I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

In article . com,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

cordless tools violate the 'every amp is precious' premise.

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.


When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

PTO-driven ones. The 'drive' can come from nerly anything -- a water-wheel,
a steam-engine, a tread-mill, etc. Even an electric motor, in extreme
circumstance.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

Welding -- gas, instead of electric arc.

Air compressor -- gasoline/deiesel engint, steam-powered.

Good point on the battery charging of cordless tools.

I was thinking that they might fit in where they could be run from the
main bank of batteries themselves.

TMT

I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old
fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a
look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice
who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master
at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of
words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend
to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a
squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired
racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady
who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy
when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a
veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant.

Mike Mandaville
providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world

I think there are other considerations besides efficiency. This depends
on your method of power generation, and how often you work. Cordless
tools can be useful because you can charge them when you have peak
power available from your source. The same is true for compressed air.
If your home's battery bank is fully charged, you can divert your
energy to building spare power for the shop in your cordless batteries,
and building up compression in your air tank.

I also think that, depending on how you work, the loads may not be so
bad. You most likely don't crank your saws constantly for hours on end.
You use these things in bursts. You may be able schedule your work so
that the extra load from these machines is manageable.

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 19:21:32 -0000, (Robert
Bonomi) wrote:

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.

That depends. For a typical windpower setup, you have an excess of power
you can't store when you don't need it, then a shortage when you do.
Even inefficient batteries can improve _overall_ efficiency


--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:19:59 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .
On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.

Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne

Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.

1. If you think that generators on their own make good sense for
permanent off-grid workshops, then that's another subject that your
sock puppet army doesn't know squat about.

2. Any guy who'd post under the name "pizza girl" shouldn't be allowed
around electricity or power tools, unless it's for electroshock
therapy, or for having a frontal lobotomy hole drilled.

3. Two of your identities, including the one you're using now, already
claimed to have killfiled me, so any response from you to my posts is
just more BS.

Wayne

Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. A propane
generator might be the way to go if you already have auxilary heat that
way. Typically the machines don't run terribly long at a stretch,
except maybe a sander. My jointer and table saw only run a few minutes
max.

If your pace is slow, hand tools will get it all done. Watched alone
in the wilderness the other night. He did amazing time with cutting
through several feet of spruce tree with a large western hand saw.

Alan

On 14 Jun 2005 13:42:00 -0700, "arw01"
wrote:

Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator.

Nonsense.

Wayne

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

ok things that you need a genny/huge inverter for (1) air compressor
1.1kw + , (2) arc/mig,tig welder 2.2kw + , some large routers and table
saws . the list is endless . I at presant can run my 12speed pillar
drill or chop saw (not both) from my 1 kw mod inverter . high batt
voltage will help you start large motors so use in day light hours only
(solar)

On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

8kW (surges to 16) can handle most everything a home shop is likely to
have. We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance
cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
shut the pump power off before starting the cut. For prolonged cutting
at max output, I run the backup generator for boost. Lincoln SW TIG
175 can't be run at full output off our inverters, amp draw is too
high. Could be solved by trading up to an inverter based unit if I
didn't already have an engine driven substitute for the bigger jobs.
Powermig 255 seems perfectly happy at full output.

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Yuck! Perish the thought.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

Cordless tools are great for jobs where the cord is a nuisance, but
there' isn't any special need for them with home power. Careful though
if you're using some of the modsquare (often called modsine)
inverters, they can cook the chargers included with some cordless
tools.

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

There aren't really any special considerations unless you're trying to
get away with too-small inverter capacity. Keep in mind that if you're
maxing out system capacity in the shop, it won't be available in the
house at the same time. Having said that, I don't bother to tell my
wife what I'm up to in the shop. If together we managed to exceed
capacity, the inverters would trip off automatically. And that could
happen more easily if for instance batteries were low, and you have
surges due to large loads starting. The temporary voltage drop might
be sensed, and cause a shutdown.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

One thing I've done with all equipment purchases is to make sure
they're easily returnable just in case they're not compatible with the
inverters. VFDs could be an issue for instance. Although the only
thing we've ever returned due to incompatibility was a bread maker
that ran at double speed.

