Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar.

A drill chuck won't live long if you use it to hold endmills.

John Husvar wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

Taper mounted chucks are *not* to be used in side loaded applications
like milling. Order a proper collet for $10 or end mill holder for $20
from Enco.

Pete C.

Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

This appears to be the only mill/drill they sell.
The information indicates it is an R8 spindle. There's
a lot of R8 tools and collets available via eBay.
Before doing the welding gig I think I would at least
try an R8 collet. For what it's worth! sdh.

John Husvar wrote:
Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

John Husvar wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

Taper mounted chucks are *not* to be used in side loaded applications
like milling. Order a proper collet for $10 or end mill holder for $20
from Enco.

Pete C.

That's pretty much what I figured: It doesn't work and now I know it
can't. Thanks! I'll start checking out Enco. Do you have a URL for them,
perhaps?

In article rW_if.585826$_o.44979@attbi_s71,
"Dave Lyon" wrote:

came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar.

A drill chuck won't live long if you use it to hold endmills.

Thank you. I kind of figured as much. Now I know.

See my reply to Pete C.

My experience with milling has been limited to using a clamp-on keyway
cutter on shafting except for a very little time using a Bridgeport,
which a _real_ machinist set up.

Which proves again that you should never, ever try to use a
drill chuck to hold an end mill for anything but plunge work.

Collets and/or end-mill holders are cheap enough and easy to
find. Spend a few bucks and do it right before some one gets
hurt. Think of the chuck coming lose at high speed with an
end-mill or cutter and going across the shop.

Unless the shop is next to broke I suggest an ER collet holder
adapter. Very tight grip on the tooling shanks, wide clamp
range, and easy to change the tooling.

Email me if you need some suggested sources.

Uncle George

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:47:32 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

John Husvar wrote:
That's pretty much what I figured: It doesn't work and now I know it
can't. Thanks! I'll start checking out Enco. Do you have a URL for them,
perhaps?

www.use-enco.com

www.mscdirect.com

www.mcmaster.com


....And the other two major players (as far as I know, I'm sure there are
others, these one have decent web ordering/presence)

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by

In article ,
Steve Hopper wrote:

Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

This appears to be the only mill/drill they sell.
The information indicates it is an R8 spindle. There's
a lot of R8 tools and collets available via eBay.
Before doing the welding gig I think I would at least
try an R8 collet. For what it's worth! sdh.

John Husvar wrote:
Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."


That's the one! Wonder why I didn't find it. I missed it somehow. Poor
choice of search terms maybe.

Thanks.

In article ,
F. George McDuffee wrote:

Which proves again that you should never, ever try to use a
drill chuck to hold an end mill for anything but plunge work.

That's turned out to be a little bit of an understatement!


Collets and/or end-mill holders are cheap enough and easy to
find. Spend a few bucks and do it right before some one gets
hurt. Think of the chuck coming lose at high speed with an
end-mill or cutter and going across the shop.

I see your point. I have a heckuva lot to learn. (obviously)
Thanks to rcm, it might be a less painful process.

Unless the shop is next to broke I suggest an ER collet holder
adapter. Very tight grip on the tooling shanks, wide clamp
range, and easy to change the tooling.

I'll start looking for sure.


Email me if you need some suggested sources.

Thank you.
John

Should use R8 collects.

www.use-enco.com
You can get a cheap set of 13 collets (1/8" to 7/8" by 16ths) for $45
part number 505-5022 Or just buy the few sizes you need for $7 each.
These are definately NOT top of the line but should be just fine for
your machine.

You might want to get the full set of el-cheapo end mills to match: 4
flute 3/16" to 3/4" by 1/16th for $35 P/N 320-9005

Cheers.

John Husvar wrote:
Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

On Tue, 29 Nov, John Husvar wrote:
Steve Hopper wrote:
Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

That's the one! Wonder why I didn't find it. I missed it somehow. Poor
choice of search terms maybe.

Dude, check out:

http://www.mini-lathe.com

Lots of info there. That's the Sieg Mini-mill, same one as available from
Harbor Freight, Grizzly, etc. I have one. Not a bad piece of gear,
especially for the money.

I got collets in all sizes from:

http://littlemachineshop.com/

I haven't tried them yet, but I can only assume they work fine. You'll
note there are a lot of cool "upgrades" and options for those mills
available there, too. They even have a "spare parts" kit of the cheap and
commonly broken parts that you might encounter. You probably want:

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1604

Note they even show the Cummins 7877 as compatible. Very nice site.
Probably not the cheapest place around, but they seem to have stock when
they say they do, they ship fast, and they ship right (in my limited
experience with them).


--Donnie

--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.

snip
That's pretty much what I figured: It doesn't work and now I know it
can't. Thanks! I'll start checking out Enco. Do you have a URL for them,
perhaps?
In addition to msc/enco [actually different sided of the same
company see:
http://phase2plus.com/details.asp?pr=R-8_COLLETS&id=17
http://phase2plus.com/details.asp?pr...-8_SHANK&id=29
[fwit -- I find the holders are better than the collets but
cut-down on the headroom.

http://www.wttool.com/c/17000010p
3/8 collet c.6$US
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1604
[set of 6 c. 24$US]

https://www.travers.com/pdfshow.asp?p=496
http://www.wttool.com/p/1617-9910
Spring collet to R8 adapter -- good if you change tools
frequently]

http://www.wttool.com/p/0958-9901
6 3/8 shank endmills and a 3/8 R8 holder 30$US
http://www.wttool.com/c/16169980p
full set of holders

One trick is to get a 1 inch R8 holder and make up adapters for
your smaller tooling from 1 inch drill rod. Quick change tooling
cheap.

Uncle George

John
That's the same mill I have, but mine came from Homier. Your boss
got a bargain at $250. I would have bought it for that, even though I
have one already.

Save the drill chuck for drilling when you need a very accurately placed
hole. Get at least a 3/8" R8 collet for that endmill. As someone
else said, just get a cheap set from any of a number of places. About $5
each , less in sets. You will need a rack. I made one from 1x4 pine,
but you can buy one for $10
If most of what you ever expect to use is a 3/8" endmill, or at
least endmills with only 3/8" shanks, go ahead and get a R8 3/8" endmill
holder. That is preferred to a collet.
Best support site for these is littlemachineshop.com. I suggest
you go ahead and order the spare gears set, as you will break one of the
plastic gears sooner or later, and you don't want to be down waiting
for UPS. I also ordered the better gib locking handles, as the OE units
are junk and strip out easily.
Be sure to get all the grease and casting dirt cleaned out before
you get too far along. Some disassembly required.

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
Steve Hopper wrote:


Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

This appears to be the only mill/drill they sell.
The information indicates it is an R8 spindle. There's
a lot of R8 tools and collets available via eBay.
Before doing the welding gig I think I would at least
try an R8 collet. For what it's worth! sdh.

John Husvar wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."



That's the one! Wonder why I didn't find it. I missed it somehow. Poor
choice of search terms maybe.

Thanks.

--Do yourself a favor and fire your boss.. ;-)

--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Bummed to be living in the
Hacking the Trailing Edge! : Golden Age of Bull****...
http://www.nmpproducts.com/intro.htm
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---

snip
I see your point. I have a heckuva lot to learn. (obviously)
Thanks to rcm, it might be a less painful process.
snip
John
For a good introductory text see
http://www.hansergardner.com/dp/hgwe...-9%20%20&ctg=M

This may be available for less $ through amazon, etc.

Uncle George

In article ,
steamer wrote:

--Do yourself a favor and fire your boss.. ;-)

Tempting sometimes!

Seriously, we could afford a bigger, better mill, but it'd be such
overkill for what we do that it wouldn't make sense. About the most
we'll ever do with this thing is make or lengthen slots in wheelchair
adaptive equipment. Rarely, we might mill a piece to fit it into a tight
spot.

I'll probably work it harder making some tee-nuts and clamping pieces
than I ever will actually making or modifying parts. Heck, A drill press
vise is most likely the biggest thing we'll ever need for it. That or a
small proper milling vise will hold anything we're likely to put on it.

I managed to get a little job done yesterday doing everything wrong and
holding the workpieces in our drill press vise, which I clamped to the
mill's table with 3/8 hex head bolts and washers. Nothing got away
(except the chuck itself because I was too dumb to remember you can't
hold endmills in drill chucks) and the cuts did get made.

