"Ed Huntress" wrote in message t...
"Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" writes:

But it IS, Tom [note: this was to another Tom, not me], if you start
from a much higher base. In the case of the US versus China, 3.1% is
actually three times more growth than 8.2%.

This topic is a lot more complicated than the two of you make it out
to be.

Of course it is. I spent the last year of my life researching it and writing
a couple of lengthy magazine articles about it.

However, economic growth measured as money is not something
economists tend to care much about.

I beg your pardon, Tom, but it is *indeed* something economists care much
about.

It depends upon what the economist is thinking about. If he's projecting
long-term economic growth, he's more interested in rates of growth. If he's
looking at the current world economy and what is influencing it, he has
little interest in percentage rates of growth. He's looking at current
patterns of production and consumption, wealth generated over a
contemporaneous span of time, exports and imports, and so on.

To use your country, the US, and China as examples, China absorbs roughly
1.1% of your exports, while the US absorbs 7.7% (2001 figures, which are the
latest I have). So every 1% rate of growth in the US economy has seven times
the effect on YOUR economy as a 1% growth in China's economy. That 3.1% we
grew last year represents roughly three times as much effect on YOUR economy
as China's 8.2% (a more likely figure than China's claimed 9.1%). This is a
simplification, of course, but any measure you apply to it produces the same
pattern, whether you base it on the total size of our economies, the
per-capita figures, our total volume of exports and imports, or whatever.
You always get roughly the same result.

This is why I scoff at Tom's silly "can't keep up" remark. To the world
economy as a whole, the important issue about one country's economy is how m
uch actual growth or shrinkage occurs in the factors that have an *external*
effect. What it may represent internally, as a *rate* of growth in
percentage terms, is all but irrelevant. Its relevance is in long-term
trends but not in current accounts. And, of course, it matters domestically,
to China itself.

Rates of growth are what matter
in the long run -- a rich country in stagnation is in a much worse
situation than a poor country experiencing rapid growth. The USA is
certainly the largest, single economy in the world, and it experiences
healthy growth these days (although there are worrying aspects too,
such as the lag in the job market, the budget deficit, and the ugly
average savings/earnings ratio).

Well, your last comment suggests that you're looking at the US economy
through a European filter. In fact, what you identify as "ugly" may be an
important factor in why Japan's economy has been stalled for so long, and
why Germany keeps slipping back a half-step for every step they take
forward. Large economies may need very high rates of consumption, and heavy
reliance upon international capital flows as opposed to domestic savings, in
order to produce the kind of leading growth that the US economy usually
provides to the world as a whole, when it's been in a slump. From one fairly
angular perspective, domestic saving is a market distortion to international
flows of capital -- recent months of foreign investment figures in the US
providing evidence of the possibility. And it's questionable what harm low
savings rates actually do to a dominant economy.

Many world economists are worried about the US's current accounts, including
some prominent ones of our own (I'm currently reading _In An Uncertain
World_ by Robert Rubin, one of our most respected economists, and *he's*
certainly worried about it). My own background in economics is fairly
traditional and conservative and I'm worried about it, too.

But many prominent economists disagree. There is the cautionary tale of the
US in the early '80s and again in the mid-to-late '90s. Actual growth
completely swamped negative positions in our current accounts on both
occassions, in flat contradiction to what traditional economics said was
possible. When anyone tells me they have the answer to this, my response is
skeptical. I don't think that anyone knows.

However, China's economy is growing
at an incredible rate, and looks poised to take over, within a few
decades, America's role as primary engine of the world economy.

Very possibly. However, looked at from a current perspective, China's growth
is the growth of a plant just beginning to bear noticeable amounts of fruit,
compared to the production of a mature plant. A 10% rise in their tomato
production isn't going to give you enough tomato juice to make a difference.
g

There
are downsides in China too, of course, and a lot rides on the ability
of the administration to complete the controlled transition of the
country into a capitalist democracy.


let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a capitalist
democracy. NEVER. They do not intend to be and they will not be. Capi-
talist democracies are invariably FAILURES. China intends to be around
for another couple thousand years, if possible. If they don't burn the
place down first ... jesus christ, MORE fireworks. I thought we were
finished with that last night.



The reason I'm interested in the next five years is that China is about to
run into a brick wall with its exports. Europe and Japan will never stand
for the kind of wrenching, dislocating effect of $100+ billion trade
deficits the US is experiencing now.

Makes you wonder why the US did ....

The question is what China will do when
its mercantilist economy has to make the transition to one that depends on
domestic consumption to sustain growth.

Domestic consumption must be pretty big now, Ed ... i dunno, if you go
into the stores there sure is a lot of **** to buy and people seem to
be buying it. Don't know what the numbers are - probably no one does -
but we're not really lacking for anything around here. Except maybe a
decent pizza.

Projecting the growth in China's
current domestic consumption is not valid; much of that growth is based on
deficit spending of their import profits, as Hamei points out in another
message in this thread. When that can no longer be counted on to supply
sufficient growth, China's economy will experience its moment of truth.


One doesn't like to assign superhuman attributes to the Chinese
planners - they have made some pretty big blunders, after all - but ...
well, they seem to be putting the profits back into the company rather
than ****ing it away, which sounds good to me. We'll see ... or someone
will,. it'll probably be too late for me. Judging from history tho,
China's gonna whip the United States' butt. Then what ? Does t George
III bring out the troops and atomic weapons ? What happens when a country
has nothing to offer except a strong military coupled to a fascist busy-
body populace ? Rome, anyone ?

On 21 Jan 2004 23:51:15 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..


Which would you rather have, Tom, $4,000 * 1.09 or $40,000 *
1.03? It shouldn't be too hard to figure out, even for you.

If taking the $40,000 means one has to live in that ********
called the United States, then the $4,000 is a better deal.

It's an arithmetic question. Can you answer it, or not?

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

On 21 Jan 2004 23:47:54 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message .net...
"Tom" wrote in message
...


Alright Ed, next time someone offers you a raise, shoot for 3%,
cos that's better than 9...:-)

If they offer me 3% of $34,000, versus 9% of $4,000, as with the US versus
China, I certainly will take the 3% of $34,000. It's an old mathematician's
trick. d8-)


I took the 9% of $4,000 and I'm happy. If you'd been here the other
night you'd know there are things you just can't buy. Freedom, for
one.

Are you referring to freedom in the People's Republic? If
so, you are one confused fellow.

Human relationships, for another.

We have human relationship in the U.S. Why would you think
we don't?

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Ed Huntress wrote:

"Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" writes:

But it IS, Tom [note: this was to another Tom, not me], if you start
from a much higher base. In the case of the US versus China, 3.1% is
actually three times more growth than 8.2%.

This topic is a lot more complicated than the two of you make it out
to be.