Wayne

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance
cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
shut the pump power off before starting the cut.

I only use my compressor for about 15-30 minutes a day. Right now I'm using
a gasoline generator to run it but I am considering the possibility of using
a belt-driven generator and replacing the AC motor with a 12 VDC motor. For
my purposes it won't matter much if it takes a little longer (lower gear
ratio on the compressor) to fill the tank. I also always manage to find
something to do while compressor is filling the tank anyway. The main
problem I see with a 12 volt compressor is motor life and having to change
the brushes etc.

I also use more human-powered tools than I would if I was connected to the
grid. For example I make custom picture frames and I can either (in most
cases) use a big noisy double-miter saw that uses a lot of power and throws
sawdust all over the place or use a foot-powered chopper that makes hardly
any noise and produces wood chips that I expect will be suitable fuel for
the woodgas generator that I plan to build in the not-to-distant future.

A few people mentioned that cordless tools are ineffecient but hey, it sure
is nice to be able to grab a cordless drill when you only need to drill a
couple of small holes and not have to go start anything up or turn anything
else on.

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT



There was a recent article in one of the wood working magazines about
cordless tools on the higher end beginning to use lithium ion batteries
instead of nicads. Apparently they can give one hell of a current draw
and run at a slightly higher voltage (28V?). Anyway, along with the
usual benefits for contractors on cordless drills and such there was
great promise for cordless table saws and larger equipment due to the
ability to run for extended periods at the higher current draw.

It doesn't help today but there is hope in the near future for the
off-gridders and job site work.

Koz

On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make
sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of
AC motors with DC motors.

In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the
primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall
picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general
case.

At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately
more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so,
and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of
"shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To
know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC
conversion, you would have to consider each case individually.
Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the
current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by
bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the
battery room will the workshop be?

I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.

Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.
Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With
each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher
primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced
our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave
inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even
make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right."

The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are
now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of
things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again
these are *small* loads.

The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating
specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might
not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs
can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can
reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything
on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient
or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it
elsewhere.

Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid,
for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we
build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will
likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a
few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC.

YMMV.

-=s

"Scott Willing" wrote in message
...
On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make
sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of
AC motors with DC motors.

In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the
primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall
picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general
case.

At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately
more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so,
and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of
"shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To
know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC
conversion, you would have to consider each case individually.
Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the
current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by
bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the
battery room will the workshop be?

I absolutely agree with what you are saying. This is why the on-grid folks
are using Tesla's design and not Edison's DC idea. For a house I also think
it's probably not worth the trouble to run massive wires everywhere in order
to use DC effeciently. Of course the higher the voltage the smaller the
wire required, which brings you right back to 115VAC. Probably better to
have a few extra batteries and a couple of extra solar panels (or whatever)
to cover the loss of effeciency. When I first started reading about wind
generators about 20 or so years ago they were talking about 120 volt
generators charging batteries in series equaling 120 VDC. According to the
author most appliances wouldn't care if it was AC or DC. This idea is
definately simpler than having to buy and connect an expensive sine wave
inverter but I suspect that today's electronics might be a bit more
particular about their input current than a 20 year old dishwasher or vacuum
cleaner. If someone wanted to try it I suppose the best thing to do would
be to buy a new whatever and make sure you can return it. If it explodes
you go get your money back. And of course there's always the problem of
short circuits burning the house down.

However, for a stand-alone workshop that is to be powered seperately I would
consider using DC as opposed to running a gasoline/diesel generator on one
or two tools that I use regularly. For those that I only use occasionally
for me it's no big deal to start up a little generator (most of my saws etc
run fine from a Honda eu2000). As someone else pointed out running a
compressor during peak sunlight or wind times (or when a generator happens
to be running) and filling the tank can, at least in my case, supply enough
air to do quite a bit of work later without having to use any additional
power. Leaks, in this case, cannot be allowed to exist!


I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.

Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.
Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With
each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher
primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced
our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave
inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even
make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right."

The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are
now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of
things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again
these are *small* loads.

