Cliff wrote in news:kipbt1ddk2a8khhvsdqgaeil8ncdtbdchk@
4ax.com:

On 23 Jan 2006 13:25:54 -0800, wrote:

Because he was sophisticated technically and socially we had a lovely
conversation and found we were using many similar terms with different
meanings.

Ask about Aluminum billet motorcycle parts G.

Herr Huprich what does hartmetall mean in German?

Hart - Hard

Metall - Metal

Hartmetall - Tungsten Carbide

Guess what "keramisch" means?

Hmmmm. Surely the Germans can't be wrong.

I've also seen Tungsten Carbide referred to as a "composite", a ceramic,
and a cermet.


--

Dan

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


It's a term I've heard more from European companies than American
ones, but it is an old slang term used here. I had it mixed up when I
was typing versus thinking. g

German for Cemented carbide is "hartmetall."

Probably the source of "hardmetal."

--

Dan

On 26 Jan 2006 07:15:10 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Cliff wrote in news:kipbt1ddk2a8khhvsdqgaeil8ncdtbdchk@
4ax.com:

On 23 Jan 2006 13:25:54 -0800, wrote:

Because he was sophisticated technically and socially we had a lovely
conversation and found we were using many similar terms with different
meanings.

Ask about Aluminum billet motorcycle parts G.

Herr Huprich what does hartmetall mean in German?

Hart - Hard

Metall - Metal

Hartmetall - Tungsten Carbide

Germans use "contractions" a lot.
http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr translates "Tungsten Carbide" as Hartmetall,
Hartmetall to "Tungsten Carbide" and "Hart metall" to "Hard metal" while
translating Tungsten to Wolfram and Carbide to Karbid.
It translates "Wolfram Karbid" to Tungsten Carbide as well as
"WolframKarbid" to "Tungsten carbide".

Guess what "keramisch" means?

Sez "ceramically" G.

Hmmmm. Surely the Germans can't be wrong.

I've also seen Tungsten Carbide referred to as a "composite", a ceramic,
and a cermet.

You must be with BB who cannot tell "hardmetal" from "hardmetal"
as they sound much the same G.

BTW, I added alt.aol.tricks as I know that there's an expert in
German there (or at least there was) G.
--
Cliff

On 26 Jan 2006 07:20:39 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in
:


It's a term I've heard more from European companies than American
ones, but it is an old slang term used here. I had it mixed up when I
was typing versus thinking. g

German for Cemented carbide is "hartmetall."

Probably the source of "hardmetal."

I just thought some of the people on rcm might find this interesting...
"Mystery of metallic glass is cracked":
http://www.physorg.com/news10285.html

On 27 Jan 2006 06:35:40 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

But as the debate was raging I kept wondering if perhaps it was the
German word for carbide (hartmetall) that leads to confusion.

But the German word for Carbide seems to be Karbid.

HTH
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:18:30 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 13:37:10 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

It's not my fault that you are unable to support your claim, and seem
to be in a snit over it.

Ah, but you see ...... I know what metals are G.

Cliff:

By all means, let's hear your definition of what metals are, and/or
their properties.

Metals are metals, BB.

Cliff:

Just thought I'd clean up some lose ends while I have a few minutes to
spare.

You have been bragging about how you "Know what metals are", but when I
asked you to grace us with your definition of metals, and their
properties, all you could come up with was "Metal are metals?" LOL Do
you really think that's a cogent response, that's about as useless and
uninformative an answer as anyone could give. Metals have various
definitions, and properties. I'll list a few from Wikipedia below.

================================================== ===============
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal

In chemistry, a metal (Greek: Metallon) is an element that readily
forms ions (cations) and has metallic bonds, and metals are sometimes
described as a lattice of positive ions (cations) in a cloud of
electrons

The allotropes of metals tend to be lustrous, ductile, malleable, and
good conductors, while nonmetals generally speaking are brittle (for
solid nonmetals), lack luster, and are insulators.

Alloys

An alloy is a mixture with metallic properties that contains at least
one metal element. Examples of alloys are steel (iron and carbon), brass
(copper and zinc), bronze (copper and tin), and duralumin (aluminium and
copper).

