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Workshop In An Alternate Homepower Environment
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a
good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. TMT |
In article . com,
Too_Many_Tools wrote: I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? cordless tools violate the 'every amp is precious' premise. Charging batteries is *extremely* ineffcient. When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? PTO-driven ones. The 'drive' can come from nerly anything -- a water-wheel, a steam-engine, a tread-mill, etc. Even an electric motor, in extreme circumstance. :) Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. Welding -- gas, instead of electric arc. Air compressor -- gasoline/deiesel engint, steam-powered. |
Good point on the battery charging of cordless tools.
I was thinking that they might fit in where they could be run from the main bank of batteries themselves. TMT |
I second what Robert Bonomi has said. What's wrong with good old
fashioned human power? Such machinery was once very common. Take a look at some pictures of old machinery, and you will find an apprentice who is busy turning a flywheel all day long, and observing his master at work, thereby gaining a firsthand knoiwledge which no number of words can communicate. Nowadays, however, such flywheel turners tend to be very expensive. Therefore, I recommend that you build yourself a squirrelcage apparatus, and purchase a greyhound to run in it. Retired racing greyhounds are put to death if nobody wants them. I know a lady who has a retired racer, and he is a wonderful pet. A racer is happy when he is racing. This is of the very nature of a racer. So give a veteran a job, for god's sake, and build a squirrelcage power plant. Mike Mandaville providing meaningful solutions for the workaday world |
1. Go to a big power tool store.
2. Buy a generator. 3. Buy a whole bunch of gas. 4. Start said generator 5. Plug in tools 6. Build. |
And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio
gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview" of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid years: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../fryintvu.html |
Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. A propane generator might be the way to go if you already have auxilary heat that way. Typically the machines don't run terribly long at a stretch, except maybe a sander. My jointer and table saw only run a few minutes max. If your pace is slow, hand tools will get it all done. Watched alone in the wilderness the other night. He did amazing time with cutting through several feet of spruce tree with a large western hand saw. Alan |
Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. TMT ok things that you need a genny/huge inverter for (1) air compressor 1.1kw + , (2) arc/mig,tig welder 2.2kw + , some large routers and table saws . the list is endless . I at presant can run my 12speed pillar drill or chop saw (not both) from my 1 kw mod inverter . high batt voltage will help you start large motors so use in day light hours only (solar) |
On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? 8kW (surges to 16) can handle most everything a home shop is likely to have. We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then shut the pump power off before starting the cut. For prolonged cutting at max output, I run the backup generator for boost. Lincoln SW TIG 175 can't be run at full output off our inverters, amp draw is too high. Could be solved by trading up to an inverter based unit if I didn't already have an engine driven substitute for the bigger jobs. Powermig 255 seems perfectly happy at full output. Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Yuck! Perish the thought. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? Cordless tools are great for jobs where the cord is a nuisance, but there' isn't any special need for them with home power. Careful though if you're using some of the modsquare (often called modsine) inverters, they can cook the chargers included with some cordless tools. When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? There aren't really any special considerations unless you're trying to get away with too-small inverter capacity. Keep in mind that if you're maxing out system capacity in the shop, it won't be available in the house at the same time. Having said that, I don't bother to tell my wife what I'm up to in the shop. If together we managed to exceed capacity, the inverters would trip off automatically. And that could happen more easily if for instance batteries were low, and you have surges due to large loads starting. The temporary voltage drop might be sensed, and cause a shutdown. Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. One thing I've done with all equipment purchases is to make sure they're easily returnable just in case they're not compatible with the inverters. VFDs could be an issue for instance. Although the only thing we've ever returned due to incompatibility was a bread maker that ran at double speed. Wayne |
On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan"
wrote: 1. Go to a big power tool store. 2. Buy a generator. 3. Buy a whole bunch of gas. 4. Start said generator 5. Plug in tools 6. Build. Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger. And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power setup. Wayne |
On 14 Jun 2005 13:42:00 -0700, "arw01"
wrote: Only real solution for running tools at home is a generator. Nonsense. Wayne |
How many of these tools are going to operate at the same time? What do
those amps add up to? With some extra margin, that is the demand you need to satisfy. It isn't the sum of all the tools, unless they will all be running at the same time. Steve "Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. TMT |
