Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #231   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 03:12 PM
wmbjk
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

Oh Yeah

Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was
better, or worse, than solar for hot water.


Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun
to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept
will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden
hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't
get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the
point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar
water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on,
although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating
should have been part of your original "design".

It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing
more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent
building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including
a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending
your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations,
why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead,
and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing
about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your
rep, and be better for the group.

Wayne

  #232   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 03:23 PM
F. George McDuffee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Fantastic analysis and insight. Depressing though.

While working on my doctorate I took several HRD/HRM classes
which were mainly case studies. I was astounded by the number of
firms with management that had to hire consultants to find out
what it was they were producing, how they were producing it, what
workers they had, who they were producing it for, and most
critical, how it worked.

In several of the cases that were about 10-15 years apart, the
general descriptions of the firms were very similar. Some
checking indicates that these indeed were the same companies with
the same questions. FWIW, these companies are again in the news,
teetering on bankruptcy.

You may be right on a "corporate accident investigation board."
While the NTSB does an exemplary job of in-depth analysis or
major accidents, their efforts are too often short-circuited by
the standard "pilot error" explication [if the pilots died] by
the FAA, and then ignored. I am sure the same thing would occur
with the SEC. We won't bother to mention the FDA.

Good luck on your consulting.
===================================
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

F. George McDuffee expostulated:

| It would be interesting to know how much in deductions the
| corporation took on their tax returns over the last 5 or 10 years
| for market research and product R&D. Article in Wed. June 22 WSJ
| discusses shift in consumer priorities for major appliances from
| stolid dependability to flash and glitz, which may help explain
| why the "dependability people" are now in deep do-do.

It's probably worthwhile to take note of the fact that I'm not a
"Maytag Expert" and that I can't provide very much more than firsthand
observations (that may or may not be safe to use as the basis for
generalizations) and inexpert opinion - garnered while working as a
software consultant with their R&D group. Since all of the products
under development of which I had knowledge have been announced and/or
shipped, I'm free to speak openly.

On the R&D side, Maytag has extraordinarily competent engineers and
researchers who're as enthusiastic and eager as any I've ever seen
elsewhere. There aren't many of them - and they seemed much
under-appreciated by their management. My thought was (and remains)
that any of Maytag's competitors could ruin the firm simply by
offering this one engineering group an industry competive wage and
management guaranteed to provide genuine appreciation of past and
future accomplishments. With careful research, a competitor could
simultaneously put Maytag's future in grave jeopardy and greatly
enhance their own prospects for as little as $500K/year. In my mind,
for a Fortune 300 company this is tantamount to gross negligence on
the part of management.

| On the other hand, flash and glitz are only skin deep, and how
| much can it cost and how long can it take to have a design studio
| "re-skin" a washer or drier, and how much can it cost to shoot
| metal flake paint in place of white? As an aside, the American
| people deserve what they get on this one..

Flash and glitz /are/ cheap and easy. Solid dependability and quality
of function are more difficult and generally expensive to achieve - no
surprises here. My task as a consultant was to provide a technical
solution that was expected to drasticly reduce that expense. I
provided the requested solution (which incorporated solutions to the
usual variety of unanticipated side issues) and to the best of my
knowlege, that package was shelved because it required a degree of
interdepartmental cooperation/communication that too many of the
first-line development managers weren't prepared to exercise.
(Bummer!)

A related issue had to do with more than healthy managerial resistance
to technology more advanced than a motor-driven cycle controller -
even after their horizontal-axis (front loading) Neptune washer had
provided proof positive that micros are here to stay! I was by
definition a "short timer" and that attitude was grindingly
frustrating to me. I don't want to think about how frustrating it has
to be for the R&D folks who're intending to stay with Maytag for the
long haul...

| In response to another reply, the questions about the likely
| outcomes for senior management were rhetorical, although your
| detailed answers were insightful. This helps explain the
| "shortage" of engineers and the rapidly declining number of
| engineering students. Even the "nerdest" engineer can look
| up/around and see that while they (and the rest of the "product"
| people) are taking it in the shorts big time, management and
| finance are riding off with full boodle bags. While both groups
| will have some time off, for the product people it will be a mad
| scramble for another job so they can keep the house and the car,
| while the management and finance people are resting in Cancun.
|
| Do you happen to know if the Maytag pension plans are fully
| funded, or is this another "debt bomb" that will be lobbed into
| the PBGC? How about medical care for current retirees? Off
| Maytag and onto the taxpayers through Medicare?