Physical properties

Traditionally, metals have certain characteristic physical properties:
they are usually shiny (they have "luster"), have a high density, are
ductile and malleable, usually have a high melting point, are usually
hard, and conduct electricity and heat well.
================================================== ===============



I'm not the one that is having trouble backing up his claim.

I don't need to GGG.

You don't NEED to? You were bragging about knowing what metals are,
but when I challenged you to present some evidence of why you believe
Tungsten carbide is NOT a metal all you've got to say is "I don't need
to GGG"? Either you know, or you don't.

You & your lint think it's faith-based again? Subject to you two changing
your opine again later I suppose ....

"Faith based"? You're such a kidder. When challenged to support your
claim that tungsten carbide was not a metal YOU were the one that said
"I don't have to." YOU were the one that was bragging about knowing
what metals were and when actually asked for your definition and
properties of metals all you had to say was "Metals are metals."? I was
the one that has posted the definition and properties of metals from
credible encyclopedias and then YOU have the audacity to say my post of
scientific data on metals is "Faith Based"? LMAO! You HAVE heard of
the psychological affliction called "projection", haven't you? You
know, where someone accuses others of faults they themselves possess to
deflect attention away from their own shortcomings.


Are you claiming that elemental Tungsten is NOT a metal? Better go
look at a periodic table of the elements if you're in doubt.

What part of "CARBIDE" was unclear?

Do you see the word "CARBIDE" in my sentence above where I said: "I
think we have established beyond a reasonable doubt that Tungsten is a
metal."

But THAT's not at all the subject, now is it?

You were responding to what I wrote. I never mentioned carbide in that
sentence. I suggest you try reading for content, for a change. g

You used it to opine about Carbides .... LOL ....

Nope. You better go reread the exchange for content. I was speaking
strictly about tungsten in that exchange.


You claimed to know the facts, but when I asked you to support your
position you failed to present any. What do you think that says about
your "claimed" knowledge of the facts?

That they make mighty fine bait at times GG.

Bait? That sounds suspiciously like an attempt to use weasel words to
cover your lack of knowledge of the subject matter after all your
bragging. That, or you REALLY are simply trolling with little thought
given to trying to arrive at the truth. Either way, not exactly the
behavior of someone very interested in contributing in a positive
manner, eh? LOL


Rocks are opaque too so I suppose that you think that they are metals too ...

Do all rocks have good electrical and thermal conductivity? NO!
Do all rocks have a crystalline structure? NO!

Umm ... you may want to rethink that G.

Oh? Why? You've never heard of amphorus (non-crystaline), rock?

You are thinking of glass?

Look up pumice, obsidian, scoria, opal, etc. These ARE considered
"glassy", but my point was that not ALL rocks have a crystalline
structure, to which you seemed to object.


Do all rocks have a luster when polished? NO!

Umm ... you may want to rethink that G.

Oh? Why? Are you mistaking smoothness for luster?

Your angle's probably all wrong G.


Just look at the clarification given in the first part of this post
from Wik about the properties of metals. "They are usually shiny (they
have "luster")"


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

wrote:


The
ceramic people tend to think of tungsten carbide as metallic because it
bends. (Boeing twists 6" strips into spirals.) Tungten carbide
people then to think of it as tungsten carbide. Those of us concerned
with its chemical properties tend to think of it as both or either
depending on what we are doing.

Tom:

So if I'm interpreting you correctly, you seem to be saying that
whether tungsten carbide is considered metallic or a metal is somewhat
dependent upon your perspective? That sounds reasonable.

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Opossums look like cats. They have tails, eyes and ears like cats.
They smell like cats too. Can I correctly call an Opossum a cat?

-PossumMan
BottleBob wrote:
wrote:

As two of the participants have pointed out the language is a bit
unclear here. The great majority of the leaders in these fields seem
to be willing to accept a variety of terms somewhat interchangeably.

Tom:

I'll post the same question to you that I did to Unknown. Can tungsten
carbide tooling (since it is an intimate "mixture" of tungsten, carbon,
and cobalt), be correctly referred to as metallic or a metal since the
finished product has
metallic properties?