Lol. As long as you don't plug a battery charger into it to charge the
batteries it's running off of ;-)


The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating
specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might
not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs
can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can
reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything
on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient
or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it
elsewhere.

I keep toying with the idea (12 volt motors) but I still use a gasoline
generator for the sizeable, short use loads. When it comes right down to it
I'm probably only using about 2 to 3 gallons of gasoline per month to run my
tools to produce around $15,000 worth of revenue. From a business
standpoint this is an insignificant expenditure. I simply manage the use of
my power tools and do work in batches. I don't work after the sun goes down
(usually, unless it's a RUSH order).


Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid,
for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we
build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will
likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a
few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC.

YMMV.

-=s

Thanks for your posting.

Your discussion is one of the major reasons for me starting this
thread. As I soon discovered when I started research into the design of
an AHP workshop...that the continuing progression of technology
(especially that of inverter design) changes the approach that one
should take in implementing a AHP system today.

While the lure to go "no power" is strong, I am no Luddite. Power
tools, both portable and stationary, have their place in a AHP
workshop. The opportunity to leverage consumer offerings allows one to
use conventional tools with minimal hassles. I also have a large
collection of older metal and wood working tools that would be awkward
to convert to something other than AC. In the past, I have always had a
policy of trying to do as little a modification as possible to a tool
since it is never a simple as it first seems. Machine tools were
designed with certain speed and torque requirements in mind and when
one departs from these, the tool's performance suffers.

Thanks for your input and please always feel welcome to contribute to
any of my discussions.

TMT

"Scott Willing" wrote in message
...
On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.


I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.

Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.

Just curious, but how do you go to the bathroom? Composting toilet?
Outhouse?

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for the reply.

I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since
one can recharge them during off load hours.

Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to
retrofit something like a table saw?

While searching for a fan motor I came across some substantial DC motors on
eBay a while back. I think they may have been blower motors for furnaces or
air conditioners. What I had in mind was using a belt drive. I would think
it might be more difficult to find one that has the right shaft for a saw,
especially one with reverse threads. Come to think of it a DC powered saw
might make it possible (or at least safer) to use fluorescent lights in a
shop since it would not be running at 60 Hz.

Grainger has DC motors too.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/sea...ults.jsp?xi=xi


In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but
unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am
not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have
taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven
tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels
to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than
necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy.

TMT

How many of these tools are going to operate at the same time? What do
those amps add up to? With some extra margin, that is the demand you need
to satisfy. It isn't the sum of all the tools, unless they will all be
running at the same time.

Steve

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

I have also considered this. I love my machine tools, but I've always
dreamed of living off-grid. The compromise would be grid-connected to
have the power for the tools when needed.

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Or human-power supplementing electric. For example, lathe threading
done in low backgear can often be done as well or better with a
handcrank on the spindle.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

Any, recharged with dedicated solar panels.

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Old lineshaft units, driven with water power if available.
Even an old-style windmill could be converted to turn a shaft.

You also evaluate the way you use your tools now. 90% of my lathe work
would fit in the evelope of the import 7x10 lathes, which draw about as
much power as a sewing machine.
With that in mind while looking at mills, I determined that most of
the things I wished to use a miller for would fit well within the
envelope of an Asian minimill. So far, I have not proven myself wrong.
So it may be that you could do most of what you need with smaller
equipment, retaining the bigger tools for the jobs that require them.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

Welding - gas or small MIG/TIG

No way around the big amp draw of a compressor that I can think of.
Line-driven at night with the water power, with a big tank? Even if you
could not get to the desired pressure using alternative power, a
large-volume tank at, say 5- psi feeding a conventional compressor would
take some of the worst load off. The amp dra on starting might not be as
tough if it was fed with medium-pressure air.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

I would think, that if your home were sufficient on gas/solar/whatever,
a moderate generator for the machines and any other uses would be fine.
If one was careful a home shop would go weeks/months on a tank of fuel.

the cost of the additional storage for the occasional use would seem
overly high. I think a generator would be the cheapest solution

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT


Have you ever been in an Amish woodshop? The last time I was in one it had
very many modern woodworking machines all driven by a jackshaft. There was
a Deutz diesel engine powering the jackshaft. The amish farmers in PA where
I grew up used the same diesel engine driving a jackshaft arrangement to
pump water, compress air, run the refridgeration units for their bulk tanks
and pump water. As a side note to this, they used an interesting pump down
the well that used compressed air as power to pump the water up to a holding
tank.