Of course it is. I spent the last year of my life researching it and writing
a couple of lengthy magazine articles about it.



http://www.machiningmagazine.com/China.pdf



--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...


let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a capitalist
democracy. NEVER. They do not intend to be and they will not be.

Yeah? I hear you, but China's economic pressures are going to be bigger than
you or the Chinese government could possibly contain.

It's just too big, with too many weird features and too many unknowns, for
anyone to be able to predict.

Right now their unemployment is so high (25%), their underemployment in
government-owned plants is so high (another 25%) and their productivity
sucks so very, very bad (it's 1/15 that of the US), that there's no way
anyone can predict how they'll get from where they are to where they're
going to wind up. There is no precedent, especially because the country
itself is so large, and will dominate markets to a degree never seen before.

Capitalist democracies are invariably FAILURES.

So are command-and-control socialist economies. In fact, the former seem to
last around four times longer than the latter.


The reason I'm interested in the next five years is that China is about
to
run into a brick wall with its exports. Europe and Japan will never
stand
for the kind of wrenching, dislocating effect of $100+ billion trade
deficits the US is experiencing now.

Makes you wonder why the US did ....

No choice, really.


The question is what China will do when
its mercantilist economy has to make the transition to one that depends
on
domestic consumption to sustain growth.

Domestic consumption must be pretty big now, Ed ... i dunno, if you go
into the stores there sure is a lot of **** to buy and people seem to
be buying it. Don't know what the numbers are - probably no one does -
but we're not really lacking for anything around here. Except maybe a
decent pizza.

Try it around 100 miles to the west of where you are. Those people are going
to have to buy stuff, too, if China is going to be able to fuel itself with
domestic consumption.

One doesn't like to assign superhuman attributes to the Chinese
planners - they have made some pretty big blunders, after all - but ...
well, they seem to be putting the profits back into the company rather
than ****ing it away, which sounds good to me.

They have little choice. They simply can't keep up their rate of growth
unless they build up their infrastructure. Their economic officials are very
open and blunt about it.

We'll see ... or someone
will,. it'll probably be too late for me. Judging from history tho,
China's gonna whip the United States' butt. Then what ? Does t George
III bring out the troops and atomic weapons ? What happens when a country
has nothing to offer except a strong military coupled to a fascist busy-
body populace ? Rome, anyone ?

Wrong analogy. It will be interesting, but there is nothing in history to
draw from.

--
Ed Huntress
(remove "3" from email address for email reply)

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

On 21 Jan 2004 23:47:54 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:


Human relationships, for another.


We have human relationship in the U.S. Why would you think
we don't?


Running dog lackeys?

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 19:43:25 +0000, Guido wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote:

On 21 Jan 2004 23:47:54 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:


Human relationships, for another.


We have human relationship in the U.S. Why would you think
we don't?


Running dog lackeys?

Chuckle. I am *not* a running dog lackey. ;o)
Sue

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 21:57:07 -0500, Tom Quackenbush
wrote:

Sue wrote:
Guido wrote:

Running dog lackeys?

Chuckle. I am *not* a running dog lackey. ;o)

I know what you mean. I quit running two years ago. Getting old
sucks. g

I quit running, um, er....... actually, probably right after the last
PE class I took. Hmmm. Perhaps during the Johnson administration
(not Andrew).
Sue

R,
Tom Q.

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..
On 21 Jan 2004 23:47:54 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:



I took the 9% of $4,000 and I'm happy. If you'd been here the other
night you'd know there are things you just can't buy. Freedom, for
one.

Are you referring to freedom in the People's Republic? If
so, you are one confused fellow.


No, dear. I'm the one who lives here and has at least half an
idea of what he's talking about. You, on the other hand ....


Human relationships, for another.

We have human relationship in the U.S. Why would you think
we don't?


Because I lived there for oh-too-many years.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message t...

Oh, Hamei, don't be silly. Conner defended with the catamaran because
Michael Fay was trying to exploit an ancient quirk in the rules by
challenging with a 128-foot boat against 12-meter yachts that had less than
60 feet on the waterline.



You occasionally exhibit a slight NY bias in your thinking, Ed :-)
Dennis Conner is not a nice man. Nor is the NYYC a nice yacht club.
Tom Blackaller, now *there* was a sportsman, but .... anyway. The
kiwis were no worse than the New Yawkahs in America's Cup behaviour.

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
...

What *really* stands out tho is that even if you only earn a pittance
in China, there is a place for you to live. You aren't dirt.

What's happening here is that you're talking about what you don't like about
the US lifestyle, when the subject is material wealth.

Lifestyle is a matter of personal likes and dislikes. Material wealth is a
matter of numbers. The numbers aren't subject to argument, and you know
where the numbers are.

As for my own opinion about lifestyle and feeling good about where you
are -- though you didn't ask g -- it's pretty much a matter of what you
make of it. The arguments about it are interesting and sometimes amusing.
But they don't mean a lot to me.

I'm sure I'd find a lot to like about China. I found a lot to like about
most places I've lived, although some of them were better enjoyed as
vacations than as living.

The key to me is what your "home" is. I happen to like this one quite a lot,
mostly because of the things I value. There is no other place that I would
consider my center, my home, even if I left the place and lived somewhere
else for years at a time.

Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message et...
"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...


let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a capitalist
democracy. NEVER. They do not intend to be and they will not be.

Yeah? I hear you, but China's economic pressures are going to be bigger than
you or the Chinese government could possibly contain.


It's not me or the government. It's the culture. China has what works
for them. This has been what worked well for several thousand years,
slightly updated.

What obviously DOESN'T work is when you let Gunner run things. The US
keeps getting things just about straightened out, then some bunch of
robber barons comes along to swindle the rest of the country again
to the applause of your very own mental midgets. Oh, but they have
guns in case the gov't does something bad, like take qaway your freedom !

Jsesus H Krist, whatta crock. If those dorks had guns for that reason,
now is the time to use them but oh no, Georgie is the cat's meow. He's
their man, so what's all that freedom crap good for anyway ? just
encourages more mexicans and ******s to move in next door. Don't
really need freedom, just wanna talk about it.



It's just too big, with too many weird features and too many unknowns, for
anyone to be able to predict.


sure. But between the ability of the Chinese to make things work for
ALL their people and the observed behaviour of Americans, I'll pick
China. That can change, of course, but Chinese people are nowhere near
as mentally retarded as right-wing Americans.


Right now their unemployment is so high (25%), their underemployment in
government-owned plants is so high (another 25%) and their productivity
sucks so very, very bad (it's 1/15 that of the US), that there's no way
anyone can predict how they'll get from where they are to where they're
going to wind up.

can't even predict where they'll wind up, in fact ... but unemployment
and underemployment and lack of productivity aren't necessarily the
problems you make them out to be. As long as people can live on not
very much money, then the lack of a huge income isn't the negative
it is in the US. Just what's so great about "productivity" ? All I
saw it do in the US was make fewer and fewer people do all the work
for less and less money while more and more people sucked off our
labour like leeches. Machinists and factories make the goods that
drive the bus ... but who gets the money ? Lawyers and insurance
compamny execs and stock market shysters. What the **** is so great
about tremendous productivity ? Three people get to do all the work
so that twenty-five can wallow around like pigs in a trough off our
eighteeen-hour-days at ten bucks an hour ? USA can bite me on the
productivity scam. If productivity is so wonderful, tell me why the
US is buying so much stuff from China.


