I just do it....

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
http://terrapin.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/welcome.html \ /
ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML E-Mail - - - - - - - X
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PLEASE pretend you don't know me.

DejaVU wrote:

that's what the toolrest is for, to rest your hand/fingers on so you
can hold the toolbit steady for grinding.

the grinding wheel HAS been dressed true hasn't it?
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\


I set the tool rest so I let the tool rest on it, thats "stedier" than
my
fingers/hand. :-)
...lew...

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:04:01 -0800, "Paul"
wrote:

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools?

http://www.productiveworkspace.com/S.../grinding.html

In article , Paul says...

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

OK what's going on is, the instructor is saving the
expensive HSS tool bits for later. This is pretty
common.

Tips:

1) Pedestal grinders are very very dangerous. Probably
the most dangerous machine to you, in that shop, at this
time - you will be using it a lot and some of the time
you will be frustrated and intend on getting a good tool
out of the job. That's when you have a lot of pressure
on the tool and your hand slips. Imagine sticking your
hand out a car door and pushing your finger into the pavement
when the car's going 80. That sort of thing throbs
for weeks afterwards so take it easy.

2) don't quench HSS tools when they're hot.

3) the best tool to start with might be a brass turning
tool. Two simple grinds, side relief and front relief
with front angle. The side relief should be straight along
the tools side, parallel to the long axis. Front angle and
relief should give you about a 1/16 inch overhang in front,
and should grind about 1/8 farther on the right side of the
tool than on the left. No top or side rake, the upper
surface is simply left alone.

I don't like back rake for HSS tools, I make a steel turning
tool out of the brass tool formed above, by simply grinding
side rake on the top surface. Best is if the side cutting edge
thus formed is exactly coincidental with the upper left
corner of the square cross section of the tool.

You might be better off with 1/4 inch stock and 1/4 inch
tools to start, there is less roughing to get where you
want to be. They do shrink faster when are experimenting
though! For the same reason, it's best to start sharpening
twist drills around the 1/2 inch size or thereabouts.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

--What he said. When you're done with front and side you'll want
to "break" the edge that does the cutting. Do this with a hand stone.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Why does it take so long to
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : see the blindingly obvious?
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

"Paul" wrote in message
...
Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

I took my first machine tools class at night school in the local Vo-Tech
last fall, and the instructor had a very good system to teach us. It took
the 6 of us who'd never used a metal lathe under a half hour to get the
first cutting tool made and used on the lathe.

First off, he chucked up a bar and made it round with a faced end. This
showed us what we were supposed to accomplish with a good tool.

Second, he had large models to show what the tool should look like. These
were 2x2" pine stock with the proper edges and clearances cut. He had
examples for 3 or 4 different forms, including one for threading that we
used a few weeks into the class.

Third, the sequence of grinding was left side, front, top side and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times. Take a fresh piece of tool stock
(we used 3/8" HSS) and grind the left side so there is an angle from top to
bottom. Hold the tool from the left side of the wheel to do this. Next grind
the front end so that it has an angle from top to bottom and the right edge
is ground back from the left. Hold the end of the tool from directly in
front of the wheel. Then rotate the tool so the top can be ground so that
the angle slopes down from the cutting edge, Hold this from the right side
of the wheel.

It takes longer to describe than to do, and really pointed out to me the
advantages of getting at least the first experience with someone who can do
it well. One important lesson was to make a decent tool and cut some metal.
You'll see pretty quickly where an improvement can be made, and I ended up
regrinding the tool a few different ways over the semester for different
prints. Once I got the hang of the lathe (oh, another important point, the
class lathes were well-maintained 14x40 "USA"-brand - good equipment
definitely helps a newbie), I tried honing the edges and got another boost
in cutting performance. From that point on, it's been a matter of practice,
practice, practice.

Pete

"Pete Bergstrom" wrote in message
...


and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times.

Pete,
I wonder if you understand how fortunate you are to have been instructed as
you have. I've been grinding toolbits since 1953 or so and that's the one
thing that set me free. Until you can sharpen a HSS toolbit free-hand
with no obstructions, you will always struggle with them. My method of
grinding toolbits involves a grinder with no tool rest. All they do is
impede you.

Keep the wheel (aluminum oxide only, J hardness, 60 grit) running very true
and flat, no bounce, and slightly roughed up with a dressing stick if you
dress with a diamond. You can grind toolbits with a single grinding
pattern per face with almost no effort. It helps to have the grinder
mounted high, about the height of your elbow, so you can stand erect to
grind the tools. It's a bit uncomfortable at first, but, guaranteed, once
you master the art, you'll NEVER go back to a typical grinder with a tool
rest, especially mounted low.

Harold

First off thanks to everyone that has been replying to this thread.

Now free handed. All of the grinders in our classroom have tool rests
installed on them. So we are thus holding then tool and resting
the hand that holds the tool on them. One thing the instructor has
been telling us is to "hold" on to the tool in the same position
until you have finished the face you are working on. Hopefully allowing
you to keep placing the tool back in the same position as you
take the tool off to view your progression... and quench the tool. However,
with HSS you are not supposed to quench the tool? I noticed someone
mentioned dipping the non-cutting end instead.


Paul



"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Pete Bergstrom" wrote in message
...


and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times.

Pete,
I wonder if you understand how fortunate you are to have been instructed
as
you have. I've been grinding toolbits since 1953 or so and that's the
one
thing that set me free. Until you can sharpen a HSS toolbit free-hand
with no obstructions, you will always struggle with them. My method of
grinding toolbits involves a grinder with no tool rest. All they do is
impede you.

