Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


Between the two, I currently don't hold much hope for getting rid of
the damned things, though I wish I could. I managed to cold-turkey off
ritalyn years ago - Four days of being afraid I was going to die,
immediately followed by about two weeks of wishing I'd died back on
about day two - I got "the works" from that... the critters, the
projectile vomiting, the demons and even less-namable shapes jumping
around and screaming at me non-stop... It was truly ugly. I didn't
find out until afterwards that it's classed as being just slightly
less addictive than heroin or cocaine, but being out of it, with no
realistic source, I got through it. I managed to get off that, but
cigarettes seem to have me by the balls.

Don,
I just finished a sixteen week graduate studies program on addiction.
You got my attention when you said:

"Four days of being afraid I was going to die,
immediately followed by about two weeks of wishing I'd died back on
about day two"

These exact words were in most of the patient studies for opiates and
psychotropics.
ALL of the patients had been introduced to their addictive drugs by their
physicians.
Of the patient interviews with actual people, Oxycontin was the common
denominator. Nasty stuff.
If you ever find yourself medicated for pain it is essential that the meds
be stopped ASAP within reason and preferably under a doctors care.
If you can do without - do so.
That having been said, the only addiction that will actually cause death if
the drug is suddenly stopped is also the most easily obtained - alcohol. No
****.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

In article ,
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


Between the two, I currently don't hold much hope for getting rid of
the damned things, though I wish I could. I managed to cold-turkey off
ritalyn years ago - Four days of being afraid I was going to die,
immediately followed by about two weeks of wishing I'd died back on
about day two - I got "the works" from that... the critters, the
projectile vomiting, the demons and even less-namable shapes jumping
around and screaming at me non-stop... It was truly ugly. I didn't
find out until afterwards that it's classed as being just slightly
less addictive than heroin or cocaine, but being out of it, with no
realistic source, I got through it. I managed to get off that, but
cigarettes seem to have me by the balls.

Don,
I just finished a sixteen week graduate studies program on addiction.
You got my attention when you said:

"Four days of being afraid I was going to die,
immediately followed by about two weeks of wishing I'd died back on
about day two"

These exact words were in most of the patient studies for opiates and
psychotropics.
ALL of the patients had been introduced to their addictive drugs by their
physicians.
Of the patient interviews with actual people, Oxycontin was the common
denominator. Nasty stuff.

Well, in all honesty, mine was "self-inflicted" - I stumbled onto the
knowledge that I liked the effects of ritalyn real well. TOO well... For
several months, I had a pretty much "all you can eat" supply, and went
through 'em about like M&Ms. Then the supply dried up, and the fun
began...

If you ever find yourself medicated for pain it is essential that the meds
be stopped ASAP within reason and preferably under a doctors care.
If you can do without - do so.

Oddly enough, I've never been much for downers. I've played with several
of them over the years, but that's all it ever was - "playing". The only
one of the group that held any interest at all for me was years ago, and
it was "just plain old" opium. All "denial" aside, I didn't like it for
the buzz (Basically, I got sleepy... Big deal...) so much as because it
smelled and tasted *SO* nice when you crumbled a small pinch into a
joint of even the crappiest homegrown weed.

Somewhere around here, I've got *AT LEAST* four 10 day supplies of
Vicodin left over from wisdom tooth extractions, separated shoulders,
blown-out knees, and sprained ankles, each with one dose actually taken
- I just don't like the way it hits me.

I know they put expiration dates on those things, but I can't help but
wonder how long they *REALLY* remain useful when stored properly sealed,
in the dark, etc. etc. etc...

Guess I probably won't be turning into a skag-head anytime soon, eh?

That having been said, the only addiction that will actually cause death if
the drug is suddenly stopped is also the most easily obtained - alcohol. No
****.

Yep, I've heard more than once about the DTs being fatal in some cases.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


I know they put expiration dates on those things, but I can't help but
wonder how long they *REALLY* remain useful when stored properly
sealed, in the dark, etc. etc. etc...

Long, very long, and all you need do is pull a vaccuum on a plastic bag then
put them in the freezer.
The active ingredients are UV sensitive and they react with each other and
the atmosphere. You end up with reacted salts.



Guess I probably won't be turning into a skag-head anytime soon, eh?

Probably not :)
Heroin was legal here until it became apparent that having a significant
part of the populace addicted wasn't working.
Who knew? If you ever decide to do permanent damage to your brain from one
or two uses go with ecstacy. The latest info on Meth seems to indicate
something rather frightening and very unique. You didn't like opium because
you were not associating it with an existing pleasurable behavior. When you
changed that, you found it pleasant and it was the euphoria the drug
produced. You associated that with the smell and the taste and the
experience changed. At some point you would have dropped the crutch that the
weed really was. Meth seems not to be like that. You need no associated
behavior and therefore don't need to "learn" to "enjoy" it. You can become
addicted the very first time. I know that sounds unlikely and you will
probably be reminded of bs statements to keep kids from even trying stuff
but it is increasingly being accepted that methamphetamines are unique.
Scary.



Yep, I've heard more than once about the DTs being fatal in some
cases.

It's a little more complicated than that but the DT's are a symptom that
indicates another condition.
Death is frequently not preceeded by those symptoms.

Anyway, if you really want to quit smoking you can. The physiological
symptoms can be surpressed to some degree and if you follow a regimen and
replace the physical pleasure of holding and playing with a butt you will
stop. The big hurdle for you, and me BTW, is really wanting to do it.

--
John R. Carroll
Machining Solution Software, Inc.
Los Angeles San Francisco
www.machiningsolution.com

"John R. Carroll" wrote in message
...
snip-

Anyway, if you really want to quit smoking you can. The physiological
symptoms can be surpressed to some degree and if you follow a regimen and
replace the physical pleasure of holding and playing with a butt you will
stop. The big hurdle for you, and me BTW, is really wanting to do it.


Yep! I smoked my pipes for something like 20 years before a bleeding ulcer
gave me good reason to back off. To this day, certain activities make it
difficult to not grab one and light up. Running my mill, for one. I can't
speak for cigarette smokers, but pipe smokers often have an affair of sorts
with their pipe(s). They become a warm and faithful companion. Old habits
die hard.

Quitting after smoking for years??-----I agree-it's a decision one makes,
but you have to be honest with yourself and really want to. If you're the
kind that's inclined to cheat at solitaire, you're unlikely to succeed.

My father (now deceased) smoked for something like 30 years. One day,
after stopping off at the local pub for a brew on a Saturday afternoon , was
on his way home when he reached in his pocket for a smoke. Pulled the pack
out, looked at it, then tossed it out the window and never touched smokes
again, ever. For what ever reason, that day he made up his mind to quit,
and he did. We Greeks have a strong constitution, it would appear! g

Harold

In article ,
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"John R. Carroll" wrote:

Don Bruder wrote:
In article ,
"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote:


I know they put expiration dates on those things, but I can't help but
wonder how long they *REALLY* remain useful when stored properly
sealed, in the dark, etc. etc. etc...

Long, very long, and all you need do is pull a vaccuum on a plastic bag then
put them in the freezer.
The active ingredients are UV sensitive and they react with each other and
the atmosphere. You end up with reacted salts.



Guess I probably won't be turning into a skag-head anytime soon, eh?

Probably not :)
Heroin was legal here until it became apparent that having a significant
part of the populace addicted wasn't working.
Who knew? If you ever decide to do permanent damage to your brain from one
or two uses go with ecstacy.

Thanks, but no thanks... These days, other than cigarettes, I'm 100%
"Mr. Natural" all the way. A little light cannabis use, and every once
in a while a beer, maybe two, with the very rare shot of booze. (most
often, Jack Daniels, straight up).

The latest info on Meth seems to indicate
something rather frightening and very unique.

Meth is weird in many ways - as I experienced firsthand back about the
same era when I was playing with ritalyn. I noticed right off the bat
that I liked it a bit too much for comfort, and bailed out of that scene
quick.

You didn't like opium because
you were not associating it with an existing pleasurable behavior. When you
changed that, you found it pleasant and it was the euphoria the drug
produced. You associated that with the smell and the taste and the
experience changed.

Ehhh... If you say so... As I said (with no intent to delude myself or
anyone else) I liked the smell and flavor. The actual effects didn't do
diddly for me in terms of "interest", with or without weed. Whether
mixed with grass, or as a smoldering chunk on a pin, the stuff just
plain smells WONDERFUL when burning. If it were cheaper and more
available, I wouldn't object to simply burning it as incense, without
making any effort to actually "use" it. The handful of times I had
enough available for "straight" use, I quickly figured out that I didn't
care for the buzz (Basically, it felt like the end of a night spent
smoking too much pot, just before I'd crawl off to the bedroom to pass
out, only without the "fun" part of a pot buzz before the "burn-out"
sets in), but that the aroma and flavor were lovely.

At some point you would have dropped the crutch that the
weed really was.

Nah, not likely. Opium was a "special treat" type thing. The weed was
"meat-n-potatoes".

Meth seems not to be like that. You need no associated
behavior and therefore don't need to "learn" to "enjoy" it. You can become
addicted the very first time. I know that sounds unlikely and you will
probably be reminded of bs statements to keep kids from even trying stuff
but it is increasingly being accepted that methamphetamines are unique.

The whole methoxylated amphetamine series is bizarre in many ways - One
of 'em (I keep wanting to call it "Baumer's compound", even though I'm
certain that's not right) is functional as an elephant tranquilizer in
LSD-like (AKA "Ultra-tiny" - tens of micrograms/kg) doses. Others, like
the one in nutmeg, are massively powerful hallucinogens - An ounce or so
of nutmeg in applesauce once sent me on a three-day trip through
la-la-land that featured visions so clear and real that I was literally
bouncing off the walls as I tried to walk into the nonexistant
landscapes I was seeing - But then, with nutmeg, there's the downside:
SOMETHING about it plays royal hell with muscle control - When I wasn't
trying to walk through walls into landscapes that didn't exist, I had a
hard time managing to stand up. A sort of chemically-induced St. Vitus
Dance crossed with a good working case of lockjaw is the closest
description I can come up with.

Then there's the always-interesting possibility, under zero tolerance
regulations, of getting yourself arrested for baking a traditional-style
pumpkin pie - If you use the usual spices, including nutmeg and allspice
(both from the same source, by the way, just different parts of the
plant) you're technically guilty of manufacturing at least four
specifically forbidden, and possibly as many as 8 "borderline"
methamphetamine variants in small quantities...

(Yes, I was, and still am, a knowledgable "doper" - I didn't (and don't)
indiscriminately eat, snort, smoke, etc whatever came along without
knowing, at least to some extent, what to expect, how it was thought to
work, after-effects, in some cases the how-to-make, chemical composition
and molecular layout, etc)

Scary.

Indeed. I look back on those years and wonder how I managed to survive
some of my "adventures in recreational pharmaceuticals" without growing
a monkey the size of King Kong on my back...

Anyway, if you really want to quit smoking you can. The physiological
symptoms can be surpressed to some degree and if you follow a regimen and
replace the physical pleasure of holding and playing with a butt you will
stop. The big hurdle for you, and me BTW, is really wanting to do it.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.

Don Bruder wrote:

snip

Then there's the always-interesting possibility, under zero tolerance
regulations, of getting yourself arrested for baking a traditional-style
pumpkin pie - If you use the usual spices, including nutmeg and allspice
(both from the same source, by the way, just different parts of the
plant) you're technically guilty of manufacturing at least four
specifically forbidden, and possibly as many as 8 "borderline"
methamphetamine variants in small quantities...

Wrong about that. Nutmeg and mace are different parts of the same fruit. Mace is
the lace-like "veins" that surround the nutmeg. Allspice is an entirely different
plant; it just has a very similar taste to nutmeg.

Ah, the fun days (what I can remember).

Joe