On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 15:53:59 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 09:20:03 -0600, the Bob G
wrote:


One of the curious things I've noted just looking a random samplings
of your posts is that the time stamping on most I looked at, in
relation to times when it appeared that you responded relatively soon
to another post ... seems to indicate you live somewhere in the
continental US. Either that or you've invented a way to make an ISP's
servers alter their time stamps just for you, personally.

Or he's posting from work. Lots of people do that. China (yeah, all of
it, they only have one time zone) is exactly 12 hours different from
here (NYC time) so it's easy for me to keep track.

Hmmm. Okay ....

I was then curious, Hmmmm, PacBell does ISP in China? Not last I'd
heard. So I checked.

Actually, his usenet posts are coming through cn.net in Beijing, China
if you know how to check. Anyone can have their e-mail forwarded from
anywhere to anywhere, n'est-ce pas? Why do you think his e-mail
address is related to his ISP? Mine isn't.


Not my point, Spehro.

I know more than a little about how the net works, trust me. I'd not
be asking about a simple thing like email addys without a reason.

Also curious as to how you seem to communicate so freely back and
forth and seem to roam the Net at will. Since China's government is
pretty well known for blocking a lot of sites and whole ISPs, etc?

Pretty much BS. I've used the net from at least a dozen different
places in many different cities in China, and notice nothing blocked.
Google and so on worked fine, including from the telephone company
office. If they are blocking those Falun Da Fa weirdos, wouldnt' miss
them one bit.

Hmmm. Okay.

Wasn't my question. Could we stick with my questions?

Spehro, I was trying to determine if Hamei was, in fact, in China.
And, if he was, how he was managing to route his mail thru Pacbell,
and pay them for it as I'd expect they'd like to be paid for it.

China, whether you friggin know it or not, DOES block certain internet
traffic. Not only blocks items, but if one is in China and tries to
put up one's own web site which says things the government does not
approve of, one can end up in prison.

I think you live near New York, why don't you look up a fellow named
Lin Hai. Now a computer scientist and consultant in New York.
Originally from Shanghai. Why don't you just ask him about what
happens to folks who displease the censors in China? He managed to
come to the US after he did a couple years in a Chinese prison. His
crime? He was helping to spread around an internet based newsletter
calling for more freedom and democracy. He was advocating no
violence, no forceful revolution, nada.

The Chinese government does far more than just block Falun Dafa.

The very reason I posted one site with evidence to that fact in my
original response to Hamei. Could've posted a LOT more.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in531567.shtml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2264508.stm

Just another couple of examples.

Myself, I needed no examples. For one, had the word from the horse's
mouth so to speak. The friends I mentioned, who were born in Hong
Kong. Have relatives over on the mainland they still keep track of.
Much easier now than it used to be. To keep in touch. And every once
in a while when they can afford it, nowadays they can take a trip to
China and actually see the relatives. Not often. They say it's been 3
times in the past 10 years. My friends do have their own kids, 2 in
college, so it's not as if they've got a lot of money to making the
trip more often.

Anyway, my friends and my wife and I were talking. And subject came
up about phone calls, regular mail, and the internet as a means of
having more contact.

And my friends say they do that but ....

Well, let's put it this way. The relatives have stuff they absolutely
refuse to say or talk about. In public. And they consider the
phones, regular mail, and internet communications as "public". That
is, being watched and monitored. They're absolutely convinced the
government does at least some monitoring. Certainly, they can not
monitor everything. There simply aren't enough people, money, and
resources to monitor every internet connection, open every letter and
read it, or listen in on every phone call. But the folks who live
there in mainland China ... and I'm not talking about the priviledged
classes, foreign businessmen or consultants, tourists, and the like
.... I'm talking about the ordinary person ... are convinced that there
is at least random monitoring. And that one can go to jail, maybe
worse, if one is caught saying things the government does not approve
of.

That's what my friends' relative say. But only in person, and only
when no one not absolutely trusted is near enough to hear.

I've also heard this from others. And, FWIW, it's also reported
routinely and regularly by members of the press ... from many
countries not just the US, by human rights groups of various sorts,
and so forth. Even the Chinese government themselves officially
acknowledge they do internet monitoring and censorship. Tho they
don't publically acknowledge the extent to which they do it.

"Regulations approved by the state council and released by the
Ministry in Public Security in 1997 say it is illegal to use the
Internet to make, produce, look up, copy or spread information that
harms the prestige of state institutions, subverts state power,
destroys the unity of China, or seeks to overthrow the socialist
system. "

Professor Andrew J Nathan from Columbia University did a study on the
issue. He tapped into China, using various means ... and the advice
of some top hackers ... and then using a database of known "outside"
sites, started to try to access them from "inside" China. And found
that the "rumors" were indeed true. His database was of some 200,000
known active sites. A tiny fraction of all internet sites. But based
on the numbers he found blocked, he worked out the math and estimates
it'd take something like 30,000 "internet police" to be keeping track
of, and blocking the percentage of sites he found them to be blocking.

BTW, this is no big secret. An internet search will show you articles
mentioning the fact that Google, Yahoo, AOL, and others have known
this for years. And routinely counter by changing certain web pages
just enough to avoid the blocking for a while, at least. A money
game, don'tcha know. They have advertisers who want the people of
China to see some of their ads. So Google, Yahoo, etc do what they
need to do to try to foil the censors.