"MikeMandaville" wrote in message oups.com... And for those who might think that fart gas, otherwise known as bio gas, is unrealistic, here is the Mother Earth News "Plowboy Interview" of L. John Fry, who powered his farm with a generator turned by an engine which ran on this gas. This engine ran non-stop for six solid years: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_.../fryintvu.html AIR, it's possible to get somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-6 CF of methane from a dry pound of biomass. It's interesting to ponder how many pounds of biomass one must produce to replace the total consumption of natural gas in the US. The idea can make sense in some situations but is far from a universal solution. |
Too_Many_Tools wrote: I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? I have also considered this. I love my machine tools, but I've always dreamed of living off-grid. The compromise would be grid-connected to have the power for the tools when needed. Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Or human-power supplementing electric. For example, lathe threading done in low backgear can often be done as well or better with a handcrank on the spindle. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? Any, recharged with dedicated solar panels. When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? Old lineshaft units, driven with water power if available. Even an old-style windmill could be converted to turn a shaft. You also evaluate the way you use your tools now. 90% of my lathe work would fit in the evelope of the import 7x10 lathes, which draw about as much power as a sewing machine. With that in mind while looking at mills, I determined that most of the things I wished to use a miller for would fit well within the envelope of an Asian minimill. So far, I have not proven myself wrong. So it may be that you could do most of what you need with smaller equipment, retaining the bigger tools for the jobs that require them. Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. Welding - gas or small MIG/TIG No way around the big amp draw of a compressor that I can think of. Line-driven at night with the water power, with a big tank? Even if you could not get to the desired pressure using alternative power, a large-volume tank at, say 5- psi feeding a conventional compressor would take some of the worst load off. The amp dra on starting might not be as tough if it was fed with medium-pressure air. I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. TMT |
I think there are other considerations besides efficiency. This depends
on your method of power generation, and how often you work. Cordless tools can be useful because you can charge them when you have peak power available from your source. The same is true for compressed air. If your home's battery bank is fully charged, you can divert your energy to building spare power for the shop in your cordless batteries, and building up compression in your air tank. I also think that, depending on how you work, the loads may not be so bad. You most likely don't crank your saws constantly for hours on end. You use these things in bursts. You may be able schedule your work so that the extra load from these machines is manageable. |
I would think, that if your home were sufficient on gas/solar/whatever,
a moderate generator for the machines and any other uses would be fine. If one was careful a home shop would go weeks/months on a tank of fuel. the cost of the additional storage for the occasional use would seem overly high. I think a generator would be the cheapest solution |
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Obviously hand nonpowered tools take on a special importance. Cordless tools come to mind but which ones and what batteries? When considerng stationary tools like drills, lathes, mills, saws, grinders, etc., which ones fit best in an environment where one is off grid? Special operations like welding and using air compressors would seem to need consideration because of their unique requirements. I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. TMT Have you ever been in an Amish woodshop? The last time I was in one it had very many modern woodworking machines all driven by a jackshaft. There was a Deutz diesel engine powering the jackshaft. The amish farmers in PA where I grew up used the same diesel engine driving a jackshaft arrangement to pump water, compress air, run the refridgeration units for their bulk tanks and pump water. As a side note to this, they used an interesting pump down the well that used compressed air as power to pump the water up to a holding tank. Shawn |
Some people, unlike you, have a real life though.
"wmbjk" wrote in message ... On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan" wrote: 1. Go to a big power tool store. 2. Buy a generator. 3. Buy a whole bunch of gas. 4. Start said generator 5. Plug in tools 6. Build. Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger. And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power setup. Wayne |
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message ups.com... I am posting this subject in three different groups to hopefully get a good cross section of ideas. I apologize ahead of time if this offends anyone. When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? clip I would be interested in hearing how others have approached this situation and what implementations they have adopted. Thanks for any suggestions or comments that you can offer. I worked in a shop with no electric and no "alternative power" tools... We had a forge with bellows, anvil, hardies, tongs, etc., out back for metal shaping and welding and a large selection of files, screw plates, hacksaws, etc. For woodworking there were axes, adzes, spoke shaves, draw knives, frame saws, panel saws, rasps, spring pole lathe, etc. Light came through the windows... It's doable... At the time there was a 10 year waiting list for our output. John |
FYI...I have had several emails expressing interest in this discussion.