Keep the wheel (aluminum oxide only, J hardness, 60 grit) running very
true
and flat, no bounce, and slightly roughed up with a dressing stick if you
dress with a diamond. You can grind toolbits with a single grinding
pattern per face with almost no effort. It helps to have the grinder
mounted high, about the height of your elbow, so you can stand erect to
grind the tools. It's a bit uncomfortable at first, but, guaranteed,
once
you master the art, you'll NEVER go back to a typical grinder with a tool
rest, especially mounted low.

Harold

--Do it the way the teacher says until you're comfortable with the
process. Nothing wrong with using the tool rest; safer, too, for a newbie.
I still use it faithfully. The only time I *don't* use a tool rest is when
I'm sharpening a drillbit. As for quenching: don't let the tool get hot
enough to change color B4 you quench and you won't have the annealing
problem. Dunk the tool B4 you start grinding; when the last of the liquid
boils off dunk it again, etc.

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Why does it take so long to
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : see the blindingly obvious?
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 17:43:14 GMT, steamer wrote:
--Do it the way the teacher says until you're comfortable with the
process. Nothing wrong with using the tool rest; safer, too, for a newbie.
I still use it faithfully. The only time I *don't* use a tool rest is when
I'm sharpening a drillbit. As for quenching: don't let the tool get hot
enough to change color B4 you quench and you won't have the annealing
problem. Dunk the tool B4 you start grinding; when the last of the liquid
boils off dunk it again, etc.

Quenching won't anneal anything. Quenching hardens heat treatable
steel.

HSS is used for tool bits because it doesn't lose its strength at a red
heat. It won't lose its strength at a red heat when grinding either. But
the very edge in contact with the wheel gets to yellow heat (note the
color of the sparks), and dipping it in water will cause microcracks at
the edge which will weaken it.

You wouldn't quench an oil or air hardening steel in water, because
it would crack. Don't do it with HSS bits you're grinding either, for the
same reason. The water pot on a bench grinder is the devil's invention,
don't use it. If the bit gets too hot to handle while grinding, set it
down for a minute, and don't press so hard next time.

Gary

In article ,
steamer wrote:
--Do it the way the teacher says until you're comfortable with the
process. Nothing wrong with using the tool rest; safer, too, for a newbie.
I still use it faithfully. The only time I *don't* use a tool rest is when
I'm sharpening a drillbit.

Note that Teenut (I sure miss that man), in his "Bionic Darex"
posting, *did* suggest using the tool rest on the grinder when
sharpening drill bits -- but using it to support your left *hand* to
give more control during the motions involved in performing a clean
sharpening job.

Enjoy,
DoN.
--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Harold & Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...
"Pete Bergstrom" wrote in message
...
and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times.

Pete,
I wonder if you understand how fortunate you are to have been instructed
as
you have. I've been grinding toolbits since 1953 or so and that's the
one
thing that set me free. Until you can sharpen a HSS toolbit free-hand
with no obstructions, you will always struggle with them. My method of
grinding toolbits involves a grinder with no tool rest. All they do is
impede you.

Thanks, I do recognize the quality of my instruction and was disappointed
that the school administration didn't offer the same course this semester
(he just barely managed to keep it going by having a couple of shop stewards
at local companies vouch for the importance). This semester the class is at
the Ford plant near my house and I couldn't get an invitation. Maybe next
fall I can get another night class.

There are two main reasons for holding the tool free that I learned: first
to do it right. Second, to avoid a possible pinching point. They made good
sense to me.

Keep the wheel (aluminum oxide only, J hardness, 60 grit) running very
true
and flat, no bounce, and slightly roughed up with a dressing stick if you
dress with a diamond. You can grind toolbits with a single grinding
pattern per face with almost no effort. It helps to have the grinder
mounted high, about the height of your elbow, so you can stand erect to
grind the tools. It's a bit uncomfortable at first, but, guaranteed,
once
you master the art, you'll NEVER go back to a typical grinder with a tool
rest, especially mounted low.

Thanks!
Pete

"Pete Bergstrom" wrote in message
news:401e87af$0$41288
snip--------

Thanks!
Pete


You're most welcome! I hope some of it was worthwhile for you.

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times.

effort. It helps to have the grinder mounted high, about the
height of your elbow, so you can stand erect to grind the tools.

just to tweek your nose Harold (-:
my grinder sits on a 8 inch high carboard box, on the floor.
I sit at it on a small stool.....

weird, but at least the grit doesn't fly all over the lathe etc.

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
http://terrapin.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/welcome.html \ /
ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML E-Mail - - - - - - - X
If you receive email saying "Send this to everyone you know," / \
PLEASE pretend you don't know me.

"DejaVU" wrote in message
...
Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

and don't use
the tool rest - hold it free at all times.

effort. It helps to have the grinder mounted high, about the
height of your elbow, so you can stand erect to grind the tools.

just to tweek your nose Harold (-:
my grinder sits on a 8 inch high carboard box, on the floor.
I sit at it on a small stool.....

weird, but at least the grit doesn't fly all over the lathe etc.

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\


Oooohhh! My aching back! ;-)

Harold

Harold & Susan Vordos scribed in
:

I sit at it on a small stool.....


Oooohhh! My aching back! ;-)

hehe
my aching back comes from standing since I sit all day anyway
(computer geek for money for tools)
I have 2 stools in the workshop, a tall one and a short one.
both made from scrap lumber on the spur of the moment.

swarf, steam and wind

--
David Forsyth -:- the email address is real /"\
http://terrapin.ru.ac.za/~iwdf/welcome.html \ /
ASCII Ribbon campaign against HTML E-Mail - - - - - - - X
If you receive email saying "Send this to everyone you know," / \
PLEASE pretend you don't know me.

"Paul" wrote in message ...
Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul


Well, I cheat and use a belt grinder. Things don't seem to hot up as
much, it's a lot faster and I've got a lot better control with a large
tilting table. I usually start with the end first, then the side and
finally the top. I use 40 grit belts to rough HSS lathe bits out
with, usually 80 grit for resharpening and a diamond hone to put on
the final edge. My wheel grinder just collects dust sitting there...