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Cliff wrote in newsnvjt197s4p5onamd50n9qo0d2kbk4gjhi@
4ax.com:

On 27 Jan 2006 06:35:40 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

But as the debate was raging I kept wondering if perhaps it was the
German word for carbide (hartmetall) that leads to confusion.

But the German word for Carbide seems to be Karbid.

If you say so...

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...lient&ie=UTF-8
&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-13,GGLD:en&q=hartmetall

That search turned up a bunch of tooling companies.

http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...lient&ie=UTF-8
&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-13,GGLD:en&q=Karbid

That search returned mostly sites talking about fonts and other stuff
unrelated to tooling.

Carbide and cemented carbide or Tungsten carbide used in tooling are two
different things.

HTH

--

Dan

On 27 Jan 2006 15:49:54 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

Cliff wrote in newsnvjt197s4p5onamd50n9qo0d2kbk4gjhi@
4ax.com:

On 27 Jan 2006 06:35:40 GMT, D Murphy wrote:

But as the debate was raging I kept wondering if perhaps it was the
German word for carbide (hartmetall) that leads to confusion.

But the German word for Carbide seems to be Karbid.

If you say so...

And we all know about Hartz, right?
http://home.earthlink.net/~zydaco/pi...tz_506x712.JPG
--
Cliff

"Justin" wrote in message
ups.com...
BottleBob wrote:
wrote:

As two of the participants have pointed out the language is a bit
unclear here. The great majority of the leaders in these fields seem
to be willing to accept a variety of terms somewhat interchangeably.

Tom:

I'll post the same question to you that I did to Unknown. Can tungsten
carbide tooling (since it is an intimate "mixture" of tungsten, carbon,
and cobalt), be correctly referred to as metallic or a metal since the
finished product has
metallic properties?



Opossums look like cats. They have tails, eyes and ears like cats.
They smell like cats too. Can I correctly call an Opossum a cat?

-PossumMan

Justin,

Curious...where abouts ( generally ) do you live at ??

( I took onna "real job" recently...just for fun...as mosta the regulars
here already know )

Lessee....there's a Justin, a Matt, anna FranK....( Einstien lookin kid, but
w/ red hair still )

( Oh, and then there's some new guy--IM thinking his name just MIGHT be
Sam )....

--

SVL

Justin wrote:

Opossums look like cats. They have tails, eyes and ears like cats.
They smell like cats too. Can I correctly call an Opossum a cat?

PossumMan:

There are some distinct Form/Functional differences between opossums
and cats. Opossums have long thin muzzles, short legs compared to body
size, and that distinctive hairless "Rat-like tail. Functionally there
are differences as well, they are marsupials with a "pouch", they are
omnivorous in their eating habits, So really they're not much like cats
at all.

From a materials properties standpoint tungsten carbide tooling shares
many of the properties of metals. It's hard, lustrous, conducts heat &
electricity, is attracted to magnets, has what appears to be metallic
bonding of at least one of it's constituents (possibly the cobalt
binder). Most of these properties are shared by the general class of
High-Speed-Steels which also use tungsten and forms ferric, vanadium,
molybdenum "carbides".

Perhaps we should call tungsten carbide tooling "'Possum Metal".

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 13:53:34 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

metallic bonding

Think that's it now?
Or was it the magnetic bit?
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:30:35 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Do all rocks have a crystalline structure? NO!

Umm ... you may want to rethink that G.

Oh? Why? You've never heard of amphorus (non-crystaline), rock?

You are thinking of glass?

Look up pumice,

"Pumice is actually a kind of glass ..."

Cliff:


In other words a non-crystalline rock.


obsidian,

OBSIDIAN (Volcanic Silica Glass)
"Inclusions of small, white, radially clustered crystals of cristobalite in
the black glass produce a blotchy or snowflake pattern producing Snowflake
Obsidian."

In other words a non-crystalline rock.


scoria,

"Scoria is actually a kind of glass .."

In other words a non-crystalline rock.


opal,

"OPAL (Hydrated Silica Glass)"

In other words a non-crystalline rock.


etc. These ARE considered
"glassy", but my point was that not ALL rocks have a crystalline
structure, to which you seemed to object.