I don't know. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to anything
unrelated to R&D and/or some specific product development. I sat
through (too many) meetings and took notice of what was being said
about the technology and politics involved with getting the
vertical-axis (top loading) Neptune product working and out the door -
and the implementation of a methodology to streamline development of
all future cycle-based "whiteware".

| We need something more than biased B-school case studies. What do
| you think of an economic/financial equivalent to the NTSB that
| would investigate major corporate "crash and burn" cases? These
| could well be a job for Dr. Kavorikan and not a "crash-cart" and
| life-support situation.
|
| In the aggregate the major loss/damage caused by not only Maytag,
| but also Enron, Tyco, Ford, EMC, Delta, American, etc., etc., is
| a total loss of confidence in the competence and motives of
| management by not only their employees, but the majority of
| stockholders and the American people.

I'd encourage you to make an at least internal distinction between
failures resulting from fundamental dishonesty with intent to
defraud - and failures resulting from stupidity, lack of due
diligence, etc. on the part of fundamentally well-intentioned people.
If I were to choose a single cause for Maytag's failure to thrive
(which would be a huge over-simplification), that cause would be the
selection of a succession of CEO's who lacked the wisdom to define
success and to lead their people in that direction.

Your summary is basically true; but would you really expect that a
government agency /could/ do more than throw good money after bad in
these cases? If so, you're far more optimistic than I'd dare to be.

One final comment. One of my first questions after starting work at
Maytag (and I did ask every single person I worked with) was: "What
does it take to make dirty clothes clean?". What I was after were
things like how much water per pound of clothes during wash and rinse,
how much agitation, how much cleaning agent, etc. with some kind of
mathematical relationships and some numbers. No one knew! I was (and
still am) dumbfounded that no one at Maytag had ever made a serious
effort to define in engineering terms what it takes to make clothes
clean. Think about the implications of that tidbit as you ponder
business failure causes...


  #233   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 07:34 PM
Arnold Walker
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:10:55 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .


Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then
why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving
around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne


Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts.
There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a hybrid
version
than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases.
Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston .


Off hand, I can think of three ICE/battery hybrids currently selling
in good numbers - Toyota Prius, and Honda Civic and Accord. Unless you
can offer some similar examples of ICE/air hybrids, I'm going to stick
with the notion that car manufacturers haven't found compressed air to
be a competitive energy storage medium for automobiles.

Wayne

A more accurate answer is that Toyota and Honda chose to capitalize on the
PC ,while
GM,Mercedes ,and the of the auto world chose to look for an engine. That
actually was more effecent at something other than
emptying your pockets.

Stanley had third market manufacturers converting thier steamcars to air in
the early 1900's.
Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance
companies.
If you ever get back to science,instead politics ....you will notice, much
of what is new is an old idea rehashed.
I ,personally, am happy building the equipment instead of relying on a
another person's word on the information.
If you really must get fried on your information ......the patent office has
about 150years of air drive and electric drive vehicles
to flame with you.I don't see the point.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #234   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 07:36 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:52:44 -0400, JohnM wrote:

Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:33 -0400, JohnM wrote:


Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:



The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons


Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to.
You need the context but not the rest.

I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context..

John



John,
I don't think so (but it's possible). Sometimes, with a few
others, I only reply to a slight snippet (see jb & Gunner & crew)
with a sharp poke G.


You go back and look at the thread where we disagreed over the atomic
bombing of the Japanese cities and you'll see where I accused you of
cutting what I said, resulting in an altered context.


Not going to go search but I'm certain that I altered nothing
in what I quoted.
It could well be that what I quoted showed your general attitude
rather well though G.

For most the subject (or a specific subset of it), not the
author, is the subject (whoops .. a tautology?)

Usually I quote the specific bit I'm responding to (for the
proper context). I like SHORT, easy-on-the-reader posts,
little forced scrolling to find the context, and brevity, usually.

Some of the others like huge essays .... but I find that a
few well placed words usually do most of the time.


I find your few, well placed words to often sound like you haven't
thought of anything constructive. "Winger!, WMD's!", etc. Maybe the
readers you prefer need it kept simple?


