"Chris" wrote:




If I remember correctly it was Emerson that use to do all the hand-tools for
Sears. Some disputes arose and now Sears bids them out across numerous
manufactures. Lowest price wins type of deal.




Again I think it is Emerson who is now making the Husky line seen at HD.
Also thought I heard that Emerson was bought out by Stanley.

Don't know about that, but if it is the same Emerson I work for, they
have (or at least last I knew) Skill, Rigid, and part (at least) of
Bosch. [AS well as Asco, Liebert, US motors, Emerson Motors,
Insinkerator, and a slew of others] but not the (POS) Emerson
electronics.



Also in the rumor mill is that Snap On is now stamping tools for Lowe's.


jk

My buddy used to work at Costco up here in Canada. He said kids used to
"buy" jet-skis for a weekend camping trip, then return them on monday.
They eventually stopped selling them.

"Chris" wrote in message
...
SNIP
| You are 100% correct, nothing wrong at all. Although, it must be
upsetting
| to have $40k in Snap On tools and see almost the same stuff in Lowes at
1/2
| the price. I am sure they are coming off the same machines. Weather they
| are using the same stock and other processes I am sure is in question.
|
| Even more interesting is to see what the Snap On truck drivers think about
| the rebranding.
|
| Only wish a Lowes was closer.
|
| Chris

I made a similar crack to a Snap On salesman that makes a mint selling
to Boeing. I was talking to him about a software package for managing
tools, and he swore up and down that Snap On makes their own tools. Always
have, and always will. That doesn't mean that Snap On doesn't make tools
for others, though. After all, the numbers and letters are stamped in an
operation after the tool is usually initially forged, before heat treatment,
and it's the forge that's the big ticket item.

"carl mciver" wrote in message
ink.net...
"Chris" wrote in message
...

I made a similar crack to a Snap On salesman that makes a mint selling
to Boeing. I was talking to him about a software package for managing
tools, and he swore up and down that Snap On makes their own tools.
Always
have, and always will. That doesn't mean that Snap On doesn't make tools
for others, though. After all, the numbers and letters are stamped in an
operation after the tool is usually initially forged, before heat
treatment,
and it's the forge that's the big ticket item.


Carl,
They are definitely made in the US . There was an American Chopper bike
that they did for Snap On. Included in the program was a tour of the Snap
On plant. Pretty impressive. It definitely looks like their automation, is
there attempt to compete with the Chinese. Use their brains not brawn.

Anyone else notice the abundance of Snap On tools and boxes in the OCC shop
after that build. Poor guys. I remember one show were they were cursing
the abundance, Snap On boxes everywhere. I wish they were live or broadcast
in a timely fashion, I would gladly drive down there and take one off their
hands, no charge.

Snap On making tools for Lowes is the first I have heard of them making
tools for anyone. Sure their could be others as well.

Software package for managing tools??? I would be the coolest on the block
with such.

"Chris" wrote in message
...
SNIP|
| Anyone else notice the abundance of Snap On tools and boxes in the OCC
shop
| after that build. Poor guys. I remember one show were they were cursing
| the abundance, Snap On boxes everywhere. I wish they were live or
broadcast
| in a timely fashion, I would gladly drive down there and take one off
their
| hands, no charge.

Over on the 777 line, which isn't making a lot of money yet, but folks
are throwing money at it left and right over the moving line conversion. A
buddy of mine came in from the flight line one night and wandered into a
large crib full of thousands (yup!) of tools. Boxes overflowing of damn
near every hand tool they had. Scared the **** out of him! It was like
wandering into a bank vault.

| Software package for managing tools??? I would be the coolest on the
block
| with such.

You definitely would be. The system is called Snap-Cal. Not cheap, I
imagine, but I didn't discuss that part with the fellow since I wasn't
paying. Ironically, damn near every large manufacturer in the Puget Sound
Region (except for Boeing!) has made the switch to tool
control/accountability, and their tool usage dropped like a rock, saving
millions in the process. Snap Cal is a nifty program. They provide you a
laptop and simple instructions. You start with a foam pallet of the
dimensions you specify and start entering your parts list, by part number.
Snap On's or not, damn near everything is in there. Last time I heard, the
count was like 11,000 items. Select a tool on the list and a profile of the
tool appears on the pallet. Put it where you want and go get another one.
Continue until complete. Send the file to Snap On and within a few weeks (I
think we're running a couple weeks last I heard) you get the pallet in hand.
If you don't have the tool profile, put the tool on a scanner and send the
files to them. In no time your profile comes back, ready to use. Boeing
has a special deal with them, so the price billed to the shop is a bit
lower, but it's far and above a quote I got from another company that does
the same thing. For them, I'd have to send a sample of every tool to them
for their design, and pay the setup fee of about a hundred bucks. Pallets
are priced based on quantity and all that, and were around a couple hundred
bucks for a one off.) I think Boeing pays about sixty bucks for a pallet
about the size of most rollaway drawers, and the price is the same
regardless of how many you want. The foam pallets are top notch, and you
can order little plastic label with the tool part number, identification
number, or whatever you want on it, either on the outside of the tool pocket
or inside. There's other things you can do with them also, but that just
depends on the arrangements.

