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Snipped Hi Matt, Where've you been? Crankin' out too many parts to get into any of the ongoing arguments? g Hey, remember that little 3-48 x .054" set screw? We finally got it running pretty good on the Tsugami. We're making it out of 416HT stainless and are using a Habegger adjustable thread rolling die. Almost full thread profile right to the ends. So far, so good. (crossed fingers). I better get out of here before I get flamed for not being on-topic enough. John ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ?
They are as intertwined as salt and pepper. Gunner I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible without being threatened by the apocalypse. I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy. Rex |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 17:29:43 GMT, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
wrote: Rich "Libertarian"? LOL ..... http://www.rackjite.com/9looney.htm I doubt that this one can wear shoes ..... knots, you know ...... -- Cliff |
"Scott Willing" wrote in message ... On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: Thanks for the reply. I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since one can recharge them during off load hours. Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to retrofit something like a table saw? In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy. TMT I really hesitate to jump in on this topic, but I advise you to make sure to do your research carefully before pursuing the replacement of AC motors with DC motors. In the early days of homepower which was nearly universally 12V on the primary side, this was a pretty common practice, but in the overall picture of things today I'm not sure it's warranted in the general case. At one time I was given to understand that DC motors are just innately more efficient than AC. It appears that this is not necessarily so, and has much to do with the crappy design and build quality of "shovelware" AC motors than any basic electromechanical principles. To know whether you would actually be further ahead after a DC conversion, you would have to consider each case individually. Ignoring power factor, a 12V load of power "x" draws 10 times the current that an 120VAC load will draw. Will the losses you avoid by bypassing the inverter get chewed up in the wire? How close to the battery room will the workshop be? I absolutely agree with what you are saying. This is why the on-grid folks are using Tesla's design and not Edison's DC idea. For a house I also think it's probably not worth the trouble to run massive wires everywhere in order to use DC effeciently. Of course the higher the voltage the smaller the wire required, which brings you right back to 115VAC. Probably better to have a few extra batteries and a couple of extra solar panels (or whatever) to cover the loss of effeciency. When I first started reading about wind generators about 20 or so years ago they were talking about 120 volt generators charging batteries in series equaling 120 VDC. According to the author most appliances wouldn't care if it was AC or DC. This idea is definately simpler than having to buy and connect an expensive sine wave inverter but I suspect that today's electronics might be a bit more particular about their input current than a 20 year old dishwasher or vacuum cleaner. If someone wanted to try it I suppose the best thing to do would be to buy a new whatever and make sure you can return it. If it explodes you go get your money back. And of course there's always the problem of short circuits burning the house down. However, for a stand-alone workshop that is to be powered seperately I would consider using DC as opposed to running a gasoline/diesel generator on one or two tools that I use regularly. For those that I only use occasionally for me it's no big deal to start up a little generator (most of my saws etc run fine from a Honda eu2000). As someone else pointed out running a compressor during peak sunlight or wind times (or when a generator happens to be running) and filling the tank can, at least in my case, supply enough air to do quite a bit of work later without having to use any additional power. Leaks, in this case, cannot be allowed to exist! I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later. Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower. Fortunately this hasn't represented a significant investment. With each system upgrade I left myself options for going to a higher primary voltage, and recently made the move to 24V when we replaced our chargerless mod square wave inverter with a sine wave inverter/charger. At some distant point in the future we might even make the jump to 48V, but for the moment, 24V was "just right." The punchline is that our little pumps (and other 12V DC loads) are now running off a 24V/12V DC-DC converter. In the overall picture of things this crazy scenario actually still makes sense here, but again these are *small* loads. Lol. As long as you don't plug a battery charger into it to charge the batteries it's running off of ;-) The moral is that when you choose to run DC loads, you're creating specialized equipment and there are serious implications that might not be immediately obvious. If you stick with AC loads, your wire runs can be far longer for a given power throughput / wire guage, you can reconfigure the primary side of your system without affecting anything on the load side, use a common AC generator when it's more convenient or more sensible to do so, or take your gear with you and use it elsewhere. I keep toying with the idea (12 volt motors) but I still use a gasoline generator for the sizeable, short use loads. When it comes right down to it I'm probably only using about 2 to 3 gallons of gasoline per month to run my tools to produce around $15,000 worth of revenue. From a business standpoint this is an insignificant expenditure. I simply manage the use of my power tools and do work in batches. I don't work after the sun goes down (usually, unless it's a RUSH order). Having "inherited" a mixed DC/AC system and lived with it, off-grid, for five years, there is no question in my mind that the new house we build here will be wired almost entirely for conventional AC and will likely have only some emergency lighting (power room!), and perhaps a few very special-purpose devices and outlets wired for DC. YMMV. -=s |
"Matt Stawicki" wrote in message ... On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 07:36:34 -0700, F. George McDuffee wrote: snip When one considers a workshop with metal and wood working capabilities, what tradeoffs have you made to have a working shop in an alternate homepower environment where every amp is precious? snip Given the current economic/social/political environment your concerns are well founded, however I think the primary or basic problem will not be limited or unavailable [electrical] power, but rather the more pervasive and dangerous problem of a lack of spare parts, raw materials and most critical HSS and carbide tools and blanks. Whether by design or stupidity, the American manufacturing/industrial infrastructure is rapidly being destroyed, primarily by management "outsourcing" and plant transfer. With the trade deficit [current account trade balance] approaching 2 billion dollars *PER DAY* it does not require a degree in rocket science or a tarot deck to see that the time is near when imports by the U.S. economy will be on a C.O.D. or even a "pre-pay" basis [in gold, not dollars]. Given the U.S. has a very limited (and rapidly diminishing) domestic production capacity for machine tools [lathes, mills, gear shapers, etc.], C.N.C. controllers, and perhaps most critical M2 HSS and carbide inserts, this means the entire house of cards will collapse as the existing machinery wears out, replacements are unobtainable, and repair cannot be attempted. Re-industrialization will be very expensive, time consuming and dangerous, as even the most basic industries such as iron foundries will have to be reestablished. Indeed, a generation or more will be required, as the evolution, techniques and lessons of the period 1890-1930 will have to be retraced, with no assurance that the time required will be available before America must again meet a serious international challenge to its existence / hegemony. Well, hell. Might as well just cash in your chips now. Take a quick vacation, and then head for your local crematorium. Sheesh, George. You really need to get out mo-) Matt Somehow methinks supply and demand will take care of itself. |
I would agree but an VFD that is unnecessary is a current draw that is
not needed. Like any system, one needs to plan a workshop as a whole. At this point, I could go single phase, 3 phase or DC motors on on all my machines. One of the reasons why I started this discussion was to make that decision based partially on the experiences of others who have hopefully gone before me. TMT |
Thanks for your posting.
