hi
I need to put together a 1" square tube 14 ga. stand. since I cant weld will
silver solder work or do I need to find a welder?
thanks
Dom

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hi
I need to put together a 1" square tube 14 ga. stand. since I cant weld
will silver solder work or do I need to find a welder?
thanks
Dom


I'd pick brazing myself if I couldn't weld it. What kind of torch do you
have?
And what is your location, you might find someone here who'd do it for you
relatively inexpensively.
Lane

On Wed, 4 May 2005 20:12:39 -0400, "Dominic Palazzola"
wrote:

thank you for the input. so any of you fellas in s.e. Michigan?



I'm in Windsor. I'd be happy to weld it for you (No Charge)
if you want to cross the river? Beers may be required tho'.

For a strength of joints, welding comes first, followed by a good braze and
then silver soldering. Getting the braze or solder into a substantial joint
may make the joint almost as strong as a weld joint but any voids will
decrease the strength. The brazed joint is of a stronger metal than a
silver solder joint so the tear strength will be higher with the brazed
joint.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Also be advised that soldering or brazing in this context does not imply
with a "soldering iron". The work must be clean and heated with a torch to
the liquidus temperature of the silver braze (silver solder) chosen. Two
basic types are the 4 - 6 % silver type, sometimes referred to as "silver
bearing" solder, and the higher silver content type, usu. ranging upwards to
45% silver. The latter type is more expensive but quite a bit stronger and
requires a higher temperature, usu. in the range of 1100 to 1300 deg. F. Do
a "Google" check on the subject. IMO, the lower temperature, silver-bearing
solder, is sufficient for most jobs. I would not be afraid to join square
tubing with it, unless there was a terrific amount of lateral strain
involved.

Bob Swinney

"Bob May" wrote in message
...
For a strength of joints, welding comes first, followed by a good braze
and
then silver soldering. Getting the braze or solder into a substantial
joint
may make the joint almost as strong as a weld joint but any voids will
decrease the strength. The brazed joint is of a stronger metal than a
silver solder joint so the tear strength will be higher with the brazed
joint.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

On Tue, 3 May 2005 21:44:04 -0700, "Lane" lane (no spam) at
copperaccents dot com wrote:


"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hi
I need to put together a 1" square tube 14 ga. stand. since I cant weld
will silver solder work or do I need to find a welder?
thanks
Dom


I'd pick brazing myself if I couldn't weld it. What kind of torch do you
have?
And what is your location, you might find someone here who'd do it for you
relatively inexpensively.
Lane

Silversolder is a brazing material. It will work here if you have
overlapping joints or tabs with some joint surface area. It's not
as good as welding for butt joints or T joints.

Someone in your area must have a wirefeed welder. This is a very
suitable job for a small MIG.

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
hi
I need to put together a 1" square tube 14 ga. stand. since I cant weld
will silver solder work or do I need to find a welder?
thanks
Dom

Dom,

It might be helpful to know what this stand is to be used for. If holding a
vase of silk flowers, then silver solder should be fine. If to support a
heavy machine, or in any application where a person might get injured if the
joints failed, I'd say weld it.

Regards,
Michael

thanks alot for the replies. I just have a torch to use maybe map gas is
better then propane, can I braze with just a torch and can I braze in my
basement? I checked with the steel place and they said the 1" stock is an
1/8" thick not sure what gauge that is. im making a drum sander so I would
guess the total weight will be 75 lbs. maybe lighter.
basically its going to be a 32" high table by about 30" wide and 48" long.
thanks again
Dom


"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...
hi
I need to put together a 1" square tube 14 ga. stand. since I cant weld
will silver solder work or do I need to find a welder?
thanks
Dom

Dom,

It might be helpful to know what this stand is to be used for. If holding
a vase of silk flowers, then silver solder should be fine. If to support a
heavy machine, or in any application where a person might get injured if
the joints failed, I'd say weld it.

Regards,
Michael

I am not sure that you can braze or solder 1/8" stock with a MAPP
torch. Can you bolt your joints? That would be very strong and much
easier.

JW

Bob May wrote:

...
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...htm?list146784

Winds also play a key role in ozone destruction.

The cold air over Antarctica in winter creates a huge "whirlpool"
of fast-moving air circling Antarctica called the "Antarctic
vortex."

This vortex effectively insulates Antarctica from the rest of the
atmosphere.

"It forms up almost as a whirlpool that sits there and is very
stable. It locks in that body of air and it keeps the outside
high-ozone air from coming in," McPeters said.

Most stratospheric ozone is created in the tropics, because
the intensity of the solar radiation that causes formation
of ozone is higher nearer the equator. The ozone is then
transported by stratospheric air currents to the Arctic and
to Antarctica.

The strong and stable vortex prevents the migration of ozone
into the stratosphere over Antarctica, exacerbating the low
levels caused by the ice crystal-catalyzed destruction of ozone.

"The (Antarctic) vortex sets up in the (Southern Hemisphere's)
fall and runs all winter," Newchurch said. "The ozone depletion
occurs in the springtime when sunlight becomes available. Then
toward the end of the spring the vortex breaks down, and over
the summer there really isn't a vortex. And then it sets up
again the next fall."

A similar vortex forms around the Arctic, but "atmospheric waves"
caused by landmasses with high mountain ranges in the Northern
Hemisphere frequently push the vortex off the pole, allowing
warmer air into the Arctic.

The relative warmth of the Arctic is the main reason why a similar
ozone hole doesn't form over the North Pole.


You're welcome.

--

FF

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...

I just have a torch to use maybe map gas is better then propane

MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. So by that metric, it is "better" than
propane.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...parisons.jhtml


can I braze with just a torch and can I braze in my basement?

Yes, a good pressure-regulated swirl-flame torch can be used for brazing as
long as the heat output is sufficient for the job (depending on the size and
material of the parts being brazed, and the brazing rod being used). Whether
it's possible or feasible for your job, I don't know.

As for brazing in your basement, I'd be cautious. One, you'd need to be sure
there is plenty of ventalation. Second, you'd need to make sure there are no
sources for flammable vapors (like old paints or other chemicals). Realize
that many flammable vapors are heavier than air and will accumulate in low
places (like basement floors). If it were me, I'd do the work in a more open
area and then move the table into the basement.


I checked with the steel place and they said the 1" stock is an 1/8" thick
not sure what gauge that is.

That's very thick metal for brazing with a simple air-burning torch, even
using MAPP. I suspect you'd need an oxy-acetalene rig for brazing tubing
that thick. MIG welding would be far easier and stronger.


im making a drum sander so I would guess the
total weight will be 75 lbs. maybe lighter.
basically its going to be a 32" high table
by about 30" wide and 48" long.

Ok, you need to think about two things besides simply the weight of the
sander. First, this is a power tool, and thus you're not just dealing with
static loads, you have to consider dynamic loads as well. For example, if
you're sanding or buffing a part and the machine "grabs" the work, your
table could be subjected to a very large impulse force. That would be a bad
time to have your table collapse. Second, a table of that size is much
larger than what's needed by a drum sander. Which means it's likely you will
put a lot more stuff on it (either additional tools or parts that you're
working on). So now, you're subjecting the stand to a lot more weight than
just the drum sander. Plus, if you use the table for hammering parts, etc.,
well, I think you get the point.

Again, I would recommend MIG welding. Another poster suggested bolting the
table together, and that would be a viable secondary option. But MIG welding
it will likely be easier, cheaper, and stronger.

If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'd be happy to do it for you for
a nominal fee. If you post your location, there's a good possibility someone
on this list will be able to assist you. If not, you should still consider
hiring out the job to a weldor in your local area. It shouldn't cost too
much (probably on par with buying bottles of MAPP gas and brazing rods).

Regards,
Michael

ok then what do I need to braze with?
"jw" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am not sure that you can braze or solder 1/8" stock with a MAPP
torch. Can you bolt your joints? That would be very strong and much
easier.

JW

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...

I just have a torch to use maybe map gas is better then propane

That's very thick metal for brazing with a simple air-burning torch,
even using MAPP. I suspect you'd need an oxy-acetalene rig for brazing
tubing that thick. MIG welding would be far easier and stronger.

Before all the oxy-acetylene weldors out there jump all over me, what I
meant was that MIG welding would be easier and stronger than OA *brazing*.
Of course, if the original poster had an OA rig available, he could simply
use it to weld the table frame together. But that point is academic.

- Michael

ok so you guys convinced me that the silver solder is not going to work in
this application. what about this welder?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44567

does mig welding produce the bright hot flash that arc welding does? bottom
line do I need a welding hood or goggles?




"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...

I just have a torch to use maybe map gas is better then propane

MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. So by that metric, it is "better" than
propane.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...parisons.jhtml


can I braze with just a torch and can I braze in my basement?

Yes, a good pressure-regulated swirl-flame torch can be used for brazing
as long as the heat output is sufficient for the job (depending on the
size and material of the parts being brazed, and the brazing rod being
used). Whether it's possible or feasible for your job, I don't know.

As for brazing in your basement, I'd be cautious. One, you'd need to be
sure there is plenty of ventalation. Second, you'd need to make sure there
are no sources for flammable vapors (like old paints or other chemicals).
Realize that many flammable vapors are heavier than air and will
accumulate in low places (like basement floors). If it were me, I'd do the
work in a more open area and then move the table into the basement.


I checked with the steel place and they said the 1" stock is an 1/8"
thick not sure what gauge that is.

That's very thick metal for brazing with a simple air-burning torch, even
using MAPP. I suspect you'd need an oxy-acetalene rig for brazing tubing
that thick. MIG welding would be far easier and stronger.


im making a drum sander so I would guess the
total weight will be 75 lbs. maybe lighter.
basically its going to be a 32" high table
by about 30" wide and 48" long.

Ok, you need to think about two things besides simply the weight of the
sander. First, this is a power tool, and thus you're not just dealing with
static loads, you have to consider dynamic loads as well. For example, if
you're sanding or buffing a part and the machine "grabs" the work, your
table could be subjected to a very large impulse force. That would be a
bad time to have your table collapse. Second, a table of that size is much
larger than what's needed by a drum sander. Which means it's likely you
will put a lot more stuff on it (either additional tools or parts that
you're working on). So now, you're subjecting the stand to a lot more
weight than just the drum sander. Plus, if you use the table for hammering
parts, etc., well, I think you get the point.

Again, I would recommend MIG welding. Another poster suggested bolting the
table together, and that would be a viable secondary option. But MIG
welding it will likely be easier, cheaper, and stronger.

If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'd be happy to do it for you
for a nominal fee. If you post your location, there's a good possibility
someone on this list will be able to assist you. If not, you should still
consider hiring out the job to a weldor in your local area. It shouldn't
cost too much (probably on par with buying bottles of MAPP gas and brazing
rods).

Regards,
Michael

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...
ok so you guys convinced me that the silver solder is not going to work in
this application. what about this welder?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44567

does mig welding produce the bright hot flash that arc welding does?
bottom line do I need a welding hood or goggles?


Bottom line in buying welding eqiupment, you get what you pay for. HF is
cheap and generally made in China. And yes, any type of welding requires eye
and hand protection.
Are you going to do enough welding to warrant a major purchase? If not, seek
out a welder in your area.

Lane

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...

ok so you guys convinced me that the silver solder is not going to work
in this application. what about this welder?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44567

does mig welding produce the bright hot flash that arc welding does?
bottom line do I need a welding hood or goggles?


*All* welding requires shaded eye protection, whether you use gas or
electricity!

MIG welding is simply a specialized form of electric arc welding. And with
any type of electric arc welding, not only must you shield your eyes from
the intense light and the UV radiation, but you also need to shield your
face, hands, arms, etc., from spattering molten metal. So a welding hood is
a requirement, as are leather welding gloves, and -- at a minimum --
flame-retardant protective coveralls (serious weldors will invest in leather
welding jackets and other protective gear). Of course, you also have to be
careful of spattering hot metal igniting flammables in your work area. And
you need to avoid breathing the welding fumes, especially if welding zinc
galvanized metal.

MIG welding is not particularly difficult. But like many shop operations, it
can be very dangerous if the proper procedures and precautions are not
followed. If you intend to buy your own MIG welder, I suggest you take a
class first. If that's not feasible, then at least buy a good training video
and a book to study first.

As for the machines, that Harbor Freight welder is not a "true" MIG welder,
as it only works with flux-cored wire. A "true" MIG welder uses a bottle of
commpressed inert gas (hence the name "MIG -- Metal Inert Gas") to shield
the molten weld pool from oxidation. While flux-core wire can be used to
achieve the same effect, there are disadvantages (including the higher cost
of the wire).

I have no experience or knowledge of the HF line of low-cost welders, but as
they say "you get what you pay for". I am not a critic of Harbor Freight (in
fact, I've bought many decent tools from them), but I'd cast a very critical
eye towards those MIG welders. The problem for you is, with no experience
with MIG welding, how can you accurately judge the quality and features of
those machines?

I don't want to discourage you from learning a new trade and buying a new
toy, err...tool. But I don't think this is something you should rush into
without more knowledge and experience.

Regards,
Michael

thank you for the input. so any of you fellas in s.e. Michigan?


"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...

ok so you guys convinced me that the silver solder is not going to work
in this application. what about this welder?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44567

does mig welding produce the bright hot flash that arc welding does?
bottom line do I need a welding hood or goggles?


*All* welding requires shaded eye protection, whether you use gas or
electricity!

MIG welding is simply a specialized form of electric arc welding. And with
any type of electric arc welding, not only must you shield your eyes from
the intense light and the UV radiation, but you also need to shield your
face, hands, arms, etc., from spattering molten metal. So a welding hood
is a requirement, as are leather welding gloves, and -- at a minimum --
flame-retardant protective coveralls (serious weldors will invest in
leather welding jackets and other protective gear). Of course, you also
have to be careful of spattering hot metal igniting flammables in your
work area. And you need to avoid breathing the welding fumes, especially
if welding zinc galvanized metal.

MIG welding is not particularly difficult. But like many shop operations,
it can be very dangerous if the proper procedures and precautions are not
followed. If you intend to buy your own MIG welder, I suggest you take a
class first. If that's not feasible, then at least buy a good training
video and a book to study first.

As for the machines, that Harbor Freight welder is not a "true" MIG
welder, as it only works with flux-cored wire. A "true" MIG welder uses a
bottle of commpressed inert gas (hence the name "MIG -- Metal Inert Gas")
to shield the molten weld pool from oxidation. While flux-core wire can be
used to achieve the same effect, there are disadvantages (including the
higher cost of the wire).

I have no experience or knowledge of the HF line of low-cost welders, but
as they say "you get what you pay for". I am not a critic of Harbor
Freight (in fact, I've bought many decent tools from them), but I'd cast a
very critical eye towards those MIG welders. The problem for you is, with
no experience with MIG welding, how can you accurately judge the quality
and features of those machines?

I don't want to discourage you from learning a new trade and buying a new
toy, err...tool. But I don't think this is something you should rush into
without more knowledge and experience.

Regards,
Michael

"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in message
...

thank you for the input. so any of you fellas in s.e. Michigan?

No problem. I hope I wasn't too discouraging (regarding buying your own MIG
welder).

Here's a suggestion: whether you can find someone on this NG to assist you,
or if you have to hire out the job to a local shop, perhaps you could
arrange to watch the job (and maybe even get a little hands-on practice).
Watching and learning from a pro (or even an experienced hobbyist) will go a
long way towards getting you the experience you'll want if you choose to buy
your own MIG welder in the future. It might mean that you'll have to buy
your own hood, but you'll need one anyway if you're going to be doing this
yourself later.

Regards,
Michael

no you where not discouraging I really do appreciate the input, I sort of
knew most of this that's why I was thinking the soldering vs. welding.
"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...

thank you for the input. so any of you fellas in s.e. Michigan?

No problem. I hope I wasn't too discouraging (regarding buying your own
MIG welder).

Here's a suggestion: whether you can find someone on this NG to assist
you, or if you have to hire out the job to a local shop, perhaps you could
arrange to watch the job (and maybe even get a little hands-on practice).
Watching and learning from a pro (or even an experienced hobbyist) will go
a long way towards getting you the experience you'll want if you choose to
buy your own MIG welder in the future. It might mean that you'll have to
buy your own hood, but you'll need one anyway if you're going to be doing
this yourself later.

Regards,
Michael

Don't be convinced that Silver soldering is not going to work too
quickly. Take a look at the Hardy and Handy meb site. Hard silver
solder can have a strength of about 100,000 psi in a lap joint. Silver
solder is ( or at least was the last I knew ) permitted to use on US
Navy submarines for thru hull fittings. They don't like it because it
is hard to verify the work with NDT. But it is plenty strong.

A propane torch can be used for hard silver soldering, but you have to
be ingenious in keeping the heat where it is needed. You would not be
able to do it with propane in the open air.


Dan

Dominic Palazzola wrote:
ok then what do I need to braze with?
"jw" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am not sure that you can braze or solder 1/8" stock with a MAPP
torch. Can you bolt your joints? That would be very strong and
much
easier.

JW


You will need a torch that will heat the joint above the melting point
of the brazing metal, preferably an oxy-acetylene rig. The small
torches work fine for small work, but don't have the BTU's to heat a
larger piece of metal. I built a set of workbench legs out of 1-1/2"
square tubing by brazing with brass. That was over forty years ago and
I still work on that bench nearly every day. Silver solder would be
needlessly expensive for a project like this.
Bugs

Dominic Palazzola wrote:
ok then what do I need to braze with?
"jw" wrote in message
ps.com...
I am not sure that you can braze or solder 1/8" stock with a MAPP
torch. Can you bolt your joints? That would be very strong and
much
easier.

JW

"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...


-- at a minimum --
flame-retardant protective coveralls (serious weldors will invest in
leather welding jackets and other protective gear).

Maybe for overhead stick welding, but you don't need leathers (aside from
gloves) for welding 1/8" steel with MIG.

On Wed, 4 May 2005 19:30:21 -0400, "Dominic Palazzola"
wrote:

ok so you guys convinced me that the silver solder is not going to work in
this application. what about this welder?
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44567


I used one for a couple years before getting serious about welding..it
works well enough on stuff up to about 1/4" thick.

does mig welding produce the bright hot flash that arc welding does? bottom
line do I need a welding hood or goggles?

Yes indeed it does. The general consensus is that this is THE mask to
get
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=91212

Gunner





"DeepDiver" wrote in message
...
"Dominic Palazzola" wrote in
message ...

I just have a torch to use maybe map gas is better then propane

MAPP gas burns hotter than propane. So by that metric, it is "better" than
propane.

http://www.bernzomatic.com/bernzomat...parisons.jhtml


can I braze with just a torch and can I braze in my basement?

Yes, a good pressure-regulated swirl-flame torch can be used for brazing
as long as the heat output is sufficient for the job (depending on the
size and material of the parts being brazed, and the brazing rod being
used). Whether it's possible or feasible for your job, I don't know.

As for brazing in your basement, I'd be cautious. One, you'd need to be
sure there is plenty of ventalation. Second, you'd need to make sure there
are no sources for flammable vapors (like old paints or other chemicals).
Realize that many flammable vapors are heavier than air and will
accumulate in low places (like basement floors). If it were me, I'd do the
work in a more open area and then move the table into the basement.


I checked with the steel place and they said the 1" stock is an 1/8"
thick not sure what gauge that is.

That's very thick metal for brazing with a simple air-burning torch, even
using MAPP. I suspect you'd need an oxy-acetalene rig for brazing tubing
that thick. MIG welding would be far easier and stronger.


im making a drum sander so I would guess the
total weight will be 75 lbs. maybe lighter.
basically its going to be a 32" high table
by about 30" wide and 48" long.

Ok, you need to think about two things besides simply the weight of the
sander. First, this is a power tool, and thus you're not just dealing with
static loads, you have to consider dynamic loads as well. For example, if
you're sanding or buffing a part and the machine "grabs" the work, your
table could be subjected to a very large impulse force. That would be a
bad time to have your table collapse. Second, a table of that size is much
larger than what's needed by a drum sander. Which means it's likely you
will put a lot more stuff on it (either additional tools or parts that
you're working on). So now, you're subjecting the stand to a lot more
weight than just the drum sander. Plus, if you use the table for hammering
parts, etc., well, I think you get the point.

Again, I would recommend MIG welding. Another poster suggested bolting the
table together, and that would be a viable secondary option. But MIG
welding it will likely be easier, cheaper, and stronger.

If you live in the San Francisco Bay Area, I'd be happy to do it for you
for a nominal fee. If you post your location, there's a good possibility
someone on this list will be able to assist you. If not, you should still
consider hiring out the job to a weldor in your local area. It shouldn't
cost too much (probably on par with buying bottles of MAPP gas and brazing
rods).

Regards,
Michael



Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli