VOTERS` VIEWS ON FIREARM OWNERS` RIGHTS AND HUNTING


The highly respected research firm Zogby International has conducted the
first installment of its 2004 Zogby Values Poll, surveying 1,200 voters
nationwide on issues that included firearms and hunting. Working with the
Tower Center for Political Studies at Southern Methodist University and
the O`Leary Report, Zogby`s questions interestingly examine differences in
thinking between people living in the states that voted for George Bush in
2000 (Red states) and Al Gore (Blue states).


Voters were asked: "Do you agree or disagree that American firearm
manufacturers who sell a legal product that is not defective should be
allowed to be sued if a criminal uses their products in a crime?"


Voters in both Red and Blue states strongly oppose such lawsuits-74% of
the former and 72% of the latter. In fact, a majority in every demographic
group opposed the lawsuits; the most strongly opposed, at 83%, were
current members of the military and their families.


The survey also examined how Americans feel about Right-to-Carry laws,
with the pollster asking: "Currently 36 states have laws that allow
residents to qualify for a permit to carry a firearm to protect themselves
if they pass a background check, if they participate in firearms training
and pay a fee to cover administrative costs. Do you feel this is a good
law or a bad law?"


Voters overwhelming favor these self-protection laws by a margin of 79% to
18%. Right-to-Carry drew better than 70% support in every demographic
group, with even non-gun owners indicating their backing by 73% to 23%.


The survey also asked: "Which of the following two statements regarding
gun control comes closer to your own opinion? Statement A: There needs to
be new and tougher gun control legislation to help in the fight against
gun crime; Statement B: There are enough laws on the books. What is needed
is better enforcement of current laws regarding gun control."


By a better than two-to-one margin-66% to 31%-voters nationwide agreed
with Statement B. Only self-identified liberals called for more laws, by a
53% to 44% margin. Moderates solidly favored better enforcement, 62% to
34%.


Voters were asked: "Do you agree the NRA is right to fight gun control on
both the federal and state levels?" NRA`s support stood at 64%, with a
party affiliation breakdown showing Democrats siding with NRA 54% to 42%,
and Republicans 73% to 22%.


Voters were also asked about hunting: "Which of the follow statements
comes closer to your opinion? Statement A: Killing wild animals for food
or sport is an American tradition and an essential part of wildlife
management. Statement B: Hunting is a cruel sport and should be outlawed."
Statement A was chosen by of 92% of gun owners and 73% of non-gun owners.


The survey also addressed wildlife overpopulation, asking: "Some states in
America are being overrun with growing populations of deer, bear, or
wolves. When this happens, which of the following do you feel is the best
option to take? 1) The state should lengthen hunting seasons; 2)
Non-lethal methods of control should be used; 3) People should learn to
live with wildlife."


Lengthening hunting seasons was the overwhelming response, chosen by 61%
of the voters, while only 18% said use non-lethal methods, and 16% opted
for coexistence.


The entire 2004 Zogby Values Poll can be found at www.olearyreport.com



" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

VOTERS` VIEWS ON FIREARM OWNERS` RIGHTS AND HUNTING


The highly respected research firm Zogby International...

Sorry, NRA, you're two years too late. Zogby International is the research
firm that *used to be* highly respected. Since 2002, it's become the tramp
of the industry:

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/1/mooney-c.html

This is the same Zogby that conducted a poll for the Doris Day Animal League
and found (?) that 51% of Americans believe that chimpanzees are entitled to
the same rights as human children:

"First, the poll didn't ask about primates -- a category including anything
from pygmy mouse lemurs to gorillas -- but about chimpanzees. Second, the
actual question gave respondents four options to choose from: In brief, they
could say that chimps ought to be treated "like property," "similar to
children," "the same as adults" or "not sure." Given this particular set of
choices, option two was the obvious pick -- almost as if respondents were
steered toward it. And after 51 percent had chosen "similar to children,"
the Zogby survey inexplicably translated "similar" into "the same" in its
conclusions -- a very big difference. The Doris Day Animal League then
reported this in its press materials."

(From "John Zogby's Creative Polls, And a closer look at his methods" by
Chris Mooney, 2.1.03, _The American Prospect_)

No doubt Americans support hunting and firearms ownership to a high degree.
But don't count on the results of this poll to give you any idea how *many*
of them actually do. If somebody commissions a poll and wants a particular
result, Zogby has, in recent years, found a way to get it.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

Over population of wildlife?
I have many deer come eat my plants, walk out in traffic and poop in my
yard. Each day I have 10 to 20 Wild Turkey in my front yard eating what
little grass is poking through the snow. But the deer are not the ones
removing the wooded areas and paving the world. I have no problem with
hunting but to claim "over population" of wildlife? I worry a whole lot more
of the drunk driving into may car than a deer.
Now I know I should not have bit on this one but I did.

Wayne wrote:

Over population of wildlife?
I have many deer come eat my plants, walk out in traffic and poop in
my yard. Each day I have 10 to 20 Wild Turkey in my front yard
eating what little grass is poking through the snow. But the deer
are not the ones removing the wooded areas and paving the world. I
have no problem with hunting but to claim "over population" of
wildlife? I worry a whole lot more of the drunk driving into may car
than a deer.
Now I know I should not have bit on this one but I did.

Even better - many hunters talk about how their hobby *increases* the
animal population. I just tell them to hunt in town since that's where
the real game shortage seems to be. ;-)

Wayne (the other one)

In article , Gunner says...

The highly respected research firm Zogby International

This is a joke, right? There really is a Zogg firm?

Voters were also asked about hunting: "Which of the follow statements
comes closer to your opinion? Statement A: Killing wild animals for food
or sport is an American tradition and an essential part of wildlife
management.

All I can think of here is that *amazing* hunter mpeg clip that
was linked here a week or so ago, with the $100 per pound
venison result! "Lobster don't cost but twenty a pound!!"

I would honestly have to say (a) to the question above.

Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:57:50 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .

VOTERS` VIEWS ON FIREARM OWNERS` RIGHTS AND HUNTING


The highly respected research firm Zogby International...

Sorry, NRA, you're two years too late. Zogby International is the research
firm that *used to be* highly respected. Since 2002, it's become the tramp
of the industry:

http://www.prospect.org/print/V14/1/mooney-c.html

This is the same Zogby that conducted a poll for the Doris Day Animal League
and found (?) that 51% of Americans believe that chimpanzees are entitled to
the same rights as human children:

"First, the poll didn't ask about primates -- a category including anything
from pygmy mouse lemurs to gorillas -- but about chimpanzees. Second, the
actual question gave respondents four options to choose from: In brief, they
could say that chimps ought to be treated "like property," "similar to
children," "the same as adults" or "not sure." Given this particular set of
choices, option two was the obvious pick -- almost as if respondents were
steered toward it. And after 51 percent had chosen "similar to children,"
the Zogby survey inexplicably translated "similar" into "the same" in its
conclusions -- a very big difference. The Doris Day Animal League then
reported this in its press materials."

(From "John Zogby's Creative Polls, And a closer look at his methods" by
Chris Mooney, 2.1.03, _The American Prospect_)

No doubt Americans support hunting and firearms ownership to a high degree.
But don't count on the results of this poll to give you any idea how *many*
of them actually do. If somebody commissions a poll and wants a particular
result, Zogby has, in recent years, found a way to get it.

Hummm then it sounds like Dems polls doesnt it?

I posted it without comment.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 14:19:52 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Wayne wrote:

Over population of wildlife?
I have many deer come eat my plants, walk out in traffic and poop in
my yard. Each day I have 10 to 20 Wild Turkey in my front yard
eating what little grass is poking through the snow. But the deer
are not the ones removing the wooded areas and paving the world. I
have no problem with hunting but to claim "over population" of
wildlife? I worry a whole lot more of the drunk driving into may car
than a deer.
Now I know I should not have bit on this one but I did.