There is no precedent, especially because the country
itself is so large, and will dominate markets to a degree never seen before.


After WW II the US did the same thing ... maybe that's a precedent. Don't
know ... but China is .. China. It's a strange and unusual place.

Capitalist democracies are invariably FAILURES.

So are command-and-control socialist economies. In fact, the former seem to
last around four times longer than the latter.


My ass. China has been around for at least twenty-five hundred years.
What we got now is what we had since slightly after the Warring States
period. When your capitalist democracies get up to ten thousand years,
let me know.



Makes you wonder why the US did ....

No choice, really.


Right, You had no choice because a bunch of greedy donkey-dick-sucking
*******s who don't give a **** about anyone but themselves run your
country. If you had a decent government you wouldn't be in this position.
Europe won't cut their people's throats to make an extra nickel for Sam
Walton. Next biggest problem is that you have voters like Gummer who
have the long-term reasoning powers of a polecat. deTocqueville put his
finger on it 200 years ago - when they figger out they can get into the
cookie jar, it's all over. What is surprising is just HOW strong ideology
is. The proof is all around them yet the Gummers refuse to accept that
the Robber Baron right-wingers are the worst thieves of the bunch. Even
the goddamned Wall Street Journal says so, but ask Gummer or Glen ... :-(



Try it around 100 miles to the west of where you are. Those people are going
to have to buy stuff, too, if China is going to be able to fuel itself with
domestic consumption.


Farthest west I've been is nan ning. It's pretty west ... not as
up-to-date as Shanghai but probably about the same as Huzhou. Plenty
stores, plenty of stuff. Unfortunately, they are building roads to
try to bring tourism to the unspoiled areas :-(

I don't know what else you can do to bring some modern assets to
antique cultures, but making them into a zoo exhibit doesn't seem
so great to me :-( That's not exclusive to China, however. San
Francisco and Sausalito are in the same situation.


One doesn't like to assign superhuman attributes to the Chinese
planners - they have made some pretty big blunders, after all - but ...
well, they seem to be putting the profits back into the company rather
than ****ing it away, which sounds good to me.

They have little choice. They simply can't keep up their rate of growth
unless they build up their infrastructure. Their economic officials are very
open and blunt about it.


Maybe a lack of choice is sometimes good :-) If the US didn't have so
many 'choices' maybe you'd act more responsibly.


What happens when a country
has nothing to offer except a strong military coupled to a fascist busy-
body populace ? Rome, anyone ?

Wrong analogy. It will be interesting, but there is nothing in history to
draw from.

Oh ? I think an analogy with Rome is in many ways quite apt ....
trite, of course, but there are more parallels than divergences ....
oughter be fun to watch for a bit, anyway. As Sinuhe the Egyptian
would say, "We're living in the sunset of the world."

Maybe :-)

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.net...


'Having trouble staying focused are you, Tom? Do you want to continue to
try
to explain how a $330 per capita increase is greater than a $1,064 per
capita increase?

That part is easy. If the cost of living is going down the $330
increase means a better life. If the cost of living is going up,
the $1064 just means you don't go backwards quite so fast.

Inflation has taken off in China. The Economist reports this week that
China's economic ministers are in a panic that they may be in for a repeat
of 1992 - 93, when inflation ran over 20%. They've had to increase the money
supply by 20%/yr. for the past two years, to keep up with foreign demand
(don't ask, it's complicated -- the alternative is to watch their exchange
rate go up in smoke) and they're worried.

Inflation in the US is running a CPI of about 1.9%, which is within the
range that economists consider to be perfect. In other words, the cost of
living is just about dead flat in the US, and has been for the past year.


Would
you like to look at the figures for house prices in Marin County
over the past ten years ? I know, I know ... the US has no meaning-
ful inflation.

That's right, because Marin County, like Westchester County, only tells us
about demographic changes, not economic ones.

This is why the exact same loaf of bread that was
$.89 two years ago is $2.19 now.

I don't know what kind of white bread you been eatin', white boy, but I
haven't seen a loaf of bread sell for $.89 for at least ten years. Maybe in
Marin County.

And the house that my mom sold
in 1970 for $24,000 would cost you a nice round $850,000 or more
today. In 1978 I was charging $60/hour for cnc turning time (I
didn't have a Sheldon, so it was okay :-) Sure, inserts are better
now, but you can *not* make the same part I was doing in 1980 in
ten minutes in two today ... and even if you *could*, there's no
way that would overcome the huge increases in housing, food, health,
and transportation. Oh yeah, I think Kaiser cost something like
$75/month in 1980, too. When I crashed and burned, it cost five
bucks to stay in the hospital for ten days. They didn't cancel me
the day after, either. Then, whether YOU and/or the rest of us dumbo
machinists even SEE that fricking $1064 is another question entirely ...

Wages in manufacturing have been flat for nearly three decades, even though
sales have climbed substantially. Now, if you were a risk arbitrageur, the
trend line would look a lot better...g

Ed Huntress

"Abrasha" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

Of course it is. I spent the last year of my life researching it and
writing
a couple of lengthy magazine articles about it.



http://www.machiningmagazine.com/China.pdf



--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Ok, Abrasha, you can be my PR man. d8-)

Ed Huntress

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
t...

Oh, Hamei, don't be silly. Conner defended with the catamaran because
Michael Fay was trying to exploit an ancient quirk in the rules by
challenging with a 128-foot boat against 12-meter yachts that had less
than
60 feet on the waterline.



You occasionally exhibit a slight NY bias in your thinking, Ed :-)

Now, wait a minute. Are you saying that challenging with a 128-foot boat was
just a little boy's trick? You've probably sailed in IORC regattas. How did
you fare about boats that were twice as long as yours? Cover them, did you?
Luff them up? Did you sail out from under a cover? d8-)

In a 128-foot boat against a 12-meter, *I* could beat Dennis Conner.

Dennis Conner is not a nice man.

In real life, I hear he's not. Not many people that ambitious *are* nice
people. But he kept up the proper appearances over the Big Boat flap. He
didn't say a lot about it for publication.

Nor is the NYYC a nice yacht club.

The word is they're pretty much a bunch of snotty pricks.

Tom Blackaller, now *there* was a sportsman, but .... anyway. The
kiwis were no worse than the New Yawkahs in America's Cup behaviour.