If you have a lot of money in tools, and want to reduce your money spent
chasing tools or replacing them, by all means call your salesman up and ask
about it. There is another system called TIMS, Tool Inventory and
Management System, that they use there that controls and tracks all tools
going in and out, from the tiniest knife blade to the big monster torque
multipliers. The tool rooms use that. Not a Snap On system though.

Bob Chilcoat wrote:

Years ago in Syracuse, I bought a Craftsman Splitting Maul. After using it
for a few days, the wooden handle broke (overshot the log I was splitting).
I took it back. The guy tried to tell me that it wasn't included in the
free replacement warranty, which was just for "Craftsman Hand Tools" as was
shown on the poster over the hand tool section. I pointed out that it said
"Craftsman" on the broken handle, and that it certainly wasn't a power tool.
So he gave me a free replacement. A couple of weeks later, the same thing
happened. Same story, same outcome. Over the course of the next year or
so, I got three more new mauls (I guess I'm not real accurate with my
swing), with gradually escalating hassle. As I was handed the last one, I
was told, "No more. This is it." When I finally broke that one, I decided
that I was tired of the hassle, and that Sears didn't really owe me
anything, so I bought a replacement fiber-glass handle, which is still on
the maul. They still haven't put any limitation on axes and splitting
mauls, or for broken wooden handles.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


Try splitting a foot long piece of radiator hose and then cable tying it
around the handle just back of the head. Should help protect on the
overshoots. Some of the sledges and mauls come with a similar protector
these days.

Pete C.
Also, a metal shield can be made to slip up around the handle, close
to the head. Thick enough metal to prevent the handle from breaking.
OR.... he could just cut 6 inches off the end of his arms.... G
Ken.

Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote in message
...
Bob Chilcoat wrote:

Years ago in Syracuse, I bought a Craftsman Splitting Maul. After using
it
for a few days, the wooden handle broke (overshot the log I was
splitting).
I took it back. The guy tried to tell me that it wasn't included in the
free replacement warranty, which was just for "Craftsman Hand Tools" as
was
shown on the poster over the hand tool section. I pointed out that it
said
"Craftsman" on the broken handle, and that it certainly wasn't a power
tool.
So he gave me a free replacement. A couple of weeks later, the same
thing
happened. Same story, same outcome. Over the course of the next year
or
so, I got three more new mauls (I guess I'm not real accurate with my
swing), with gradually escalating hassle. As I was handed the last one,
I
was told, "No more. This is it." When I finally broke that one, I
decided
that I was tired of the hassle, and that Sears didn't really owe me
anything, so I bought a replacement fiber-glass handle, which is still
on
the maul. They still haven't put any limitation on axes and splitting
mauls, or for broken wooden handles.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


Try splitting a foot long piece of radiator hose and then cable tying it
around the handle just back of the head. Should help protect on the
overshoots. Some of the sledges and mauls come with a similar protector
these days.

Pete C.
Also, a metal shield can be made to slip up around the handle, close
to the head. Thick enough metal to prevent the handle from breaking.
OR.... he could just cut 6 inches off the end of his arms.... G
Ken.


Actually a couple of misses with the fiberglass handle and he will learn to
be more accurate in a hurry. They pass a lot of vibration to the user.
Chris

snip
As far as how much they "lose" to abuse of it... Well, since the
majority of people are basically honest, I'd say that it's very little
in the overall cashflow. Particularly since so often, somebody dragging
in a warranty item is going to wander through the store and buy
something else on the way in or out. Never mind the good will it'll
generate, which means that the guy who just "ripped you off" for a $30
torque wrench that he used as a hammer is probably going to come back
and buy a $300 TV set next month, and maybe bring the kids in for
back-to-school clothes to the tune of $250, and hey, lookit that neat
gizmo! for another $50, and...

I'm pretty certain that the "loss" on it is insignificant when taken as
part of the big picture. If that weren't the case, they'd either be
shutting it down entirely, or spewing red ink by the supertanker-load.

--
Don Bruder - - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html for full details.
I was told, a number of years ago, that Stanley made a number of Sears
tools, like levels, squares, etc. AND that in order to have that
contract for millions of sales, that ANY return of the item by a
customer would have to be backed up by Stanley. In other words,
"we'll sell millions of these for you, you have to put our name on
them, but if they break, you have to eat 'em".
I would imagine the same applies to other suppliers of their tooling.
Ken.