Your discussion is one of the major reasons for me starting this thread. As I soon discovered when I started research into the design of an AHP workshop...that the continuing progression of technology (especially that of inverter design) changes the approach that one should take in implementing a AHP system today. While the lure to go "no power" is strong, I am no Luddite. Power tools, both portable and stationary, have their place in a AHP workshop. The opportunity to leverage consumer offerings allows one to use conventional tools with minimal hassles. I also have a large collection of older metal and wood working tools that would be awkward to convert to something other than AC. In the past, I have always had a policy of trying to do as little a modification as possible to a tool since it is never a simple as it first seems. Machine tools were designed with certain speed and torque requirements in mind and when one departs from these, the tool's performance suffers. Thanks for your input and please always feel welcome to contribute to any of my discussions. TMT |
"Andy Dingley" wrote in message
... On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:30:40 GMT, (Dave Mundt) wrote: Hum...so you DON'T think it is a problem that America is losing the knowledge, skills and tools to manufacture even the basic tools we need to keep society going and the infrastructure kept up? Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher. What's America's excuse ? Free trade. There are highly regarded experts from both ends of the political spectrum who say it's necessary. They all have jobs in the service sector and are relatively immune from foreign competition themselves. -- Ed Huntress |
"Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" wrote in
message t... Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! Uh, no. It means that we have two billion dollars worth of their crap, and they have our two billion dollars. This is not necessarily a bad deal in itself. But that's the way it is. -- Ed Huntress |
On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Rex B wrote:
How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ? They are as intertwined as salt and pepper. Gunner I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible without being threatened by the apocalypse. I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy. Rex Who said anything about "anarchy" or the apocalypse? Is that what you equate survivalism with? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism Survivalism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A survivalist is a person who anticipates a potential disruption in the continuity of local, regional or worldwide society, and takes steps to survive in the resulting unpredictable situation. Some survivalists take an interest in survival in the wilderness or at sea, while others look for opportunities to gain practice and training by assisting in government volunteer organizations. Still others look at historical incidents, either localized or affecting large regions, and put extra effort and funds into preparing themselves with all the tools and information needed to handle repeats of those same events. Survivalists have current access to modern society, but prepare for a future loss. This differentiates them from other people who endure extreme situations by living in locations isolated through winter, incursion commandos and guerrillas, and from subsistence farmers. The specific preparations made will depend on the nature of the anticipated disruption. The natures of the disruptions most commonly planned for among survivalists include: 1. Natural disasters, such as tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, blizzards, and severe thunderstorms 2. Disasters brought about by the activities of humankind: chemical spills, release of radioactive materials, war. 3. Collapse of the socioeconomic structure resulting in the unavailability of electricity, fuel, food, water, and other goods and services. Concern over the Y2K computer bug led to a brief widespread interest in survivalism in 1999 for this reason. Contents [showhide] 1 History 2 Common Preparations 3 Fringe Groups 4 Other Voices 5 In Fiction 6 External Links 6.1 Classic Survival Books [edit] History The taking of prudent precautions as a hedge against bad times is as old as history. The modern survivalist movement in the United States and Great Britain can be traced chiefly to two sources: 1. The directive of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to its members to store a year's worth of food for themselves and their families 2. The publication of Famine and Survival in America by Howard J. Ruff in 1974. Ruff's book was published during a period of rampant inflation in the wake of the 1973 oil crisis. Most of the elements of survivalism can be found there, including advice on storage of food. The book also championed the notion that precious metals, such as gold (as in South African Krugerrands) and silver, have an intrinsic worth that makes them more usable in the event of a socioeconomic collapse than other currency. Howard Ruff later repudiated much of the book. He has kept it out of print and claims to have purchased the undistributed copies and destroyed them. However, Ruff later published a successful financial advisory newsletter and wrote a series of books with only slightly milder variations on the same themes. The most popular of those books was How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years, a best-seller in 1979. Newsletters and a number of books on the topic of survival followed the publication of Ruff's first book. In 1975, Kurt Saxon began publishing a newsletter called The Survivor, which combined Saxon's editorials with reprints of old 19th century and early 20th century writings on various pioneer skills and old technologies. Kurt Saxon used the term 'survivalist' to describe the movement, and he claims to have invented the term. Around the same time, survival bookseller and author Don Stephens in Washington state popularized the term 'retreater' to describe the movement, referring to preparations to leave the cities to a rural retreat when society breaks down. For a time in the 1970s, the terms 'survivalist' and 'retreater' were used interchangably. The term 'retreater' eventually fell out of favor, perhaps because 'survivalist' has a more macho connotation. Another important newsletter in the 1970s was the Personal Survival Letter published by Mel Tappan, who also authored the books Survival Guns and Tappan on Survival. These newsletters functioned as important networking tools for the movement during the pre-information age. Interest in the survivalist movement perhaps peaked around 1980, on the momentum of Ruff's How to Prosper During the Coming Bad Years and the publication in 1980 of the book Life After Doomsday by Bruce D. Clayton. Clayton's book, coinciding with a renewed arms race between the United States and Soviet Union, marked a shift in emphasis in preparations made by survivalists away from economic collapse, famine, and energy shortages which were concerns in the 1970s, to nuclear war. Interest in the movement peaked again in 1999, triggered by fears of the Y2K computer bug. Although extensive efforts were made to rewrite computer programming code in response, some people nonetheless anticipated widespread power outages, food and gasoline shortages, and other