One of these days I might even get to having some vague idea what I'm
doing.

One thing for sure, I'll add one more skill to my repertoire soon as I
do get that vague idea. And I like that.

snip
I'll probably work it harder making some tee-nuts and clamping pieces
than I ever will actually making or modifying parts. Heck, A drill press
vise is most likely the biggest thing we'll ever need for it. That or a
small proper milling vise will hold anything we're likely to put on it.
snip
Save yourself a lot of time and use carriage bolts. You will
need to grind a little of the top of the head and the sides to
fit your table slots. Belt sander works fine for this. Carriage
bolts are not [generally] grade 8 but on a low power machine they
will be fine. Make up a bunch in different lengths.

Uncle George

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:27:37 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

In article ,
Steve Hopper wrote:

Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

This appears to be the only mill/drill they sell.
The information indicates it is an R8 spindle. There's
a lot of R8 tools and collets available via eBay.
Before doing the welding gig I think I would at least
try an R8 collet. For what it's worth! sdh.

John Husvar wrote:
Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."


That's the one! Wonder why I didn't find it. I missed it somehow. Poor
choice of search terms maybe.

Thanks.


R8 is common as dirt.

Dont use the chuck.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:



R8 is common as dirt.

Dont use the chuck.

Kinda got that message -- as well as discovering to my dismay that it
just doesn't work.

This has gotta be the most helpful newsgroup on Usenet, maybe in a dead
heat with sci.engr.joining.welding

Just downright awesome, the amount of expertise in those two groups!

Unless the shop is next to broke I suggest an ER collet holder
adapter. Very tight grip on the tooling shanks, wide clamp
range, and easy to change the tooling.

Seconded. I have a round column mill-drill, and find an ER collet set
to be very helpful in avoiding setup hassles. ER collets change in a
lot less vertical space than R8 collets. The chuck takes space too,
which is bad if you care about total table/spindle separation, though
one can always use R8 collets to squeeze the last couple of inches in a
situation like that.

For me, the concern is the relative height of chucked bits and collet
held endmills, and ER is a great answer. It also reduces the frequency
with which I need to mount the chuck because I can use collets for most
bits.

Bill

John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
steamer wrote:


--Do yourself a favor and fire your boss.. ;-)


Tempting sometimes!

Seriously, we could afford a bigger, better mill, but it'd be such
overkill for what we do that it wouldn't make sense. About the most
we'll ever do with this thing is make or lengthen slots in wheelchair
adaptive equipment. Rarely, we might mill a piece to fit it into a tight
spot.

I'll probably work it harder making some tee-nuts and clamping pieces
than I ever will actually making or modifying parts. Heck, A drill press
vise is most likely the biggest thing we'll ever need for it. That or a
small proper milling vise will hold anything we're likely to put on it.

IMHO, check the t-slot size and buy even a $35 clamping kit. The strap
clamps and step blocks alone will be worth the money, and you'll get
t-nuts with it. I doubt you could get the raw material for what the
machined set costs, though I would ejoy being proven wrong[*]. While
you're at it, you should probably get a set of parallels and a good
milling machine vise, unless that is considered overkill for a mini-mill??
[*] Gainesville FL for location-specific answers.


I managed to get a little job done yesterday doing everything wrong and
holding the workpieces in our drill press vise, which I clamped to the
mill's table with 3/8 hex head bolts and washers. Nothing got away
(except the chuck itself because I was too dumb to remember you can't
hold endmills in drill chucks) and the cuts did get made.

If you expect to do any precision setups, ask for grade 8 bolts and washers.

Bill

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:47:32 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

Ok, here's my 2 1/2 cents worth. Others have said, I agree, get an
el-cheapo set of R-8 collets, they'll save you a lot of headaches,
not to mention fingers or toes.

What none have said, check that thing out to make sure it's square, I
had the HF version, square didn't apply. First things to check:

Column square to table. Check front to back, It probably isn't, mine
wasn't. Not a big thing to deal with if you have a nearby shop with a
surface grinder available. The small bracket that mounts to the base
might need to have the bottom ground to make it square. Easy enough
with a right angle plate to fix on the surface grinder.