Stan

"Stan Schaefer" wrote in message
om...
snip----
Well, I cheat and use a belt grinder. Things don't seem to hot up as
much, it's a lot faster and I've got a lot better control with a large
tilting table. I usually start with the end first, then the side and
finally the top. I use 40 grit belts to rough HSS lathe bits out
with, usually 80 grit for resharpening and a diamond hone to put on
the final edge. My wheel grinder just collects dust sitting there...

Stan

I've used my belt sander (for cutter sharpening) on many occasions as well,
but they have the tendency to round off the cutting edge unless the belt
runs in intimate contact with the back plate, and not all of them do. I
certainly have no quarrel with their ability to remove material. When I
do use one, unless it's for a very large drill bit, I always follow up with
a grinding wheel, but then I'm very comfortable with them. Not everyone
is.

Harold

Paul wrote:

Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul

For lathe tools, I always tried to have the tool bit 90 degrees
to the work. When grinding a new one, I would start with the end
clearance, approx. 20 degrees. Then I would do the actual cutting
clearance, approx. 5-10 degrees???. Assuming the tool is held in
an approx horizontal plane, I would add a "shear" angle to the top.
Approx. 5 degrees for steels, maybe 20 degrees or so for alum., a
negative angle for brass.

Last I would touch the sharp corner of the leading edge to "break"
it while holding the appropiate clearance angle. Follow this with
a honing to further refine the corner. Or simply put a nice radius
on by grinding. Smaller radius is better than big in terms of reducing
area of contact, etc. A tool ground similar should give a good surface
finish uing up to .006 to .010 feedrate

When you have the basic anles setup, hold the tool bit in one hand,
and use the other hand's fingers to steady the tool so you have more
"feel" and control over the process.

Of course the whole process is made a lot easier if the wheel is
dressed flat, running true, and of proper grain size.

And remember, practice makes perfect (or better??)
Lurker

After a while you will be touching up tool bits and only occasionally
using a new bit. I start grinding the end, then grind the side
followed by the top. Then go to the fine wheel and touch up the top
and finally back to the end and around to the side to round off the
edge between the end and side. Unless I am grinding a bit for
threading, I don't use any fancy guide for the angles.

Dan


"Paul" wrote in message ...
Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul

"Paul" wrote in news:101jp8a1bgmgia6
@corp.supernews.com:

Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while
being
years.)

Getting an edge down to just "one" grinding face showing is hard to do.
I'm guessing a steadier hand is probably what I need.

What kind of tricks do you guys use to grind your tools? What face do
you
start
with. (I think I had a nice grimace going all night.)

This is using 3/8" cold rolled square material...

Thanks,
Paul



Patience!!....
#1 thing....Patience.
Use light pressure and 'stroke' the tool, don't just hold it to the
surface of the wheel. Use the tool rest, that's what it's for. Adjust the
angle of the rest to get your desired grind angle, then using light
pressure, move the tool back and forth across the face of the wheel,
stopping every few strokes to let it cool off.
A trick for cooling without hardening the edge is to dip the shank of the
tool in the water. Let the water draw the heat out through the shank.
The shank won't (shouldn't ever) be hot enough to alter the grain
structure of the tool. If you are careful, the actual grind face won't be
either. Oh...and did I mention Patience?



--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

Geez and I do just the opposite. Firm pressure and maybe move the bit
across the wheel so as not to get grooves in the wheel. The tool bit
does get hot so dunk it in water to cool it off. Hey I am using HSS
tool bits, so why worry about getting it hot. If the chips don't come
off brown, your speed isn't as high as it might be. The tool gets hot
in use, that is why it is called High Speed Steel. Dunking the bit
in water may cause micro cracks, but if the tool isn't chipping during
use, why worry about it.

Now if I am grinding the end of a file smooth to use as a scraper,
then I don't want to get the steel very hot. So light pressure and
frequent cooling off in the water. Files are not made of hss.

This is not meant to blast you, just to say what I do is different and
seems to work okay for me.

Dan


Anthony wrote in message you

Patience!!....
#1 thing....Patience.
Use light pressure and 'stroke' the tool, don't just hold it to the
surface of the wheel. Use the tool rest, that's what it's for. Adjust the
angle of the rest to get your desired grind angle, then using light
pressure, move the tool back and forth across the face of the wheel,
stopping every few strokes to let it cool off.
A trick for cooling without hardening the edge is to dip the shank of the
tool in the water. Let the water draw the heat out through the shank.
The shank won't (shouldn't ever) be hot enough to alter the grain
structure of the tool. If you are careful, the actual grind face won't be
either. Oh...and did I mention Patience?

I just did a bit of calculation and estimate that I have sharpened
toolbits for some 2400 freshman students in the past 17 years. That
probable adds up to well over 5000 induvidual sharpenings and
re-sharpenings.

I don't claim to have any definite answers but will recount what works
for me.

First, I ALWAYS use the toolrest. I have it set to the angle that I
have found works for the type of jobs that we do and God help the kid
who changes the angle setting.

I don't see that it matters what face of the tool is done first or
last, having said that I usually do the side, top and end in that
order. Some years back I got sick and tired of grinding from solid
and made a simple jig to hold the tools for top and side grinding on a
surface grinder. The ends I always do by hand on the pedastal
grinder. Re-sharpenings are done on the pedastal grinder.

If anyone is interested I will draw up the grinding jig and post it to
the dropbox.

If you are holding the tool close ehough to the business end to
control the grind you wil know when the heat is building and cool the
tool long before it gets hot enough to bother the steel.

As others have said the main key is practice, practice, practice.

Just my .02 on the subject.

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/



On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:04:01 -0800, "Paul"
wrote:

Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while being
years.)