Shawn

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

clip

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

I worked in a shop with no electric and no "alternative power" tools... We
had a forge with bellows, anvil, hardies, tongs, etc., out back for metal
shaping and welding and a large selection of files, screw plates, hacksaws,
etc. For woodworking there were axes, adzes, spoke shaves, draw knives,
frame saws, panel saws, rasps, spring pole lathe, etc. Light came through
the windows... It's doable... At the time there was a 10 year waiting list
for our output.

John

FYI...I have had several emails expressing interest in this discussion.

Some of them are from viewers in Florida who commented that this topic
is revelant to their situation after last year's storms. It would seem
that many were without power for many weeks/months and were living
subsistence energy wise for a long period of time while they were
trying to rebuild their lives and property.

As one person said.." you never realize how much you rely on your power
drill until you don't have the juice to run it".

TMT

On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Don't use the amps. I can't see any scenario where powering these tools
(bigger than trivial) from an existing setup where "every amp is
precious" can be viable. For lighting it's a different matter - simply
upping the battery capacity might be enough.

And what's the shortage here ? Amps or coulombs ? Is the limit on power
(ability to deliver it) or energy (stored capacity) ?

For convenience, go for a generator. You can use standard tools, the
cost of doing this is low, the convenience is high. For an occasional
use setup, or particularly for construction work, then this is almost
always the best way.

For improved efficiency, then go to lineshafts and a separate internal
combustion prime mover. This is likely to mean pre-WW2 vintage tools
though, and slow-speed metalworking rather than our modern high-speed
cutting. One of my neighbours has a 1900 house with its original
(commercial light engineering) workshop - power comes from a 12hp gas
engine (town gas, not gasoline) and it powers several lathes, mill and
drill by lineshaft. All still operational too! This seems more viable
for wood than for metal though.

With centralised lineshaft power, you're also geared up to use a water
turbine. I can't see this working for wind power, but water is certainly
viable. I've seen old UK cereal watermills which have had modern lathes
or potter's wheels attached to them, and smithing has regularly done
this to drive power hammers. The well-known Taunton press "Workshops"
book has photos and drawings in it of "Ben's Mill" in Vermont, a
water-powered mill with a 1900s iron water turbine, now supplemented by
a tractor.

A timber yard I use is on an old farm. It has a number of electric
machines, but the main rip saw is powered by a tractor and flat belt.
There's now a dedicated stripped-down tractor, on a permanent brick
footing.

A more modern approach than lineshafting is hydraulics. There are a
number of US religious groups (Amish, AFAIR) where there are
prohibitions on electric machinery. However a centralised diesel
hydraulic power pack and individual hydraulic motors are acceptable. Not
cheap though!

One of the simplest options is to not use powered tools at all. Why do
you need a workshop? What are you trying to make ? If you're a green
woodworker than you can use a shave horse and drawknife for much shaping
work, a pole, treadle or great-wheel lathe for turning (powered either
by the operator, or an assistant). Many such workers may also use these
in conjunction with a Wood-mizer or similar large bandsaw, with its own
petrol engine.

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

snip
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:



F. George McDuffee wrote:
snip

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks.

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars].

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?

They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

No, they aren't. Most of us who actually live with alternative power,
don't consider ourselves "survivalists". I sure don't want anything to
do with the label, especially after the general corruption of its
meaning by the Dale Gribble types, who are often able to magically
separate self-reliance from the definition.

The general advantage of being able to make use of home power is to
improve quality of life. For instance, off-grid land tends to be
cheaper, and it's farther away from the hustle and bustle. A desire to
say, have more acres farther from town rather than fewer closer in, or
to get away from noise, smog, and the neighbors' yappy dogs, hasn't
anything to do with the oft-blogged irrational paranoia of so-called
survivalists, some of whom apparently can't even do without brand-name
soda.