emergencies to occur. After the horrors of the Islamic extremist attacks on the World trade centre in New York in 2001 and similar outrages in Bali and Spain a resurgance of interest in survivalism started again, With the fear of a war or jihad against the west by a minority of muslim extremists, combined with an increase in awareness of environmental disasters and global climate change, also coupled by the vulnerability of humanity after the 2004 Tsunami in the Indian Ocean has once again made Survivalism an issue of concern for many people. Preparedness is once again in the forefront of peoples concerns and those same people are now seeking to stockpile or cache supplies, gain useful skills, develop contacts with others of similar outlooks and to gain as much advice and information as possible. All the old books have found new readership and other publications such as RETREAT SURVIVAL which is a free booklet available on the internet are enjoying more attention from concerned individuals and families than ever before. At the start of the 21St Century electronic bulltin boards have replaced many if not all paper based news bullitins. On sites such as Yahoo Groups one can find up to the minute discussions and debates on such subjects as Survival Vehicles, Survival Retreats, Militias, as well as general purpose survivalist groups[[1] (http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query...&submit=Search). [edit] Common Preparations Common preparations sometimes include preparing a clandestine or defensible 'safe place' and stockpiling food, water, clothing, seed, and agricultural equipment. While some survivalists do not emphasize also stockpiling weapons, many do. The common goal is to allow a group to remain completely self-sufficient for the duration of the breakdown, or perhaps indefinitely if the breakdown is predicted to be permanent. Specifically, survivalists assume they cannot prevent the collapse, and prepare to survive as individuals, as families, or in small communal groups. The term 'bugging out' is commonly used to describe a survivalist who chooses to seek shelter in remote locations concealed from the rest of civilization. These 'lone wolves' are similar to hermits. Their strategy for survival is to live undetected, lying low to avoid unwanted attention. Survivalists make different preparations depending on which events they are most concerned about happening. These concerns have changed over the years. During the 1970s, economic collpase, hyperinflation, and famine were the most common. These were prepared for with food storage programs, constructing a "retreat" in the country which could be farmed, and sometimes, hoarding precious metals and barterable goods on the assumption that paper currency would become worthless. During the early 1980s, these concerns were eclipsed by nuclear war, with some survivalists going so far as to construct their own fallout shelters. In 1999, many people purchased electric generators, water purifiers, and several months or years worth of food in anticipation of widespread and possibly months-long power outages because of the Y2K computer bug. Other survivalists have more specialized concerns, often related to an adherenece to apocalyptic religious beliefs. Some New Agers anticipate a forthcoming arrival of catastrophic earth changes and prepare to survive them. A small percentage of evangelical Christians hold to an interpretation of Bible prophecy known as a post-tribulation rapture, in which Christians will have to go through a 7-year period of war and dictatorship known as the 'Great Tribulation'. As previously noted, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) has an official policy of food storage for its members. Some smaller religious sects have also been known for belief in a coming apocalypse and the adoption of some survivalist practices; among the best known of these groups was the Branch Davidians. Many people, who are not 'survivalists' in that they are not preparing for any total collapse of society or apocalyptic event, nonetheless make prudent preparations for emergencies. This can include, depending on the location, preparing for earthquakes, floods, power outages, blizzards, avalanches, wildfires, nuclear power plant accidents, hazardous material spills, tornadoes, and hurricanes. These preparations can be as simple as keeping a first aid kit, shovel, and extra clothes in the car, or maintaining a small kit of emergency supplies in the home and car, containing emergency food, water, a space blanket and other essentials, commonly known as a 'bug-out bag' or a '72-hour kit'. Some businesses have arisen around providing survivalist supplies, including businesses that sell complete sets of food supplies for specified periods of time. http://www.swfrpc.org/hurr.htm Anarchy? http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000027.shtml Anarchy? http://quake.ualr.edu/public/nmfz.htm Apocolypse? http://www.fema.gov/kids/wldfire.htm Paranoia? http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease...9_3846,00.html Madness? Mighty wide paint brush you use....... Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:06:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote: "Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" wrote in message t... Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! Uh, no. It means that we have two billion dollars worth of their crap, and they have our two billion dollars. This is not necessarily a bad deal in itself. But that's the way it is. Found a live one, eh? One day they will demand their VALUE back ...... as promised by that paper .... Then those taxes will ...... -- Cliff |
"Cliff" wrote in message
... On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 00:06:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress" wrote: "Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" wrote in message t... Do you even have any idea what a "trade deficit" _is_? It means we have two billion dollars more per day to spend on their crap than they have to spend on our crap. That means WE ARE TWO BILLION DOLLARS RICHER THAN THEY ARE!!!!! PER DAY!!!!!!!!!! Uh, no. It means that we have two billion dollars worth of their crap, and they have our two billion dollars. This is not necessarily a bad deal in itself. But that's the way it is. Found a live one, eh? One day they will demand their VALUE back ...... as promised by that paper .... I'm not looking forward to it. I have a feeling we're about to try, once again, to follow the pea under the shells, with Milton Friedman moderating. -- Ed Huntress |
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:42:11 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:30:40 GMT, (Dave Mundt) wrote: Hum...so you DON'T think it is a problem that America is losing the knowledge, skills and tools to manufacture even the basic tools we need to keep society going and the infrastructure kept up? Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher. What's America's excuse ? ============================== Our buzzwords are "maximizing sharholder value" with "free market" for the rondo. People go out and drink too much even though they know they will have a hang over the next day. The major difference in this case is that the people who are enjoying the party are not the ones who will suffer the hangover (and have to pay the bar tab). |
snip
Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher. What's America's excuse ? Free trade. There are highly regarded experts from both ends of the political spectrum who say it's necessary. They all have jobs in the service sector and are relatively immune from foreign competition themselves. ============================================ This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
... snip Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher. What's America's excuse ? Free trade. There are highly regarded experts from both ends of the political spectrum who say it's necessary. They all have jobs in the service sector and are relatively immune from foreign competition themselves. ============================================ This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. I didn't intend to lead that point to a discussion of how vulnerable service sector jobs are, because, as you say, that situation in general is changing fast. With tongue in cheek, I was suggesting that US government economists, so far, aren't showing much worry about having their *own* jobs outsourced to India. However, given that the ideological posture of our current administration seems to have no throttle and a seemingly unlimited fuel tank, they may give that one a try, as well. -- Ed Huntress |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... snip Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher. What's America's excuse ? Free trade. There are highly regarded experts from both ends of the political spectrum who say it's necessary. They all have jobs in the service sector and are relatively immune from foreign competition themselves. ============================================ This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
"J. R. Carroll" wrote in message
. com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. That's fine in your business, John. It's not so fine if you're making injection moldings for consumer products or assembling car engines in Detroit or Windsor. -- Ed Huntress |
snip
Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. ============================ Big problem is that you can't tell what also comes off the bottom line as a result because is concealed as higher taxes, and/or quality of life issues such as higher crime rates with increased insurance and alarm costs. It is also displaced in time, in that you may see an immediate benefit now, but much higher costs later. Think about changing the oil in your car. Don't change it now, save a little money now, pay a lot more later or do without a car. |
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. That's fine in your business, John. It's not so fine if you're making injection moldings for consumer products or assembling car engines in Detroit or Windsor. Ed, When I owned half of an injection molder we never lost a job we wanted to Asia, not once. In fact, the first big tooling/molding package we nailed down was something running in Malaysia. One project that was bid around the world was commercial binary syringe assemblies for tooth whitening gel. The quantities were 20 million units per month to start. You probably know the company we did this for. If you have a Hot Springs Spa, 90 percent of the molded parts are from my tools running in the United States. Carlsbad to be precise. I could go on here at some length as 100 million dollars per year in molded product is a lot of product. That isn't my point. In each and every case the costs of making product were lower when customers did business with us than if they made there purchase overseas. We were shipping parts on several jobs to China as a matter of fact. This is the important part - in no year between 1991 and 2002 did the company's net after tax margin fall below 18 percent of gross revenues - never, not once, period. It was almost embarrassing and we did not have a single product of our own. If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... snip Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. ============================ Big problem is that you can't tell what also comes off the bottom line as a result because is concealed as higher taxes, and/or quality of life issues such as higher crime rates with increased insurance and alarm costs. It is also displaced in time, in that you may see an immediate benefit now, but much higher costs later. Think about changing the oil in your car. Don't change it now, save a little money now, pay a lot more later or do without a car. This isn't a problem at all. Calculating the value in manufacturing is a reasonable precise and very doable exercise. It is not much of an art but does require a thougough understanding of every element involved. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
"J. R. Carroll" wrote in message
om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... This may have been true at the higher levels at one time but with telecommuting service sector jobs are also rapidly disappearing. For example many low to mid level accounting jobs such as tax returns are now done overseas. Where the jobs cannot be done externally H1B visas allow worker importation. Perhaps, but half of my customers are in Europe and Asia. My feeling is that the value you add is what customers are interested in. It goes right to their bottom line. That's fine in your business, John. It's not so fine if you're making injection moldings for consumer products or assembling car engines in Detroit or Windsor. Ed, When I owned half of an injection molder we never lost a job we wanted to Asia, not once. In fact, the first big tooling/molding package we nailed down was something running in Malaysia. One project that was bid around the world was commercial binary syringe assemblies for tooth whitening gel. The quantities were 20 million units per month to start. You probably know the company we did this for. If you have a Hot Springs Spa, 90 percent of the molded parts are from my tools running in the United States. Carlsbad to be precise. I could go on here at some length as 100 million dollars per year in molded product is a lot of product. That isn't my point. In each and every case the costs of making product were lower when customers did business with us than if they made there purchase overseas. We were shipping parts on several jobs to China as a matter of fact. This is the important part - in no year between 1991 and 2002 did the company's net after tax margin fall below 18 percent of gross revenues - never, not once, period. It was almost embarrassing and we did not have a single product of our own. If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. And are you talking about a solution for 10% of the market, or are you claiming you have a general question and a general solution for it? Because we can always make a positive anecdote of the virtues of 10%, if we neglect the fact that an economy is all 100%, and that the consequences of what happens to the other 90% eventually catches up with all of us. Sooner or later, you have to answer the question of how you compete with 80 cents/hour wages, when technology and business expertise can be packaged into shipping containers and sent to Bangalore or Shanghai just as easily as to Cleveland, and that clever ideas, hard work, and insight are distributed quite evenly around the world. -- Ed Huntress |