Errol, yes, if you would be so kind as to draw up the jig for sharpening
the bits. I would appreciate it. It would justify more use of the surface
grinder! :-)

Be sure to include it on your CD.

Thanks Errol!
Mart

Errol Groff wrote in
:


I just did a bit of calculation and estimate that I have sharpened
toolbits for some 2400 freshman students in the past 17 years. That
probable adds up to well over 5000 induvidual sharpenings and
re-sharpenings.

I don't claim to have any definite answers but will recount what works
for me.

First, I ALWAYS use the toolrest. I have it set to the angle that I
have found works for the type of jobs that we do and God help the kid
who changes the angle setting.

I don't see that it matters what face of the tool is done first or
last, having said that I usually do the side, top and end in that
order. Some years back I got sick and tired of grinding from solid
and made a simple jig to hold the tools for top and side grinding on a
surface grinder. The ends I always do by hand on the pedastal
grinder. Re-sharpenings are done on the pedastal grinder.

If anyone is interested I will draw up the grinding jig and post it to
the dropbox.

If you are holding the tool close ehough to the business end to
control the grind you wil know when the heat is building and cool the
tool long before it gets hot enough to bother the steel.

As others have said the main key is practice, practice, practice.

Just my .02 on the subject.

Errol Groff
Instructor, Machine Tool Department
H.H. Ellis Tech
613 Upper Maple Street
Danielson, CT 06239

860 774 8511 x1811

http://pages.cthome.net/errol.groff/

http://newenglandmodelengineeringsociety.org/



On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 21:04:01 -0800, "Paul"
wrote:

Well tonight we started grinding our cutting tools and I've just gained
even more respect for you guys that can properly grind a tool out.
Seems to me it might take me a while to figure this out. ( a while
being
years.)

"Errol Groff" wrote in message
...
snip---

First, I ALWAYS use the toolrest. I have it set to the angle that I
have found works for the type of jobs that we do and God help the kid
who changes the angle setting.

I fully agree in your particular setting. When one is in a learning curve,
and the work at hand is relatively predictable, so leaving the rest at a
desired angle is certainly not unreasonable. Where that begins to get in
the way is when one is far more familiar with tool grinding and desires to
grind features not generally taught in class. The use of a tool rest,
perhaps when learning, keeps you out of trouble regards safety, and helps
establish proper relief angles, but is a definite liability when you have
gained enough experience to grind tools well. That was a hard lesson for
me to learn. It came only when I was hired in a job shop where time was
ultra critical.

I had been working as a machinist for over 8 years when I was exposed to the
no tool rest concept. Very uncomfortable at first, it was. In the end,
though, I can honestly say it is the best thing I ever learned about
sharpening tool bits, and I never struggled with them from day one. It just
made an easy job all the easier for me.

I don't see that it matters what face of the tool is done first or
last, having said that I usually do the side, top and end in that
order. Some years back I got sick and tired of grinding from solid
and made a simple jig to hold the tools for top and side grinding on a
surface grinder. The ends I always do by hand on the pedastal
grinder. Re-sharpenings are done on the pedastal grinder.

I'm with you. The only rule I have is that I generally sharpen the front
face last, but only because it guarantees the width of many of the tools I
grind. I'm comfortable with grinding parting and grooving tools within a
thou, and the last bit is best done by removing a tiny amount from the face.
It also allows you to achieve a right angle with the sides, leaving you a
bit more wander room as you rough out the tool. YMMV.

In place of a surface grinder, when I finally get my shop up and running
again, I plan to use parting wheels to rough out toolbits. That only because
I picked up an old cutter grinder, though. Grinding parting and grooving
tools is slow business, but they can be roughed out in less than a couple
minutes with a parting wheel by removing pieces instead of grinding
everything away. All that is left is to grind proper relief and rake on
the tool, saving at least 80% of the grinding time. That, for me, is and
always will be a hand process, which is far easier than making constant
changes on a cutter grinder for all the different grinds. You have the
added benefit of being able to tailor the cut to the occasion. A holding
fixture on a surface grinder may or may not offer that option. Hopefully
you've designed it into yours..

If anyone is interested I will draw up the grinding jig and post it to
the dropbox.

I'd love to see it, Errol. Please let us know when it's there.

If you are holding the tool close ehough to the business end to
control the grind you wil know when the heat is building and cool the
tool long before it gets hot enough to bother the steel.

Yep! And if you happen to get it a bit too hot, place it against another
flat piece of steel and allow some of the heat to dissipate before quenching
it. That keeps the tool from fracturing.

As others have said the main key is practice, practice, practice.

Just my .02 on the subject.

Worth much more, Errol!


Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

In place of a surface grinder, when I finally get my shop up and running
again, I plan to use parting wheels to rough out toolbits. That only because
I picked up an old cutter grinder, though. Grinding parting and grooving
tools is slow business, but they can be roughed out in less than a couple
minutes with a parting wheel by removing pieces instead of grinding
everything away. All that is left is to grind proper relief and rake on
the tool, saving at least 80% of the grinding time.

Nice trick - one which I've never seen before, and will
apply in the future. It's no coincidence that the one
injury I've given myself in a shop up to date was when
roughing out - a parting tool. From a 3/8 hss blank.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Anyone use abrasive belt grinders to sharpen HSS tool bits? Supposed to be
easier and cooler on the steel?

"Marty Escarcega" wrote in message
...
Anyone use abrasive belt grinders to sharpen HSS tool bits? Supposed to be
easier and cooler on the steel?

Under normal circumstances I do not endorse the idea. The speed gained is
not worth the precision lost, but it's pretty good for roughing. If you
have the typical belt sander, you'll notice that the belt does not run tight
against the back stop. Even when they do, they still don't cut with the
desirable precision of a wheel. The problem is you get miniscule edge
rounding from the belt. If you grind with a single face, it is often
noticeable when you stone your tool. In a sense, you start out with a
somewhat worn tool. There's no substitute for a final grind on a wheel.