I guess we've resolved your error in thinking that ALL rocks have a
crystalline structure. LOL


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

In article . com,
"Justin" wrote:

Opossums look like cats. They have tails, eyes and ears like cats.
They smell like cats too. Can I correctly call an Opossum a cat?

-PossumMan

I'd be interested in finding out where you live, here in Florida, they
don't look like or smell like cats. An the eyes, ears and tails all
more closely resemble Rats.... Now if you wanted to call Opossums rats,
I'd be right there with ya.....


--Wade

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:49:16 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jan 2006 13:30:35 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Do all rocks have a crystalline structure? NO!

Umm ... you may want to rethink that G.

Oh? Why? You've never heard of amphorus (non-crystaline), rock?

You are thinking of glass?

Look up pumice,

"Pumice is actually a kind of glass ..."

Cliff:


In other words a non-crystalline rock.

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


obsidian,

OBSIDIAN (Volcanic Silica Glass)
"Inclusions of small, white, radially clustered crystals of cristobalite in
the black glass produce a blotchy or snowflake pattern producing Snowflake
Obsidian."

In other words a non-crystalline rock.

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?

scoria,

"Scoria is actually a kind of glass .."

In other words a non-crystalline rock.

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


opal,

"OPAL (Hydrated Silica Glass)"

In other words a non-crystalline rock.

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?

etc. These ARE considered
"glassy", but my point was that not ALL rocks have a crystalline
structure, to which you seemed to object.

I guess we've resolved your error in thinking that ALL rocks have a
crystalline structure. LOL

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:49:16 GMT, BottleBob wrote:


I guess we've resolved your error in thinking that ALL rocks have a
crystalline structure. LOL

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?

Cliff:

Are you trying to claim that pumice, obsidian, and scoria, are NOT
forms of igneous rock? LMAO!
Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Actually the pure white sand found in the Santa Cruz mountains are
shipped over a mountain for two reasons.

1. - replace sand on the beaches of Hawaii. Been that way since the 40's.
2. - shipped to the central valley of Ca. to a glass company - making glass for
fruits. And glass for pure needs.

When you start out with clean SiO2 without iron or copper or ..... feldspars mixed in -
it is worth a high value for unique needs. Normal beach sand is tan, brown, black.
This was white. Rather unique.

Martin
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH & Endowment Member
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder



BottleBob wrote:
Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 19:49:16 GMT, BottleBob wrote:



I guess we've resolved your error in thinking that ALL rocks have a
crystalline structure. LOL

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


Cliff:

Are you trying to claim that pumice, obsidian, and scoria, are NOT
forms of igneous rock? LMAO!
Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:21:55 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.

Never a waste as you are learning things G.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?

Cliff you are stuttering.
As to glass, it is a melted rock. :-)
...lew...

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 16:48:15 GMT, Lew Hartswick
wrote:

Cliff wrote:

"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?


"You are thinking of glass?"
Is glass a rock?

Cliff you are stuttering.
As to glass, it is a melted rock. :-)

http://www.jhu.edu/~matsci/people/fa...ackground.html
http://www.memagazine.org/backissues.../metallic.html

...lew...

My, my ..... VBG.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Sat, 28 Jan 2006 20:34:57 -0600, "Martin H. Eastburn"
wrote:

When you get down to the Chemical chart - most of the 'upper' part -
Above the rare earths - most of the top is a metal.

HUH?

Hydrogen on the left and then Nitrogen, Ox, F, the Noble gases
S, CL Br I and ?maybe At.

Hydrogen is a metal, right?
Fits right in above Lithium .....

Cliff:

You didn't know that Hydrogen can be considered a metal under the right
conditions, those conditions being extreme pressure?

================================================== ====
Hydrogen:

Under extreme pressures, hydrogen can actually act like a metal by, for
example, conducting electricity and reflecting light. Some planetary
scientists believe that Jupiter's immense magnetic field is created by
metallic hydrogen in its core. The immense pressure at the center of
Jupiter might prevent each hydrogen atom's electron from binding to a
single nucleus. Instead, the electrons might be shared by all the
nuclei, as are electrons in a metal. This would make hydrogen conduct
electricity like other magnetic metals. Scientists have used extremely
high temperatures (approximately 5000° C or 9000° F) and high pressures
(1.8 million times the normal pressure of Earth's atmosphere at sea
level) to temporarily transform hydrogen into a metal.