Second, is the spindle parallel to the column? Mine was also a
definite no. Easier to fix that it looks like, the head is made in
two halves, bolted together, complete with chips, burrs and raised
metal from the tapping. Straight edge and scraper make short work of
this, but when you reassemble, indicate it in any manner you can think
of. If the spindle is out of parallel, you're going to get errors and
not know where they came from

Pull the gib strips out and get the !$(%%*^ sharp corners filed back
so they're not digging into the corner of the gib, making adjustment a
joke and operation rough.

1" travel dial indicators with mag backs on them can make holding a
tolerance a lot easier, especially if the gib locks are set to just
drag a little. Work to the indicator, not the dials.

ER collets or end mill holders may seem like a good idea, BUT!
This is a small machine and the spindle isn't any too rigid to begin
with. Any amount of tool overhang you can eliminate won't hurt things
a bit. If you use a milling vise, don't bother with the swivel base,
it's just added height you've got subtracting from your already
limited space, it just makes things shaky.

Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.

It can be an excellent small machine, but a lot depends on the initial
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.

Rich

Richard wrote:
What none have said, check that thing out to make sure it's square, I
had the HF version, square didn't apply. First things to check:

Column square to table. Check front to back, It probably isn't, mine
wasn't. Not a big thing to deal with if you have a nearby shop with a
surface grinder available. The small bracket that mounts to the base
might need to have the bottom ground to make it square.

Most people are shimming these. They tend to be out by .003 or so,
column leaning toward table.

Second, is the spindle parallel to the column? Mine was also a
definite no. Easier to fix that it looks like, the head is made in
two halves, bolted together, complete with chips, burrs and raised
metal from the tapping. Straight edge and scraper make short work of
this, but when you reassemble, indicate it in any manner you can think
of. If the spindle is out of parallel, you're going to get errors and
not know where they came from

Pull the gib strips out and get the !$(%%*^ sharp corners filed back
so they're not digging into the corner of the gib, making adjustment a
joke and operation rough.

1" travel dial indicators with mag backs on them can make holding a
tolerance a lot easier, especially if the gib locks are set to just
drag a little. Work to the indicator, not the dials.

A ggod simple first project is adding a DI to the spindle limit block,
the locking thing that slides up and down on the column under the
spindle. Drill and tap the left end (opposite the lock handle). Make a
standoff bracket to place the DI vertically to contact the bottom of the
spindle case. Excellent for measuring depth of cut. Looks cool too

ER collets or end mill holders may seem like a good idea, BUT!
This is a small machine and the spindle isn't any too rigid to begin
with. Any amount of tool overhang you can eliminate won't hurt things
a bit. If you use a milling vise, don't bother with the swivel base,
it's just added height you've got subtracting from your already
limited space, it just makes things shaky.

Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.

Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?

It can be an excellent small machine, but a lot depends on the initial
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.

Get a screwless vise, don't use a drilpress vise.

All great info, but it leaves me wondering if there is a better forum for
these machines than this one?


--Donnie

On Tue, 29 Nov, Rex B wrote:

Richard wrote:
What none have said, check that thing out to make sure it's square, I
had the HF version, square didn't apply. First things to check:

Column square to table. Check front to back, It probably isn't, mine
wasn't. Not a big thing to deal with if you have a nearby shop with a
surface grinder available. The small bracket that mounts to the base
might need to have the bottom ground to make it square.

Most people are shimming these. They tend to be out by .003 or so,
column leaning toward table.

Second, is the spindle parallel to the column? Mine was also a
definite no. Easier to fix that it looks like, the head is made in
two halves, bolted together, complete with chips, burrs and raised
metal from the tapping. Straight edge and scraper make short work of
this, but when you reassemble, indicate it in any manner you can think
of. If the spindle is out of parallel, you're going to get errors and
not know where they came from

Pull the gib strips out and get the !$(%%*^ sharp corners filed back
so they're not digging into the corner of the gib, making adjustment a
joke and operation rough.

1" travel dial indicators with mag backs on them can make holding a
tolerance a lot easier, especially if the gib locks are set to just
drag a little. Work to the indicator, not the dials.