Some of them are from viewers in Florida who commented that this topic is revelant to their situation after last year's storms. It would seem that many were without power for many weeks/months and were living subsistence energy wise for a long period of time while they were trying to rebuild their lives and property. As one person said.." you never realize how much you rely on your power drill until you don't have the juice to run it". TMT |
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On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? Don't use the amps. I can't see any scenario where powering these tools (bigger than trivial) from an existing setup where "every amp is precious" can be viable. For lighting it's a different matter - simply upping the battery capacity might be enough. And what's the shortage here ? Amps or coulombs ? Is the limit on power (ability to deliver it) or energy (stored capacity) ? For convenience, go for a generator. You can use standard tools, the cost of doing this is low, the convenience is high. For an occasional use setup, or particularly for construction work, then this is almost always the best way. For improved efficiency, then go to lineshafts and a separate internal combustion prime mover. This is likely to mean pre-WW2 vintage tools though, and slow-speed metalworking rather than our modern high-speed cutting. One of my neighbours has a 1900 house with its original (commercial light engineering) workshop - power comes from a 12hp gas engine (town gas, not gasoline) and it powers several lathes, mill and drill by lineshaft. All still operational too! This seems more viable for wood than for metal though. With centralised lineshaft power, you're also geared up to use a water turbine. I can't see this working for wind power, but water is certainly viable. I've seen old UK cereal watermills which have had modern lathes or potter's wheels attached to them, and smithing has regularly done this to drive power hammers. The well-known Taunton press "Workshops" book has photos and drawings in it of "Ben's Mill" in Vermont, a water-powered mill with a 1900s iron water turbine, now supplemented by a tractor. A timber yard I use is on an old farm. It has a number of electric machines, but the main rip saw is powered by a tractor and flat belt. There's now a dedicated stripped-down tractor, on a permanent brick footing. A more modern approach than lineshafting is hydraulics. There are a number of US religious groups (Amish, AFAIR) where there are prohibitions on electric machinery. However a centralised diesel hydraulic power pack and individual hydraulic motors are acceptable. Not cheap though! One of the simplest options is to not use powered tools at all. Why do you need a workshop? What are you trying to make ? If you're a green woodworker than you can use a shave horse and drawknife for much shaping work, a pole, treadle or great-wheel lathe for turning (powered either by the operator, or an assistant). Many such workers may also use these in conjunction with a Wood-mizer or similar large bandsaw, with its own petrol engine. -- Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet. |
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 16:41:55 -0500, "Mike Henry"
wrote: The idea can make sense in some situations but is far from a universal solution. I've actually built one of these things. The justification was as much waste disposal (dairy farm) as it was for power generation. |
On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 20:19:59 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: "wmbjk" wrote in message .. . On 14 Jun 2005 12:55:15 -0700, "FriscoSoxFan" wrote: 1. Go to a big power tool store. 2. Buy a generator. 3. Buy a whole bunch of gas. 4. Start said generator 5. Plug in tools 6. Build. Booo! Hissss! Generators as a sole source are often the worst choice for home power. Their only advantage is low up-front cost. But in the long run they'll cost more, and are no fun to live with compared to solar/wind/inverter/battery. Home use tends to be relatively high energy but low power, while shop use tends to be high power but low energy. So adding shop power usually means increasing charging sources and batteries a little, but making the inverters substantially larger. And if one were to choose a generator well suited for shop use, it's likely to be way too big for backup on a properly sized home power setup. Wayne Some people, unlike you, have a real life though. 1. If you think that generators on their own make good sense for permanent off-grid workshops, then that's another subject that your sock puppet army doesn't know squat about. 2. Any guy who'd post under the name "pizza girl" shouldn't be allowed around electricity or power tools, unless it's for electroshock therapy, or for having a frontal lobotomy hole drilled. 3. Two of your identities, including the one you're using now, already claimed to have killfiled me, so any response from you to my posts is just more BS. Wayne |
snip
When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing) domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills, gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out, replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted. Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no assurance that the time required will be available before America must again meet a serious international challenge to its existence / hegemony. |
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F. George McDuffee wrote: snip When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing) domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills, gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out, replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted. Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no assurance that the time required will be available before America must again meet a serious international challenge to its existence / hegemony. How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ? |
Thanks for posting...actual daily experience carries alot of weight.