You definitely would be. The system is called Snap-Cal. Not cheap, I
imagine, but I didn't discuss that part with the fellow since I wasn't
paying. Ironically, damn near every large manufacturer in the Puget Sound
Region (except for Boeing!) has made the switch to tool
control/accountability, and their tool usage dropped like a rock, saving
millions in the process. Snap Cal is a nifty program. They provide you a
laptop and simple instructions. You start with a foam pallet of the
dimensions you specify and start entering your parts list, by part number.
Snap On's or not, damn near everything is in there. Last time I heard,
the
count was like 11,000 items. Select a tool on the list and a profile of
the
tool appears on the pallet. Put it where you want and go get another one.
Continue until complete. Send the file to Snap On and within a few weeks
(I
think we're running a couple weeks last I heard) you get the pallet in
hand.
If you don't have the tool profile, put the tool on a scanner and send the
files to them. In no time your profile comes back, ready to use. Boeing
has a special deal with them, so the price billed to the shop is a bit
lower, but it's far and above a quote I got from another company that does
the same thing. For them, I'd have to send a sample of every tool to them
for their design, and pay the setup fee of about a hundred bucks. Pallets
are priced based on quantity and all that, and were around a couple
hundred
bucks for a one off.) I think Boeing pays about sixty bucks for a pallet
about the size of most rollaway drawers, and the price is the same
regardless of how many you want. The foam pallets are top notch, and you
can order little plastic label with the tool part number, identification
number, or whatever you want on it, either on the outside of the tool
pocket
or inside. There's other things you can do with them also, but that just
depends on the arrangements.

If you have a lot of money in tools, and want to reduce your money
spent
chasing tools or replacing them, by all means call your salesman up and
ask
about it. There is another system called TIMS, Tool Inventory and
Management System, that they use there that controls and tracks all tools
going in and out, from the tiniest knife blade to the big monster torque
multipliers. The tool rooms use that. Not a Snap On system though.

Took me a little bit to understand what this was.

http://www.snaponspecialproducts.com/toolcontrol.html

Sure did help. I would be the coolest. Never will happen. Although it is
cool as heck, and I am sure it is a significant cost saver.

Saw another article that mentioned safety as a benefit as well. Story was a
screwdriver left near a cable in an elevator. Would not of happened with
something like Snap Cal.

Ever seen emachineshop.com? Imagine Snap On could come up with something
like that, geared toward homeowners or small shop owners. I would be first
in line.

Chris

Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote in message
...
snip
I was told, a number of years ago, that Stanley made a number of Sears
tools, like levels, squares, etc. AND that in order to have that
contract for millions of sales, that ANY return of the item by a
customer would have to be backed up by Stanley. In other words,
"we'll sell millions of these for you, you have to put our name on
them, but if they break, you have to eat 'em".
I would imagine the same applies to other suppliers of their tooling.
Ken.


I would wonder if it was even worth the overhead of returning and accounting
on most of the tools. This is of course assuming that they ship it back to
the manufacture.
Come to think of it, nothing was done register or computer wise last time I
exchanged a tool. Go figure. You would at least think that it would screw
up the inventory. Maybe that explains why the tools I need to exchange are
always out of stock.

Chris

"Chris" wrote in message
...
|
| Took me a little bit to understand what this was.
|
| http://www.snaponspecialproducts.com/toolcontrol.html
|
| Sure did help. I would be the coolest. Never will happen. Although it
is
| cool as heck, and I am sure it is a significant cost saver.

My area did a half assed implementation and I told them when it started
that if they didn't do it right it would all fall apart is six months. It
didn't even last that long. Good thing I never brought my rollaway home!
Snap On has the implementation process all mapped out and if followed it
works. I lectured the powers that be about the old saying that if you fail
to plan, you plan to fail.

| Saw another article that mentioned safety as a benefit as well. Story was
a
| screwdriver left near a cable in an elevator. Would not of happened with
| something like Snap Cal.

Well, it would be far less likely, I will say that much. Military
aviation has been practicing tool control for a very, very long time, and
still **** happens. If they do happen to find a tool somewhere it doesn't
belong (the stories can be a whole newsgroup in their own right!) they at
least will be able to track where it came from, when it was noted missing,
and who used it. Further investigation will come up with all kinds of
stuff. Most industries aren't looking to point fingers nowadays unless you
tried to pull a fast one, which is very, very bad. They want to know what
they can do to keep it from happening again, which when the lawyers get to
it, that's all that matters.

| Ever seen emachineshop.com? Imagine Snap On could come up with something
| like that, geared toward homeowners or small shop owners. I would be
first
| in line.
|
| Chris

Well, let me ask a few questions. First off, how many folks can afford
this stuff for their home? Small shops might benefit, but I don't know the
cost. Would it be easier for the shop to make their own, since they are
just doing one offs, and likely not a bunch of them?
I did it this way for awhile: With about three hours worth of work and
some assorted kinds of razor blades (you can also get electric foam cutters
for the job) I can fill up a 12"*18"*2.5" foam pallet with lots and lots of
very small tools and a few bigger ones. The foam can be had from a few
different places, but the trick is that it has to be able to stand up to
hydraulic fluid and abuse. I glue layers of foam together to more easily
make the cutouts, and the top layer is a different color than the lower
layers, so you can see that's you're missing something. Toolfoam.com sells
foam, but it isn't cheap. I'm sure there are places that sell the exact
same stuff for less. They give you a good idea of what can be done, though.
The samples they sent were way cool, but I improved on their instructions
greatly when my shop bought a couple rolls to try out.
What gives Snap On the edge is that they have damn near every tool from
just about every vendor in their system, and can cut foam to fit perfectly,
with the minimum of hassle. Others charge you more, make you provide your
valuable tools for templating, and make you wait awhile.