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. And are you talking about a solution for 10% of the market, or are you claiming you have a general question and a general solution for it? It isn't a claim Ed, it is a proven philosophy and business model. It will work wherever you choose to run it if the infrastructure is in place. Because we can always make a positive anecdote of the virtues of 10%, if we neglect the fact that an economy is all 100%, and that the consequences of what happens to the other 90% eventually catches up with all of us. Sooner or later, you have to answer the question of how you compete with 80 cents/hour wages, when technology and business expertise can be packaged into shipping containers and sent to Bangalore or Shanghai just as easily as to Cleveland, and that clever ideas, hard work, and insight are distributed quite evenly around the world. Focusing on wages is exactly the wrong thing to do. I paid the tool room guys a five dollar premium to the market, provided excellent medical benefits, paid time off, and contributed the legal maximum to our 401K for every employee at the time that was 4 to 1. You are closer to the mark with the clever ideas part however and I agree that no one group has a lock on that. If you think that GM is tanking because of their labor contracts or pension obligations you are just plain wrong. They suck hind tit because their business model if for ****. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 04:34:34 GMT, Gunner
wrote: On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 16:38:06 -0500, Rex B wrote: How did this get from "Alternative Power" to "Survivalism" ? They are as intertwined as salt and pepper. Gunner I disagree. I like the idea of off-grid living, although I may never attain it. One can be self-reliant and as independent as possible without being threatened by the apocalypse. I'm more bothered by $200 electric bills than by impending anarchy. Rex Who said anything about "anarchy" or the apocalypse? Is that what you equate survivalism with? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivalism Survivalism From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. A survivalist is a person who anticipates a potential disruption in the continuity of local, regional or worldwide society, and takes steps to survive in the resulting unpredictable situation. snipped detailed definition We all know what a survivalist is *supposed* to be. And we also know what most of the blowhard self-professed survivalists actually are. The funniest thing is that you expect people to believe that you'll have the will to do without during difficult times after TEOTWAWKI. Even though the will to do without in normal times when it's easy, is more than you can muster. http://www.swfrpc.org/hurr.htm Anarchy? You're moving to Florida? http://www.emints.org/ethemes/resources/S00000027.shtml Anarchy? So you're working on the Taft ark? http://quake.ualr.edu/public/nmfz.htm Apocolypse? You might take a more southerly route to Florida, and avoid Arkansas altogether... http://www.fema.gov/kids/wldfire.htm Paranoia? Hmm, there seems to be a trend here what a shock, a blizzard of cites that don't actually support your fears or your position. http://www.redcross.org/pressrelease...9_3846,00.html Madness? Now we're getting somewhere. A quote from that site - "families and individuals should remember that they could be preparing for upwards of three days in isolation." Is that what you think "survivalism" is? We generally go to town once a week. That's a routine six days of isolation, and it wouldn't be a hardship to go double that. Lots of rural folks go way longer, and most of them wouldn't call themselves survivalists. Here's the general idea - get your everyday **** together. If after doing that you have any time and money left over, *then* get ready for the apocalypse of your choosing. Doing it the other way around is irrational. Mighty wide paint brush you use....... That's pretty funny coming from the guy who day after day, assigns outrageously exaggerated or wholly fictional qualities to half the population. Here's a narrow brush preview of your fate should your fantasy come true - Day 1. Discovers that bluster can't be traded for butts or soda. Day 2. Loses dumpster diving access to younger competitors. Day3. Jonesin' for the Internet, because there's nobody to ask if an empty water tank is indicative of a leak. It'll all be downhill after that... Wayne |
"J. R. Carroll" wrote in message
om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. And are you talking about a solution for 10% of the market, or are you claiming you have a general question and a general solution for it? It isn't a claim Ed, it is a proven philosophy and business model. It will work wherever you choose to run it if the infrastructure is in place. Proven for what percentage of the economy? Are you suggesting this is a general model that will sustain our economy as a whole? If so, how would you apply it to, say, the manufacturing of shirts? What philosophy and business model will let you make shirts at a price/quality tradeoff that competes with rural China or Bangladesh? Child labor could help, I suppose... Because we can always make a positive anecdote of the virtues of 10%, if we neglect the fact that an economy is all 100%, and that the consequences of what happens to the other 90% eventually catches up with all of us. Sooner or later, you have to answer the question of how you compete with 80 cents/hour wages, when technology and business expertise can be packaged into shipping containers and sent to Bangalore or Shanghai just as easily as to Cleveland, and that clever ideas, hard work, and insight are distributed quite evenly around the world. Focusing on wages is exactly the wrong thing to do. I paid the tool room guys a five dollar premium to the market, provided excellent medical benefits, paid time off, and contributed the legal maximum to our 401K for every employee at the time that was 4 to 1. You are closer to the mark with the clever ideas part however and I agree that no one group has a lock on that. Your $5 premium probably was around 20% of 40% of your costs: as a round approximation, perhaps 8% of your cost of production, based on tooling-industry rules of thumb. When you're up against 80 cents/hour, how do you account for the 96% disadvantage? Do you think that improved efficiencies in general (not just yours, but those of the economy as a whole) can cover 96% differences? Any model that I know of, that points in that possible direction, is based on getting rid of all of those people you employ and adopting the values and standards of the Third World. And then business in general winds up hoist on its own petard. If you think that GM is tanking because of their labor contracts or pension obligations you are just plain wrong. They suck hind tit because their business model if for ****. So you're saying they can absorb $1,500/car just by having a better business model than Toyota or Hyundai? And then, after gaining a $1,500/car advantage over them simply through smarter organization, that they can maintain that advantage in a viciously competitive global market? These are all fine assertions, John, but I'd like to see the specifics. Frankly, I don't believe you can "business-model" your way to success when you have the kind of legacy overhead that GM has. That is, unless your business model is based on moving all of your manufacturing offshore and abandoning your legacy entitlements to the federal government. -- Ed Huntress |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