What is the largest motor that your equipment has? Any of them three phase? I ask because many times industrial equipment has three phase motors. Any desire for changing any of the motors to DC? TMT |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote: snip When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. =20 Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. =20 Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing) domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills, gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out, replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted. Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no assurance that the time required will be available before America must again meet a serious international challenge to its existence / hegemony.=20 Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick vacation, and then head for your local crematorium.=20 Sheesh, George. You really need to get out mo-) Matt |
"wmbjk" wrote in message ... On 14 Jun 2005 12:07:53 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: We have a few limitations - Hypertherm 600 suffers nuisance cut-outs above 45 Amps. It will also temporarily shut down if the compressor starts mid-cut. So I let the compressor tank fill, then shut the pump power off before starting the cut. I only use my compressor for about 15-30 minutes a day. Right now I'm using a gasoline generator to run it but I am considering the possibility of using a belt-driven generator and replacing the AC motor with a 12 VDC motor. For my purposes it won't matter much if it takes a little longer (lower gear ratio on the compressor) to fill the tank. I also always manage to find something to do while compressor is filling the tank anyway. The main problem I see with a 12 volt compressor is motor life and having to change the brushes etc. I also use more human-powered tools than I would if I was connected to the grid. For example I make custom picture frames and I can either (in most cases) use a big noisy double-miter saw that uses a lot of power and throws sawdust all over the place or use a foot-powered chopper that makes hardly any noise and produces wood chips that I expect will be suitable fuel for the woodgas generator that I plan to build in the not-to-distant future. A few people mentioned that cordless tools are ineffecient but hey, it sure is nice to be able to grab a cordless drill when you only need to drill a couple of small holes and not have to go start anything up or turn anything else on. |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:
F. George McDuffee wrote: snip When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing) domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills, gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out, replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted. Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no assurance that the time required will be available before America must again meet a serious international challenge to its existence / hegemony. How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ? They are as intertwined as salt and pepper. Gunner "Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F.George wrote:
snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. Thank you, Chicken Little. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Odd, that's not what my crystal ball tells me. ;-) And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated - well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword. Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! You have a significant "trade deficit" with the grocery store. How much do you spend there? Maybe $100.00/week? That's a ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS PER WEEK TRADE DEFICIT with the grocery store. They don't buy anything from you, do they? And imagine your employer's trade deficit with _you_! He buys your labor for, what, $50K, $100K/year? How much stuff do you buy from him? Your EMPLOYER HAS A SERIOUS TRADE DEFICIT WITH YOU!!!!! "Trade Deficit". Pfaugh! Thanks! Rich |
snip
And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated - well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword. Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! snip ================== Please forward this wonderful news to the International Monetary Fund [IMF], the government of Argentina and the Argentinian bondholders. It will cheer them no end. |
Greetings and Salutations....
