I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version of
personal air purifiers? They are also sold as usb port plug ins to
purify the air near your computer...and, still others are sold to
purify the air in your car. They are sometimes called negative ion
generators and the sellers claim that breathing the ozone they produce
is supposed to improve your health:: They usually include 'piezo' in
the title of the product.

"Piezo" comes from the method used to produce high voltage, which
produces the ozone (or negative ions as the sellers like to put it).
Piezo technology means piezotransformer or piezoelectric transformer
or piezo transformer, they go by a few different names. I'm fascinated
by these devices and want to learn more, especially regarding the
drivers.

I was wondering whether anyone had taken any of these units apart or
whether there are any websites dedicated to sharing information about
these new technology high voltage generators?

M

Mebart wrote in message
...
I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version of
personal air purifiers? They are also sold as usb port plug ins to
purify the air near your computer...and, still others are sold to
purify the air in your car. They are sometimes called negative ion
generators and the sellers claim that breathing the ozone they produce
is supposed to improve your health:: They usually include 'piezo' in
the title of the product.

"Piezo" comes from the method used to produce high voltage, which
produces the ozone (or negative ions as the sellers like to put it).
Piezo technology means piezotransformer or piezoelectric transformer
or piezo transformer, they go by a few different names. I'm fascinated
by these devices and want to learn more, especially regarding the
drivers.

I was wondering whether anyone had taken any of these units apart or
whether there are any websites dedicated to sharing information about
these new technology high voltage generators?

In one dept at work, a lady has some allergy, so she has to run this
'air purifier'. I went in there to do some work, and my eyes started
burning. The ozone smell was awful. I told them that ozone is bad for
you when it's this strong, and ozone is one of the bad components of
smog. Later when I had some time, I did a web search for ozone and air
purifiers, and I found that some of these supposedly air purifiers put
out way too much ozone and pollute tha air. I suggest you check those
out to find out more about the bad effects of breathing ozone.

As for piezo transformers, they seem to be a cheaper way of doing what
has been done for more than a hundred years, with simply a lot of very
thin wire and some iron for the core to wind it on. You can make tens
of thousands of volts with a flyback and tripler.

Also some sellers make claims about their products that are
unsubstantiated, such as their effectiveness in a large area. If you
use one of these small devices in a small closed room, they may be
effective, but if they're in a cubicle in a large room, it's doubtful
they can be of any halp.

M

Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the ozone
matter.

The short version is that no ozone level is safe-the EPA has stopped
just short of this declaration because they have a mandate to keep the
air clean and they can't admit that they aren't doing their mandated
function::

I read all the ebay auctions for these devices, and they all have
ozone sections, claiming that the units they sell only produce XX
units of ozone.....but they leave out the part about the volume of air
that the results are spec'd for. Obviously I can put a small ozone
generator in a large auditorium and measure no increase in ozone. But
leaving out the volume of the room where the results were obtained is
like measuring the carbon monoxide output of an engine that's upwind
of the measuring device...'nuff said.

Somehow though, people continue to pay for these things, so the
auction prices never drop low enough for me to afford to buy any to
dissect. As PTB said, "there is a sucker born every minute".

The Customs department confiscates these things as they catch them
coming into the US, and the FDA shuts down sellers when they find
them. But, small time sellers (such as ebay sellers) fly under the
radar and seem to get away with it.

I'm interested in the driver circuit itself, which doesn't seem to be
documented. I know about the constant current mode which varies the
frequency of the driver in order to regulate the output current. I'm
interested in ultra low power high voltage generation, so want
something that is efficient and runs in constant voltage more (by
fixed frequency operation at the resonant frequency, and by varying
the sine wave input drive signal amplitude). I think driving it with a
sine wave avoids the ZVS problem that plaques square wave input signal
operation. As far as I know, this means 'I have to roll my own'
driver.

My guess is that this is how the personal ozone generators operate,
although they probably aren't as concerned with efficiency of the
driver as I would be.

M


to sned a reeply via emall, use anonymousone aatt thedoghousemail
ddoot ccomm ddoot ccomm

Mebart wrote in message
...

[snip]

The Customs department confiscates these things as they catch them
coming into the US, and the FDA shuts down sellers when they find
them. But, small time sellers (such as ebay sellers) fly under the
radar and seem to get away with it.

Not if you report them. IIRC, Ebay has some clause in their Terms of
Use that says that the seller is not allowed to sell an item that breaks
the law. Things like 'email leads', just another way of saying email
addresses for spammers, are illegal, so some spammers are selling the
service where you pay for so many email blasts, and the seller does the
blasting. But it's still illegal if you go by the law(s) that say that
it's illegal to 'blast' spam to recipients without giving them the
ability to unsubscribe. Anyway, if these ozone devices are prohibited
or confiscated based on some federal law, then if they are reported to
Ebay and the report gives the law that is being broken, they should then
shut down the auction.

For awhile at least, until the BOFH sellers find a way around it.

I'm interested in the driver circuit itself, which doesn't seem to be
documented. I know about the constant current mode which varies the
frequency of the driver in order to regulate the output current. I'm
interested in ultra low power high voltage generation, so want
something that is efficient and runs in constant voltage more (by
fixed frequency operation at the resonant frequency, and by varying
the sine wave input drive signal amplitude). I think driving it with a
sine wave avoids the ZVS problem that plaques square wave input signal
operation. As far as I know, this means 'I have to roll my own'
driver.

From my experience, I would say that after a few tens or hundreds of
hours of operation the dust and pollution buildup reduces the resistance
of the insulation, and causes the high voltage to drop to some
ineffective level. Then it's necessary to clean the dust off, or else
use higher power to overcome the resistive drop. In any case, it seems
that low power has some serious drawbacks.

My guess is that this is how the personal ozone generators operate,
although they probably aren't as concerned with efficiency of the
driver as I would be.

M

Mebart wrote in message ...
Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the ozone
matter.

The short version is that no ozone level is safe-the EPA has stopped
just short of this declaration because they have a mandate to keep the
air clean and they can't admit that they aren't doing their mandated
function::

I read all the ebay auctions for these devices, and they all have
ozone sections, claiming that the units they sell only produce XX
units of ozone.....but they leave out the part about the volume of air
that the results are spec'd for. Obviously I can put a small ozone
generator in a large auditorium and measure no increase in ozone. But
leaving out the volume of the room where the results were obtained is
like measuring the carbon monoxide output of an engine that's upwind
of the measuring device...'nuff said.

Somehow though, people continue to pay for these things, so the
auction prices never drop low enough for me to afford to buy any to
dissect. As PTB said, "there is a sucker born every minute".



They're a bit of a gimmick overall, but people will pay for them because
it's hard to prove whether or not they do any good, and they do mostly at
least filter the air which I suppose is better than nothing.

I have an ozone generator I built a while back which works well for
deoderizing but it's certainly not something I'd want running all the time.
I just put it in a room that's a bit smelly, plug it in, leave the room and
shut the door, then a half hour or so later unplug it and open the window to
air it out, does a nice job for that.

My guess is that this is how the personal ozone generators operate,
although they probably aren't as concerned with efficiency of the
driver as I would be.



You can very effectively generate ozone with a voltage multiplier chain
connected directly to the AC mains, you just need a needle electrode.

On Sat, 28 May 2005 11:53:02 -0400, wrote:

Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the ozone
matter.

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"I'd walk a mile for a Camel, two for a hump."

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:u52me.5099$m%3.4221@trnddc02...

Mebart wrote in message
...
Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the
ozone
matter.

The short version is that no ozone level is safe-the EPA has stopped
just short of this declaration because they have a mandate to keep
the
air clean and they can't admit that they aren't doing their mandated
function::

I read all the ebay auctions for these devices, and they all have
ozone sections, claiming that the units they sell only produce XX
units of ozone.....but they leave out the part about the volume of
air
that the results are spec'd for. Obviously I can put a small ozone
generator in a large auditorium and measure no increase in ozone.
But
leaving out the volume of the room where the results were obtained
is
like measuring the carbon monoxide output of an engine that's upwind
of the measuring device...'nuff said.

Somehow though, people continue to pay for these things, so the
auction prices never drop low enough for me to afford to buy any to
dissect. As PTB said, "there is a sucker born every minute".



They're a bit of a gimmick overall, but people will pay for them
because
it's hard to prove whether or not they do any good, and they do mostly
at
least filter the air which I suppose is better than nothing.

I have an ozone generator I built a while back which works well for
deoderizing but it's certainly not something I'd want running all the
time.
I just put it in a room that's a bit smelly, plug it in, leave the
room and
shut the door, then a half hour or so later unplug it and open the
window to
air it out, does a nice job for that.

Anything that's rubber gets destroyed by ozone. I can leave rubber
bands around a few floppies, and a few months later they fall off, or
worse yet, turn to mush. If I lived and worked out in the countryu the
rubber bands might last for years.

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:O72me.5100$m%3.4605@trnddc02...

My guess is that this is how the personal ozone generators
operate,
although they probably aren't as concerned with efficiency of the
driver as I would be.


You can very effectively generate ozone with a voltage multiplier
chain
connected directly to the AC mains, you just need a needle electrode.

But that (Cockcroft-Walton array) requires many rectifiers and
capacitors. To see a schematic of one go here and click on the link.
http://www.web-ee.com/Schematics/Vol...roft-Walton.ht
m

It's much cheaper if you use a simpler method.

Rich The Newsgroup Wacko wrote:
On Sat, 28 May 2005 11:53:02 -0400, wrote:


Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the ozone
matter.


Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

I had a unit 20 years ago. Sold as an 'air purifier' and 'negative ion
generator'. What it did was ionize dirt particles in the air, the
particles then went looking for a place to ground themselves making a
big ugly black blotch on a nearby wall. Well, the Air was cleaner.

--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"Any sufficiently advanced magick is
indistinguishable from technology."

Rich The Newsgroup Wacko wrote:

On Sat, 28 May 2005 11:53:02 -0400, wrote:


Thanks for writing. I belong to the Indoor Air Quality mailing list
and ozonec is a popular topic, so I'm fairly well versed in the ozone
matter.


Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Also, I used to repair TV's. They are great 'air purifiers' too.

--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"Any sufficiently advanced magick is
indistinguishable from technology."

But that (Cockcroft-Walton array) requires many rectifiers and
capacitors. To see a schematic of one go here and click on the link.
http://www.web-ee.com/Schematics/Vol...roft-Walton.ht
m

It's much cheaper if you use a simpler method.



What's simpler? You can make a driver for a surplus flyback transformer, or
use an oil burner ignition transformer if you can find one of those surplus,
but a multiplier ladder is dirt cheap, I've bought diodes by the hundreds on
ebay for a few dollars, and have seen many similar deals with capacitors.
Should be able to get 5-6kv for 5-10 bucks with some scrounging.

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P



Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking oxygen
molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will break it down
as fast as it forms.

On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:31 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking oxygen
molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will break it down
as fast as it forms.

So, tell me how chlorine, with a molecular weight of 71 (on average),
miraculously levitates to the top of a sea of oxygen, with its molecular
weight of 32, and nitrogen, with a molecular weight of 28?

Or better yet, Freon, which is so dense that it can be literally poured
from one container into another?

And how is it that this chlorine and freon and all those other boogeyman
gases happen to skip past the ozone that's polluting the cities, on their
way to the south pole?

There's no ozone over the south pole because most of the year there's
no sunlight there to make any.

Sigh. I lament the loss of science education these days.

Thanks,
Rich

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:31 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking oxygen
molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will break it down
as fast as it forms.

So, tell me how chlorine, with a molecular weight of 71 (on average),
miraculously levitates to the top of a sea of oxygen, with its molecular
weight of 32, and nitrogen, with a molecular weight of 28?

Or better yet, Freon, which is so dense that it can be literally poured
from one container into another?

Which, of course, explains why the atmosphere has settled into layers of
Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide amoungst others And of course
water never rises higher than sea level.

Robert

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400, R Adsett wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:31 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking oxygen
molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will break it down
as fast as it forms.

So, tell me how chlorine, with a molecular weight of 71 (on average),
miraculously levitates to the top of a sea of oxygen, with its molecular
weight of 32, and nitrogen, with a molecular weight of 28?

Or better yet, Freon, which is so dense that it can be literally poured
from one container into another?

Which, of course, explains why the atmosphere has settled into layers of
Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide amoungst others And of course
water never rises higher than sea level.

Water has a molecular weight of 18, of course it's going to rise. ;-)

--
Keith

On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400, R Adsett wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:31 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks
- maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking
oxygen molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will
break it down as fast as it forms.

So, tell me how chlorine, with a molecular weight of 71 (on average),
miraculously levitates to the top of a sea of oxygen, with its molecular
weight of 32, and nitrogen, with a molecular weight of 28?

Or better yet, Freon, which is so dense that it can be literally poured
from one container into another?

Which, of course, explains why the atmosphere has settled into layers of
Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide amoungst others And of course
water never rises higher than sea level.

Your pulse: 98.6. Very scientific.

Quant Suff!
--
The Pig Bladder from Uranus

In article ,
says...
Your pulse: 98.6. Very scientific.

Beg Pardon? An unusual dialect perhaps? I understand all the words but
I can't make any sense out of the phrase.

Robert

On Sun, 29 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, R Adsett wrote:

In article ,
says...
Your pulse: 98.6. Very scientific.

Beg Pardon? An unusual dialect perhaps? I understand all the words but
I can't make any sense out of the phrase.

....not unusual.

--
Keith

In article , zz
says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 15:10:09 -0400, R Adsett wrote:

In article ,
says...
On Sun, 29 May 2005 00:40:31 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

Somebody should put these guys together with the ozone hole freaks -
maybe they'd average out. ;-P

Plenty of ozone is created in the upper atmosphere by UV striking oxygen
molecules, but high concentrations of chlorine up there will break it down
as fast as it forms.

So, tell me how chlorine, with a molecular weight of 71 (on average),
miraculously levitates to the top of a sea of oxygen, with its molecular
weight of 32, and nitrogen, with a molecular weight of 28?

Or better yet, Freon, which is so dense that it can be literally poured
from one container into another?

Which, of course, explains why the atmosphere has settled into layers of
Nitrogen, Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide amoungst others And of course
water never rises higher than sea level.

Water has a molecular weight of 18, of course it's going to rise. ;-)

A point, definitely a point. Yet somehow it falls back down again.

Robert

There is little use debating whether these gasses can exist in the
upper atmosphere is semi-stable layers. They are there, and will be
there long after man exterminates himself from the Earth.

There is much info about this topic on the internet, their existence
and molecular properties have been verified by sampling the upper
atmosphere and by investigating the response to various wavelengths of
light shined into the layers and reflected from them.

It's not a topic to be debated, they are there, and it's not a fluke.
Google for info if you have questions.

M



On Sun, 29 May 2005 22:28:55 -0400, keith wrote:

On Sun, 29 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, R Adsett wrote:

In article ,
says...
Your pulse: 98.6. Very scientific.

Beg Pardon? An unusual dialect perhaps? I understand all the words but
I can't make any sense out of the phrase.

...not unusual.

Mebart wrote:
I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version of
personal air purifiers?
...

As an asthmatic, I have had much cause to investigate the claims for
these so called "air purifiers". If you want to kill yourself, that's
your business but if anyone insisted on operating one anywhere near me,
I'd sue _and_ call the cops. Go to
http://www.lungusa.org
and enter "ozone" (without quotes) in the search box. Read what it
says. Scarry!!!

Ted

"Ted Edwards" wrote in message
news:d3Nme.32656$tt5.31906@edtnps90...
Mebart wrote:
I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version
of
personal air purifiers?
...

As an asthmatic, I have had much cause to investigate the claims for
these so called "air purifiers". If you want to kill yourself, that's
your business but if anyone insisted on operating one anywhere near
me,
I'd sue _and_ call the cops. Go to
http://www.lungusa.org
and enter "ozone" (without quotes) in the search box. Read what it
says. Scarry!!!

"Scarry", eh? I knew it damaged tissues in high concentrations, but i
didn't think it would leave scar tissue! ;-)

Ted

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...

"Scarry", eh? I knew it damaged tissues in high concentrations, but i
didn't think it would leave scar tissue! ;-)

Well, if it destroys rubber .... !

N

Thanks for writing this Ted, my observations are not nearly as
effective as your comments because you have a health problem that is
exasebbated by ozone. I hope everyone warns their friends. Negative
Ions means the same thing as ozone, so I'm not sure why these devices
are so popular. But, someone has to buy them, or else they wouldn't be
manufactured and sold.

I don't have the URL at this moment, but there is similar information
about ozone on the fda.gov website.

Any amount of ozone is too much, although a small trace amount appears
in the air as a result of static from lightening and other natural
events.

For anyone interested in Indoor Air Quality, there is a fine mailing
list that is semi-moderated (to keep spam out) at yahoo.com. It is
frequented by government specialists, IAQ clean up and consultants and
by average folks who suspect they have a problem or by those who want
to make sure they don't have a problem. Look at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality/

We have a very large and very expensive air filter that uses high
voltage to strip dust particles from the air. It's a top rated
product, but we won't use it.

Regards,

M

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:01 GMT, Ted Edwards
wrote:

Mebart wrote:
I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version of
personal air purifiers?
...

As an asthmatic, I have had much cause to investigate the claims for
these so called "air purifiers". If you want to kill yourself, that's
your business but if anyone insisted on operating one anywhere near me,
I'd sue _and_ call the cops. Go to
http://www.lungusa.org
and enter "ozone" (without quotes) in the search box. Read what it
says. Scarry!!!

Ted

On Sun, 29 May 2005 18:13:06 -0400, R Adsett wrote:
In article ,
says...
Your pulse: 98.6. Very scientific.

Beg Pardon? An unusual dialect perhaps? I understand all the words but I
can't make any sense out of the phrase.

It's from "The Stars My Destination", by Alfred Bester (and yes, I asked,
and the Psy-cop in B5 played by the guy who played "Checkhov" in ST:TOS
(Walter Koenig?) was named in his honor), when Gully Foyle visits "The
Scientific People."

Quant Suff! ;-)
Rich

On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:25:52 -0400, [presumably Mebart] top-posted:

Thanks for writing this Ted, my observations are not nearly as effective
as your comments because you have a health problem that is exasebbated by
ozone. I hope everyone warns their friends. Negative Ions means the same
thing as ozone,

Begging your pardon, but this is simply not true. A negative ion is _any_
atom with an extra electron attached to it (or two, or however many you
can get to stick.) Ozone is a specific compound, chemical formula O3.
Simply a molecule comprising three oxygen atoms.

Mind you, ozone is a _by-product_ whenever there is ion generation going
on, but the idea that "negative ions" and "ozone" are the same is terribly,
deeply, mistaken. My intent here is not to hurt your feelings, but I guess
I'd have to say I'm on a crusade to prevent this kind of misinformation
from being promulgated as if it were fact.

so I'm not sure why these devices are so popular.

Because they work? They make their customers feel better?

But,
someone has to buy them, or else they wouldn't be manufactured and sold.

I don't have the URL at this moment, but there is similar information
about ozone on the fda.gov website.

http://google.fda.gov/search?client=...&q=ozone&as=GO

Any amount of ozone is too much,

That's just silly. Or maybe just standard, run-of-the-mill hysteria.

although a small trace amount appears
in the air as a result of static from lightening and other natural
events.

And makes the outdoors smell springtime fresh! :-)

For anyone interested in Indoor Air Quality, there is a fine mailing
list that is semi-moderated (to keep spam out) at yahoo.com. It is
frequented by government specialists, IAQ clean up and consultants and
by average folks who suspect they have a problem or by those who want to
make sure they don't have a problem. Look at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/iequality/

Gee, they told me that banning cigarettes and making antismokerism the
national religion was supposed to solve all indoor air quality problems
for all time! Imagine your surprise.

We have a very large and very expensive air filter that uses high
voltage to strip dust particles from the air. It's a top rated product,
but we won't use it.

I will, however, stand up and defend your right to live your life as you
see fit.

Cheers!
Rich
[remainder of thread follows]
Regards,

M

On Mon, 30 May 2005 23:10:01 GMT, Ted Edwards
wrote:

Mebart wrote:
I'm curious whether anyone has dissected any of the latest version of
personal air purifiers?
...

As an asthmatic, I have had much cause to investigate the claims for
these so called "air purifiers". If you want to kill yourself, that's
your business but if anyone insisted on operating one anywhere near me,
I'd sue _and_ call the cops. Go to
http://www.lungusa.org
and enter "ozone" (without quotes) in the search box. Read what it
says.
Scarry!!!

Ted

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

They work because they remove dust from the air, and make it stick to
any nearby furniture. This accounts for the reports of improvements in
'hay fever' - pollen in also removed.

For pure Placebo effect - try magnetic bracelets that claim that they
'ionize'.

--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"Any sufficiently advanced magick is
indistinguishable from technology."

On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:18:43 -0700, Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Yeah. I'm seriously considering making some phony Viagra to
sell on the black market. :-)

--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"Which of the following doesn't belong?
a. meat
b. eggs
c. drum
d. blowjob.

Answer: d: A blowjob, because you can beat your meat, your eggs,
or your drum, but you just can't beat a blowjob."

"Luhan Monat" wrote in message
news:yQ4ne.1627$Pp.1600@fed1read01...
Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

They work because they remove dust from the air, and make it stick to
any nearby furniture. This accounts for the reports of improvements
in
'hay fever' - pollen in also removed.

For pure Placebo effect - try magnetic bracelets that claim that they
'ionize'.

I would, but they're too expensive - sixty bucks. And the gold plated
ones are even more expensive, a hundred or more.

No, I don't believe they work, but they make a good conversation piece.
Especially when you try to explain how it must be worn, so that the
magic whatever won't stop. ;-P http://www.qray.com/qray20/index.asp



--
Luhan Monat: luhanis(at)yahoo(dot)com
http://members.cox.net/berniekm
"Any sufficiently advanced magick is
indistinguishable from technology."

Mebart wrote in message ...
Thanks for writing this Ted, my observations are not nearly as
effective as your comments because you have a health problem that is
exasebbated by ozone. I hope everyone warns their friends. Negative
Ions means the same thing as ozone, so I'm not sure why these devices
are so popular.


No, negative ions are *not* the same as ozone, you need a significantly
higher voltage corona to produce ozone.

We have a very large and very expensive air filter that uses high
voltage to strip dust particles from the air. It's a top rated
product, but we won't use it.


Well whatever, but those don't produce ozone or negative ions. Hey you're
welcome to give it to me, I've been in the market for one of those actually.

"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:18:43 -0700, Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Yeah. I'm seriously considering making some phony Viagra to
sell on the black market. :-)

But if you implicitly or explicitly say that it's viagra or whatever,
then if it doesn't have some active ingredients, that's deceptive
advertising. So you're in trouble. But if it _does_ have some active
ingredients, you're in trouble for violating the maker's licensing
rights.

Seems like anyway you turn, you lose.

--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"Which of the following doesn't belong?
a. meat
b. eggs
c. drum
d. blowjob.

Answer: d: A blowjob, because you can beat your meat, your eggs,
or your drum, but you just can't beat a blowjob."

I would, but they're too expensive - sixty bucks. And the gold plated
ones are even more expensive, a hundred or more.

No, I don't believe they work, but they make a good conversation piece.
Especially when you try to explain how it must be worn, so that the
magic whatever won't stop. ;-P http://www.qray.com/qray20/index.asp



You should check out the episode of Penn & Teller Bull**** on alternative
medicine, absolutely hilarious segment on magnetic therapy.

Begging your pardon, but this is simply not true. A negative ion is _any_
atom with an extra electron attached to it (or two, or however many you
can get to stick.) Ozone is a specific compound, chemical formula O3.
Simply a molecule comprising three oxygen atoms.

Mind you, ozone is a _by-product_ whenever there is ion generation going
on, but the idea that "negative ions" and "ozone" are the same is terribly,
deeply, mistaken. My intent here is not to hurt your feelings, but I guess
I'd have to say I'm on a crusade to prevent this kind of misinformation
from being promulgated as if it were fact.

Yes, you are correct, literally.

But, where you find negative ions, you will find ozone in the same
air. And, any voltage that is instrumental in producing negative ions
will also produce ozone.

Literally, they are not the same, you are absolutely correct. But,
with respect to the air purifiers...a negative ion generator must also
produce ozone.

M

"James Sweet" wrote in message
news:%tcne.20115$Ri3.6517@trnddc09...



I would, but they're too expensive - sixty bucks. And the gold
plated
ones are even more expensive, a hundred or more.

No, I don't believe they work, but they make a good conversation
piece.
Especially when you try to explain how it must be worn, so that the
magic whatever won't stop. ;-P
http://www.qray.com/qray20/index.asp



You should check out the episode of Penn & Teller Bull**** on
alternative
medicine, absolutely hilarious segment on magnetic therapy.

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

Rich Grise wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:25:52 -0400, [presumably Mebart] top-posted:
Thanks for writing this Ted, my observations are not nearly as effective
as your comments because you have a health problem that is exasebbated by
ozone. I hope everyone warns their friends. Negative Ions means the same
thing as ozone,

Begging your pardon, but this is simply not true. A negative ion is _any_
atom with an extra electron attached to it (or two, or however many you
can get to stick.) Ozone is a specific compound, chemical formula O3.
Simply a molecule comprising three oxygen atoms.

Mind you, ozone is a _by-product_ whenever there is ion generation going
on, but the idea that "negative ions" and "ozone" are the same is terribly,
deeply, mistaken. My intent here is not to hurt your feelings, but I guess
I'd have to say I'm on a crusade to prevent this kind of misinformation
from being promulgated as if it were fact.

Note that his statement is, "Negative Ions means the same thing as
ozone,..." not "are the same thing". Unless you use a mechanism to
generate negative ions that does not produce ozone (not likely in a home
air cleaner) they do "mean the same thing" in practical terms.

so I'm not sure why these devices are so popular.

Because they work? They make their customers feel better?

So do jelly donuts to diabetics but ... They certainly don't work.

http://google.fda.gov/search?client=...&q=ozone&as=GO

Any amount of ozone is too much,
That's just silly. Or maybe just standard, run-of-the-mill hysteria.

Note that the URL you supplied refers mainly to CFCs and the Ozone layer
however one of the first citations states:
"
(a) Ozone is a toxic gas with no known useful medical application in
specific, adjunctive, or preventive therapy. In order for ozone to be
effective as a germicide, it must be present in a concentration far
greater than that which can be safely tolerated by man and animals.
"

although a small trace amount appears
in the air as a result of static from lightening and other natural
events.

And makes the outdoors smell springtime fresh! :-)

Your name has a familiar ring. Where/are you involved in the sale or
manufacture of ionic "air cleaners"?

Ted

Luhan Monat wrote:
Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

They work because they remove dust from the air, and make it stick to
any nearby furniture.

Where they loose their charge fairly soon and get back into the air.
Great!!

Ted

James Sweet wrote:
Mebart wrote in message ...

Thanks for writing this Ted, my observations are not nearly as
effective as your comments because you have a health problem that is
exasebbated by ozone. I hope everyone warns their friends. Negative
Ions means the same thing as ozone, so I'm not sure why these devices
are so popular.

No, negative ions are *not* the same as ozone, you need a significantly
higher voltage corona to produce ozone.

Sheesh! Don't you folks READ the posts? "Mean the same thing" and "are
the same thing" are not the same statement. Gasoline, air and an
ignition source is not the same thing as fire but the results are the same.

It _is_ possible to generate negative (or, for that matter, positive)
ions without producing O3 just not with an electrical discharge in air.
Ever heard of an ion engine?

Ted