"Hydrogen," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================== ====

================================================== ====
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen

At standard temperature and pressure, hydrogen forms a diatomic gas, H2,
with a boiling point of only 20.27 K and a melting point of 14.02 K.[1]
Under extreme pressures, such as those at the center of gas giants, the
molecules lose their identity and the hydrogen becomes a metal (metallic
hydrogen).
================================================== =====



--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

Cliff wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:21:55 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.

Never a waste as you are learning things G.


Cliff:

LOL yeah, I learned something. I learned YOU didn't know that pumice,
obsidian, and scoria are forms of non-crystalline igneous rock.

NOW let's see if we can learn if you have the integrity and honesty to
ADMIT your error. Let me copy the relevant parts from Encarta and Wik:

================================================== =======
Pumice, igneous rock having a spongy or frothy texture...

"Pumice," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================== =======

================================================== =======
Obsidian, produced when molten igneous rock (magma) pushes its way up to
the earth's surface and cools so rapidly that its constituent ions do
not have time to crystallize.


"Obsidian," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================== =======

================================================== =======
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoria

Scoria is a type of igneous rock containing many gas bubbles, or
vesicules.
================================================== =======

So now that you learned something, please answer the following
question:

Are pumice, obsidian, and scoria considered "rocks"?

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"jk" wrote in message

Neither one, Bob. It's a metal-matrix composite. Think about reinforced
epoxy. 'Same thing.
And so essentially is steel, which fairly uniformly is considered a
metal.

The carbon in steel comes in three forms, IIRC, but the one that makes it
steel is not a simple mixture or a compound. It is an incorporation into the
molecular structure of iron -- the crystal structure -- that stresses the
iron crystals. Most hardening mechanisms involve such stress.

Some carbon combines with the iron to form iron carbide. Except for
cementite structures (a phase of steel), this has little to do with steel's
properties. And there can be free carbon in very high-carbon steel, somewhat
like the free carbon in cast iron.

Most of the phases in "steel" are carbides
AS from the definition of cementite, from
http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Cementite.htm
"Definition: An iron carbide (Fe3C) constituent of steel. It is hard,
brittle and crystalline. Steel which has cooled slowly from a high
temperature contains ferrite and pearlite in relative proportions
varying with the chemical composition of the steel. Pearlite is a
lamellar structure of ferrite and cementite."


Pearllite
Definition: A lamellar constituent of steel consisting of alternate
layers of ferrite (alpha-iron) and cementite (iron Carbide Fe3C) and
is formed on cooling austenite at 723oC. This produces a tough
structure and is responsible for the mechanical properties of
unhardened steel.

Ferrite
Definition: The solid solution of carbon in body-centered cubic iron,
a constituent of carbon steels.






But composite structures, by convention, are ones in which the matrix and
the bound material produce a composite material that shares or combines
properties of the two (or more) materials in a significant way. Free carbon
in steel does not. Neither does the carbide.

Are you saying it is insignificant? or that it does not combine the
properites? To my mind it does both [Signficicant enough that we can
harden (some) steels] and the properties are not the same as either
elemental iron, low carbon steels, or iron carbide. Just because you
can change the location, size,shape of the composite material by heat
treatment, does not make it any less composite.


Extremely high-alloy HSS, such as CPM Rex 121, actually get some wear
resistance from the precipitated carbides. However, the main one there is
chromium carbide, not iron carbide.

Metals, metalloids, and "metallics" are defined loosely by their properties.
For example, silicon metal is just considered a metal by metallurgists. But
it has only some of the properties that we associate with metals. Add some
carbon, and it's silicon carbide. Add oxygen, and it's sand.

jk

"jk" wrote in message
news
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"jk" wrote in message

Neither one, Bob. It's a metal-matrix composite. Think about
reinforced
epoxy. 'Same thing.
And so essentially is steel, which fairly uniformly is considered a
metal.