"carl mciver" wrote in message
nk.net...
"Chris" wrote in message
...
|
| Took me a little bit to understand what this was.
|
| http://www.snaponspecialproducts.com/toolcontrol.html
|
| Sure did help. I would be the coolest. Never will happen. Although it
is
| cool as heck, and I am sure it is a significant cost saver.

My area did a half assed implementation and I told them when it started
that if they didn't do it right it would all fall apart is six months. It
didn't even last that long. Good thing I never brought my rollaway home!
Snap On has the implementation process all mapped out and if followed it
works. I lectured the powers that be about the old saying that if you
fail
to plan, you plan to fail.

| Saw another article that mentioned safety as a benefit as well. Story
was
a
| screwdriver left near a cable in an elevator. Would not of happened
with
| something like Snap Cal.

Well, it would be far less likely, I will say that much. Military
aviation has been practicing tool control for a very, very long time, and
still **** happens. If they do happen to find a tool somewhere it doesn't
belong (the stories can be a whole newsgroup in their own right!) they at
least will be able to track where it came from, when it was noted missing,
and who used it. Further investigation will come up with all kinds of
stuff. Most industries aren't looking to point fingers nowadays unless
you
tried to pull a fast one, which is very, very bad. They want to know what
they can do to keep it from happening again, which when the lawyers get to
it, that's all that matters.

| Ever seen emachineshop.com? Imagine Snap On could come up with
something
| like that, geared toward homeowners or small shop owners. I would be
first
| in line.
|
| Chris

Well, let me ask a few questions. First off, how many folks can afford
this stuff for their home? Small shops might benefit, but I don't know
the
cost. Would it be easier for the shop to make their own, since they are
just doing one offs, and likely not a bunch of them?
I did it this way for awhile: With about three hours worth of work and
some assorted kinds of razor blades (you can also get electric foam
cutters
for the job) I can fill up a 12"*18"*2.5" foam pallet with lots and lots
of
very small tools and a few bigger ones. The foam can be had from a few
different places, but the trick is that it has to be able to stand up to
hydraulic fluid and abuse. I glue layers of foam together to more easily
make the cutouts, and the top layer is a different color than the lower
layers, so you can see that's you're missing something. Toolfoam.com
sells
foam, but it isn't cheap. I'm sure there are places that sell the exact
same stuff for less. They give you a good idea of what can be done,
though.
The samples they sent were way cool, but I improved on their instructions
greatly when my shop bought a couple rolls to try out.
What gives Snap On the edge is that they have damn near every tool from
just about every vendor in their system, and can cut foam to fit
perfectly,
with the minimum of hassle. Others charge you more, make you provide your
valuable tools for templating, and make you wait awhile.

Well we are talking foam are we not? How expensive can that be? If it was
modeled after emachineshop.com customers would do the leg work. Snap on
would proof it then send the foam to the waterjet (I assume that is what
they are using to cut it).

Although I think we are seeing a small market with very little competition.
You mentioned the cost of the foam at Toolfoam.com. I am sure that it is
high, but again we are talking foam here. It does seem like they are geared
towards large manufactures and the military. Tough markets to get into,
thus the cost as well.

Come to think about it, should I be talking about this out loud, or should I
be selling my idea to emachineshop.com? To be honest all they would need in
their program is a diagram of all the tools. Probably the most valuable
part of the whole process.

Again Snap On already has the investment done with the tools database. Put
something like emachineshop and the database together and think about it.

Dare I ask how much the foam costs?

Another question. Can you add tools with the Foamtools system? Or does
laminating it end the process? Static cling (if possible) would be a cool
way to add tools.

Chris

In article .com,
"Bugs" wrote:

Do you know how to spell ETHICS?
Bugs

What are you getting at?

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

In article ,
"Pete C." wrote:

Bugs wrote:

Do you know how to spell ETHICS?
Bugs

From the warrantee info in the latest Craftsman catalog: "If any
Craftsman hand tool ever fails to give complete satisfaction, return it
to Sears for free repair or replacement"

It doesn't say anything about failing due to a manufacturing defect and
makes no exclusion for abuse. One would hope he purchased a proper
impact rated swivel while he was there though.

Pete C.

Yup, sure did. With a couple of impact-rated extensions for about
$30 or so. I figure as I go about busting my chrome sockets I'll buy
impact-rated versions of them on an as-needed basis. So far the chrome
sockets are taking the abuse just fine.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

[...]