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:29:43 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F.George wrote: snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. Thank you, Chicken Little. Hum...so you DON'T think it is a problem that America is losing the knowledge, skills and tools to manufacture even the basic tools we need to keep society going and the infrastructure kept up? With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Odd, that's not what my crystal ball tells me. ;-) And that "trade deficit" is the stupidest boogeyman ever perpetrated - well, at least up in the top five stupid boogeymen - since the nervous nellies found out that it's a scary buzzword. Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! You have a significant "trade deficit" with the grocery store. How much do you spend there? Maybe $100.00/week? That's a ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS PER WEEK TRADE DEFICIT with the grocery store. They don't buy anything from you, do they? And imagine your employer's trade deficit with _you_! He buys your labor for, what, $50K, $100K/year? How much stuff do you buy from him? Your EMPLOYER HAS A SERIOUS TRADE DEFICIT WITH YOU!!!!! "Trade Deficit". Pfaugh! Thanks! Rich UT o While your point may have some validity here, the major difference is that the money in your examples is circulating INSIDE the USA. The dollars spent in a foreign market are dollars that are taken out of the economy "forever". As an analogy, if dollars are the life-blood of the economy, foreign trade is like cutting an artery. Now...The fact of the matter is that SOME of those dollars DO come back in, but, since it is a DEFICIT, far more are going out than are coming in. Those dollars have to be replaced in the economy somehow. One "bad" way is to simply print more money. While this gets more bucks in circulation, it also cuts down on the value of each dollar. We have to remember that the world economy is more like a war than a cheerful family gathering. All the countries in the world are jockeying to gain advantage over the other countries, and, one way to do that is to drain the cash of one country. America, although economically large, is not infinite, and, if we believed we were, we would be fools. The fact that the dollar has dropped in relative value on the world market is proof that the deficits are having their desired effects. Also, remember that the growing European Union can (and perhaps already has) become a larger economic power than America. Finally, there is the basic problem that the world, in general, is not a friendly place. Countries that were our friends are now our enemies; countries that were our enemies are now our friends; The only lesson we can learn from this is that this is likely to happen again, so, to end up totally dependent on another country for our major manufacturing is a stupid thing to do. Regards Dave Mundt |
Thanks for the reply.
I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since one can recharge them during off load hours. Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to retrofit something like a table saw? In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy. TMT |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:00:35 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 10:12:06 -0500, Rex B wrote: How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ? They are as intertwined as salt and pepper. Gunner No, they aren't. Most of us who actually live with alternative power, don't consider ourselves "survivalists". I sure don't want anything to do with the label, especially after the general corruption of its meaning by the Dale Gribble types, who are often able to magically separate self-reliance from the definition. The general advantage of being able to make use of home power is to improve quality of life. For instance, off-grid land tends to be cheaper, and it's farther away from the hustle and bustle. A desire to say, have more acres farther from town rather than fewer closer in, or to get away from noise, smog, and the neighbors' yappy dogs, hasn't anything to do with the oft-blogged irrational paranoia of so-called survivalists, some of whom apparently can't even do without brand-name soda. Wayne |
Too_Many_Tools wrote: Thanks for the reply. I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since one can recharge them during off load hours. Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to retrofit something like a table saw? In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy. TMT There was a recent article in one of the wood working magazines about cordless tools on the higher end beginning to use lithium ion batteries instead of nicads. Apparently they can give one hell of a current draw and run at a slightly higher voltage (28V?). Anyway, along with the usual benefits for contractors on cordless drills and such there was great promise for cordless table saws and larger equipment due to the ability to run for extended periods at the higher current draw. It doesn't help today but there is hope in the near future for the off-gridders and job site work. Koz |
On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: Thanks for the reply. I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since one can recharge them during off load hours. Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to retrofit something like a table saw? In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy. TMT I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of AC motors with DC motors. In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general case. At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so, and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of "shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC conversion, you would have to consider each case individually. Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the battery room will the workshop be? I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later. Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower. Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right." The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again these are *small* loads. The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it elsewhere. Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid, for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC. YMMV. -=s |
Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick
vacation, and then head for your local crematorium. Matt Many of these are now self-service. You just put your money in the machine, and then lie down in your coffin. :-) Mike Mandaville |
In article .com,
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote: Thanks for posting...actual daily experience carries alot of weight. What is the largest motor that your equipment has? Any of them three phase? I ask because many times industrial equipment has three phase motors. Any desire for changing any of the motors to DC? TMT 3 Phase motors really aren't a problem if you just use a FreqDrive that is 1 Phase input and 3 Phase output. Me |
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