Even better - many hunters talk about how their hobby *increases* the
animal population. I just tell them to hunt in town since that's where
the real game shortage seems to be. ;-)

Wayne (the other one)

How much have you contributed to Pittman-Robertson and other wildlive
(not just game)
management funds this year?

http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/...21025011.shtml
http://www.qc.ec.gc.ca/faune/sauvagi...m_2-2-99e.html
http://www.sfu.ca/~mauser/papers/hun...cence-rept.pdf

Hunters pay millions of dollars in license and tag fees that pay for
wildlife management.
Hunters have sponsored legislation that has created conservation
stamps and funds to protect and enhance wildlife habitat.
Through organizations such as Whitetails Unlimited, Pheasants Forever,
Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, National Wild Turkey Federation, Quail
Unlimited, the Mule Deer Foundation, Ducks Unlimited and other
conservation groups, hunters have raised millions of dollars and
contributed thousands of hours to benefit wildlife.

Hunters
Do you know that you have contributed over $5,5 BILLION for
conservation in less than 60 years?

That you annually pay over $372 MILLION a year for conservation?

That you do more to aid wildlife than any other group in America?

Many people would support hunting more if they knew who was picking up
the bills for conservation - hunters.

(gunners note: these figures are only those from Pittman Robertson
and other taxes and fees, there are many other more direct
expenditures such as hunting licenses etc etc)

Then if you so care to do so..we can discuss Dingle/Johnson wildlife
management funding...

On over population..you might read this..plenty of other information
available on the net.

http://eces.org/articles/000491.php
" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Gunner wrote:

How much have you contributed to Pittman-Robertson and other wildlive
(not just game)
management funds this year?

Zip. I think of wildlife in local terms. So I leave it alone except for
supplying water. Photo taken from our living room
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/kitty.JPG Near as I can tell, the
only things the local hunters are doing is reducing the wildlife
population every chance they get, tearing up my road without giving a
thought to who will fix it, and leaving their empties for me to pick up.
All the considerate, concerned with wildlife types must live in your
neck of the woods.

Wayne

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

No doubt Americans support hunting and firearms ownership to a high
degree.
But don't count on the results of this poll to give you any idea how
*many*
of them actually do. If somebody commissions a poll and wants a
particular
result, Zogby has, in recent years, found a way to get it.

Hummm then it sounds like Dems polls doesnt it?

I posted it without comment.

I know. That's why somebody had to comment. ~8-)

[wearing ski cap today; too cold for the Yankees cap]

Ed Huntress

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 19:38:54 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

How much have you contributed to Pittman-Robertson and other wildlive
(not just game)
management funds this year?

Zip. I think of wildlife in local terms. So I leave it alone except for
supplying water. Photo taken from our living room
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images/kitty.JPG Near as I can tell, the
only things the local hunters are doing is reducing the wildlife
population every chance they get, tearing up my road without giving a
thought to who will fix it, and leaving their empties for me to pick up.
All the considerate, concerned with wildlife types must live in your
neck of the woods.

Wayne

Virtually every round of ammo, every firearm, firearm related item,
fishing gear etc etc has taxes on them that go to the Pitmann
Robertson and Dingle Johnson funds.

Im curious..do you bitch and moan about the kids driving on your road,
pitching beer bottles and used condoms around your property as well?
Do you know which is which?

Reducing the local game wildlive in a proper manner is ..proper. Are
you claiming that they are acting illegally? If so, you should do your
civic duty and turn them in, have them arrested and testify at their
trial.

Gunner

" ..The world has gone crazy. Guess I'm showing my age...
I think it dates from when we started looking at virtues
as funny. It's embarrassing to speak of honor, integrity,
bravery, patriotism, 'doing the right thing', charity,
fairness. You have Seinfeld making cowardice an acceptable
choice; our politicians changing positions of honor with
every poll; we laugh at servicemen and patriotic fervor; we
accept corruption in our police and bias in our judges; we
kill our children, and wonder why they have no respect for
Life. We deny children their childhood and innocence- and
then we denigrate being a Man, as opposed to a 'person'. We
*assume* that anyone with a weapon will use it against his
fellowman- if only he has the chance. Nah; in our agitation
to keep the State out of the church business, we've
destroyed our value system and replaced it with *nothing*.
Turns my stomach- " Chas , rec.knives

Gunner wrote:

Im curious..do you bitch and moan about the kids driving on your road,
pitching beer bottles and used condoms around your property as well?
Do you know which is which?

OK, I see where you're going with this. You figure that just because I
live here, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'd know anything about
what's going on. Judging by the volume of your posts, you're pretty
smart, and now seem to have correctly deduced that these are probably
not hunters at all, but bad mannered children. How did I miss it?
Anyway, perhaps you could answer some more questions -

Why are these kids so old? Some of them do look the type to have been
held over a couple of years, but still...

How come they're always dressed in camouflage? Is that what kids are
wearing these days?

Why do they only party here during deer hunting season?

Wayne

On Sun, 25 Jan 2004 15:38:00 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Im curious..do you bitch and moan about the kids driving on your road,
pitching beer bottles and used condoms around your property as well?
Do you know which is which?

OK, I see where you're going with this. You figure that just because I
live here, it doesn't necessarily follow that I'd know anything about
what's going on. Judging by the volume of your posts, you're pretty
smart, and now seem to have correctly deduced that these are probably
not hunters at all, but bad mannered children. How did I miss it?
Anyway, perhaps you could answer some more questions -


Sure!

Why are these kids so old? Some of them do look the type to have been
held over a couple of years, but still...

No idea. Retards pretty common where you live?

How come they're always dressed in camouflage? Is that what kids are
wearing these days?

In my part of California...indeed.

Why do they only party here during deer hunting season?

Wayne

Only during deer hunting season? I thought they were constantly
tearing up your roads, littering your front yard and generally being a
pain in the ass all year round based on the bitterness in your post.

Now again..if they are doing something illegal, why dont you have them
arrested, tried and convicted? I would, hunters or not.

Gunner






"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will, through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs, Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota). The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability. Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones, of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

Gunner wrote:

Now again..if they are doing something illegal, why dont you have them
arrested, tried and convicted? I would, hunters or not.

Fooled me then, I figured you'd copy and paste off-topic
anti-litterbugging stuff six times a day to your favorite newsgroups.
Don't know where I got that idea. :-)

I bet you imagine I could just look out my kitchen window, then call the
cops. But we're talking about patrolling six miles of road for two
months at a time, and the cops and game warden are both about 40 miles
away. I know, I know, you'd get remote cameras, a red light and siren
for your truck, a bigger gun than the scofflaws, etc etc. Here's what
I've found works best - It's an archery-only zone, so I started telling
the hunte...er, camokids, that if I hear any shooting, I'll be down to
check it out. Whatdaya' know, most of them moved up the road aways.

Wayne

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:28:14 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Now again..if they are doing something illegal, why dont you have them
arrested, tried and convicted? I would, hunters or not.

Fooled me then, I figured you'd copy and paste off-topic
anti-litterbugging stuff six times a day to your favorite newsgroups.
Don't know where I got that idea. :-)

I bet you imagine I could just look out my kitchen window, then call the
cops. But we're talking about patrolling six miles of road for two
months at a time, and the cops and game warden are both about 40 miles
away. I know, I know, you'd get remote cameras, a red light and siren
for your truck, a bigger gun than the scofflaws, etc etc. Here's what
I've found works best - It's an archery-only zone, so I started telling
the hunte...er, camokids, that if I hear any shooting, I'll be down to
check it out. Whatdaya' know, most of them moved up the road aways.

Wayne


Ah..wayne..if you are close enough to see the 'camo kids" and to talk
to them..are you not close enough to get a license plate number?

If they were littering, tearing up "your" road etc etc..its obvious
that they are scoff laws and you really need to do your civic duty and
have them arrested, testify at their trial and see them convicted and
punished.

Or..hummm are you simply blowing hot air out your butt? Again.

Gunner

"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 00:28:14 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Now again..if they are doing something illegal, why dont you have them
arrested, tried and convicted? I would, hunters or not.

Fooled me then, I figured you'd copy and paste off-topic
anti-litterbugging stuff six times a day to your favorite newsgroups.
Don't know where I got that idea. :-)


No idea. Did you miss your meds this morning?