So, BB, got PICS?

No, but I got a number. And I'm not sharing! (:

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 03:20:33 -0500, the opaque "B.B."
u clearly wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:

[...]

So, BB, got PICS?

No, but I got a number. And I'm not sharing! (:

Darn. Now I know why everyone calls you a goat. Pfffft!


================================================== ========
CAUTION: Do NOT look directly into laser with remaining eyeball!
================================================== ========
http://www.diversify.com Comprehensive Website Design

I used to have problems with broken sledge hammer, axe and mauals
when I would task my sons to do some work with these tools. Seems it
was convienient to just slip up and miss and bust the handle and get
out of the job. I used a piece of pipe to replace the
handles........and solved the problem of broken handles.....ANyway,
there was occassions when I would have to use these tools, and a ipe
handle is far from being confortable or ideal, so I replaced the
handles once again with good wood handles, and cut a couple of donuts
out of some 1" think rubber matting I had. The donuts were
approximately 6" in diameter, with a 1" hole. I slid a few of these
down the handle up to the tools head, so now when the sons miss the
target, the shock is minimized and no more broke handles. They do not
interfere with use of the tool either.....

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 01:34:26 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:

===Bob Chilcoat wrote:
===
=== Years ago in Syracuse, I bought a Craftsman Splitting Maul. After using it
=== for a few days, the wooden handle broke (overshot the log I was splitting).
=== I took it back. The guy tried to tell me that it wasn't included in the
=== free replacement warranty, which was just for "Craftsman Hand Tools" as was
=== shown on the poster over the hand tool section. I pointed out that it said
=== "Craftsman" on the broken handle, and that it certainly wasn't a power tool.
=== So he gave me a free replacement. A couple of weeks later, the same thing
=== happened. Same story, same outcome. Over the course of the next year or
=== so, I got three more new mauls (I guess I'm not real accurate with my
=== swing), with gradually escalating hassle. As I was handed the last one, I
=== was told, "No more. This is it." When I finally broke that one, I decided
=== that I was tired of the hassle, and that Sears didn't really owe me
=== anything, so I bought a replacement fiber-glass handle, which is still on
=== the maul. They still haven't put any limitation on axes and splitting
=== mauls, or for broken wooden handles.
===
=== --
=== Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
===
===
===Try splitting a foot long piece of radiator hose and then cable tying it
===around the handle just back of the head. Should help protect on the
===overshoots. Some of the sledges and mauls come with a similar protector
===these days.
===
===Pete C.
===Also, a metal shield can be made to slip up around the handle, close
===to the head. Thick enough metal to prevent the handle from breaking.
===OR.... he could just cut 6 inches off the end of his arms.... G
===Ken.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

The USAF has been doing this forever with their CTK's (consolidated
Took Kits). Each and every tool has a place so inventory before and
after can be done to ensure a tool is not left in an aircraft which
has the potential to make problems........We used to spend coountless
hours laying out tools in a toolbox drawer on foam rubber, and
arranging them how we wanted them, and outlining them with a majic
markerm and use a router to cut the tools profile into the foam
rubber......Real easy to see a missing tool that way sicne the cutout
is empty..........I did it with all my tools in my home shop as well,
but things are grossly different in most home shops, as you always
have a few of each or newly acquired items, and it takes time to make
additional cutouts, etc, so things normally get stackedup or shoved
in a drawer over time........Its a good concept to control tools, not
only to save money from haing them lost or forgotten about on a job,
but also prevent potential for damages or cause an accident in
aerospace industries, but for most home users its a waste of time
unless you jhave lots of time to route the foam out. We had priced
that factory option with Snap on but the USAF shot it down, as it was
cheaper to have new troops set there for hours cutting out foam for
the tool boxes, laying out and tracing the tools on the foam and then
routing it all out..........

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 00:33:58 -0400, "Chris" wrote:

===
==="carl mciver" wrote in message
arthlink.net...
=== "Chris" wrote in message
=== ...
=== |
=== | Took me a little bit to understand what this was.
=== |
=== | http://www.snaponspecialproducts.com/toolcontrol.html
=== |
=== | Sure did help. I would be the coolest. Never will happen. Although it
=== is
=== | cool as heck, and I am sure it is a significant cost saver.
===
=== My area did a half assed implementation and I told them when it started
=== that if they didn't do it right it would all fall apart is six months. It
=== didn't even last that long. Good thing I never brought my rollaway home!
=== Snap On has the implementation process all mapped out and if followed it
=== works. I lectured the powers that be about the old saying that if you
=== fail
=== to plan, you plan to fail.
===
=== | Saw another article that mentioned safety as a benefit as well. Story
=== was
=== a
=== | screwdriver left near a cable in an elevator. Would not of happened
=== with
=== | something like Snap Cal.
===
=== Well, it would be far less likely, I will say that much. Military
=== aviation has been practicing tool control for a very, very long time, and
=== still **** happens. If they do happen to find a tool somewhere it doesn't
=== belong (the stories can be a whole newsgroup in their own right!) they at
=== least will be able to track where it came from, when it was noted missing,
=== and who used it. Further investigation will come up with all kinds of
=== stuff. Most industries aren't looking to point fingers nowadays unless
=== you
=== tried to pull a fast one, which is very, very bad. They want to know what
=== they can do to keep it from happening again, which when the lawyers get to
=== it, that's all that matters.
===
=== | Ever seen emachineshop.com? Imagine Snap On could come up with
=== something
=== | like that, geared toward homeowners or small shop owners. I would be
=== first
=== | in line.
=== |
=== | Chris
===
=== Well, let me ask a few questions. First off, how many folks can afford
=== this stuff for their home? Small shops might benefit, but I don't know
=== the
=== cost. Would it be easier for the shop to make their own, since they are
=== just doing one offs, and likely not a bunch of them?
=== I did it this way for awhile: With about three hours worth of work and
=== some assorted kinds of razor blades (you can also get electric foam
=== cutters
=== for the job) I can fill up a 12"*18"*2.5" foam pallet with lots and lots
=== of
=== very small tools and a few bigger ones. The foam can be had from a few
=== different places, but the trick is that it has to be able to stand up to
=== hydraulic fluid and abuse. I glue layers of foam together to more easily
=== make the cutouts, and the top layer is a different color than the lower
=== layers, so you can see that's you're missing something. Toolfoam.com
=== sells
=== foam, but it isn't cheap. I'm sure there are places that sell the exact
=== same stuff for less. They give you a good idea of what can be done,
=== though.
=== The samples they sent were way cool, but I improved on their instructions
=== greatly when my shop bought a couple rolls to try out.
=== What gives Snap On the edge is that they have damn near every tool from
=== just about every vendor in their system, and can cut foam to fit
=== perfectly,
=== with the minimum of hassle. Others charge you more, make you provide your
=== valuable tools for templating, and make you wait awhile.
===
===Well we are talking foam are we not? How expensive can that be? If it was
===modeled after emachineshop.com customers would do the leg work. Snap on
===would proof it then send the foam to the waterjet (I assume that is what
===they are using to cut it).
===
===Although I think we are seeing a small market with very little competition.
===You mentioned the cost of the foam at Toolfoam.com. I am sure that it is
===high, but again we are talking foam here. It does seem like they are geared
===towards large manufactures and the military. Tough markets to get into,
===thus the cost as well.
===
===Come to think about it, should I be talking about this out loud, or should I
===be selling my idea to emachineshop.com? To be honest all they would need in
===their program is a diagram of all the tools. Probably the most valuable
===part of the whole process.
===
===Again Snap On already has the investment done with the tools database. Put
===something like emachineshop and the database together and think about it.
===
===Dare I ask how much the foam costs?
===
===Another question. Can you add tools with the Foamtools system? Or does
===laminating it end the process? Static cling (if possible) would be a cool
===way to add tools.
===
===Chris
===


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

"Chris" wrote in message
...
| Well we are talking foam are we not? How expensive can that be? If it
was
| modeled after emachineshop.com customers would do the leg work. Snap on
| would proof it then send the foam to the waterjet (I assume that is what
| they are using to cut it).

The key is not that the foam is expensive (they will send you samples
with a price list. I handed my info to someone who retired shortly
thereafter, ruining the chance of me getting it back.) but that the proper
tool profiles are in the database. Toolfoam kinda does that, after you send
them the tools the first time.
I'll describe how I made the tool pallets by hand. The pallets were
layered foam, with the top layer being a different color for contrast from
the remaining layers. Additional layers are cut out deeper to match the
tool, with the bottom layer having little to no cutouts. Keeps the tools
from falling out the bottom if you pick it up. If it stays in a drawer, you
don't need a bottom layer, but you ought to glue it down to the bottom. I
used 1/4" and 1/2" layers (funny, the toolfoam 1/2" thick was two pieces of
1/4"!) but you use whatever you have and works for you.
Playing around with a piece of paper or something the size of the
pallet, I figure out the arrangement. Cut out a roughly square piece of
foam (thickness to suit, but not the full thickness.) about an inch larger
all around than the final size of the pallet. Outline your tools onto the
foam, and consider what finger and hand access you need to remove the tools
from the foam. Long narrow islands or bridges will be weak in layered foam,
so keep that in mind. Without removing the piece, cut the line all the way
around the tool. A piece of wood to cut against helps a lot. When you've
made all the cutouts, cut out another layer the same size. Using Scotch 77
spray adhesive (better poly high density foam has issues with a lot of
adhesives) spray both mating surfaces thoroughly and allow both pieces to
dry. Using a heat gun and the process described on toolfoam.com to glue the
layers together. Once stuck together safely, now remove the plugs you cut
out. The idea is that little flaps and whatnot won't flop around when you
do it this way, and your integrity will stay. Repeat the process for
additional layers as you see fit. When complete, trim the outside
dimensions all in one cut. I tried lining the precut edges up and it just
didn't work well and came apart quickly.
A bunch of folks used this lighter but thicker 4lb crumbly foam and cut
into it from one side, but it turns out looking crappy and didn't last very
long. The foam they had to work with sucked, and they didn't know there was
better stuff. Could be that they didn't care. I used this stuff for
prototypes then moved to the layered toolfoam (6lb polyethelyne. Snap on
uses different foam of a different weight, which is really nice) stuff when
I had the layout where I wanted it. For my application, folks carried the
tool pallets around and worked out of that, but for many, they would just
work right out of the rollaway. All depends on your needs.

| Although I think we are seeing a small market with very little
competition.
| You mentioned the cost of the foam at Toolfoam.com. I am sure that it is
| high, but again we are talking foam here. It does seem like they are
geared
| towards large manufactures and the military. Tough markets to get into,
| thus the cost as well.
|
| Come to think about it, should I be talking about this out loud, or should
I
| be selling my idea to emachineshop.com? To be honest all they would need
in
| their program is a diagram of all the tools. Probably the most valuable
| part of the whole process.

I guess that's the key. How to create the diagram, make it a 3D model,
figure out what format it ought to be in, and find someone who can cut it
out. It might be that a router is better than a waterjet because a router
can cut without having to go all the way through. Some tools obviously need
to fit deeper than others, and you will have some placed in differently. On
their side, face down, face up, etc, and thus the 3D model or diagrams for
each method.
emachine shop could possibly do that, but you would have to send them
the digital file with what the foam pallet looks like, and I'm sure to have
them put layers together before machining might be tough. Besides, wouldn't
you like to have the foam in your hands and play with it before you commit
to cutting it all out.

| Again Snap On already has the investment done with the tools database.
Put
| something like emachineshop and the database together and think about it.

I cannot imagine them parting with something so valuable. They have
their own shops they contract to to cut. The shop is called Victory Foam,
but I don't know anything about them. I think they're in California.

| Dare I ask how much the foam costs?

Call and ask. It wasn't incredibly expensive if I recall correctly, but
I do remember the color selection was a bit limited for my taste.

| Another question. Can you add tools with the Foamtools system? Or does
| laminating it end the process? Static cling (if possible) would be a cool
| way to add tools.
|
| Chris

I wouldn't call it much of a system. Alterations would depend on your
arrangement with them, and how you want to handle it. You can cut out
additional holes yourself, which is a lot cheaper than having them do it, or
you can have replacement pallets made. The more complex, the more it costs.
I wouldn't bother for one offs, but quantity brings the cost down. They did
send me a quote after I sent them pictures, sizes, and the quantity of each.

Honestly, though I think you would be better off with the Snap On
system, unless you're just buying the foam and cutting it out yourself.
It's a fully capable system from beginning to end, and their database is
unbeatable. It's cheaper than the toolfoam, too. My shop didn't go with it
due to a bunch of management incompetence and lack of a plan, so it flopped.
I'll be back from a medical leave of absence in November, maybe and will
have a long chat with the managers. I laid out the process for them that I
guaranteed to work, and it fit perfectly with Snap On's process as well as
all the other processes and documents we have to work to as far as tool
control and whatnot. Armed with the information I learned and passed on to
you, you might be able to find something more locally that suits you and is
marketed for a more generic market, thus less pricey. You might have a
local plastic supplier that could sell or point you towards 4 to 6 pound
closed cell foam of a grade that resists solvents and such.

".......Most industries aren't looking to point fingers nowadays
......."

Sorry Carl but in my experience and of those around me the finger
pointing is MUCH worse than it used to be.

With the downsizing that has occurred in Boeing and its suppliers in
the last few years, the initial reflex is to point the finger and worry
about the problem latter.

Remember the saying..."Kill the messenger...."

TMT

Tom Gardner wrote:
I went with a bud returning a 3/4" breaker bar. The counter guy
handed him a new one but held on saying: "I just gotta know, how
long was the pipe you put on it?" (six foot)

Biggest snipe I ever saw used was 30' length of drill stem . Five of us
bouncing on the end of that . Slipped over a 5' Rigid pipe wrench to
tighten a flare line on a drill rig . Anyone seen longer ?
Ken Cutt

Not longer, but........... When chain tongs would not loosen a joint,
a D6 cat with a winch put enough force on it to break it loose.