Wayne

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?


They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never
attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible
without being threatened by the apocalypse.
I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy.

Rex

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:

How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?


They are as intertwined as salt and pepper.

Gunner

I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never
attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible
without being threatened by the apocalypse.
I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy.

Rex

Who said anything about "anarchy" or the apocalypse? Is that what you
equate survivalism with?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism

Survivalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

A survivalist is a person who anticipates a potential disruption in
the continuity of local, regional or worldwide society, and takes
steps to survive in the resulting unpredictable situation. Some
survivalists take an interest in survival in the wilderness or at sea,
while others look for opportunities to gain practice and training by
assisting in government volunteer organizations. Still others look at
historical incidents, either localized or affecting large regions, and
put extra effort and funds into preparing themselves with all the
tools and information needed to handle repeats of those same events.

Survivalists have current access to modern society, but prepare for a
future loss. This differentiates them from other people who endure
extreme situations by living in locations isolated through winter,
incursion commandos and guerrillas, and from subsistence farmers.

The specific preparations made will depend on the nature of the
anticipated disruption. The natures of the disruptions most commonly
planned for among survivalists include:

1. Natural disasters, such as tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes,
blizzards, and severe thunderstorms
2. Disasters brought about by the activities of humankind: chemical
spills, release of radioactive materials, war.
3. Collapse of the socioeconomic structure resulting in the
unavailability of electricity, fuel, food, water, and other goods and
services. Concern over the Y2K computer bug led to a brief widespread
interest in survivalism in 1999 for this reason.

Contents [showhide]
1 History
2 Common Preparations
3 Fringe Groups
4 Other Voices
5 In Fiction
6 External Links

6.1 Classic Survival Books
[edit]

History

The taking of prudent precautions as a hedge against bad times is as
old as history. The modern survivalist movement in the United States
and Great Britain can be traced chiefly to two sources:

1. The directive of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
to its members to store a year's worth of food for themselves and
their families
2. The publication of Famine and Survival in America by Howard J.
Ruff in 1974.

Ruff's book was published during a period of rampant inflation in the
wake of the 1973 oil crisis. Most of the elements of survivalism can
be found there, including advice on storage of food. The book also
championed the notion that precious metals, such as gold (as in South
African Krugerrands) and silver, have an intrinsic worth that makes
them more usable in the event of a socioeconomic collapse than other
currency.

Howard Ruff later repudiated much of the book. He has kept it out of
print and claims to have purchased the undistributed copies and
destroyed them. However, Ruff later published a successful financial
advisory newsletter and wrote a series of books with only slightly
milder variations on the same themes. The most popular of those books
was How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years, a best-seller in 1979.

Newsletters and a number of books on the topic of survival followed
the publication of Ruff's first book. In 1975, Kurt Saxon began
publishing a newsletter called The Survivor, which combined Saxon's
editorials with reprints of old 19th century and early 20th century
writings on various pioneer skills and old technologies. Kurt Saxon
used the term 'survivalist' to describe the movement, and he claims to
have invented the term. Around the same time, survival bookseller and
author Don Stephens in Washington state popularized the term
'retreater' to describe the movement, referring to preparations to
leave the cities to a rural retreat when society breaks down. For a
time in the 1970s, the terms 'survivalist' and 'retreater' were used
interchangably. The term 'retreater' eventually fell out of favor,
perhaps because 'survivalist' has a more macho connotation. Another
important newsletter in the 1970s was the Personal Survival Letter
published by Mel Tappan, who also authored the books Survival Guns and
Tappan on Survival. These newsletters functioned as important
networking tools for the movement during the pre-information age.

Interest in the survivalist movement perhaps peaked around 1980, on
the momentum of Ruff's How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years and
the publication in 1980 of the book Life After Doomsday by Bruce D.
Clayton. Clayton's book, coinciding with a renewed arms race between
the United States and Soviet Union, marked a shift in emphasis in
preparations made by survivalists away from economic collapse, famine,
and energy shortages which were concerns in the 1970s, to nuclear war.