Wayne



"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

Gunner wrote:

Ah..wayne..if you are close enough to see the 'camo kids" and to talk
to them..are you not close enough to get a license plate number?
If they were littering, tearing up "your" road etc etc..its obvious
that they are scoff laws and you really need to do your civic duty and
have them arrested, testify at their trial and see them convicted and
punished.

I love it. First you figured that I was clueless about who was leaving
the trash behind, so you turned into Gunner for the defense - "if you
did not see them commit, then you must acquit". When that didn't pan
out, yet still supremely confident that Gunner-knows-all, you've
transformed into Gunner the hall monitor - "get the plate number, take
it to the jury". LOL

Here's the deal - road hunters cause me three main headaches. 1. I get
to pick up their trash 2. Even though I have to stay home when it's wet
to save having to fix up the mess caused by driving on a soggy road,
hunters refuse to be so inconvenienced 3. Most of them don't care if
the deer are cleaned out of yet another area, but I do. How to solve
these problems... well, proving which truck left which trash is not as
easy as you make it sound. The only practical way is with remote video
cameras. If I was to go to that trouble and expense and follow up with
the deputy, I might get the satisfaction of hearing that a $25 fine was
levied. As for the road, much of it is public access. I've gated off the
part we own, and added signs to the other parts that are privately owned
but not fenced. Which leaves a big chunk that's only "mine" in the sense
that I built it and maintain it. If an inconsiderate maroon wants to
tear it up, there's nothing I can do about it. To help you get the idea,
imagine if it was you in a four-wheeler, having driven 35 miles out of
town to go hunting, and some guy asked you not to tear through the mud.
You'd rationalize your position in a heartbeat exactly as you do every
day in these newsgroups, and probably give me the finger to boot. So I'm
limited to signs, encouraging the problem to move somewhere else, and
ranting on Usenet, which I'd think that you of all people would
understand.

Or..hummm are you simply blowing hot air out your butt? Again.

Ah yes, the same attitude that's made me so sympathetic. What the hell,
you're living your reward, which seems about right. Likewise, our local
hunters are being rewarded for their attitude - tales of trash,
trespassing, shooting up signs, leaving gates open, cutting locks etc.
hardly started with me. Even though forty-acre parcels leave the land
largely open, owners are putting up no-hunting signs faster than ever.
Check out the future of hunting around here http://tinyurl.com/3dk3t,
fresh off the pages of Cabelas catalog.

Wayne

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 18:18:44 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Ah..wayne..if you are close enough to see the 'camo kids" and to talk
to them..are you not close enough to get a license plate number?
If they were littering, tearing up "your" road etc etc..its obvious
that they are scoff laws and you really need to do your civic duty and
have them arrested, testify at their trial and see them convicted and
punished.

I love it. First you figured that I was clueless about who was leaving
the trash behind, so you turned into Gunner for the defense - "if you
did not see them commit, then you must acquit". When that didn't pan
out, yet still supremely confident that Gunner-knows-all, you've
transformed into Gunner the hall monitor - "get the plate number, take
it to the jury". LOL

Clueless? I asked a simple question. Was it the local kids or the
hunters. Simple.

Here's the deal - road hunters cause me three main headaches. 1. I get
to pick up their trash 2. Even though I have to stay home when it's wet
to save having to fix up the mess caused by driving on a soggy road,
hunters refuse to be so inconvenienced 3. Most of them don't care if
the deer are cleaned out of yet another area, but I do. How to solve
these problems... well, proving which truck left which trash is not as
easy as you make it sound. The only practical way is with remote video
cameras. If I was to go to that trouble and expense and follow up with
the deputy, I might get the satisfaction of hearing that a $25 fine was
levied. As for the road, much of it is public access. I've gated off the
part we own, and added signs to the other parts that are privately owned
but not fenced. Which leaves a big chunk that's only "mine" in the sense
that I built it and maintain it. If an inconsiderate maroon wants to
tear it up, there's nothing I can do about it. To help you get the idea,
imagine if it was you in a four-wheeler, having driven 35 miles out of
town to go hunting, and some guy asked you not to tear through the mud.
You'd rationalize your position in a heartbeat exactly as you do every
day in these newsgroups, and probably give me the finger to boot. So I'm
limited to signs, encouraging the problem to move somewhere else, and
ranting on Usenet, which I'd think that you of all people would
understand.

Actually, I have rather wide permission to hunt on a number of ranches
around here, because Im not a slob hunter (or kid with a cooler full
of beer) and have helped ranchers fix fences, doze washouts etc etc.

You really are a bundle of hatred and spew. Interesting. As for your
building and maintaining a road thats not yours. Good for you. Civic
duty and all that. Bravo. Must suck to see all that hard work ruined.
Im sure it simply ****es you off not to be able to brag to others
about how hard you work and how good your lawn..er road looks. As for
the deer being "cleared out"..take that up with your fish and game
folks..who most likely will smile, nod, tell you they will take it
under advisement, and as you leave..will look at each other while
making circular finger movements at temple level.
Sometime shortly after hunting season is over, the deer will come back
out of hiding, and life will go on.

Or..hummm are you simply blowing hot air out your butt? Again.

Ah yes, the same attitude that's made me so sympathetic. What the hell,
you're living your reward, which seems about right. Likewise, our local
hunters are being rewarded for their attitude - tales of trash,
trespassing, shooting up signs, leaving gates open, cutting locks etc.
hardly started with me. Even though forty-acre parcels leave the land
largely open, owners are putting up no-hunting signs faster than ever.
Check out the future of hunting around here http://tinyurl.com/3dk3t,
fresh off the pages of Cabelas catalog.


If indeed you have a high percentage of slob hunters..then they indeed
need to be locked out. They should not be tolerated in any shape or
form, as they give the rest of us a bad name. Fortunately they are
generally few in numbers and the rest of us tend to drop a dime on
them.

As for you link to the Playstation hunting game..I guess this is the
future of air travel:
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/sim/ener...s_2873255.html
Space travel
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/al...ter/index.html
Warfare (if it were only true...sigh)
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/...orm/index.html

Now take your zolof, and a deep breath, and cool off.

Gunner

Wayne



"As physicists now know, there is some nonzero probability that any object will,
through quantum effects, tunnel from the workbench in your shop to Floyds Knobs,
Indiana (unless your shop is already in Indiana, in which case the object will
tunnel to Trotters, North Dakota).
The smaller mass of the object, the higher the probability.
Therefore, disassembled parts, particularly small ones,
of machines disappear much faster than assembled machines."
Greg Dermer: rec.crafts.metalworking

Gunner wrote:

Clueless? I asked a simple question. Was it the local kids or the
hunters. Simple.

Oh please. Once you've yakked about "blowing smoke out your ass", "off
your meds", etc., it's a bit late to claim that your intentions are
misunderstood.

Sometime shortly after hunting season is over, the deer will come back
out of hiding, and life will go on.

You see, that's what I like about Usenet.... we're talking about a
decades-long decline in local deer numbers. Even the tag-funded G&F
recognize that, and have whittled the hunt down to
antlered-buck/archery-only. Next step is issuing tags for
slingshot-only. If we wanted knowledgeable and unbiased opinions on the
cause of the decline, we could undertake time-consuming studies.
Fortunately there's no need to wait for those, because it's Gummer's
Know-it-all Denial and Propaganda Posting Service to the rescue, racing
to within 500 miles of the scene, and pencil-whipping the truth in hours
free of charge - that the deer are just hiding. Only thing left to know
is whether they're hiding with Jimmy Hoffa, or with those mischievous
salmon.

As for you link to the Playstation hunting game..I guess this is the
future of air travel:
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/sim/ener...s_2873255.html

Nice try, but airspace is being made off-limits at a much slower rate
here than dirt for hunting. Consider this - on our road alone, the
private property signed no-hunting comprises two sections (so far), and
is the only practical access to about four more sections. That's close
to 4,000 acres in only a few years. I'd guess another 50 sections nearby
have either gone the same way already, or will in the next two decades.
That's another 32,000 acres in my neighborhood. Hundreds more sections
in this county have been chopped up for residential lots, and you're
dreaming if you think that all that property will stay available for
hunting. This march of homes is probably unique to AZ, and I can
understand how it might be news to you in CA. snorf It's true that
locals here will always be able to hunt for real... just not anywhere
near their own area.