Harold

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:57:12 GMT, Marty Escarcega
wrote:

Anyone use abrasive belt grinders to sharpen HSS tool bits? Supposed to be
easier and cooler on the steel?

Every day. both a 6x48 and a 1x42. Then finish on a ruby or white, then
hone on a diamond.

Works for me.

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

In place of a surface grinder, when I finally get my shop up and running
again, I plan to use parting wheels to rough out toolbits. That only
because
I picked up an old cutter grinder, though. Grinding parting and
grooving
tools is slow business, but they can be roughed out in less than a couple
minutes with a parting wheel by removing pieces instead of grinding
everything away. All that is left is to grind proper relief and rake on
the tool, saving at least 80% of the grinding time.

Nice trick - one which I've never seen before, and will
apply in the future. It's no coincidence that the one
injury I've given myself in a shop up to date was when
roughing out - a parting tool. From a 3/8 hss blank.

Jim

Ouch! Been there, done that.
We used to rely on the cutter grinder room to do that for us where I was
trained. At that point in time there was precious little available in the
way of indexable tooling, certainly nothing in the way of parting or
grooving tools. Grinding parting tools by hand was the norm.

If you haven't used a parting wheel on a cutter grinder before, it's an
awesome display. Because the wheels are very narrow, they cut like gang
busters. I still have the short end of a 1" tap we cut off in something
like 15 seconds using the procedure, spinning the tap while parting.
It's a lot faster than parting on a lathe. :-)

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

If you haven't used a parting wheel on a cutter grinder before, it's an
awesome display. Because the wheels are very narrow, they cut like gang
busters. I still have the short end of a 1" tap we cut off in something
like 15 seconds using the procedure, spinning the tap while parting.
It's a lot faster than parting on a lathe. :-)

Funny you should mention that.

They delivered a multi-million dollar tool here a few months
ago, and were setting it up in a lab. The install guy screwed
up and cross-threaded one of the 3/4 inch levelling screws
in the base.

Big consternation because this was one that would be holding
much of the weight and it had to be solid.

I had the correct metric tap to clean it up, but the underside
was too badly buggered to get the tap to start right. The
topside of the threads were open, but the tap was just a *tad* too
long to get it in the area above the threads.

So I took the tap down to the shop and used the dry cutoff
wheel to buzz a quarter inch off the end. That was a bit
nerve wracking with the HSS tap buried in the wheel, holding
it up against the fence by hand. Came out all right and
I was a hero for getting the thing ready to roll.

The guy I was helping said he would get me a replacment tap
to make good on the one I modified. It was from a good
Greenfield set so I said, buy one of those, and gave him
the MSC part no.

It came in, and he called me. He said they shipped some
kind of bogus brand, it wasn't greenfield. I said bring
it down and I would check it. Sure enough it looked OK,
but said GTD on it. Hmm. Never heard of that. But I
went to put it away in the set, and *all* those taps
said "GTD" on them.

Doh. Greenfield Tap and Die.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

I've been following this thread, but there's an issue that has not
been addressed which I'd like to ask about.

I'm new at this and have been learning from a shop class, and from a
mentor who has been machining for about 50 years.

My mentor first taught me to grind tools. He showed me to run the tool
back and forth across the wheel, to keep the wheel in good shape. I
started a machine tool class and the teacher there demonstrated
grinding a tool by shoving it right into the wheel. I couldn't find a
decent wheel on any of the grinders in that shop.

"Sam" wrote in message
...
I've been following this thread, but there's an issue that has not
been addressed which I'd like to ask about.

I'm new at this and have been learning from a shop class, and from a
mentor who has been machining for about 50 years.

My mentor first taught me to grind tools. He showed me to run the tool
back and forth across the wheel, to keep the wheel in good shape.

That is the proper way to grind when it's possible. It isn't always
possible, however. It requires a wheel that is kept flat and one that is
dressed often enough to keep the wheel "sharp". Abrasive grains dull and
quit cutting without excessive pressure. That's when they cut very hot, and
is also when a wheel is most dangerous because you have to bear down so hard
you're out of control when the tool slides off the edge of the wheel. It's
especially dangerous when the grinding support is gapped to far from the
wheel.

I started a machine tool class and the teacher there demonstrated
grinding a tool by shoving it right into the wheel. I couldn't find a
decent wheel on any of the grinders in that shop.

Your teacher likely knows less about sharpening than you do. I don't
intend any slurs towards those that have little experience, but it's a fact,
those that rely on insert tooling generally lack the necessary skills to
properly sharpen either HSS or brazed carbide tooling. Those of us that
came up in the shop before insert equipment was as widespread as it now is
had no alternative but to learn to grind tools. There was nothing else
available. Can it be your new instructor is young, or lacks experience?

You'd do everyone a service by dressing the wheels properly and resetting
the rests, but I'd certainly check with the instructor before doing so.
It's entirely possible he is so poorly trained that he doesn't understand
the benefit of a well dressed wheel. He obviously has no clue about proper
sharpening, and is passing along very poor procedures. They can be hard to
lose down the road, so I don't suggest you learn them.

It's not uncommon to see wheels like you've described when they are used for
all kinds of grinding, including for welding projects. One should have a
wheel that is used for tool sharpening exclusively, equipped with a proper
hardness and abrasive grain size wheel. Such a wheel does not serve
well for general purpose grinding because it would be too soft and fine.
You may not have that luxury in a shop class, though. Be sure to practice
acceptable procedures as best you can. Don't learn any bad habits.