A ggod simple first project is adding a DI to the spindle limit block,
the locking thing that slides up and down on the column under the
spindle. Drill and tap the left end (opposite the lock handle). Make a
standoff bracket to place the DI vertically to contact the bottom of the
spindle case. Excellent for measuring depth of cut. Looks cool too

ER collets or end mill holders may seem like a good idea, BUT!
This is a small machine and the spindle isn't any too rigid to begin
with. Any amount of tool overhang you can eliminate won't hurt things
a bit. If you use a milling vise, don't bother with the swivel base,
it's just added height you've got subtracting from your already
limited space, it just makes things shaky.

Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.

Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?

It can be an excellent small machine, but a lot depends on the initial
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.

Get a screwless vise, don't use a drilpress vise.


--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com 879. V.

On 29 Nov 2005 21:43:52 GMT, Donnie Barnes
wrote:

All great info, but it leaves me wondering if there is a better forum for
these machines than this one?


--Donnie

You should checkout:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mini-mill/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/

Art



On Tue, 29 Nov, Rex B wrote:

Richard wrote:
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.
.... stuff deleted ...
Get a screwless vise, don't use a drilpress vise.

Donnie Barnes wrote:
All great info, but it leaves me wondering if there is a better forum for
these machines than this one?

There are at least 2 Yahoo groups that deal with these and are very
active. Search on minimill.
Quite a few websites devoted to these also.

Have fun

rex



On Tue, 29 Nov, Rex B wrote:

Richard wrote:

What none have said, check that thing out to make sure it's square, I
had the HF version, square didn't apply. First things to check:

Column square to table. Check front to back, It probably isn't, mine
wasn't. Not a big thing to deal with if you have a nearby shop with a
surface grinder available. The small bracket that mounts to the base
might need to have the bottom ground to make it square.

Most people are shimming these. They tend to be out by .003 or so,
column leaning toward table.


Second, is the spindle parallel to the column? Mine was also a
definite no. Easier to fix that it looks like, the head is made in
two halves, bolted together, complete with chips, burrs and raised
metal from the tapping. Straight edge and scraper make short work of
this, but when you reassemble, indicate it in any manner you can think
of. If the spindle is out of parallel, you're going to get errors and
not know where they came from

Pull the gib strips out and get the !$(%%*^ sharp corners filed back
so they're not digging into the corner of the gib, making adjustment a
joke and operation rough.

1" travel dial indicators with mag backs on them can make holding a
tolerance a lot easier, especially if the gib locks are set to just
drag a little. Work to the indicator, not the dials.

A ggod simple first project is adding a DI to the spindle limit block,
the locking thing that slides up and down on the column under the
spindle. Drill and tap the left end (opposite the lock handle). Make a
standoff bracket to place the DI vertically to contact the bottom of the
spindle case. Excellent for measuring depth of cut. Looks cool too


ER collets or end mill holders may seem like a good idea, BUT!
This is a small machine and the spindle isn't any too rigid to begin
with. Any amount of tool overhang you can eliminate won't hurt things
a bit. If you use a milling vise, don't bother with the swivel base,
it's just added height you've got subtracting from your already
limited space, it just makes things shaky.

Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.

Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?


It can be an excellent small machine, but a lot depends on the initial
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.

Get a screwless vise, don't use a drilpress vise.

Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.


Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?

It's the slippery stuff you'll put in your next machine

Ok, humor aside. Dig up the manual and/or find others with the same
basic machine to get advice, and look for oil ports (little balls). Get
a pointy-tipped oil can and shoot some oil in them on a regular basis.
Way oil is good for the ways; ask around about the spindle.

Bill

Gezzus. John can't even type 'Enco' into google. Look out, world.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

John Husvar wrote:
In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:


John Husvar wrote:

Well, the boss finally broke down and bought a mill -- sorta.

It's from Cummins Tools, those guys who periodically descend on some
unsuspecting town and hold a "Truckload Tool Sale."

It's a red-painted beast with the head on ways rather than on a round
post. (Which I like) It's about 18 inches tall with decent X and Y table
motions, (8 inches on the Y axis and 4+ on the X) there's not a lot of
backlash and for what little slot-cutting, etc. we do, it'll probably be
adequate.