Like many of the wingers? Perhaps so. Even than, many
still don't get it, or so it seems. Look at poor Gunner ..
Much, if not all, of such has been coverd so many times
before and they well know it (or should).
I see no need to endlessly repeat the same longish
replies laden with facts & reasoning or redo any prior
research.

One may also usually assume that the reader recently read the
prior full post that the reply is in response to.


I don't believe that to be a safe assumption.


Better than always quoting the entire thing IMHO.

You go through a thread on
a day and you see the posts between then and the last time you looked.
There may be responses to something you read three days ago, twenty
lines up the thread. There's usually a middle ground between giving
enough information about what you're responding to that you're showing
consideration for your readers and cutting enough to not waste people's
time. Myself, I prefer to err on the side of too much information.


I'll stick with brevity, usually G
--
Cliff
  #235   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 07:37 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:25:39 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
Bye ****wit.


Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I
wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more
interesting.


Funny, you already said goodbye one and you've doing it again. Must be that
low memory retention you have. Either that or you just don't know how to end
an argument.


He'd have to be able to have one first.
--
Cliff


  #236   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 07:48 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote:

Maytag


My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's
no better than anyone else's.

Perhaps unerelated ... Sears seems to like to
sell models that they (Sears) are the sole supplier
of spare parts for .... so take a standard model,
rebadge it & alter a few key failure prone or
consumable items ...
--
Cliff
  #237   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 07:57 PM
Cliff
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:30:15 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

BTW Cliff:
Most of that other thread was not my postings. It was a super troll we have
been trying to demolish for the last 6 months on a few groups. He doesn't
like the vcomplaints to his ISP and News providers so he forges my nickname
and treis to libel me in any group I visit.

His last known commonly used name is Bunty Jeck. Previously known as Aunty
Jack, Eunty JEck, Gymmy Bob, nunja, M II, Taz, Tez, Tbz, [email protected], Troll killer
and over 300 incarnations of those basic ones over the last year. Very
mentally ill (OCD) individual in bed with Wayne and M II here or the same
person.

Sorry for the confusion but I gave up on that thread. I only post from
golden.net. Check the headers


Hope you liked the way I trimmed his/her top-posted stuff G.
--
Cliff
  #238   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 08:20 PM
Me
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance
companies.


CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be
Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance,
and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries,
and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors
with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling
Stock.


Me
  #239   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 08:31 PM
Juergen Hannappel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Me writes:

In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance
companies.


CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be
Bull****....


I think so too, especially because even without the water an old
boiler pressurized with air is also no small danger.

the only Steampowered Trains still in existance,
and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries,


There *might* be some stored steam engines still running, typically in
chemistry or power plants where steam is available anyway and can be
filled into the engine easily.

--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23
  #240   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 10:23 PM
John P Bengi
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Gee . Maybe that bottom posting stuff isn't so bad after all....LOL

"Cliff" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:30:15 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

BTW Cliff:
Most of that other thread was not my postings. It was a super troll we

have
been trying to demolish for the last 6 months on a few groups. He doesn't
like the vcomplaints to his ISP and News providers so he forges my

nickname
and treis to libel me in any group I visit.

His last known commonly used name is Bunty Jeck. Previously known as

Aunty
Jack, Eunty JEck, Gymmy Bob, nunja, M II, Taz, Tez, Tbz, [email protected], Troll

killer
and over 300 incarnations of those basic ones over the last year. Very
mentally ill (OCD) individual in bed with Wayne and M II here or the same
person.

Sorry for the confusion but I gave up on that thread. I only post from
golden.net. Check the headers


Hope you liked the way I trimmed his/her top-posted stuff G.
--
Cliff





Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trent Bosch workshop Bob Threlkeld Woodturning 0 March 15th 05 01:51 AM
Electrical installation in my garden workshop pompeysprk UK diy 2 January 27th 05 07:38 PM
Electrical installation in my garden workshop pompeysprk UK diy 0 January 27th 05 12:34 AM
ideas for covering cement floor in workshop [email protected] Woodworking 18 January 25th 05 09:39 PM
Workshop Wiring - Prep work before Electrician jonni UK diy 26 July 19th 04 08:48 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:37 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"

 

Copyright © 2017