... snip If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. ============= Right on!!!!! You also need to include Ford. A major contributing factor is that they can't decide if they are banks or car companies. They also seem to have forgotten than you can't milk a "cash cow" if it is dead..... They're doing better as banks. What's your SPECIFIC suggestion, George? -- Ed Huntress |
snip
If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. ============= Right on!!!!! You also need to include Ford. A major contributing factor is that they can't decide if they are banks or car companies. They also seem to have forgotten than you can't milk a "cash cow" if it is dead..... |
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Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would agree but an VFD that is unnecessary is a current draw that is not needed. Like any system, one needs to plan a workshop as a whole. At this point, I could go single phase, 3 phase or DC motors on on all my machines. One of the reasons why I started this discussion was to make that decision based partially on the experiences of others who have hopefully gone before me. TMT I've been following this thread with some interest and now have some thoughts and comments to add to it. I may have missed something along the way, but I don't recall you specifying what type(s) of alternative energy sources you have available. This makes quite a difference in determining the best options. As an example, if your alternate source(s) provide mechanical power such as found with water power, wind power, or a solar boiler driving a turbine or steam engine, then air power could be quite advantageous. A source of mechanical energy can directly drive a compressor head, saving the extremely inefficient conversions to electricity and back. Compressed air is easy and economical to store in large volumes and is free from the chemical hazards of batteries. Useable service life of compressed air tanks is much higher than batteries as well. In addition to the obvious air tools, compressed air can also be used to power things such as refrigeration if you use the belt driven type refrigeration compressors. Those mechanical energy sources can also simultaneously drive electrical generators to charge conventional batteries for loads such as lighting. Battery charging for cordless tools is no less efficient that the charging of your "regular" battery string, as long as the charging is limited to peak energy generation times. The efficiency of converting DC from your battery string to AC so you can use conventional appliances is fairly good with modern inverters. The conversion efficiency also improves when you use a higher voltage battery string since inverters switching higher voltages at lower currents will have lower resistive / heat losses. Solar PV conversion efficiency is incredibly low to begin with and PV cost is high so if that is your only energy source you really do need to watch every miliamp. Of course, even with that inefficiency a solar PV panel charging batteries for your cordless tools is just fine as long as it has the capacity to keep up with your usage. For items like welders that require huge gulps of power it's really difficult to get away from an IC engine / generator for practicality. A decent welder / generator can serve two needs and may be the most practical solution. If you've got really good water power available you could probably use it to drive the head from an engine driven welder. A DC inverter type welder could probably be modified to accept DC from a large battery bank, but that would require you to have a fairly high voltage battery string to be practical. Someone else posted about the differences in energy needs of a shop vs. home. They had more or less the correct idea, but got their terminology a bit out of whack. A shop has mostly high peak energy loads at low duty cycles and a home has mostly low peak loads with high duty cycles. The total energy consumption over the course of a day could be similar depending on how busy the shop is. Pete C. |
"Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message om... "Ed Huntress" wrote in message ... "J. R. Carroll" wrote in message . com... "F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... If Detroit or Windsor can't stay busy or if GM files it won't be because they couldn't get the answer right. It will be because they kept asking the wrong damned question. And are you talking about a solution for 10% of the market, or are you claiming you have a general question and a general solution for it? It isn't a claim Ed, it is a proven philosophy and business model. It will work wherever you choose to run it if the infrastructure is in place. Proven for what percentage of the economy? Are you suggesting this is a general model that will sustain our economy as a whole? If so, how would you apply it to, say, the manufacturing of shirts? What philosophy and business model will let you make shirts at a price/quality tradeoff that competes with rural China or Bangladesh? Child labor could help, I suppose... Because we can always make a positive anecdote of the virtues of 10%, if we neglect the fact that an economy is all 100%, and that the consequences of what happens to the other 90% eventually catches up with all of us. Sooner or later, you have to answer the question of how you compete with 80 cents/hour wages, when technology and business expertise can be packaged into shipping containers and sent to Bangalore or Shanghai just as easily as to Cleveland, and that clever ideas, hard work, and insight are distributed quite evenly around the world. Focusing on wages is exactly the wrong thing to do. I paid the tool room guys a five dollar premium to the market, provided excellent medical benefits, paid time off, and contributed the legal maximum to our 401K for every employee at the time that was 4 to 1. You are closer to the mark with the clever ideas part however and I agree that no one group has a lock on that. Your $5 premium probably was around 20% of 40% of your costs: as a round approximation, perhaps 8% of your cost of production, based on tooling-industry rules of thumb. When you're up against 80 cents/hour, how do you account for the 96% disadvantage? Do you think that improved efficiencies in general (not just yours, but those of the economy as a whole) can cover 96% differences? Any model that I know of, that points in that possible direction, is based on getting rid of all of those people you employ and adopting the values and standards of the Third World. And then business in general winds up hoist on its own petard. If you think that GM is tanking because of their labor contracts or pension obligations you are just plain wrong. They suck hind tit because their business model if for ****. So you're saying they can absorb $1,500/car just by having a better business model than Toyota or Hyundai? No, they can do that by properly understanding and then delivering to their market. This is what they are utterly failing to do. The difference in price between a Hyundai built in Arkansas and a GM product built anywhere is much more than 1,500 dollars. As a percentage it's about half. And then, after gaining a $1,500/car advantage over them simply through smarter organization, that they can maintain that advantage in a viciously competitive global market? They do not gain any advantage with a reduced price and shouldn't try. Good value is critical in purchasing but you are talking about racing to the bottom and that is the stupidest thing I have seen in recent times. It does not work. These are all fine assertions, John, but I'd like to see the specifics. Frankly, I don't believe you can "business-model" your way to success when you have the kind of legacy overhead that GM has. That is, unless your business model is based on moving all of your manufacturing offshore and abandoning your legacy entitlements to the federal government. Just the opposite in most respects. You are smarter than this Ed. Ed, I am unable to continue this for the rest of today but I will. I read what you have written about global markets and manufacturing. The questions and their answer are largely contained in your own work and the underlying research behind it. The need to present fresh facts doesn't exist. There aren't really many fresh facts regardless. A fresh perspective is the key, as I said. You answered, intelligently I might add, the wrong question. Your work revolves around looking like a top notch vendor. This is certainly necessary but it is also the WRONG WRONG WRONG perspective. I get paid big bucks for this Ed and have yet to see anyone who will truly embrace what I provide as a service fail to flourish . I also have enough confidence in the results that I only take equity. I also, except once and not directly, don't do "turn arounds". My advice under the turn around scenario has consistently been "Get Out and do it Now". The five dollar ratio to costs was 6 percent and we knew that percentage very precisely. -- John R. Carroll Machining Solution Software, Inc. Los Angeles San Francisco www.machiningsolution.com |
"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message oups.com... Thanks for the reply. I would agree that cordless tools have a spot in the AHP workshop since one can recharge them during off load hours. Where would one find 12v motors in the suitable HP and speeds to retrofit something like a table saw? While searching for a fan motor I came across some substantial DC motors on eBay a while back. I think they may have been blower motors for furnaces or air conditioners. What I had in mind was using a belt drive. I would think it might be more difficult to find one that has the right shaft for a saw, especially one with reverse threads. Come to think of it a DC powered saw might make it possible (or at least safer) to use fluorescent lights in a shop since it would not be running at 60 Hz. Grainger has DC motors too. http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/sea...ults.jsp?xi=xi In considering this subject, a lineshaft approach does come to mind but unfortunately you rarely see the needed equipment at HD or Lowes. I am not to crazy about chucking all the stationary power tools that have taken me decades to collect. Also, lineshafts take up room, linedriven tools are required to stay in one place and cannot be mounted on wheels to optimize shop space as needed. A workshop should be no larger than necessary for the heating/cooling aspect that also takes energy. TMT |
"Scott Willing" wrote in message ... On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools" wrote: Thanks for the reply. I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later. Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower. Just curious, but how do you go to the bathroom? Composting toilet? Outhouse? |
snip
What's your SPECIFIC suggestion, George? snip Unfortunately there may be no solution in the sense of "saving" GMC, Ford, American, Delta, Northwestern, Boeing, Lockheed, etc. etc. etc. All appear to be in the same situation as were the steel companies, i.e. terminal H.I.V. patients. Like the typical HIV patent, these companies sought immediate gratification at the expense of their long-term survivability, using credit to support their "lifestyle," using derivatives as their "crack cocaine." Congress is currently nibbling around the edges of this critical problem by holding hearings into the possible impact on the PBGC if one or more of these companies/sectors should collapse. The problem is that it is a question of "when," and "in what sequence," *NOT* if. Most of the underlying real assets such as physical plant, tools and dies, knowledge base, customer base, and production/operation expertise appear to be largely intact although obsolescent. However, these have been "submerged" under mountains of debt and neglect while "management" chased the latest fad, dissipating any real income while not paying stock holder dividends nor reinvesting in new products, equipment, etc. in their core/foundational business. Additionally, these "assets" have significant value only for an on-going business. While automobile/truck manufacturing, and the design, production and operation of jumbo civilian aircraft appears to be economically viable in the United States, it does not appear the existing cadre management (and corporate culture) of these organizations is capable. "Desperate situations demand desperate remedies" is a time-proven adage. Given the disastrous impact that the cascading failures of these major players will have on the U.S. economy/society, I propose a "super bankruptcy court" be created to establish the likely economic viability of these organizations, with immediate liquidation (Chapt. 7) [not reorganization (Chapt. 11)] of those unlikely to survive, with a 10 year suspension from any management position of the current and previous corporate executives and directors. (The stockholders have already lost all their equity, although they might not yet realize this.) The PBGC should have priority claim on any assets for full pension funding, and any trust-fund/lockboxes established for management retirement benefits and/or "differed compensation" should be recaptured on the basis that this was an attempt to conceal corporate assets. The choice is not between a "good" and better" solution, but between a "bad" and a "worse" solution. |
"J. R. Carroll" wrote in message
om... If you think that GM is tanking because of their labor contracts or pension obligations you are just plain wrong. They suck hind tit because their business model if for ****. So you're saying they can absorb $1,500/car just by having a better business model than Toyota or Hyundai? No, they can do that by properly understanding and then delivering to their market. This is what they are utterly failing to do. The difference in price between a Hyundai built in Arkansas and a GM product built anywhere is much more than 1,500 dollars. As a percentage it's about half. Hyundai understands the market pretty well, too. In fact, I bought one last September, after trying out all of the Japanese and American competition. The Europeans offer no competition in that market. Any European car that's technically competitive costs $10,000 more, at the minimum. My Hyundai Sonata is a hell of a car for the money, and 'way ahead of anything comparably priced -- in other words, anything in that market. The next day I bought a Ford Focus ZX3. It's another good car for the buck, although the bottom-end Civics probably are better overall. I just liked the handling and performance; with its 2.3-liter engine, it will stomp any Civic. g I consider it a good buy, though, and not bad for an American car built