Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old June 14th 05, 08:07 PM
Too_Many_Tools
 
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Default Workshop In An Alternate Homepower Environment

I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT


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Old June 14th 05, 08:21 PM
Robert Bonomi
 
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In article . com,
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?


cordless tools violate the 'every amp is precious' premise.

Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient.


When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?


PTO-driven ones. The 'drive' can come from nerly anything -- a water-wheel,
a steam-engine, a tread-mill, etc. Even an electric motor, in extreme
circumstance.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.


Welding -- gas, instead of electric arc.

Air compressor -- gasoline/deiesel engint, steam-powered.


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Old June 14th 05, 08:29 PM
Too_Many_Tools
 
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Good point on the battery charging of cordless tools.

I was thinking that they might fit in where they could be run from the
main bank of batteries themselves.

TMT

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Old June 14th 05, 08:36 PM
MikeMandaville
 
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I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old
fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a
look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice
who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master
at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of
words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend
to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a
squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired
racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady
who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy
when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a
veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant.

Mike Mandaville
providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world

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Old June 14th 05, 08:55 PM
FriscoSoxFan
 
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1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.



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Old June 14th 05, 09:02 PM
MikeMandaville
 
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And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio
gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview"
of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an
engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid
years:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../fryintvu.html

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Old June 14th 05, 09:42 PM
arw01
 
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Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. A propane
generator might be the way to go if you already have auxilary heat that
way. Typically the machines don't run terribly long at a stretch,
except maybe a sander. My jointer and table saw only run a few minutes
max.

If your pace is slow, hand tools will get it all done. Watched alone
in the wilderness the other night. He did amazing time with cutting
through several feet of spruce tree with a large western hand saw.

Alan

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Old June 14th 05, 10:03 PM
samuelchamb
 
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends
anyone.

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.

I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this
situation and what implementations they have adopted.

Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer.

TMT

ok things that you need a genny/huge inverter for (1) air compressor
1.1kw + , (2) arc/mig,tig welder 2.2kw + , some large routers and table
saws . the list is endless . I at presant can run my 12speed pillar
drill or chop saw (not both) from my 1 kw mod inverter . high batt
voltage will help you start large motors so use in day light hours only
(solar)
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Old June 14th 05, 10:12 PM
wmbjk
 
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On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities,
what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate
homepower environment where every amp is precious?


8kW (surges to 16) can handle most everything a home shop is likely to
have. We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance
cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the
compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then
shut the pump power off before starting the cut. For prolonged cutting
at max output, I run the backup generator for boost. Lincoln SW TIG
175 can't be run at full output off our inverters, amp draw is too
high. Could be solved by trading up to an inverter based unit if I
didn't already have an engine driven substitute for the bigger jobs.
Powermig 255 seems perfectly happy at full output.

Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance.


Yuck! Perish the thought.

Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries?


Cordless tools are great for jobs where the cord is a nuisance, but
there' isn't any special need for them with home power. Careful though
if you're using some of the modsquare (often called modsine)
inverters, they can cook the chargers included with some cordless
tools.

When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws,
grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off
grid?


There aren't really any special considerations unless you're trying to
get away with too-small inverter capacity. Keep in mind that if you're
maxing out system capacity in the shop, it won't be available in the
house at the same time. Having said that, I don't bother to tell my
wife what I'm up to in the shop. If together we managed to exceed
capacity, the inverters would trip off automatically. And that could
happen more easily if for instance batteries were low, and you have
surges due to large loads starting. The temporary voltage drop might
be sensed, and cause a shutdown.

Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to
need consideration because of their unique requirements.


One thing I've done with all equipment purchases is to make sure
they're easily returnable just in case they're not compatible with the
inverters. VFDs could be an issue for instance. Although the only
thing we've ever returned due to incompatibility was a bread maker
that ran at double speed.

Wayne
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Old June 14th 05, 10:17 PM
wmbjk
 
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On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote:

1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator.
3. Buy a whole bunch of gas.
4. Start said generator
5. Plug in tools
6. Build.


Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice
for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the
long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to
solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high
energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low
energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources
and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger.
And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's
likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power
setup.

Wayne


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