Dan
( standing well back )
Ken Cutt wrote:
Tom Gardner wrote:
I went with a bud returning a 3/4" breaker bar. The counter guy
handed him a new one but held on saying: "I just gotta know, how
long was the pipe you put on it?" (six foot)

Biggest snipe I ever saw used was 30' length of drill stem . Five of us
bouncing on the end of that . Slipped over a 5' Rigid pipe wrench to
tighten a flare line on a drill rig . Anyone seen longer ?
Ken Cutt

On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:49:44 -0700, Ken Cutt
wrote:

Tom Gardner wrote:
I went with a bud returning a 3/4" breaker bar. The counter guy
handed him a new one but held on saying: "I just gotta know, how
long was the pipe you put on it?" (six foot)

Biggest snipe I ever saw used was 30' length of drill stem . Five of us
bouncing on the end of that . Slipped over a 5' Rigid pipe wrench to
tighten a flare line on a drill rig . Anyone seen longer ?
Ken Cutt

Not longer but I have used a 20' piece with a come along to the
floor to break a nut on the back of a hydraulic cylinder piston. The
cylinder was out of a track hoe and about a 2" thread (it was metric
so I don't remember the exact thread size). Two hefty guy bouncing on
the end didn't break it but the come along did. I've got tie downs
embedded in the floor of my shop which I hooked the come along to. The
rod of the cylinder was held by inserting a piece of shafting the size
of the rod end into the big vise I've got and then chaining the other
end of the shaft to the 5" OD pipe heavy wall pipe shop support that
I've got the big vise mounted on. I probably would of broken the vise
if I'd just relied on it to hold the rod. I was using a 48" Rigid pipe
wrench on the nut.



Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

Wayne Cook wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:49:44 -0700, Ken Cutt
wrote:


Tom Gardner wrote:

I went with a bud returning a 3/4" breaker bar. The counter guy
handed him a new one but held on saying: "I just gotta know, how
long was the pipe you put on it?" (six foot)


Biggest snipe I ever saw used was 30' length of drill stem . Five of us
bouncing on the end of that . Slipped over a 5' Rigid pipe wrench to
tighten a flare line on a drill rig . Anyone seen longer ?
Ken Cutt


Not longer but I have used a 20' piece with a come along to the
floor to break a nut on the back of a hydraulic cylinder piston. The
cylinder was out of a track hoe and about a 2" thread (it was metric
so I don't remember the exact thread size). Two hefty guy bouncing on
the end didn't break it but the come along did. I've got tie downs
embedded in the floor of my shop which I hooked the come along to. The
rod of the cylinder was held by inserting a piece of shafting the size
of the rod end into the big vise I've got and then chaining the other
end of the shaft to the 5" OD pipe heavy wall pipe shop support that
I've got the big vise mounted on. I probably would of broken the vise
if I'd just relied on it to hold the rod. I was using a 48" Rigid pipe
wrench on the nut.



Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

You just got to love Rigid pipe wrenches . Wonder what it would take to
break a big one ?
Ken Cutt

wrote:
Not longer, but........... When chain tongs would not loosen a joint,
a D6 cat with a winch put enough force on it to break it loose.

Dan

( standing well back )

Big chain tongs seem to be built to a different standard . Did the Cat
manage to bend the handle ?
Ken Cutt

I went with a bud returning a 3/4" breaker bar. The counter guy handed him
a new one but held on saying: "I just gotta know, how long was the pipe you
put on it?" (six foot)

One time the Mac Tool guy in the Truck gave a guy I knew some crap
on a replacement, saying the socket wrench was fine, so on the next
stop over he had that wrench prepared for him.

Twisted it into a 'U' courtesy of a 70 ton press and a mandrel.

This time the Mac guy replaced it, after he finished laughing.
'What did it take to do that??'

**
mike
**

Can't remember. That was over fifty years ago.

Dan
Ken Cutt wrote:

Big chain tongs seem to be built to a different standard . Did the Cat
manage to bend the handle ?
Ken Cutt

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:13:11 -0700, Ken Cutt
wrote:

Wayne Cook wrote:
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 16:49:44 -0700, Ken Cutt
wrote:

Not longer but I have used a 20' piece with a come along to the
floor to break a nut on the back of a hydraulic cylinder piston. The
cylinder was out of a track hoe and about a 2" thread (it was metric
so I don't remember the exact thread size). Two hefty guy bouncing on
the end didn't break it but the come along did. I've got tie downs
embedded in the floor of my shop which I hooked the come along to. The
rod of the cylinder was held by inserting a piece of shafting the size
of the rod end into the big vise I've got and then chaining the other
end of the shaft to the 5" OD pipe heavy wall pipe shop support that
I've got the big vise mounted on. I probably would of broken the vise
if I'd just relied on it to hold the rod. I was using a 48" Rigid pipe
wrench on the nut.



Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm

You just got to love Rigid pipe wrenches . Wonder what it would take to
break a big one ?
Ken Cutt

It takes a lot but it can be done. I've had to fix more than one in
my time. In fact the 48" I have has 12" of the handle broken off so it
only measures 36".

A while back I had to straighten a nearly brand new 48". They had
hooked it to a winch truck and bent the handle in a rather difficult
to straighten angle. I was rather surprised how soft the handle was.
It bent like butter.



Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook/index.htm