Wayne

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 15:24:50 GMT, "wmbjk" wrote:

Gunner wrote:

Clueless? I asked a simple question. Was it the local kids or the
hunters. Simple.

Oh please. Once you've yakked about "blowing smoke out your ass", "off
your meds", etc., it's a bit late to claim that your intentions are
misunderstood.

How I handle a post is largely dependant on the attitude of the
person Im responding to. In your case, overt hostility gets responded
to in like fashion.

Sometime shortly after hunting season is over, the deer will come back
out of hiding, and life will go on.

You see, that's what I like about Usenet.... we're talking about a
decades-long decline in local deer numbers. Even the tag-funded G&F
recognize that, and have whittled the hunt down to
antlered-buck/archery-only. Next step is issuing tags for
slingshot-only. If we wanted knowledgeable and unbiased opinions on the
cause of the decline, we could undertake time-consuming studies.
Fortunately there's no need to wait for those, because it's Gummer's
Know-it-all Denial and Propaganda Posting Service to the rescue, racing
to within 500 miles of the scene, and pencil-whipping the truth in hours
free of charge - that the deer are just hiding. Only thing left to know
is whether they're hiding with Jimmy Hoffa, or with those mischievous
salmon.

So you are claiming then, that yours is one of the very few places
that deer populations are declining? Cites if you would.


As for you link to the Playstation hunting game..I guess this is the
future of air travel:
http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/sim/ener...s_2873255.html

Nice try, but airspace is being made off-limits at a much slower rate
here than dirt for hunting. Consider this - on our road alone, the
private property signed no-hunting comprises two sections (so far), and
is the only practical access to about four more sections. That's close
to 4,000 acres in only a few years. I'd guess another 50 sections nearby
have either gone the same way already, or will in the next two decades.
That's another 32,000 acres in my neighborhood. Hundreds more sections
in this county have been chopped up for residential lots, and you're
dreaming if you think that all that property will stay available for
hunting. This march of homes is probably unique to AZ, and I can
understand how it might be news to you in CA. snorf It's true that
locals here will always be able to hunt for real... just not anywhere
near their own area.


So which is it? Urban sprawl or folks posting no hunting because of
slob hunters? I do wish you would make up your mind. Such as it is.

Since all the no hunting signs are going up..expect a dramatic
increase in the deer population. See..your problem is solved and you
will shortly be asshole deep in deer.

Gunner

Wayne



"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

Gunner wrote:


So you are claiming then, that yours is one of the very few places
that deer populations are declining? Cites if you would.

It's not a claim, and it's not "very few places". Why do you ask for
cites *after* you made up your mind and ridiculed the local information
offered? Well here ya' go anyway - declining populations in your own
state and all across the southwest. From
http://www.nationalreview.com/swan/swan050602.asp

****************Out west, however, there's the mule deer (odocoileus
hemionus), and its subspecies the blacktail. Unlike their eastern
relatives, mule deer and blacktails are on the decline. In California,
in the late 1950s, there were two million mule and blacktail deer.
Today, California Fish and Game estimates that there are but 600,000. A
similar pattern can be found through the mule deer's range in Idaho,
Wyoming, Nevada, Washington, Utah, Montana, Arizona, and Colorado.
**********

Just think how old they'll be when they finally come out of hiding! Keep
in mind that these are overall numbers, and that things can be even
worse in areas with the most development and accessible hunting areas.
http://tinyurl.com/3ftmv
(http://www.usgs.nau.edu/proceedings/...ing_mule%20dee
r.pdf) http://www.azdeer.org/why_name_change.htm
http://www.muledeernet.org/AZtrends.htm

Wayne

Gunner wrote:


snip
Wayne




"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated." - Trefor Thomas

There will be bumper crops in the western states. The trees were overgrown
and this inhibits deer herding and propagation. This has been known since
the days of the pioneer.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder