James Sweet wrote:
We have a very large and very expensive air filter that uses high
voltage to strip dust particles from the air. It's a top rated
product, but we won't use it.



Well whatever, but those don't produce ozone or negative ions. Hey you're
welcome to give it to me, I've been in the market for one of those actually.

You might look into electrostatic furnace filters but not the ones you
supply power to. We have permanent filters that work by the airflow
over the grid developing a small static charge. Enough to trap
particulates but not enough to generate ozone or produce a flow of ions.
They are cleaned with a little detergent and water every couple of
months and last indefinitely.

Ted

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure diseases is like
trying to behead someone with a feather.

N

In article helne.20644$HI.9098@edtnps84,
Ted Edwards wrote:

They work because they remove dust from the air, and make it stick to
any nearby furniture.

Where they loose their charge fairly soon and get back into the air.

That's not my experience.

I ran a simple negative-ion generator in my office for several years,
when I worked in Los Angeles in a building right under the LAX
approach path. Lots of soot, jet-engine exhaust fumes, etc. in the
air... really yucky.

The negative-ion generator had a very beneficial effect on the air in
the office. I noticed no increase in ozone (there was quite a bit in
LA air at times in the summer, and my eyes are quite sensitive to it).
I presume that the discharge voltage was kept low enough to minimize
ozone production.

The "deposits soot and dust on the walls and furniture" problem was
quite real. The gunk precipitated out of the air didn't get back
in... rather, it ended up plating the ceiling tiles, the painted
walls, papers and pictures tacked up on the walls, and so forth.
After 2-3 months of operation I could see a "shadow" on the wall if I
removed a photo or calendar. The gunk would not brush off of the
wall... it was there for good. When I left the company, I understand
that they decided to repaint the whole room... the gunk wouldn't wash
off.

I definitely had less allergy symptoms when using the generator... and
the most subjectively pleasant and breathable air in the whole building.

On the other hand, I've been in rooms where an "ozone purifier" was
being operated. Nasty, nasty, nasty... my eyes were burning after
only a few minutes. I'd never buy one of those things.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

..
I presume that the discharge voltage was kept low enough to minimize
ozone production.


OK, I'm not sure I understand this. Isn't one molecule of ozone
created for each ion? Isn't this the fundamental definition of
ozone???

Maybe I'm wrong, it wouldn't be the first time::

I presume that the discharge voltage was kept low enough to minimize
ozone production.


OK, I'm not sure I understand this. Isn't one molecule of ozone
created for each ion? Isn't this the fundamental definition of
ozone???

Nope.

Ozone is what you get if you apply enough energy to a set of three
oxygen molecules (O2) to temporarily tear 'em apart, and end up with
them being put back together into a pair of ozone molecules (O3).
Although this is often done using a strong electrical field, the
resulting ozone molecules can each have a neutral electrical charge -
they are not ionized. It's also possible to convert O2 to O3 by means
of high-intensity ultraviolet light - commercial ozone generators
often use this approach.

Ions are what you get if you add electrons to, or strip electrons away
from, neutrally-charged atoms or molecules. This can be done with an
electrical field.

The negative-ion generators I've used have a relatively modest
negative electrical charge maintained on their discharge brush. The
resulting field strength seems to be strong enough to discharge
electrons onto (and thus ionize) passing molecules, but not strong
enough to rip apart and ozonize a significant amount of oxygen.

--
Dave Platt AE6EO
Hosting the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

Ozone is what you get if you apply enough energy to a set of three
oxygen molecules (O2) to temporarily tear 'em apart, and end up with
them being put back together into a pair of ozone molecules (O3).
Although this is often done using a strong electrical field, the
resulting ozone molecules can each have a neutral electrical charge -
they are not ionized. It's also possible to convert O2 to O3 by means
of high-intensity ultraviolet light - commercial ozone generators
often use this approach.



The ozonator in my hot tub works that way, it has a small quartz fluorescent
tube. It's nice because it reduces the bromine consumption though the
replacement tubes are pricey.

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:03:23 +0000, NSM wrote:


"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure diseases is like
trying to behead someone with a feather.

There is a chance of the latter succeeding.

A few years back, one of my wife's frinds returned to the area for a
visit. She is a devout Christian, but had been selling magnets as
cure-alls. I asked my wife (also a firm Christian) if what she was
selling weren't rather un-Christian. She just shuttered.

....then there is the magnet for the fuel line, to align all those gasoline
molecules as they go into the ingectors.

--
Keith

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure diseases is
like
trying to behead someone with a feather.

There is a chance of the latter succeeding.

Right; the thing is that with TMS, they first established that it definitely
has an effect on the brain; it can make people twitch, for example, when a
motor area is stimulated; so the only question now is how to get a
*beneficial* effect.


A few years back, one of my wife's frinds returned to the area for a
visit. She is a devout Christian, but had been selling magnets as
cure-alls. I asked my wife (also a firm Christian) if what she was
selling weren't rather un-Christian. She just shuttered.

A good point. As a firm Christian myself, I think we should be more
intolerant of quacks. Fraud is sin. Irresponsibility bordering on fraud is
also culpable.

"keith" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 17:03:23 +0000, NSM wrote:


"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover""
wrote
in message ...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure diseases is
like
trying to behead someone with a feather.

There is a chance of the latter succeeding.


Yes I remember discovering that when I took archery in school, a feather
zipping by at a good speed can do some damage.

"NSM" wrote in message
news:vTlne.28730$on1.22309@clgrps13...

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover""
wrote
in message ...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with a coil
placed on the head over a certain part of the brain. Then a high
current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down to the bottom of
this
URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure diseases
is like
trying to behead someone with a feather.

Er, righ......................


N

On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:21:22 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:
"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:18:43 -0700, Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Yeah. I'm seriously considering making some phony Viagra to
sell on the black market. :-)

But if you implicitly or explicitly say that it's viagra or whatever,
then if it doesn't have some active ingredients, that's deceptive
advertising.

I don't think the guy at the local watering hole that's buying illegal
black market viagra is going to complain too much about deceptive
advertising! ;-)

So you're in trouble.

Well, I might get in trouble for selling phony illegal black market
drugs. ;-)

But if it _does_ have some active
ingredients, you're in trouble for violating the maker's licensing
rights.

Oh, then just come up with a "supplement", like the guy I knew a few
years ago that had some snake-oil called "Testo-Glan." ;-p

Seems like anyway you turn, you lose.

Yeah, well, it's not like that'd be a new experience for me. ;-)
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"Doctors take two aspirin and do it in the morning."

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 03:33:19 -0400, wrote:



Begging your pardon, but this is simply not true. A negative ion is _any_
atom with an extra electron attached to it (or two, or however many you
can get to stick.) Ozone is a specific compound, chemical formula O3.
Simply a molecule comprising three oxygen atoms.

Mind you, ozone is a _by-product_ whenever there is ion generation going
on, but the idea that "negative ions" and "ozone" are the same is terribly,
deeply, mistaken. My intent here is not to hurt your feelings, but I guess
I'd have to say I'm on a crusade to prevent this kind of misinformation
from being promulgated as if it were fact.

Yes, you are correct, literally.

But, where you find negative ions, you will find ozone in the same
air. And, any voltage that is instrumental in producing negative ions
will also produce ozone.

Literally, they are not the same, you are absolutely correct. But,
with respect to the air purifiers...a negative ion generator must also
produce ozone.

I think it's not even necessarily true that it "must" produce
ozone - Dave Platt, in another part of the thread, seems to have
had a good experience with a negative ion generator that didn't
produce any ozone, and he seems to indicate that his eyes are
a very sensitive ozone detector.

And, do you remember those atomic phonograph record brushes? It
had some polonium or something in it, which spits out alpha
particles, which are basically fast helium++ ions. They didn't
make any ozone, but they put out enough ions to discharge the static
that made the dust stick to the vinyl. Radioactive stuff is pretty
much illegal these days, otherwise you could make an ionizer with
just a few volts of DC; but I can see how it'd be possible to create
some ions without necessarily dissociating O2 into atomic oxygen.

And since ozone is not very stable in its own right, it probably
wouldn't be hard to come up with some catalytic ozone destroyer;
but in small quantities, ozone really does clean and deodorize the
air - it's a very aggressive oxidizer, you know. It bleaches the
dust mites to death. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Wed, 01 Jun 2005 16:16:27 +0000, Ted Edwards wrote:
Rich Grise wrote:
On Tue, 31 May 2005 08:25:52 -0400, [presumably Mebart] top-posted:
....
although a small trace amount appears
in the air as a result of static from lightening and other natural
events.

And makes the outdoors smell springtime fresh! :-)

Your name has a familiar ring. Where/are you involved in the sale or
manufacture of ionic "air cleaners"?

No, but I did work for an environmental consultant who installed a bunch
of "germicical UV" lights near the ceiling of a commercial bakery that
stunk of rot and mildew all of the time, and about a week later it
didn't stink any more. And that was _intentional_ ozone generation,
specifically to clean and deodorize the air.

But, in cleaning the air, the ozone gets used up. Like when you're
burning a candle in a jar, the oxygen runs out because the wax and
oxygen make CO2, H2O, and soot. So after killing a certain weight
of bacteria and spores and dust mites, the O3 has taken place in
chemical reactions (oxidation) and isn't ozone any more anyway.

Cheers!
Rich

"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:21:22 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover" wrote:
"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:18:43 -0700, Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Yeah. I'm seriously considering making some phony Viagra to
sell on the black market. :-)

But if you implicitly or explicitly say that it's viagra or
whatever,
then if it doesn't have some active ingredients, that's deceptive
advertising.

I don't think the guy at the local watering hole that's buying illegal
black market viagra is going to complain too much about deceptive
advertising! ;-)

So you're in trouble.

Well, I might get in trouble for selling phony illegal black market
drugs. ;-)

But if it _does_ have some active
ingredients, you're in trouble for violating the maker's licensing
rights.

Oh, then just come up with a "supplement", like the guy I knew a few
years ago that had some snake-oil called "Testo-Glan." ;-p

Seems like anyway you turn, you lose.

Yeah, well, it's not like that'd be a new experience for me. ;-)

But since there are millions of spammers out there selling herbal
viagra, there must be some suckers buying it. Check this out.
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59907,00.html


--
Cheers!
Rich
------

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover""
wrote in message ...

"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:21:22 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the
Dark Remover" wrote:
"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
On Tue, 31 May 2005 12:18:43 -0700, Phazeshyft wrote:

"Because they work? They make their customers feel better? "

Ever heard of the Placebo effect.

Yeah. I'm seriously considering making some phony Viagra to
sell on the black market. :-)

But if you implicitly or explicitly say that it's viagra or
whatever,
then if it doesn't have some active ingredients, that's deceptive
advertising.

I don't think the guy at the local watering hole that's buying
illegal
black market viagra is going to complain too much about deceptive
advertising! ;-)

So you're in trouble.

Well, I might get in trouble for selling phony illegal black market
drugs. ;-)

But if it _does_ have some active
ingredients, you're in trouble for violating the maker's licensing
rights.

Oh, then just come up with a "supplement", like the guy I knew a few
years ago that had some snake-oil called "Testo-Glan." ;-p

Seems like anyway you turn, you lose.

Yeah, well, it's not like that'd be a new experience for me. ;-)

But since there are millions of spammers out there selling herbal
viagra, there must be some suckers buying it. Check this out.
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59907,00.html

Actually, this is the one I had in mind. They confiscated a whole bunch
of exotic cars from one of the swindlers.

"Under a settlement of a civil complaint announced last month by the
Arizona attorney general’s office, the state is seizing 13 luxury homes
and property valued at more than $20 million, a fleet of expensive
automobiles and tens of millions of dollars of cash from C.P. Direct and
its main officers, Michael Consoli, Geraldine Consoli and Vincent
Passafiume, all of Scottsdale."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3077050/


--
Cheers!
Rich
------

"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover"" wrote
in message ...

Actually, this is the one I had in mind. They confiscated a whole bunch
of exotic cars from one of the swindlers.

"Under a settlement of a civil complaint announced last month by the
Arizona attorney general’s office, the state is seizing 13 luxury homes
and property valued at more than $20 million, a fleet of expensive
automobiles and tens of millions of dollars of cash from C.P. Direct and
its main officers, Michael Consoli, Geraldine Consoli and Vincent
Passafiume, all of Scottsdale."

Then there's the guy selling that book, "Natural Cures They Don't Want You
To Know About" (Kevin Trudeau). Apparently he doesn't want you to know
either since there are none in his book or on his pay website that the book
touts!

http://tinyurl.com/c2grv

"... In his infomercial, Mr. Trudeau claims he has natural cures for a
myriad of serious illnesses, which he would love to reveal to you then and
there, but the Evil Government won't let him say anything on TV. You must
buy his book!

In the book, Mr. Trudeau gives a few generic tips on healthful living, urges
everyone to join the Scientology cult, and claims he has natural cures for a
myriad of serious illnesses, which he would love to reveal to you, but the
Evil Government won't let him say anything in a book. You must visit his web
site!

On the web site, Mr. Trudeau claims he has natural cures for a myriad of
serious illnesses, which he would love to reveal to you, but the Evil
Government won't let him say anything on his freely accessible web site. You
must pay up and JOIN the web site, and then the secret cures will be
revealed!

As a PAID member of his web site, you are dismayed to discover that the
"cures" portion of the web site is "under construction"; nope, there are no
cures there after all. Still, you are told, SOMEDAY, if you just keep on
paying, astonishing natural cures will eventually be revealed! In the
meantime, you are kindly told that you can e-mail Mr. Trudeau and he will
write back, finally revealing his natural cure for what ails you in the one
way he is allowed to do.

If you e-mail, you will never, ever hear back. ..."

N

On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 01:57:39 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover" wrote:
"Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun, the Dark Remover""

"Rich The Newsgroup Wacko" wrote in message
....
Oh, then just come up with a "supplement", like the guy I knew a few
years ago that had some snake-oil called "Testo-Glan." ;-p

Seems like anyway you turn, you lose.

Yeah, well, it's not like that'd be a new experience for me. ;-)

But since there are millions of spammers out there selling herbal
viagra, there must be some suckers buying it. Check this out.
http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,59907,00.html

Actually, this is the one I had in mind. They confiscated a whole bunch
of exotic cars from one of the swindlers.

"Under a settlement of a civil complaint announced last month by the
Arizona attorney general’s office, the state is seizing 13 luxury homes
and property valued at more than $20 million, a fleet of expensive
automobiles and tens of millions of dollars of cash from C.P. Direct and
its main officers, Michael Consoli, Geraldine Consoli and Vincent
Passafiume, all of Scottsdale."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3077050/

Well, not that I'd make any comments about nationalities of names or
anything, but "Consoli" and "Passafiume"? They must have got them on
tax evasion too, or something.

And 13 luxury houses and a fleet of cars is freaking insane. I was
thinking a couple hundred bucks a week, maybe a grand! ;-) Why would I
need more than one place to sit, eat, watch TV and sleep, and more than
one car? If I really wanted to go to exotic places, they all have hotels
and rental cars. :-)

Yeah, I'm a pretty cheap date! ;-P (albeit a steady supply of some
decent herb wouldn't hurt!)

--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"There was a young miss from Johore
Who'd lie on a mat on the floor;
In a manner uncanny
She'd wobble her fanny,
And drain your nuts dry to the core."

Rich Grise wrote:
No, but I did work for an environmental consultant who installed a bunch
of "germicical UV" lights near the ceiling of a commercial bakery that
stunk of rot and mildew all of the time, and about a week later it
didn't stink any more. And that was _intentional_ ozone generation,
specifically to clean and deodorize the air.

But, in cleaning the air, the ozone gets used up. Like when you're
burning a candle in a jar, the oxygen runs out because the wax and
oxygen make CO2, H2O, and soot. So after killing a certain weight
of bacteria and spores and dust mites, the O3 has taken place in
chemical reactions (oxidation) and isn't ozone any more anyway.

Any ozone production was very small and incidental. UV is well known to
be a powerfull germicide. So much so that it is now being used instead
of Chlorine in some water treatment plants.

Ted

mc wrote...
ketith wrote...
NSM wrote...
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with
a coil placed on the head over a certain part of the brain.
Then a high current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down
to the bottom of this URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure
diseases is like trying to behead someone with a feather.

There is a chance of the latter succeeding.

Beheading someone with a feather, you mean?

Right; the thing is that with TMS, they first established that it
definitely has an effect on the brain; it can make people twitch,
for example, when a motor area is stimulated; so the only
question now is how to get a *beneficial* effect.

It's important to keep in mind that the effects depend upon
*changing* magnetic field gradients. Thus we see that the
observed results with TMS cannot validate the use of magnets.


--
Thanks,
- Win

Right; the thing is that with TMS, they first established that it
definitely has an effect on the brain; it can make people twitch,
for example, when a motor area is stimulated; so the only
question now is how to get a *beneficial* effect.

It's important to keep in mind that the effects depend upon
*changing* magnetic field gradients. Thus we see that the
observed results with TMS cannot validate the use of magnets.

Thank you, Mr. Faraday

So TMS is actually not a magnetic effect at all, but rather, localized
generation of electricity. Right?

"Winfield Hill" -edu wrote in
message ...
mc wrote...
ketith wrote...
NSM wrote...
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, the Dark Remover\" wrote...

They're now using magnetic therapy to treat depression with
a coil placed on the head over a certain part of the brain.
Then a high current is discharged thru the coil. Skip down
to the bottom of this URL to read about TMS.
http://depression.about.com/cs/treatments/a/newtx.htm

That appears to be reasonable. Using fridge magnets to cure
diseases is like trying to behead someone with a feather.

There is a chance of the latter succeeding.

Beheading someone with a feather, you mean?

Right; the thing is that with TMS, they first established that it
definitely has an effect on the brain; it can make people twitch,
for example, when a motor area is stimulated; so the only
question now is how to get a *beneficial* effect.

It's important to keep in mind that the effects depend upon
*changing* magnetic field gradients. Thus we see that the
observed results with TMS cannot validate the use of magnets.

Unless, of course, you treat the cranial matter as a turn of a conductor
in a magneto. ;-)


--
Thanks,
- Win