And, of course, so do others. And the reality is, it's a losing
battle on the part of the Chinese government. Simply too many sites,
too many workarounds, and so forth. But they're still trying.

So, anyway. I was curious. If Hamei is who he says he is, and is
where he says he is. And he's managing to link to the outside world
freely, without the censors blocking him, and even use a US based ISP.
Then I wanted to know. I see that as a hopeful sign. Maybe the
Chinese government is loosening up ... or giving up ... on their
internet censorship.

That's why I was quizzing him.

Now, as far as your statements about BS.

As I mentioned in a previous post, I've been to China. A couple
times. Actually, 3.

First time doesn't count as they didn't know I was there. :-) It was
a real short, fast trip, only a little ways into their territory.
There were these fellows who'd ... ummm ... been visiting there, real
sneaky like ... and they needed a ride home. Don't ask, I have no
real clue why they were there. I know nothing. That's my story, and
I'm sticking with it.

The 3rd time I was in China, the last time, just a few days, 4. I was
just an aid/assistant along for the ride on an official trip.

The middle time was in the early 80's. And I was there TAD for 6
months. Why? I was helping set up a special school. No secret spy
stuff or weapons facility or anything like that. At the time we
weren't even "officially" cooperating with the Chinese. But don't
believe everything you read or see on TV. There are almost always
things going on that's not in the news, nor even being publically
spoken about by politicians.

In this case, it was simple. Despite "official" tension between the
two governments at the time, ours and theirs, there were a lot of
unofficial talks, dickering, handshaking, etc. Lots of disagreements,
also. But one of the things the Chinese wanted at the time was some
help with a problem. A particular problem. China had a lot of ships
.... and they sucked. As concerns reliability, maintenance, and so
forth.

Now, actually I don't have a clue as to who came up with the idea
originally. I was WAYYY too far down on the totem pole to ever know
such things. I was just a Navy man. But somebody came up with the
idea. And I was one of the ones chosen to "make it happen". And what
happened was we set up a training program for some of their people,
the Chinese. To teach students how to properly operate and maintain
steam engines, properly do repairs. How to set up a formal
preventative maintenance system. Do scheduled rotation of ships for
major repairs and rework. How to plan the jobs; manpower, materials,
time estimates, etc.

Chuckle, who can figure out politicians, diplomats, and governments?
I sure can't. Here we were at the time "officially" in a guarded and
unfriendly status towards China. Offcially, they were just as cold
and unfriendly towards us. Yet I found myself, along with copies of
all the text books and manuals from the Navy's Engineering School,
lesson plans, lesson topic guides, etc ... plus a bunch of other folks
(I was just one player among several), headed to China to "teach the
teachers".

ROFLMAO !!!

With orders we weren't to tell anyone what was going on, before or
after the trip. It was one of those "it never happened" things.

Ahhh, Geez. When I first got my orders to start the planning and
preps. It was a PIA. All those student text books, manuals and
stuff? Had to be translated. And the only Chinese I knew was enough
to order a beer, food, bed, and pussy. And a few other words best not
said in polite company. Whoever thought of the brilliant plan hadn't
thought of the problem of translating those books. When I mentioned
the issue to the Navy Captain in charge, I got one of those "Make it
happen" orders.

Shrug So I played "dialing for dollars". Making inquiries here and
there. Spent days at it. Finally found the solution. Turns out the
Christians in Action had a fellow who could speak, read, and write 7
dialects of the Chinese language better than the Chinese could. They
(the Chinese) said so when some of their folks met him. Anyway, he
had a whole office load of folks who knew at least the main dialect.
I got my textbooks and manuals translated and reprinted.

It was over a year, between the time we were told "make it happen" and
things actually got going. Things had to be translated and printed.
Plus we had some reps from China in Great Lakes Illinois at the Navy
Engineering School. Some to start learning. Others taking pictures
and notes. Then going back home to set up the physical requirements
of the school. To teach sailors how to operate and fix boilers, steam
turbines, pumps, valves, regulators, pneumatic controls, etc ... yah
actually need the equipment set up. I gathered they already had the
main components in place, were now taking care of the auxiliary
components. And setting up the separate labs for teaching pumps,
copmpressor, valve, governor, etc repair.

Anyway, it was finally done and we went to China.

That's why I said off the bat to Hamei that I had nothing against the
Chinese people themselves. I know better. Nice folks.

But, then, I find most folks I meet anywhere are nice folks. And I've
been a bunch of places.

The thing is, I was treated well, had a great time.

But I also know that the folks I met were of two different sorts.
One, was ... shall we say ... a bit more priviledged and free than the
other. The other didn't complain, smiled a lot. But 6 months gave me
plenty of time to be fully aware that this last group had things they
might like to say ... but weren't gonna. Because they were afraid to.

And I'd been to numerous countries in that part of the world. And
while I enjoyed myself, ate well, drank more than I should have
sometimes, and chased ... and caught my fair share of the ladies. Fact
was, I knew the "average" Chinese person had a far more modest life
style than the folks I was hanging around with.

Bob