Interest in the movement peaked again in 1999, triggered by fears of
the Y2K computer bug. Although extensive efforts were made to rewrite
computer programming code in response, some people nonetheless
anticipated widespread power outages, food and gasoline shortages, and
other emergencies to occur.

After the horrors of the Islamic extremist attacks on the World trade
centre in New York in 2001 and similar outrages in Bali and Spain a
resurgance of interest in survivalism started again, With the fear of
a war or jihad against the west by a minority of muslim extremists,
combined with an increase in awareness of environmental disasters and
global climate change, also coupled by the vulnerability of humanity
after the 2004 Tsunami in the Indian Ocean has once again made
Survivalism an issue of concern for many people.

Preparedness is once again in the forefront of peoples concerns and
those same people are now seeking to stockpile or cache supplies, gain
useful skills, develop contacts with others of similar outlooks and to
gain as much advice and information as possible.

All the old books have found new readership and other publications
such as RETREAT SURVIVAL which is a free booklet available on the
internet are enjoying more attention from concerned individuals and
families than ever before. At the start of the 21St Century electronic
bulltin boards have replaced many if not all paper based news
bullitins. On sites such as Yahoo Groups one can find up to the minute
discussions and debates on such subjects as Survival Vehicles,
Survival Retreats, Militias, as well as general purpose survivalist
groups[[1]
(http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query...&submit=Search).
[edit]

Common Preparations

Common preparations sometimes include preparing a clandestine or
defensible 'safe place' and stockpiling food, water, clothing, seed,
and agricultural equipment. While some survivalists do not emphasize
also stockpiling weapons, many do.

The common goal is to allow a group to remain completely
self-sufficient for the duration of the breakdown, or perhaps
indefinitely if the breakdown is predicted to be permanent.
Specifically, survivalists assume they cannot prevent the collapse,
and prepare to survive as individuals, as families, or in small
communal groups.

The term 'bugging out' is commonly used to describe a survivalist who
chooses to seek shelter in remote locations concealed from the rest of
civilization. These 'lone wolves' are similar to hermits. Their
strategy for survival is to live undetected, lying low to avoid
unwanted attention.

Survivalists make different preparations depending on which events
they are most concerned about happening. These concerns have changed
over the years. During the 1970s, economic collpase, hyperinflation,
and famine were the most common. These were prepared for with food
storage programs, constructing a "retreat" in the country which could
be farmed, and sometimes, hoarding precious metals and barterable
goods on the assumption that paper currency would become worthless.
During the early 1980s, these concerns were eclipsed by nuclear war,
with some survivalists going so far as to construct their own fallout
shelters. In 1999, many people purchased electric generators, water
purifiers, and several months or years worth of food in anticipation
of widespread and possibly months-long power outages because of the
Y2K computer bug.

Other survivalists have more specialized concerns, often related to an
adherenece to apocalyptic religious beliefs. Some New Agers anticipate
a forthcoming arrival of catastrophic earth changes and prepare to
survive them. A small percentage of evangelical Christians hold to an
interpretation of Bible prophecy known as a post-tribulation rapture,
in which Christians will have to go through a 7-year period of war and
dictatorship known as the 'Great Tribulation'. As previously noted,
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has an
official policy of food storage for its members. Some smaller
religious sects have also been known for belief in a coming apocalypse
and the adoption of some survivalist practices; among the best known
of these groups was the Branch Davidians.

Many people, who are not 'survivalists' in that they are not preparing
for any total collapse of society or apocalyptic event, nonetheless
make prudent preparations for emergencies. This can include, depending
on the location, preparing for earthquakes, floods, power outages,
blizzards, avalanches, wildfires, nuclear power plant accidents,
hazardous material spills, tornadoes, and hurricanes. These
preparations can be as simple as keeping a first aid kit, shovel, and
extra clothes in the car, or maintaining a small kit of emergency
supplies in the home and car, containing emergency food, water, a
space blanket and other essentials, commonly known as a 'bug-out bag'
or a '72-hour kit'.