The carbon in steel comes in three forms, IIRC, but the one that makes it
steel is not a simple mixture or a compound. It is an incorporation into
the
molecular structure of iron -- the crystal structure -- that stresses the
iron crystals. Most hardening mechanisms involve such stress.

Some carbon combines with the iron to form iron carbide. Except for
cementite structures (a phase of steel), this has little to do with
steel's
properties. And there can be free carbon in very high-carbon steel,
somewhat
like the free carbon in cast iron.

Most of the phases in "steel" are carbides

I believe that the phases austenite, ferrite, and martensite are solid
solutions, not carbides. As I mentioned, cementite is an iron carbide that
can have larger effects on steel's properties, generally as the pearlite
laminate you describe below.

The carbides in steel (and there can be others besides iron carbide,
depending on the alloy) are not what give steel its strength or hardness.
Except for some pretty exotic alloys, the primary strengthening and
hardening mechanism is the molecular-level stress induced in the conversion
of austenite to martensite.

AS from the definition of cementite, from
http://metals.about.com/library/bldef-Cementite.htm
"Definition: An iron carbide (Fe3C) constituent of steel. It is hard,
brittle and crystalline. Steel which has cooled slowly from a high
temperature contains ferrite and pearlite in relative proportions
varying with the chemical composition of the steel. Pearlite is a
lamellar structure of ferrite and cementite."


Pearllite
Definition: A lamellar constituent of steel consisting of alternate
layers of ferrite (alpha-iron) and cementite (iron Carbide Fe3C) and
is formed on cooling austenite at 723oC. This produces a tough
structure and is responsible for the mechanical properties of
unhardened steel.

Ferrite
Definition: The solid solution of carbon in body-centered cubic iron,
a constituent of carbon steels.


But composite structures, by convention, are ones in which the matrix and
the bound material produce a composite material that shares or combines
properties of the two (or more) materials in a significant way. Free
carbon
in steel does not. Neither does the carbide.

Are you saying it is insignificant? or that it does not combine the
properites? To my mind it does both [Signficicant enough that we can
harden (some) steels] and the properties are not the same as either
elemental iron, low carbon steels, or iron carbide. Just because you
can change the location, size,shape of the composite material by heat
treatment, does not make it any less composite.

Let's add "macro" or something like that to distinguish the common
understanding of "composite" from molecular combinations (solid solutions,
in this case) like the steel phase called martensite. Martensite is a
combination of iron and carbon, but it wouldn't ordinarily be called a
composite. Carbon fibers distributed in a matrix of iron or steel would be a
composite. And pearlite is neither very hard nor very strong. It's present
in annealed steels, not in quench-hardened ones.

And, in terms of hardness or strength, carbides don't add much to the
properties of steel until you get up to the very high-alloy materials,
particularly the extreme high-end, powder-metallurgy high-speed steels, such
as CPM Rex 121 and comparable numbers from Fette and one or two others. In
those, there is enough free carbide in the steel matrix (vanadium and
chromium carbides, mostly) to improve the wear resistance of the steel, as
well as its apparent hardness. But it isn't the composite properties that
produce the steel's basic hardness or strength. It's a combination of
martensite conversion and either solid-solution hardening or precipitation
hardening (I forget which). These are pretty exotic steels.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:44:04 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:21:55 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.

Never a waste as you are learning things G.


Cliff:

LOL yeah, I learned something. I learned YOU didn't know that pumice,
obsidian, and scoria are forms of non-crystalline igneous rock.

What part of "glass" remains unclear?

NOW let's see if we can learn if you have the integrity and honesty to
ADMIT your error. Let me copy the relevant parts from Encarta and Wik:

Absolutely amazing ... search, copy & paste again ....

================================================= ========
Pumice, igneous rock having a spongy or frothy texture...

"Pumice," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================= ========

================================================= ========
Obsidian, produced when molten igneous rock (magma) pushes its way up to
the earth's surface and cools so rapidly that its constituent ions do
not have time to crystallize.