Blackaller, by reputation, Ok. About the kiwis -- or at least Michael Fay
and the big kiwi entourage that supported him -- nonsense, no way, and I
don't think anyone outside of New Zealand agrees with you.

Ed Huntress

On 22 Jan 2004 19:45:03 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..
On 21 Jan 2004 23:47:54 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:



I took the 9% of $4,000 and I'm happy. If you'd been here the other
night you'd know there are things you just can't buy. Freedom, for
one.

Are you referring to freedom in the People's Republic? If
so, you are one confused fellow.


No, dear. I'm the one who lives here and has at least half an
idea of what he's talking about. You, on the other hand ....


Human relationships, for another.

We have human relationship in the U.S. Why would you think
we don't?


Because I lived there for oh-too-many years.

Then we can both be glad you're gone.

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

"Excitable Boy" wrote in message
om...

can't even predict where they'll wind up, in fact ... but unemployment
and underemployment and lack of productivity aren't necessarily the
problems you make them out to be. As long as people can live on not
very much money, then the lack of a huge income isn't the negative
it is in the US. Just what's so great about "productivity" ?...If
productivity is
so wonderful, tell me why the US is buying so much stuff from China.

Because we have the money to buy it, and they don't.

The point is that no country has ever been able to maintain an economic
structure that's a "little bit" based on markets. As far as history has told
us so far, markets are like broncos. You either ride, or you don't.

We won't know for decades to come if China can do it. Their wages now are so
low, and there are so many factors keeping them low, that the most amazingly
screwed-up state of productivity -- about what they have now -- can be
tolerated, and the country can still compete in goods and services. Once
wages go up, that situation always collapses. Witness France. g

Ed Huntress

Excitable Boy wrote:

What obviously DOESN'T work is when you let Gunner run things.

Nobody, lets Gunner, or anybody like him, run things. People like Gunner will
never run things in this country. They get to own a few guns and get to think
they have power, other thatn that, harmless sheep, who've been duped by their
"leaders".

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Then we can both be glad you're gone.

Bob,
Excuse me, Robert.
Cherish your own without begrudging others theirs. You do, and your better
half speaks for you in this instance.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
Portland
www.machiningsolution.com



--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 06:46:48 GMT, "J. R. Carroll"
wrote:




Then we can both be glad you're gone.

Bob,
Excuse me, Robert.
Cherish your own without begrudging others theirs. You do, and your better
half speaks for you in this instance.

Sssshhhh!!! Your post is crossposted to misc.survivalism and nobody
over there is supposed to know which is why I deleted that group in my
previous posts. As I said, I don't want to ruin his reputation with
those folks over there. They'd kinda wonder why someone as
intelligent as he hangs around with an airhead (one of the mildest
things I've been called over there g) such as myself.
BTW if you live in San Francisco do you ever get mistaken for Jon
Carroll the Chronicle columnist. I enjoy reading his stuff except
when he gets political. Fun "cat columns".
Sue Brady, not Sturgeon

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:10:29 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I'd still like to know what Fay was thinking. What kind of a greedy *******
is he, anyway? What does he think he would have won?
Well, having stripped a number of formerly government companies/
dapartments (Air NZ, railways and some others I have forgotten) he
then took his dough and is currently living in Switzerland, leaving
the New Zealand taxpayer to clean up the mess. Given he got many of
these assets *extremely* cheaply, some opinions might be formed about
payoffs, but I couldn't possibly comment.
G

In article , "Ed
Huntress" writes:

Sometimes you're as dumb as a brick, Gunner, and as blind as a bat.
If you
actually heard yourself speak, you'd realize that those two things
alone --
identifying the moral character of people based on their political
views,
and judging someone's understanding based on what part of the country
they
come from -- is as stupid, as arrogant, as self-righteous and as
paranoid as
anything you'll see on this NG.

But, Ed, it seems to be the central part of what being "right wing"
is
all about, as far as I can comprehend it.

True, there seem to be a lot of guns, copied spew and bluster
involved
too but ....
--
Cliff

"geoff merryweather" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 12:10:29 GMT, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

I'd still like to know what Fay was thinking. What kind of a greedy
*******
is he, anyway? What does he think he would have won?
Well, having stripped a number of formerly government companies/
dapartments (Air NZ, railways and some others I have forgotten) he
then took his dough and is currently living in Switzerland, leaving
the New Zealand taxpayer to clean up the mess. Given he got many of
these assets *extremely* cheaply, some opinions might be formed about
payoffs, but I couldn't possibly comment.
G

Aha! The greedy ******* applied his principles to more than yachting, I see.
g

Some days when I hear about what the very rich are doing to the rest of us,
I feel like Hamei must feel all the time.

Ed Huntress

(Excitable Boy) writes:

let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a
capitalist democracy. NEVER. They do not intend to be and they will
not be.

I probably shouldn't have written "capitalist democracy". Could you
agree with me that China is transitioning into a democracy embracing
a western style market economy, where private enterprise will be the
driving force behind the country's growth? And that, so far, the
Chinese administration is doing an admirable job of it, by controlling
the transition process, keeping it slow and smooth?

-tih
--
Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway
www.eunet.no T: +47-22092958 M: +47-93013940 F: +47-22092901

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message t...

Inflation has taken off in China. The Economist reports this week that
China's economic ministers are in a panic that they may be in for a repeat
of 1992 - 93, when inflation ran over 20%. They've had to increase the money
supply by 20%/yr. for the past two years, to keep up with foreign demand
(don't ask, it's complicated -- the alternative is to watch their exchange
rate go up in smoke) and they're worried.

Inflation in the US is running a CPI of about 1.9%, which is within the
range that economists consider to be perfect. In other words, the cost of
living is just about dead flat in the US, and has been for the past year.


Odd that you would say that. As I may have mentioned, just last week
I was getting a hair wash anda happy ending when some bigshot American
economist came on the telly speaking to a large group of Chinese hot-shots.
He made a big point of the fact that inflation here was about 1% and his
biggest concern was with the people displaced by all the moving-to-the-
cities and social change stuff. Wish I'd got his name, but they took me
upstairs before the credits came on ....

All depends on whom you listen to, I guess. I haven't seen any huge
inflation - unlike I did in San Francisco - but ...... you can make
inflation figures say whatever you want by choosing where and what to
pick, ya know ? Housing prices here go *down*, and since housing is
usually the largest part of any family's expenditures ...

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..


Then we can both be glad you're gone.

Yes. One of the nicest things about living here is that there are
no assholes such as yourself surrounding me. And George Pricknose
Bush isn't on television haranguing the crowds very often. All in
all it was well worth the effort to move here and the inconveniences
I have to deal with (such as not speaking chinese worth a ****.)

Yes, now that you mention it, that IS one of the things that makes
me smile while walking to work every morning. I'll add your name to
the list of ****-for-brains I do NOT have to hear from any more.In
fact, it makes me smile right now to think of it :-) Thanks. Don't
come visit.

"J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com...
Then we can both be glad you're gone.

Excuse me, Robert.
Cherish your own without begrudging others theirs. You do, and your better
half speaks for you in this instance.


Thanks John, but really ... it's okay. I am happier and he is
happier. Robert Sturgeon can sit home in the dark stroking his
guns and preparing to meet some unnamed menace for the rest of his
life for all I care. When I lived in California I hated that, but
now that I don't you guys are welcome to the world Mr Sturgeon is
making for you. Everything Adolf Hitler stoof for is right there ...
hope you like the results. As for me, I'm so happy to not have that
sewage in my life that it really doesn't matter what he says or thinks.

This morning everyone was out, walking over to the relatives' or some-
thing, carrying boxes of oranges (some from California) ... lots of the
kids throwing those things that go BANG ! when they hit the ground. Not
one person said, "oh, that's so DANGEROUS ! What if little johnny blew
his hand off ?" We all walk across the street against the red lights
and live. You should have seen the fireworks the other night. People
either like you or dislike you, but they don't do it on the basis of
whether you're a spit Liberal or not. And nobody feels naked without
their precious guns. Thanks for the thoughts John, but he can keep his
beloved hate-filled Amerika along with that closet full of brown shirts.

"Ed Huntress" writes:

http://www.machiningmagazine.com/China.pdf

Great article, Ed! I've downloaded the others as well, and am looking
forward to reading them. Highly recommended reading, folks!

-tih
--
Tom Ivar Helbekkmo, Senior System Administrator, EUnet Norway
www.eunet.no T: +47-22092958 M: +47-93013940 F: +47-22092901

"Tom Ivar Helbekkmo" wrote in message
...
"Ed Huntress" writes:

http://www.machiningmagazine.com/China.pdf

Great article, Ed! I've downloaded the others as well, and am looking
forward to reading them. Highly recommended reading, folks!

Thanks, Tom. 'Glad you enjoyed it. Of the four articles on that site, I
wrote three of them, including the one without a byline. The fourth one,
about Representative Phil English's trade proposal, was written by David
Smith.

Ed Huntress

Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote in message ...
(Excitable Boy) writes:

let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a
capitalist democracy.

I probably shouldn't have written "capitalist democracy". Could you
agree with me that China is transitioning into a democracy embracing
a western style market economy, where private enterprise will be the
driving force behind the country's growth?

No, that's not really correct. At least not in the way that I
understand
the words 'democracy' or 'market economy', anyway. First, they are
never
going to be a "democracy." That's not what Chinese people want. Chinee
people have traditionally wanted an *effective* government. They don't
feel any great need to be voting or spouting off on politics. Almost
never
does anyone show much interest in those kinds of things.

They DO demand that their lives get better and that things are run as
well as they can be (more or less. You know the expression "chinese
fire drill" ?). This government has been democratic in the sense
that the representatives represent their province or areas as much as
American representatives do, I guess. They do listen to the people and
have mechanisms for soliciting people's views, but not in the way that
Americans would describe as "democracy." Pretty similar to the
traditional
Chinese government, imo. Is that a democracy ? I don't think so. Do
they
listen to the populace ? of course. All governments do and always
have.
They HAVE to, or eventually be overthrown. Naive people like to point
fingers at monarchies or dictatorships or whatever but the truth is,
if
the people don't go along with the program ain't NO government that
can
last forever.

As for the "market economy" ... well, this is just a personal view
but I think what they want to do is let the "market" take care of the
small things while the government controls the big directions. Let
the government decide the country's priorities but no reason to try
to control every aspect of the economy. That was tried and proved
impractical. It is unlikely that China will ever become the laissez-
faire free-for-all that the US is ... or if it does, it will once
again implode. The Chinese government isn't stupid. They've read
history, they remember landlords, they know what happens with uncon-
trolled "capitalism" - it sucks the lifeblood out of the entire
country.
Stomach acid is good in the stomach, but when used for blood it's not
at all the thing, yeah ? Capitalism is great for small things, like
corner grocery stores. It's absolutely **** for determining a nation's
priorities because obviously the priorities of making money and
providing
for a nation's people are entirely different things. All this is
simply
common sense, but Amerika appears to lack that vital ingreedient these
days :-(


And that, so far, the
Chinese administration is doing an admirable job of it, by controlling
the transition process, keeping it slow and smooth?



Well, lots of things they do are bonkers but overall they're trying.
That's more than I can say for the Republican Congress of the United
States - or the fool Democrats, for that matter. The US seems to be
totally lost these days, not an idea in the place about what the plan
is or even what would BE a good plan. Comes from making Money your
God,
I suppose.

On 23 Jan 2004 07:59:45 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:

Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote in message ...
(Excitable Boy) writes:

let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a
capitalist democracy.

I probably shouldn't have written "capitalist democracy". Could you
agree with me that China is transitioning into a democracy embracing
a western style market economy, where private enterprise will be the
driving force behind the country's growth?

No, that's not really correct. At least not in the way that I
understand
the words 'democracy' or 'market economy', anyway. First, they are
never
going to be a "democracy." That's not what Chinese people want.

If they aren't allowed to participate in political
activities and free elections, how can you or anyone else
know what they want? They aren't allowed to publicly
advocate anything other than the political status quo. They
aren't allowed to follow any religions other than the ones
with government permission to practice. They aren't allowed
to form political parties. They aren't allowed to publicly
dissent from the government's official "line." I suppose
that is all peachy keen for control freaks.

I can see why you were so uncomfortable living in a
relatively free country like the U.S.

(rest snipped)

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Excitable Boy wrote:

This morning everyone was out, walking over to the relatives' or some-
thing, carrying boxes of oranges (some from California) ... lots of the
kids throwing those things that go BANG !

That reminds me ... Gung Ho Fat Boy!

Many years ago, to my embarrassment, a friend of mine said that once to an older
Chinese merchant in China town. The man did not get the "joke", he did not
smile.

Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..

If they aren't allowed to participate in political
activities and free elections, how can you or anyone else
know what they want? They aren't allowed to publicly
advocate anything other than the political status quo. They
aren't allowed to follow any religions other than the ones
with government permission to practice. They aren't allowed
to form political parties. They aren't allowed to publicly
dissent from the government's official "line." I suppose
that is all peachy keen for control freaks.


Proof that too much Reader's Digest rots the brain ...


I can see why you were so uncomfortable living in a
relatively free country like the U.S.


You wouldn't know freedom if it rose up out of the grunter
and took a big chomp out of your ass. I am easily 100 times
more free than you. Nya na na na naaa na.

Abrasha wrote in message ...


That reminds me ... Gung Ho Fat Boy!


thanks ! up here we do 'xin nian hao' but same-o same-o.
Actually, that's only half the saying, but I don't do
guangzhou speech so I can't tell you the other half.


Many years ago, to my embarrassment, a friend of mine said that once to an older
Chinese merchant in China town. The man did not get the "joke", he did not
smile.


I just told it to a girl in Hong Kong, she laughed for ten minutes.
You guys have no sense of humour. Just took a look at SFGate ...
sheesh. Everybody there snivelling about how 'unfair it is to say
"Chinese New Year" when the rest of the Asians cultures celebrate
too' blablabla. Over here we just party. Maybe too hard ... i was
afraid they were gonna burn down the city the other night. Xin nian
hao to you, too, Abrasha.

On 23 Jan 2004 21:26:37 -0800, (Excitable
Boy) wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..

If they aren't allowed to participate in political
activities and free elections, how can you or anyone else
know what they want? They aren't allowed to publicly
advocate anything other than the political status quo. They
aren't allowed to follow any religions other than the ones
with government permission to practice. They aren't allowed
to form political parties. They aren't allowed to publicly
dissent from the government's official "line." I suppose
that is all peachy keen for control freaks.

Proof that too much Reader's Digest rots the brain ...

So the mainland Chinese ARE allowed to participate in free
elections? How do you expect the Fulan Gong Party to do
next year? The Christian Democrats? The Libertarians?

Go to the churches of their choice? No. Speak out against
the government? Only once.

No political freedom there. They are developing a bit of
economic freedom, so long as they don't try it on a
political level. Very similar situation to Franco's Spain.
But they can't get to a high enough level of economic
freedom to sustain their growth rate without also developing
political freedom, just like Spain and Portugal did. The
world info economy requires individual and political freedom
for its successful participants. The mainland Chinese can't
get there without some extreme changes. You aren't going to
like them. ;-)

One way or the other, the Chinese Communist Party is going
to fail - either not enough economic growth to sustain them,
or too much political freedom to keep their monopoly of
political power. It'll be interesting to see which way it
goes. I'm only sorry I probably won't live long enough to
see it.

I do appreciate having lived to see the death of that other
Evil Empire.

I can see why you were so uncomfortable living in a
relatively free country like the U.S.

You wouldn't know freedom if it rose up out of the grunter
and took a big chomp out of your ass. I am easily 100 times
more free than you. Nya na na na naaa na.

You obviously do not have a firm grasp on reality.

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:00:22 GMT, strabo
wrote:

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 11:17:38 +0100, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo
wrote:

(Excitable Boy) writes:

let's get one thing straight - China is NEVER going to be a
capitalist democracy. NEVER. They do not intend to be and they will
not be.

I probably shouldn't have written "capitalist democracy". Could you
agree with me that China is transitioning into a democracy embracing
a western style market economy, where private enterprise will be the
driving force behind the country's growth? And that, so far, the
Chinese administration is doing an admirable job of it, by controlling
the transition process, keeping it slow and smooth?

And why should anyone expect the Chinese ruling class, largely
comprised of military leaders, give up a power which is absolute?

They won't - at least not voluntarily.

--
Robert Sturgeon,
proud member of the vast right wing conspiracy
and the evil gun culture.

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:00:22 GMT, strabo
wrote:


And why should anyone expect the Chinese ruling class, largely
comprised of military leaders, give up a power which is absolute?

They won't - at least not voluntarily.



I was mistaken ... you guys don't read Reader's Digest. You aren't
that smart and the pages are too small for the big pictures you'd
need.for coloring Do they make some kind of mechanism that takes
care of breathing for you ? Because there's obviously not enough
between your ears to even take care of that minimal function. There's
just about nothing to say when faced with such appalling ignorance.

Let's put this into really really small words so that even you two
might have a chance to get it : I LIVE HERE, you morons. You are out
of your rabbit-ass fricking minds. Neither one of you has 1/100th of
a clue as to what China is like. No, let's get accurate : 1/1000000th
of a klew. Christ, you are stewpid.

On 24 Jan 2004 03:08:07 -0800, (Excitable Boy)
wrote:

Robert Sturgeon wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 06:00:22 GMT, strabo
wrote:


And why should anyone expect the Chinese ruling class, largely
comprised of military leaders, give up a power which is absolute?

They won't - at least not voluntarily.



I was mistaken ... you guys don't read Reader's Digest. You aren't
that smart and the pages are too small for the big pictures you'd
need.for coloring Do they make some kind of mechanism that takes
care of breathing for you ? Because there's obviously not enough
between your ears to even take care of that minimal function. There's
just about nothing to say when faced with such appalling ignorance.

Let's put this into really really small words so that even you two
might have a chance to get it : I LIVE HERE, you morons. You are out
of your rabbit-ass fricking minds. Neither one of you has 1/100th of
a clue as to what China is like. No, let's get accurate : 1/1000000th
of a klew. Christ, you are stewpid.

Hmmm. I do Hamei. Have a clue. Been there. Altho it's been 14 - 15
years ago.

And have friends who've been there recently, past couple years.
Friends who do speak Chinese well, as they were born in Hong Kong.

I haven't been following this debate you're having with Robert and
others. Couldn't care less about these mutual flaming parties.

But I did bother to read a couple posts in this thread at random.
Just to see if there was anything in the thread of interest to me.
There isn't. Except your comments on China perked my curiosity.

I am not one who would bash China, or the Chinese. Far from it. Tho I
have issues with their government. However, things you've said do not
coincide with what I know from personal experience, with what's been
told to me by folks who've been there in the recent past, nor with
current news reports by a whole friggin variety of sources, not just
US ones.

So, curiosity perked, I did a little checking.

One of the curious things I've noted just looking a random samplings
of your posts is that the time stamping on most I looked at, in
relation to times when it appeared that you responded relatively soon
to another post ... seems to indicate you live somewhere in the
continental US. Either that or you've invented a way to make an ISP's
servers alter their time stamps just for you, personally.

At a guess, just mentally noting time stamps of several randomly
picked posts, if asked ... it'd seem to me you were somewhere in or
around California. Taking into account normal human living patterns.
i.e. Times in the day you most folks would be at work ... not posting,
evening times when folks do most of their posting. Late Friday
nights/early Saturday morning postings. And so forth.

I notice things like time stamps almost automatically. Having spent a
career in the Navy and having to, on many an occassion, be juggling
different time zones in my head. It sortta becomes habit. Like,
"Hmmm ... it's noon here, and I'm in Taiwan, what's a good local time
for me to call my wife so I'm likely to catch her home, and still
awake?"

Anyway, somewhere around California appeared right. And that did jive
with the "pacbell" part of your email addy.

I was then curious, Hmmmm, PacBell does ISP in China? Not last I'd
heard. So I checked.

http://www.internetnews.com/stats/article.php/3299861

Excerpted from above"

"China had 79.5 million Web surfers at the end of 2003, a report by
the China Internet Network Information Center (CNNIC) out of Beijing
stated Thursday. "

"While 79.5 million would be a significant number in most countries,
it's a mere six percent of China's total population of 1.28 billion.
In the U.S., Web surfers make up 57 percent of the total population of
290.34 million. "

"China has only three Internet service providers (ISPs) -- ChinaLink
Networks, Netaway and VPM Internet Services, Inc. --"

Hmmm. That info is from official Chinese sources themselves. And it
jives with other sources of info I'm familiar with. I'm far from
wealthy, but do have a small amount of money invested in some stocks
which cause me to keep track on who is setting up new lines, services,
and so forth in the communications world. So someone getting "into"
China is something I follow. Nice big market there. As I say, I'm
far from wealthy, I wouldn't mind having a bit more money. A couple
or a few thousand more might not mean much to the Tim May's of the
world. But it's meaningful money to me.

So, how is it you live in China, but have PacBell as your ISP?

Just curious.

Also curious as to how you seem to communicate so freely back and
forth and seem to roam the Net at will. Since China's government is
pretty well known for blocking a lot of sites and whole ISPs, etc?

An example to read about that subject:
http://www.wayan.net/exp/china/censor.htm

That's just one. Do a Google search using china+censorship+internet
and it'll turn up a whole bunch more examples.

Bob

*** No flame intended, just curious.

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:20:03 -0600, the Bob G
wrote:


One of the curious things I've noted just looking a random samplings
of your posts is that the time stamping on most I looked at, in
relation to times when it appeared that you responded relatively soon
to another post ... seems to indicate you live somewhere in the
continental US. Either that or you've invented a way to make an ISP's
servers alter their time stamps just for you, personally.

Or he's posting from work. Lots of people do that. China (yeah, all of
it, they only have one time zone) is exactly 12 hours different from
here (NYC time) so it's easy for me to keep track.

At a guess, just mentally noting time stamps of several randomly
picked posts, if asked ... it'd seem to me you were somewhere in or
around California. Taking into account normal human living patterns.
i.e. Times in the day you most folks would be at work ... not posting,
evening times when folks do most of their posting. Late Friday
nights/early Saturday morning postings. And so forth.

I notice things like time stamps almost automatically. Having spent a
career in the Navy and having to, on many an occassion, be juggling
different time zones in my head. It sortta becomes habit. Like,
"Hmmm ... it's noon here, and I'm in Taiwan, what's a good local time
for me to call my wife so I'm likely to catch her home, and still
awake?"

Anyway, somewhere around California appeared right. And that did jive
with the "pacbell" part of your email addy.

I was then curious, Hmmmm, PacBell does ISP in China? Not last I'd
heard. So I checked.

Actually, his usenet posts are coming through cn.net in Beijing, China
if you know how to check. Anyone can have their e-mail forwarded from
anywhere to anywhere, n'est-ce pas? Why do you think his e-mail
address is related to his ISP? Mine isn't.

snip

So, how is it you live in China, but have PacBell as your ISP?

Just curious.

Also curious as to how you seem to communicate so freely back and
forth and seem to roam the Net at will. Since China's government is
pretty well known for blocking a lot of sites and whole ISPs, etc?

Pretty much BS. I've used the net from at least a dozen different
places in many different cities in China, and notice nothing blocked.
Google and so on worked fine, including from the telephone company
office. If they are blocking those Falun Da Fa weirdos, wouldnt' miss
them one bit.

I'll leave the relative freedom discussion for another time when I
have time and inclination to argue, too nice (but cold) a day today...

Best regards,
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:53:59 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:20:03 -0600, the Bob G
wrote:


One of the curious things I've noted just looking a random samplings
of your posts is that the time stamping on most I looked at, in
relation to times when it appeared that you responded relatively soon
to another post ... seems to indicate you live somewhere in the
continental US. Either that or you've invented a way to make an ISP's
servers alter their time stamps just for you, personally.

Or he's posting from work. Lots of people do that. China (yeah, all of
it, they only have one time zone) is exactly 12 hours different from
here (NYC time) so it's easy for me to keep track.

Hmmm. Okay ....

I was then curious, Hmmmm, PacBell does ISP in China? Not last I'd
heard. So I checked.

Actually, his usenet posts are coming through cn.net in Beijing, China
if you know how to check. Anyone can have their e-mail forwarded from
anywhere to anywhere, n'est-ce pas? Why do you think his e-mail
address is related to his ISP? Mine isn't.


Not my point, Spehro.

I know more than a little about how the net works, trust me. I'd not
be asking about a simple thing like email addys without a reason.

Also curious as to how you seem to communicate so freely back and
forth and seem to roam the Net at will. Since China's government is
pretty well known for blocking a lot of sites and whole ISPs, etc?

Pretty much BS. I've used the net from at least a dozen different
places in many different cities in China, and notice nothing blocked.
Google and so on worked fine, including from the telephone company
office. If they are blocking those Falun Da Fa weirdos, wouldnt' miss
them one bit.

Hmmm. Okay.

Wasn't my question. Could we stick with my questions?

Spehro, I was trying to determine if Hamei was, in fact, in China.
And, if he was, how he was managing to route his mail thru Pacbell,
and pay them for it as I'd expect they'd like to be paid for it.

China, whether you friggin know it or not, DOES block certain internet
traffic. Not only blocks items, but if one is in China and tries to
put up one's own web site which says things the government does not
approve of, one can end up in prison.

I think you live near New York, why don't you look up a fellow named
Lin Hai. Now a computer scientist and consultant in New York.
Originally from Shanghai. Why don't you just ask him about what
happens to folks who displease the censors in China? He managed to
come to the US after he did a couple years in a Chinese prison. His
crime? He was helping to spread around an internet based newsletter
calling for more freedom and democracy. He was advocating no
violence, no forceful revolution, nada.

The Chinese government does far more than just block Falun Dafa.

The very reason I posted one site with evidence to that fact in my
original response to Hamei. Could've posted a LOT more.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in531567.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2264508.stm

Just another couple of examples.

Myself, I needed no examples. For one, had the word from the horse's
mouth so to speak. The friends I mentioned, who were born in Hong
Kong. Have relatives over on the mainland they still keep track of.
Much easier now than it used to be. To keep in touch. And every once
in a while when they can afford it, nowadays they can take a trip to
China and actually see the relatives. Not often. They say it's been 3
times in the past 10 years. My friends do have their own kids, 2 in
college, so it's not as if they've got a lot of money to making the
trip more often.

Anyway, my friends and my wife and I were talking. And subject came
up about phone calls, regular mail, and the internet as a means of
having more contact.

And my friends say they do that but ....

Well, let's put it this way. The relatives have stuff they absolutely
refuse to say or talk about. In public. And they consider the
phones, regular mail, and internet communications as "public". That
is, being watched and monitored. They're absolutely convinced the
government does at least some monitoring. Certainly, they can not
monitor everything. There simply aren't enough people, money, and
resources to monitor every internet connection, open every letter and
read it, or listen in on every phone call. But the folks who live
there in mainland China ... and I'm not talking about the priviledged
classes, foreign businessmen or consultants, tourists, and the like
.... I'm talking about the ordinary person ... are convinced that there
is at least random monitoring. And that one can go to jail, maybe
worse, if one is caught saying things the government does not approve
of.

That's what my friends' relative say. But only in person, and only
when no one not absolutely trusted is near enough to hear.

I've also heard this from others. And, FWIW, it's also reported
routinely and regularly by members of the press ... from many
countries not just the US, by human rights groups of various sorts,
and so forth. Even the Chinese government themselves officially
acknowledge they do internet monitoring and censorship. Tho they
don't publically acknowledge the extent to which they do it.

"Regulations approved by the state council and released by the
Ministry in Public Security in 1997 say it is illegal to use the
Internet to make, produce, look up, copy or spread information that
harms the prestige of state institutions, subverts state power,
destroys the unity of China, or seeks to overthrow the socialist
system. "

Professor Andrew J Nathan from Columbia University did a study on the
issue. He tapped into China, using various means ... and the advice
of some top hackers ... and then using a database of known "outside"
sites, started to try to access them from "inside" China. And found
that the "rumors" were indeed true. His database was of some 200,000
known active sites. A tiny fraction of all internet sites. But based
on the numbers he found blocked, he worked out the math and estimates
it'd take something like 30,000 "internet police" to be keeping track
of, and blocking the percentage of sites he found them to be blocking.

BTW, this is no big secret. An internet search will show you articles
mentioning the fact that Google, Yahoo, AOL, and others have known
this for years. And routinely counter by changing certain web pages
just enough to avoid the blocking for a while, at least. A money
game, don'tcha know. They have advertisers who want the people of
China to see some of their ads. So Google, Yahoo, etc do what they
need to do to try to foil the censors.

And, of course, so do others. And the reality is, it's a losing
battle on the part of the Chinese government. Simply too many sites,
too many workarounds, and so forth. But they're still trying.

So, anyway. I was curious. If Hamei is who he says he is, and is
where he says he is. And he's managing to link to the outside world
freely, without the censors blocking him, and even use a US based ISP.
Then I wanted to know. I see that as a hopeful sign. Maybe the
Chinese government is loosening up ... or giving up ... on their
internet censorship.

That's why I was quizzing him.

Now, as far as your statements about BS.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I've been to China. A couple
times. Actually, 3.

First time doesn't count as they didn't know I was there. :-) It was
a real short, fast trip, only a little ways into their territory.
There were these fellows who'd ... ummm ... been visiting there, real
sneaky like ... and they needed a ride home. Don't ask, I have no
real clue why they were there. I know nothing. That's my story, and
I'm sticking with it.

The 3rd time I was in China, the last time, just a few days, 4. I was
just an aid/assistant along for the ride on an official trip.

The middle time was in the early 80's. And I was there TAD for 6
months. Why? I was helping set up a special school. No secret spy
stuff or weapons facility or anything like that. At the time we
weren't even "officially" cooperating with the Chinese. But don't
believe everything you read or see on TV. There are almost always
things going on that's not in the news, nor even being publically
spoken about by politicians.

In this case, it was simple. Despite "official" tension between the
two governments at the time, ours and theirs, there were a lot of
unofficial talks, dickering, handshaking, etc. Lots of disagreements,
also. But one of the things the Chinese wanted at the time was some
help with a problem. A particular problem. China had a lot of ships
.... and they sucked. As concerns reliability, maintenance, and so
forth.

Now, actually I don't have a clue as to who came up with the idea
originally. I was WAYYY too far down on the totem pole to ever know
such things. I was just a Navy man. But somebody came up with the
idea. And I was one of the ones chosen to "make it happen". And what
happened was we set up a training program for some of their people,
the Chinese. To teach students how to properly operate and maintain
steam engines, properly do repairs. How to set up a formal
preventative maintenance system. Do scheduled rotation of ships for
major repairs and rework. How to plan the jobs; manpower, materials,
time estimates, etc.

Chuckle, who can figure out politicians, diplomats, and governments?
I sure can't. Here we were at the time "officially" in a guarded and
unfriendly status towards China. Offcially, they were just as cold
and unfriendly towards us. Yet I found myself, along with copies of
all the text books and manuals from the Navy's Engineering School,
lesson plans, lesson topic guides, etc ... plus a bunch of other folks
(I was just one player among several), headed to China to "teach the
teachers".

ROFLMAO !!!

With orders we weren't to tell anyone what was going on, before or
after the trip. It was one of those "it never happened" things.

Ahhh, Geez. When I first got my orders to start the planning and
preps. It was a PIA. All those student text books, manuals and
stuff? Had to be translated. And the only Chinese I knew was enough
to order a beer, food, bed, and pussy. And a few other words best not
said in polite company. Whoever thought of the brilliant plan hadn't
thought of the problem of translating those books. When I mentioned
the issue to the Navy Captain in charge, I got one of those "Make it
happen" orders.

Shrug So I played "dialing for dollars". Making inquiries here and
there. Spent days at it. Finally found the solution. Turns out the
Christians in Action had a fellow who could speak, read, and write 7
dialects of the Chinese language better than the Chinese could. They
(the Chinese) said so when some of their folks met him. Anyway, he
had a whole office load of folks who knew at least the main dialect.
I got my textbooks and manuals translated and reprinted.

It was over a year, between the time we were told "make it happen" and
things actually got going. Things had to be translated and printed.
Plus we had some reps from China in Great Lakes Illinois at the Navy
Engineering School. Some to start learning. Others taking pictures
and notes. Then going back home to set up the physical requirements
of the school. To teach sailors how to operate and fix boilers, steam
turbines, pumps, valves, regulators, pneumatic controls, etc ... yah
actually need the equipment set up. I gathered they already had the
main components in place, were now taking care of the auxiliary
components. And setting up the separate labs for teaching pumps,
copmpressor, valve, governor, etc repair.

Anyway, it was finally done and we went to China.

That's why I said off the bat to Hamei that I had nothing against the
Chinese people themselves. I know better. Nice folks.

But, then, I find most folks I meet anywhere are nice folks. And I've
been a bunch of places.

The thing is, I was treated well, had a great time.

But I also know that the folks I met were of two different sorts.
One, was ... shall we say ... a bit more priviledged and free than the
other. The other didn't complain, smiled a lot. But 6 months gave me
plenty of time to be fully aware that this last group had things they
might like to say ... but weren't gonna. Because they were afraid to.

And I'd been to numerous countries in that part of the world. And
while I enjoyed myself, ate well, drank more than I should have
sometimes, and chased ... and caught my fair share of the ladies. Fact
was, I knew the "average" Chinese person had a far more modest life
style than the folks I was hanging around with.

Bob