Harold

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:24:38 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Errol Groff" wrote in message
.. .
snip---

First, I ALWAYS use the toolrest. I have it set to the angle that I
have found works for the type of jobs that we do and God help the kid
who changes the angle setting.

I fully agree in your particular setting. When one is in a learning curve,
and the work at hand is relatively predictable, so leaving the rest at a
desired angle is certainly not unreasonable. Where that begins to get in
the way is when one is far more familiar with tool grinding and desires to
grind features not generally taught in class. The use of a tool rest,
perhaps when learning, keeps you out of trouble regards safety, and helps
establish proper relief angles, but is a definite liability when you have
gained enough experience to grind tools well. That was a hard lesson for
me to learn. It came only when I was hired in a job shop where time was
ultra critical.

I had been working as a machinist for over 8 years when I was exposed to the
no tool rest concept. Very uncomfortable at first, it was. In the end,
though, I can honestly say it is the best thing I ever learned about
sharpening tool bits, and I never struggled with them from day one. It just
made an easy job all the easier for me.

I don't see that it matters what face of the tool is done first or
last, having said that I usually do the side, top and end in that
order. Some years back I got sick and tired of grinding from solid
and made a simple jig to hold the tools for top and side grinding on a
surface grinder. The ends I always do by hand on the pedastal
grinder. Re-sharpenings are done on the pedastal grinder.

I'm with you. The only rule I have is that I generally sharpen the front
face last, but only because it guarantees the width of many of the tools I
grind. I'm comfortable with grinding parting and grooving tools within a
thou, and the last bit is best done by removing a tiny amount from the face.
It also allows you to achieve a right angle with the sides, leaving you a
bit more wander room as you rough out the tool. YMMV.

In place of a surface grinder, when I finally get my shop up and running
again, I plan to use parting wheels to rough out toolbits. That only because
I picked up an old cutter grinder, though. Grinding parting and grooving
tools is slow business, but they can be roughed out in less than a couple
minutes with a parting wheel by removing pieces instead of grinding
everything away. All that is left is to grind proper relief and rake on
the tool, saving at least 80% of the grinding time. That, for me, is and
always will be a hand process, which is far easier than making constant
changes on a cutter grinder for all the different grinds. You have the
added benefit of being able to tailor the cut to the occasion. A holding
fixture on a surface grinder may or may not offer that option. Hopefully
you've designed it into yours..

Grinding parting and grooving tools ??? What is that? Thin disks?
What size of HSS are you using? I should just get my SG going and not
worry about it. Good thread. BTW, how do you know diamond dressed
wheels are "dull" and have to be fixed? I've stood in front of huge
grinding wheels for many hours. I need to work on my very cheap
grinder present , but figured if I was going to get it from one it
would have been long ago. I use to think of such things when starting
them up in the morning and wondering if some idiot hit it with
anything. ) Put a steel plate over the top so it won't knock you
out (head injury) , you can always bleed slowly , maybe. The biggest I
worked with was "about" 3.5' Dia. X 3". I was trained in three weeks
from completely broke and asking gas station patrons if they wanted to
buy this redwood waterbed that I built out of 3.5" X 13" laminated
beams. The guy was curious and asked me my background and told him
that I understood linear and rotational geometry and he was like do
you want my job I'll train you ...? I just bought machines and
figured it out may years later about cutting instead of grinding.
I have no real guards or rests , should! I'd love to have someone
show me something I don't know or could "see".
I get lost in printed descriptions. I just tense up and do it with a
very and hopefully non debated form 3 dimensionally in my mind and
do it. Like grinding the top ? If you put in a chip breaker then you
really have to grind a lot for the next when it wears out. Don't ask
me. The others know more.


If anyone is interested I will draw up the grinding jig and post it to
the dropbox.

I'd love to see it, Errol. Please let us know when it's there.

If you are holding the tool close ehough to the business end to
control the grind you wil know when the heat is building and cool the
tool long before it gets hot enough to bother the steel.

Yep! And if you happen to get it a bit too hot, place it against another
flat piece of steel and allow some of the heat to dissipate before quenching
it. That keeps the tool from fracturing.

As others have said the main key is practice, practice, practice.

Just my .02 on the subject.

Worth much more, Errol!


Harold

"Sunworshiper" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:24:38 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:
snip---

Grinding parting and grooving tools ??? What is that? Thin disks?
What size of HSS are you using?

Not thin disks. Narrow tools, just like a commercial parting tool, but
made from various sizes of HSS tool steel. I grind them from 3/8" and 1/2"
square mostly. 1/4" X 1/2" saves a lot of grinding time but limits your
ability to place the tool where you might like it in your tool block. I
prefer the square ones. When you grind the tools, they are usually right
handed, so they cut near the chuck. That's especially important for parting
tools. Grooving tools are generally ground to specification, for such
things as O ring grooves, or snap rings. Piece of cake with a good running
wheel and no work rest.

I should just get my SG going and not
worry about it.

You can get in trouble with very thin tools, including on a surface grinder.
Tool steel has incredible tensile strength, but breaks easily when shocked,
so you have to be careful, especially if you're grinding a long, narrow
tool. As long as you use the right wheel and keep it sharp, though, you
can expect pretty good results on a surface grinder. The only hard part is
getting precisely the angle you desire. That is usually determined by the
holding fixtures. One that is commonly found in shops is a 60 degree one
for sharpening threading tools. That's likely one of the most desirable
fixtures to have if you are fortunate to own a surface grinder.

Good thread. BTW, how do you know diamond dressed
wheels are "dull" and have to be fixed?

If you're making reference to them being dull from dressing with a diamond
instead of a dressing stick where hand grinding is concerned, I know it from
experience, having dressed wheels by every conceivable method aside from
crush rolling. The only way you'll understand the difference between a
wheel that is roughed up with a dressing stick as compared to one that is
diamond dressed is to A-B the wheel. Dress one with a diamond then grind
with it. Touch it up with a dressing stick and repeat. You tell me which
one cuts the best. All that goes out the window on a precision grinder,
though. Diamond dressing is the only way, but conditions are not the same.

If you meant a wheel that is dull from use, then my response is:

It's from experience, and something that may not be real apparent to the
novice. There are signs you can look for, though. One of them is a shiny
surface on the wheel. If a grinding wheel takes on a glaze from use, it's
not breaking down anywhere nearly fast enough. As the grains get dull, the
surface begins to shine and the wheel cuts poorly. It will make a hell of
a lot of heat, but will remove very little material. At that point you
have to decide if you're using the wrong abrasive, or if the wheel is too
hard. There are certain absolutes that are known, so you can make good
decisions about your particular problem. For one, if you're using a
silicon carbide wheel and you're grinding steel of any kind, it's the wrong
selection and the wheel will display the condition I mentioned, and quickly.
Frequent dressing doesn't help.

Another sign of a wheel needing dressing is if it is loaded. That's pretty
easy to see, especially if you're grinding with white aluminum oxide wheels.
The surface of the wheel takes on a black appearance and gets packed off
with swarf. Simple. Dress the wheel. It doesn't take very much, either.
A few thou will get the wheel back to good condition.

I've stood in front of huge
grinding wheels for many hours. I need to work on my very cheap
grinder present , but figured if I was going to get it from one it
would have been long ago. I use to think of such things when starting
them up in the morning and wondering if some idiot hit it with
anything. ) Put a steel plate over the top so it won't knock you
out (head injury) , you can always bleed slowly , maybe.

That theory might work on small wheels, but if you're running large wheels,
say on a crank grinder, if the wheel goes and you're in line with it, pretty
good odds there's going to be a funeral. I'm sure some have survived
exploding wheels, but I wouldn't bank on it. Wheels of that size would
likely move the steel and get you anyway. Lots of energy there.

The biggest I
worked with was "about" 3.5' Dia. X 3". I was trained in three weeks
from completely broke and asking gas station patrons if they wanted to
buy this redwood waterbed that I built out of 3.5" X 13" laminated
beams. The guy was curious and asked me my background and told him
that I understood linear and rotational geometry and he was like do
you want my job I'll train you ...? I just bought machines and
figured it out may years later about cutting instead of grinding.
I have no real guards or rests , should!

I'd love to have someone
show me something I don't know or could "see".
I get lost in printed descriptions. I just tense up and do it with a
very and hopefully non debated form 3 dimensionally in my mind and
do it. Like grinding the top ? If you put in a chip breaker then you
really have to grind a lot for the next when it wears out. Don't ask
me. The others know more.

Depending on the nature of the chip breaker, you can often just grind it
slightly deeper and push it farther back towards the opposite edge of the
tool. The net effect is to lower the cutting point of the tool, but you
can get considerable mileage from the tool that way.

The best part of chip breakers is that when you understand them and can
apply them properly, you can take cuts that you otherwise would not be able.
Boring is a great example. By winding the chips tight enough to break them,
you not only can take a better cut (thanks to the positive rake developed by
the chip breaker), it is also much safer because you don't generate long
strings that can pull you in when they get wound up in the chuck.

Harold

In article , Harold & Susan Vordos says...

Not thin disks. Narrow tools, just like a commercial parting tool, but
made from various sizes of HSS tool steel. I grind them from 3/8" and 1/2"
square mostly. 1/4" X 1/2" saves a lot of grinding time but limits your
ability to place the tool where you might like it in your tool block. I
prefer the square ones. When you grind the tools, they are usually right
handed, so they cut near the chuck.

An example is shown in the photo below, it's the one coming
right out at the viewer. Kinda looks tilted off to one side
but it really is straight out. The side relief makes it
look a bit twisted.

http://www.metalworking.com/DropBox/_2000_retired_files/Tp3.jpg

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:42:31 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:


"Sunworshiper" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 22:24:38 -0800, "Harold & Susan Vordos"
wrote:
snip---

Grinding parting and grooving tools ??? What is that? Thin disks?
What size of HSS are you using?

Not thin disks. Narrow tools, just like a commercial parting tool, but
made from various sizes of HSS tool steel. I grind them from 3/8" and 1/2"
square mostly. 1/4" X 1/2" saves a lot of grinding time but limits your
ability to place the tool where you might like it in your tool block. I
prefer the square ones. When you grind the tools, they are usually right
handed, so they cut near the chuck. That's especially important for parting
tools. Grooving tools are generally ground to specification, for such
things as O ring grooves, or snap rings. Piece of cake with a good running
wheel and no work rest.

I should just get my SG going and not
worry about it.

You can get in trouble with very thin tools, including on a surface grinder.
Tool steel has incredible tensile strength, but breaks easily when shocked,
so you have to be careful, especially if you're grinding a long, narrow
tool. As long as you use the right wheel and keep it sharp, though, you
can expect pretty good results on a surface grinder. The only hard part is
getting precisely the angle you desire. That is usually determined by the
holding fixtures. One that is commonly found in shops is a 60 degree one
for sharpening threading tools. That's likely one of the most desirable
fixtures to have if you are fortunate to own a surface grinder.

Good thread. BTW, how do you know diamond dressed
wheels are "dull" and have to be fixed?

If you're making reference to them being dull from dressing with a diamond
instead of a dressing stick where hand grinding is concerned, I know it from
experience, having dressed wheels by every conceivable method aside from
crush rolling. The only way you'll understand the difference between a
wheel that is roughed up with a dressing stick as compared to one that is
diamond dressed is to A-B the wheel. Dress one with a diamond then grind
with it. Touch it up with a dressing stick and repeat. You tell me which
one cuts the best. All that goes out the window on a precision grinder,
though. Diamond dressing is the only way, but conditions are not the same.

If you meant a wheel that is dull from use, then my response is:

It's from experience, and something that may not be real apparent to the
novice. There are signs you can look for, though. One of them is a shiny
surface on the wheel. If a grinding wheel takes on a glaze from use, it's
not breaking down anywhere nearly fast enough. As the grains get dull, the
surface begins to shine and the wheel cuts poorly. It will make a hell of
a lot of heat, but will remove very little material. At that point you
have to decide if you're using the wrong abrasive, or if the wheel is too
hard. There are certain absolutes that are known, so you can make good
decisions about your particular problem. For one, if you're using a
silicon carbide wheel and you're grinding steel of any kind, it's the wrong
selection and the wheel will display the condition I mentioned, and quickly.
Frequent dressing doesn't help.

Another sign of a wheel needing dressing is if it is loaded. That's pretty
easy to see, especially if you're grinding with white aluminum oxide wheels.
The surface of the wheel takes on a black appearance and gets packed off
with swarf. Simple. Dress the wheel. It doesn't take very much, either.
A few thou will get the wheel back to good condition.

I've stood in front of huge
grinding wheels for many hours. I need to work on my very cheap
grinder present , but figured if I was going to get it from one it
would have been long ago. I use to think of such things when starting
them up in the morning and wondering if some idiot hit it with
anything. ) Put a steel plate over the top so it won't knock you
out (head injury) , you can always bleed slowly , maybe.

That theory might work on small wheels, but if you're running large wheels,
say on a crank grinder, if the wheel goes and you're in line with it, pretty
good odds there's going to be a funeral. I'm sure some have survived
exploding wheels, but I wouldn't bank on it. Wheels of that size would
likely move the steel and get you anyway. Lots of energy there.

The biggest I
worked with was "about" 3.5' Dia. X 3". I was trained in three weeks
from completely broke and asking gas station patrons if they wanted to
buy this redwood waterbed that I built out of 3.5" X 13" laminated
beams. The guy was curious and asked me my background and told him
that I understood linear and rotational geometry and he was like do
you want my job I'll train you ...? I just bought machines and
figured it out may years later about cutting instead of grinding.
I have no real guards or rests , should!

I'd love to have someone
show me something I don't know or could "see".
I get lost in printed descriptions. I just tense up and do it with a
very and hopefully non debated form 3 dimensionally in my mind and
do it. Like grinding the top ? If you put in a chip breaker then you
really have to grind a lot for the next when it wears out. Don't ask
me. The others know more.

Depending on the nature of the chip breaker, you can often just grind it
slightly deeper and push it farther back towards the opposite edge of the
tool. The net effect is to lower the cutting point of the tool, but you
can get considerable mileage from the tool that way.

The best part of chip breakers is that when you understand them and can
apply them properly, you can take cuts that you otherwise would not be able.
Boring is a great example. By winding the chips tight enough to break them,
you not only can take a better cut (thanks to the positive rake developed by
the chip breaker), it is also much safer because you don't generate long
strings that can pull you in when they get wound up in the chuck.

Harold

Experience answer is ok with me , but I was hoping you were going to
come back with something about the under magnification grains, how
they break, and the "glue" holding the wheels together. Maybe, I'm
just missing it or think too much. Tell more , I dressed wheels a
couple of times a day and just don't see how a diamond dressed wheel
can get any better, except the loading problem, and trying to
visualize it being too smooth. When and after I use to grind aircraft
and huge Cat cranks I was thinking how the coolant oil and the steel
doesn't load up the wheel fast... What are you suppose to think about
when machining. ) After the 60 other different things your not to
forget. I see now after D just posted pic.s from you how I got lost?
I don't have a cut off tool holder and never used one , but I've made
them from 1/2" HSS cause I was desperate. I don't enjoy the thought
of cutting work right off the lathe and catching it , ya'll say its
easy, but I need to see it done once to feel comfortable about doing
it myself. That or have a real need for going in 2". See, I was
thinking and still missed I guess that you were talking about cutting
the HSS lengthways kinda , but you talking about parting tools made
under 1/2 deep /downward wise when in use.

I wonder if the wheel was loaded on this one crank I was doing that
the machine that took a number of steps to the other end started
chattering. I'm sure you know what a headache chatter means when your
in the middle of something you can't reset. They didn't have a dresser
that would do it under the work you have on the machine and can't
move. I use to try to calculate in my head where best to stand and
cringe when pushing the start button. 11.25 degrees or 22.5 , 30 + was
out of the question , you have to be right there close and if it let
go I'm with ya on the funeral part. All for just above minimum wage.

No one told me how to sharpen or make metal cutting tools , I just
read and mathematical pictures of how the metal fractures and did it.
I still am stumped on how the bit will load/pile up where I can't see
the edge (even closely examined with it off the machine) and its
cutting just fine. Maybe that isn't suppose to happen , but on some
material I can't seem to stop it.

My mom made me go to school for architecture and I took as many math
and mechanical engineering classes as I could get away with. It was
way more interesting and I had planed to live in Florida and continue
flight lessons to be a corp. pilot. I blindly bought a lathe and had
no real idea how to use it 20 yrs. after school and grinding cranks. I
just got sick of paying machinist to make me stuff. I can't even
recall how I know what is happening , but just have a nak at it. I
really get lost on alot of posts cause I don't know the jargon of
shoulder here and what ever there in the printed work , but pictures
are clear as day. Oh, send me pictures of the grinder you built, even
though I'm not sure if the small upgrade will let me see pictures from
email. I'll just keep it if I can't open it. I finally got to see
the drawings of the holder to grind blanks that wouldn't open from the
drop box. BTW my planer would make those easy. What would be cool is
cast iron blanks to bolt it down on the surface grinder and cut
different angles with the planer to accept the blanks.