"Obsidian," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================= ========

================================================= ========
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoria

Scoria is a type of igneous rock containing many gas bubbles, or
vesicules.
================================================= ========

So now that you learned something, please answer the following
question:

Are pumice, obsidian, and scoria considered "rocks"?

They would seem to be glasses G.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 18:44:04 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jan 2006 01:21:55 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Quit wasting my time with your nonsensical trolling.

Never a waste as you are learning things G.


Cliff:

LOL yeah, I learned something. I learned YOU didn't know that pumice,
obsidian, and scoria are forms of non-crystalline igneous rock.

What part of "glass" remains unclear?

NOW let's see if we can learn if you have the integrity and honesty to
ADMIT your error. Let me copy the relevant parts from Encarta and Wik:

Absolutely amazing ... search, copy & paste again ....

================================================= ========
Pumice, igneous rock having a spongy or frothy texture...

"Pumice," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================= ========

================================================= ========
Obsidian, produced when molten igneous rock (magma) pushes its way up to
the earth's surface and cools so rapidly that its constituent ions do
not have time to crystallize.


"Obsidian," Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2000. © 1993-1999 Microsoft
Corporation. All rights reserved.
================================================= ========

================================================= ========
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoria

Scoria is a type of igneous rock containing many gas bubbles, or
vesicules.
================================================= ========

So now that you learned something, please answer the following
question:

Are pumice, obsidian, and scoria considered "rocks"?

They would seem to be glasses G.


Cliff:

Why did you avoid the question? Here, let me make it easier by turning
it into a true or false choice.

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:24:13 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Why did you avoid the question? Here, let me make it easier by turning
it into a true or false choice.

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [ ]
False [ ]
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

That didn't hurt at all. Now your turn.

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:11 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

That didn't hurt at all. Now your turn.

Good.
There are many glasses G.
Why did you object to these?
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:11 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

That didn't hurt at all. Now your turn.

Good.
There are many glasses G.
Why did you object to these?


Cliff:

Your turn, what are you afraid of?

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]


--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:43:27 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:11 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

That didn't hurt at all. Now your turn.

Good.
There are many glasses G.
Why did you object to these?


Cliff:

Your turn, what are you afraid of?

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

You objected to being informed that these were glasses G.
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:43:27 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:11 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

Your turn, what are you afraid of?

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

You objected to being informed that these were glasses G.

Cliff:

I notice you still Cliffoided the question yet again.

Actually, what I objected to was your erroneous inference that ALL
rocks have a crystalline structure.

Let me repeat the progression of this sub-thread:

================================================== ======
BB said:

"Do all rocks have a crystalline structure? NO!"

Cliff said:

"Umm ... you may want to rethink that G."

BB said:

"Oh? Why? You've never heard of amorphous (non-crystalline), rock?"
================================================== ======

So are you ready to honestly answer the question, or are you going to
try to use more weasel words to avoid it? LOL

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob

On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:03:50 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:43:27 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 23:45:11 GMT, BottleBob wrote:

Cliff wrote:

Try this:
Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are glasses:
True [X]
False [ ]

Cliff:

Your turn, what are you afraid of?

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

You objected to being informed that these were glasses G.

Cliff:

I notice you still Cliffoided the question yet again.

Actually, what I objected to was your erroneous inference that ALL
rocks have a crystalline structure.


But *I'M* the one that pointed out that some are glasses !!!
To which YOU objected VBG.

Let me repeat the progression of this sub-thread:

================================================= =======
BB said:

"Do all rocks have a crystalline structure? NO!"

Cliff said:

"Umm ... you may want to rethink that G."

What else were you arguing about? Was it Hydrogen Carbide
being a metal?


BB said:

"Oh? Why? You've never heard of amorphous (non-crystalline), rock?"
================================================= =======

To which I responded about glasses G

So are you ready to honestly answer the question, or are you going to
try to use more weasel words to avoid it? LOL

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]

Are metals rocks too?
--
Cliff

Cliff wrote:


Cliff:

So are you ready to honestly answer the question?

Pumice, obsidian, and scoria are amorphous (non-crystalline or
"glassy"), igneous rock.

True [ ]
False [ ]



--
BottleBob
http://home.earthlink.net/~bottlbob