in...Mexico. And then, after gaining a $1,500/car advantage over them simply through smarter organization, that they can maintain that advantage in a viciously competitive global market? They do not gain any advantage with a reduced price and shouldn't try. Good value is critical in purchasing but you are talking about racing to the bottom and that is the stupidest thing I have seen in recent times. It does not work. What does work? Are you suggesting that GM can dope out the market better than Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Audi, etc.? How would they do that? Are they somehow smarter? I don't think they're smarter. Since all of those foreign car makers have good American marketing people to serve the US market, I don't think GM has any greater knowledge of the market or greater insights into what people want. So, what's left? These are all fine assertions, John, but I'd like to see the specifics. Frankly, I don't believe you can "business-model" your way to success when you have the kind of legacy overhead that GM has. That is, unless your business model is based on moving all of your manufacturing offshore and abandoning your legacy entitlements to the federal government. Just the opposite in most respects. You are smarter than this Ed. I thought I was until I spent a year of research in preparation for the 5,000 word articles I wrote about China trade a couple of years ago. Now I realize we're living on a heap of wishful thinking and baloney. Any advantages we have are going away very quickly. In fact, our multinationals are shipping the advantages offshore as fast as they can. I'm waiting for the Milton Friedman dollar devaluation, but there will be hell to pay if and when it happens. The recent devaluation ain't it. Ed, I am unable to continue this for the rest of today but I will. I read what you have written about global markets and manufacturing. The questions and their answer are largely contained in your own work and the underlying research behind it. The need to present fresh facts doesn't exist. There aren't really many fresh facts regardless. A fresh perspective is the key, as I said. You answered, intelligently I might add, the wrong question. Your work revolves around looking like a top notch vendor. This is certainly necessary but it is also the WRONG WRONG WRONG perspective. I get paid big bucks for this Ed and have yet to see anyone who will truly embrace what I provide as a service fail to flourish . I also have enough confidence in the results that I only take equity. I also, except once and not directly, don't do "turn arounds". My advice under the turn around scenario has consistently been "Get Out and do it Now". When you get some time, John, it would be good to hear more about what you're saying. It's one of the most important issues in metalworking today, if not THE most important issue. The five dollar ratio to costs was 6 percent and we knew that percentage very precisely. Well, 8% was reasonably close, then. d8-) -- Ed Huntress |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message ... snip What's your SPECIFIC suggestion, George? snip "Desperate situations demand desperate remedies" is a time-proven adage. Given the disastrous impact that the cascading failures of these major players will have on the U.S. economy/society, I propose a "super bankruptcy court" be created to establish the likely economic viability of these organizations, with immediate liquidation (Chapt. 7) [not reorganization (Chapt. 11)] of those unlikely to survive, with a 10 year suspension from any management position of the current and previous corporate executives and directors. (The stockholders have already lost all their equity, although they might not yet realize this.) How about making the share holders liable for the debt. They are after all "owners" of the companies :-) The PBGC should have priority claim on any assets for full pension funding, and any trust-fund/lockboxes established for management retirement benefits and/or "differed compensation" should be recaptured on the basis that this was an attempt to conceal corporate assets. The choice is not between a "good" and better" solution, but between a "bad" and a "worse" solution. |
Interesting comments by a former Fed chairman: NewsMax.com Wires Friday, June 10, 2005 "Former Fed Chairman Paul Volcker said he doesn't see how the U.S. can keep borrowing and consuming while letting foreign countries do all the producing. It's a recipe for American economic disaster. On Thursday the Wall Street Journal reported bluntly that "Mr. Volcker thinks a crisis is likely." [snip]" Rest of article he http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...9/161923.shtml JLD |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote in message
... "Desperate situations demand desperate remedies" is a time-proven adage. Given the disastrous impact that the cascading failures of these major players will have on the U.S. economy/society, I propose a "super bankruptcy court" be created to establish the likely economic viability of these organizations, with immediate liquidation (Chapt. 7) [not reorganization (Chapt. 11)] of those unlikely to survive, with a 10 year suspension from any management position of the current and previous corporate executives and directors. (The stockholders have already lost all their equity, although they might not yet realize this.) The PBGC should have priority claim on any assets for full pension funding, and any trust-fund/lockboxes established for management retirement benefits and/or "differed compensation" should be recaptured on the basis that this was an attempt to conceal corporate assets. The choice is not between a "good" and better" solution, but between a "bad" and a "worse" solution. Jeez, you're brutal. g I'm going to wait to hear if John has a solution that's less drastic. -- Ed Huntress |
snip
How about making the share holders liable for the debt. They are after all "owners" of the companies :-) snip This simply echos a legal fiction. In fact 'shareholders' have almost no control, otherwise the corporations would have been forced to declare dividends rather than hording cash, and the executives would have received human salaries. While there is more than ample "blame" to go around, the major enablers were the financial institutions that handled the IPOs, made the loans, audited the books, created the "special purpose entities," managed the pension funds, etc. As such, these should be the people that get the big "hair cut" [like down to their knees] rather than the employees or taxpayers [who tend to be the shareholders when the music stops]. |
OMFG!! You have to be kidding me Mr Libertarian. The question is, do
you spend 2 billion at home, or in China? Do you honestly think it's a good sign that we send $2 billion to foreign countries instead of spending it here at home? We have plenty of 3rd-world states here in the USA that could use $2 billion a day. I'm guessing that you live in one of them. |
"F. George McDuffee" wrote:
snip How about making the share holders liable for the debt. They are after all "owners" of the companies :-) snip This simply echos a legal fiction. In fact 'shareholders' have almost no control, ... No fiction, fact. All you have to do is to get a majority to agree w/ you, go to annual meeting and vote w/ you, and you can do whatever you want... |
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