Now comes The Problem. Since it was the last one they had for this trip
and was a little shopworn, boss got it for $250; as is, where is. It
came with no collets only an attachment with a 1/2-inch chuck on it. The
chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Since I'm by no means a skilled or knowledgeable machinist, (or even _a_
machinist) I'm asking for some ideas how to correct this problem.

I'm tempted to just chuck the attachment bar in a lathe, turn down the
chuck taper until I can get the chuck against the shoulder of the
attachment and just weld the thing together. We'll never need to cut
more than 3/8 slots, but I just think that's a poor way to solve the
problem, just a desperation move.

Does anybody know what collets the thing _should_ use and if they are
available? Would the welding plan work at all, disregarding the
hack-and-slash methodology?

I'm trying to get this thing operating well enough for occasional use on
very small tasks generally. So far, it worked fine, though incorrectly,
for a simple slot lengthening job, but I'd really like to get it going
right. It's not a Bridgeport, but I'd like to make it work well enough
for our small shop.

Advance thanks: I know somebody on this group will have a answer besides
"throw the POS out!"

Taper mounted chucks are *not* to be used in side loaded applications
like milling. Order a proper collet for $10 or end mill holder for $20
from Enco.

Pete C.


That's pretty much what I figured: It doesn't work and now I know it
can't. Thanks! I'll start checking out Enco. Do you have a URL for them,
perhaps?


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Hey John,
I just got this exact same milling machine in last week. I bought mine
on ebay for $480 shipped. Cummins comes through town about once a year
and if they had one for $250, I would have snatched it up. That was a
great deal. I buy all of my accessories from www.shars.com. They have
pretty good prices. They are on ebay as discount_machine.
Here is the link to their sales:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdis...QfsooZ1QQrdZ0?

They have a 11 pc 1/8-3/4" collet set with a buy in now price of
$38.00. I just ordered from them again and spent about $250 with them.
I got end mills, a clamp set, the aforementioned collet set, a machine
vise and some other stuff coming. I'm hoping it will be here this week.
I want to play with my machine!
Mike

According to F. George McDuffee :

[ ... ]

One trick is to get a 1 inch R8 holder and make up adapters for
your smaller tooling from 1 inch drill rod. Quick change tooling
cheap.

That is assuming that the spindle accepts R8 collets. It may be
a Morse taper spindle instead -- and from the size data which I think I
remember being posted, that it is far more likely to be a Morse taper
spindle, so he will need to first determine *which* Morse taper. At a
guess, I suspect MT-2 is the size which he is stuck with. Look for MT-2
collets and MT-2 endmill holders, with the latter being the better
choice.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

According to Steve Hopper :
Would it happen to be:
http://www.cumminstools.com/browse.cfm/4,1485.htm

This appears to be the only mill/drill they sell.
The information indicates it is an R8 spindle.

So -- what I just posted was wrong, It *is* an R8 spindle. That
is good news.

There's
a lot of R8 tools and collets available via eBay.
Before doing the welding gig I think I would at least
try an R8 collet. For what it's worth! sdh.

A collet -- or even better, an R8 end-mill holder. The web page
says that it has a maximum capacity for 1/2", so you can use either, but
bear in mind that R8 collets sometimes let the endmill slip so it cuts
deeper as you go along. The end-mill holders don't have this problem.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:30:46 -0600, Rex B
wrote:



Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?

Way lube, the nuts and the screws. None of these are hardened, no oil
means wear out fast.

Micro Mark has a scew conversion, gets rid of the 16 pitch screws so
you don't have to keep working with that .0625 per revolution. Just
makes it a little easier.

It can be an excellent small machine, but a lot depends on the initial
setup, meaning make sure it's right before you scrap a bunch of stuff.

Get a screwless vise, don't use a drilpress vise.

In article ,
JR North wrote:

Gezzus. John can't even type 'Enco' into google. Look out, world.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

642,000 hits for the term "enco." (sans quotes and period) Fortunately
the first two were the right two.

Can type and did, just thought I'd ask just _in_ case that wasn't _the_
case. Covering my bases -- and maybe my butt.

Look out world, indeed! Silly question. Thanks for the appropriate
answer.

Dweller in the Cellar? Is that where your shop is? If so I'm jealous:
All there is in my cellar is: utilities, water, and a big muckin' sump
pump.

In article ,
JR North wrote:

Gezzus. John can't even type 'Enco' into google. Look out, world.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

And foidermo

The machining world, at least, is in no danger from me: I'm _soitany_
not going to threaten any real machinists with my great (lack of) skills
between now and the hereafter. I'm more the cut-and-try type at this
juncture. I hope to learn some decent skills, but doubt I'm likely to
set the world -- or even Ravenna -- on fire.

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:47:32 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

The chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Did it come with a drawbar which locks the chuck to the spindle ?

It looks like a long bolt which goes through the spindle and screws
into a thread on the taper. Pulls the chuck tight so it cannot drop
out.
Alan
in beautiful Golden Bay, Western Oz, South 32.25.42, East 115.45.44 GMT+8
VK6 YAB ICQ 6581610 to reply, change oz to au in address

In article ,
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:47:32 GMT, John Husvar
wrote:

The chuck will hold an end mill well enough for cutting slots, but the damn
chuck won't stay on the drawbar. I've tried cleaning the drawbar taper
up, marking it with magic marker each trial. The mating surfaces now
appear to be touching each other correctly, but the damn chuck still
won't stay on anyway.

Did it come with a drawbar which locks the chuck to the spindle ?

It looks like a long bolt which goes through the spindle and screws
into a thread on the taper. Pulls the chuck tight so it cannot drop
out.

No, which facilitated My Mistake #1. (#1 -- One shouldn't even _try_ to
use an endmill in a drill chuck.)

I expect the My Mistake number to rise significantly in the next few
weeks. I think I'll buy the book one poster suggested to perhaps limit
the rise, but who knows what evil I can manage? Not even The Shadow.

It was just a taper connection to an R-8 insert; no drawbar to the chuck
itself, just to the holder.

I have one of these. I don't recall any oil ports other than on the X &
Y leadscrew bearings.
And I've had it very apart.

- -
Rex Burkheimer
Fort Worth TX

Bill Schwab wrote:
Watch the oil, figure this is like most of the old machines, when the
oil quits dripping, it's time to add more.



Oil? What oil? You mean as in cutting fluid, or way lube?


It's the slippery stuff you'll put in your next machine

Ok, humor aside. Dig up the manual and/or find others with the same
basic machine to get advice, and look for oil ports (little balls). Get
a pointy-tipped oil can and shoot some oil in them on a regular basis.
Way oil is good for the ways; ask around about the spindle.

Bill

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:02:13 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth:

In article ,
JR North wrote:

Gezzus. John can't even type 'Enco' into google. Look out, world.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

642,000 hits for the term "enco." (sans quotes and period) Fortunately
the first two were the right two.

I'm amazed at the fact that MSC and Enco haven't bought and don't use
their shorter URLs. www.Use-Enco.com and www.MSCdirect.com aren't
exactly the most intuitive of URLs for the companies, are they?
sigh


--
"Menja bé, caga fort!"

The way the internet works now for all the larger more common companies
you don't need to put in the URL. I just put my mouse pointer in the URL
space bar and hit enter and it turns whatever URL that is there blue and I
type whoever I want and it usually automatically will go that site. I just
type in enco and it takes me to Encos site. Same with most sites I want to
visit.
Dick

--
Richard H. Neighbors
Building and repairing fine billiard cues for real pool players at
affordable prices.
Over 35 years exp. Located in Cincinnati OH
ph.# 513 233-7499
e-mail
web site http://www.dickiecues.com
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:02:13 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, John
Husvar quickly quoth:

In article ,
JR North wrote:

Gezzus. John can't even type 'Enco' into google. Look out, world.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

642,000 hits for the term "enco." (sans quotes and period) Fortunately
the first two were the right two.

I'm amazed at the fact that MSC and Enco haven't bought and don't use
their shorter URLs. www.Use-Enco.com and www.MSCdirect.com aren't
exactly the most intuitive of URLs for the companies, are they?
sigh


--
"Menja bé, caga fort!"