Some businesses have arisen around providing survivalist supplies,
including businesses that sell complete sets of food supplies for
specified periods of time.


http://www.swfrpc.org/hurr.htm Anarchy?
http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000027.shtml Anarchy?
http://quake.ualr.edu/public/nmfz.htm Apocolypse?

http://www.fema.gov/kids/wldfire.htm Paranoia?

http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease...9_3846,00.html
Madness?

Mighty wide paint brush you use.......

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

snip
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?
snip
Given the current economic/social/political environment your
concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic
problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power,
but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of
spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide
tools and blanks. =20

Whether by design or stupidity, the American
manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being
destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant
transfer.

With the trade deficit [current account trade balance]
approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a
degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is
near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even
a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. =20

Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing)
domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills,
gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most
critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house
of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out,
replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted.

Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and
dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron
foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or
more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons
of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no
assurance that the time required will be available before America
must again meet a serious international challenge to its
existence / hegemony.=20



Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick
vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.=20

Sheesh, George. You really need to get out mo-)

Matt

Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick
vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.

Matt

Many of these are now self-service. You just put your money in the
machine, and then lie down in your coffin. :-)

Mike Mandaville

Snipped

Hi Matt, Where've you been? Crankin' out too many parts to get into any of
the ongoing arguments? g

Hey, remember that little 3-48 x .054" set screw? We finally got it running
pretty good on the Tsugami. We're making it out of 416HT stainless and are
using a Habegger adjustable thread rolling die. Almost full thread profile
right to the ends. So far, so good. (crossed fingers).

I better get out of here before I get flamed for not being on-topic enough.

John



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Hey John!


On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:11:30 -0700, "John" wrote:


Snipped

Hi Matt, Where've you been? Crankin' out too many parts to get into =
any of=20
the ongoing arguments? g

Not really. I know enough about politics to make myself look stupid,
and in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Besides,
these malcontents, no matter which side of the fence they're on, are
talking out both sides of their mouths anyway. They each think their
Opinions and Theories are FACTS, they're constantly beating each other
up with their "facts", and reality doing nothing more than trying to
cram their "facts" down our throats. Then, when someone does refute
their arguments with actual facts that they can't deny, they start
slinging personal insults. So, trying to engage them with any form of
reasoning is a nothing but a serious waste of time.


Hey, remember that little 3-48 x .054" set screw? We finally got it =
running=20
pretty good on the Tsugami. We're making it out of 416HT stainless and =
are=20
using a Habegger adjustable thread rolling die. Almost full thread =
profile=20
right to the ends. So far, so good. (crossed fingers).

Cool! Glad you got it going. It ran great on my ENC-74. The only
problem is that on that machine, it ran so slow that it was costing me
money to make your parts. I originally quoted it to run on a cam
operated Tornos R-10. The basic part ran great. Had I been able to
stop the .050" hex broach from sticking (spring loaded drill spindle
couldn't retract it every time), it would been a good job to have. As
it was, I had trouble making your deliveries because I couldn't tie my
CNC up for very long on a part for which I wasn't making any money :-(
Too bad really, it was a fun part to make. I still get a kick out of
showing it to people. "Wow! How'd you make that little bugger? & No
****! There's a hex in there?"

BTW, how are you de-burring the broached hex ID on the cut-off end?=20
I tried acid de-burr, but it cost more than the parts were worth. I
finally wound up having to pay an operator to sit and poke each part,
after looking at them to see which end was the end with the burr, from
the cut-off end and push the burr through the hex hole (shear the burr
off in the hex). Did a few thousand of them myself, as well. Major
PITA, and really rough on the eyes.


I better get out of here before I get flamed for not being on-topic =
enough.

Why? I rarely see anyone else in the group stay on topic these days:-)
(well...except those of us that were around pre-Cliff)

Take care John,

Matt

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:19:06 GMT, Matt Stawicki
wrote:

I know enough about politics to make myself look stupid,
and in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Besides,
these malcontents, no matter which side of the fence they're on, are
talking out both sides of their mouths anyway. They each think their
Opinions and Theories are FACTS, they're constantly beating each other
up with their "facts", and reality doing nothing more than trying to
cram their "facts" down our throats.

Found those "WMDs" yet?
--
Cliff