|
Cliff expostulated:
| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | || Maytag | | My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's | no better than anyone else's. Their top end (like their competitors' top end) products /are/ highly priced. In at least Maytag's case the top end products are, in fact, as good as they can make 'em. The R&D guys actually talk to the production assemblers, pay attention to what they say, and make product changes on the basis of their suggestions. More usually (elsewhere) an assembly person has to tell a foreman who might or might not tell a supervisor - and so on up the ladder until there's an information "bridge" back down the chain to the R&D guys. The Maytag link to the customer call center is disconcertingly direct. When I first arrived I had a "recycled" R&D phone number and got calls from CS call center operators demanding that problems be fixed *RIGHT NOW!* That I wasn't the person they thought they were calling didn't seem to make any difference - nor did the fact that I wasn't even a Maytag employee. One gal told me that didn't matter and that I'd better get up off my butt and *FIND OUT* who should be fixing this problem and make 'em aware of it and have them get back to her posthaste. Maytag could never get away with showing a commercial of that scene (can't admit right out loud in front of God and everybody that someone's had a problem with /our/ product!); but after I came out of shock I decided it was actually pretty impressive. Again, it's noteworthy that in all of these "hot" calls the communication was between "indians". Convinced me that Maytag's problems are top-down rather than bottom-up. I'm not in a position to comment on "overpriced" - but I think that when someone buys a washing machine (or whatever), not all of what's being purchased arrives on the delivery truck. Hmm. Reminds me of some current threads about CNC equipment and perceived value (or lack thereof) of customer support organizations. | Perhaps unerelated ... Sears seems to like to | sell models that they (Sears) are the sole supplier | of spare parts for .... so take a standard model, | rebadge it & alter a few key failure prone or | consumable items ... That would match up pretty well with some of the (very biased) comments I heard voiced around Newton. :-) -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. Now either show where I said that gas was better than solar for hot water or admit that you are a shameless liar. |
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:16:38 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. ?? You might show the *exact* quote where you believe I wrote any such thing. I always thought you were either being penny-wise and pound-foolish, or just too bloody lazy and pig-headed to do solar. Although after all your blundering about tracking and Kill a Watts not being worth the bother, it certainly wouldn't have surprised me to read you claiming that solar water heating was equally worthless. Now either show where I said that gas was better than solar for hot water or admit that you are a shameless liar. Are you retarded? Wayne |
F. George McDuffee expostulated:
| As a followon to another post I just made, see WSJ article Wed | June 22 on this. | | I ask the same question about Whirlpool that I asked about | Maytag. How much did they claim on their tax returns for market | research and product R&D over the last 5 to 10 years? It is | clear they did not do any. I think you're mistaken. Whilrpool has introduced some well-developed new products (this according to engineering folks at one of their main competitors) and I've purchased a number (more than a half dozen) of top rate new Kitchen-Aid (a Whirlpool brand) appliances for my own home. The folks at Maytag weren't exactly thrilled to hear me praise Whirlpool/Kitchen-Aid, but did pay close attention when I listed the features I liked best. I have to believe thay spent some reasonable amount of R&D money to produce just the products I happened to buy - and that new products don't just appear gratis on some design engineer's CAD screen. FWIW, I suspect that they spent really serious money developing their "Duet" laundry appliances. -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
You place a lot of importance on this trolls opinion George. Most are sick
of you ****ing in his corner all the time. "George Ghio" wrote in message ... wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. Now either show where I said that gas was better than solar for hot water or admit that you are a shameless liar. |
wmbjk wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:16:38 +1000, George Ghio wrote: wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. ?? You might show the *exact* quote where you believe I wrote any such thing. I always thought you were either being penny-wise and pound-foolish, or just too bloody lazy and pig-headed to do solar. Although after all your blundering about tracking and Kill a Watts not being worth the bother, it certainly wouldn't have surprised me to read you claiming that solar water heating was equally worthless. 20/6/05 12:32 AM this NG Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar* power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". Guess your a liar. |
If you pay attentionyou will learn something.
John P Bengi wrote: You place a lot of importance on this trolls opinion George. Most are sick of you ****ing in his corner all the time. "George Ghio" wrote in message ... wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. Now either show where I said that gas was better than solar for hot water or admit that you are a shameless liar. |
For sure! I will learn that you are easily trolled by losers and a real
piece of work. Step back from the keyboard and take the hook out of your mouth. "George Ghio" wrote in message ... If you pay attentionyou will learn something. John P Bengi wrote: You place a lot of importance on this trolls opinion George. Most are sick of you ****ing in his corner all the time. "George Ghio" wrote in message ... wmbjk wrote: On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. Now either show where I said that gas was better than solar for hot water or admit that you are a shameless liar. |
"Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Arnold Walker" wrote: Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance, and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries, and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling Stock. Me Then you are bull**** ....Time Warner Theme parks for starts have done that on most of thier trains. There are historic trains all over the US running at this time. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
Your are correct on equal danger.....but that is not the way some insurance
companies see it. When you first built up an engine it is air tested,so virtual all steam piston engine's start life on air drive. One problem with theme parks like Disney is that the employees were used to IC engines. And waste a lot of steam because they don't understand the point of a throttle and a cutout(variable timing link in other words) The reason ,about seven steam trains are missing from Disney World. Both good air and good steam operation gets max. expansion for the unit of work done. Steam is a little tricker because of overexpansion in the right conditions.Air usually is retarded 10 degrees behind the the setting used for a steamengine on a given load. Look around and we will find at least one historical steam train running in virtually every state.....Texas has three,Colorado has two,and so on. One irony about your steamtrain remark....is that in the Golden Era of steam the major number of the locomotives in operation were industrial not commerical service. In my hometown in East Texas during that time period....there were seven railroad lines running thru town. Missouri and Southern Pacific had two lines with Southern Pacific furnishing all contract rail and locomotive maintenance service.And the rest of the lines were sawmill trains hauling timber out of the woods. Many quarries,mines,and shipyards had trains for do-it-yourself short line work in other parts of the country. "Juergen Hannappel" wrote in message ... Me writes: In article , "Arnold Walker" wrote: Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be Bull****.... I think so too, especially because even without the water an old boiler pressurized with air is also no small danger. the only Steampowered Trains still in existance, and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries, There *might* be some stored steam engines still running, typically in chemistry or power plants where steam is available anyway and can be filled into the engine easily. -- Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869 Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23 ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:26:46 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: wmbjk wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:16:38 +1000, George Ghio wrote: So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. ?? You might show the *exact* quote where you believe I wrote any such thing. I always thought you were either being penny-wise and pound-foolish, or just too bloody lazy and pig-headed to do solar. Although after all your blundering about tracking and Kill a Watts not being worth the bother, it certainly wouldn't have surprised me to read you claiming that solar water heating was equally worthless. 20/6/05 12:32 AM this NG Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar* power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". Guess your a liar. And I guess you have some reading comprehension issues. Here's your own quote that I was referring to when I wrote "more appropriate". Jan 27, 2005, George Ghio - "The key word is "Designed" I use propane for cooking, fridg and hot water. Gas is an appropriate energy source for these jobs." Now, perhaps my use of "more" was a poor choice of words, but since you started off by mentioning a "design", it seems clear to me that you wrongly believed (or did believe) that propane *was* "more" appropriate for water heating in your application. Anyway, I'm surprised you wanted me to look up that post, given it was the same one where you wrote about the magic 8000 kWhr propane bottle. Enjoy - "This comes to 1 - 45Kg bottle of gas every 6 - 8 weeks depending on time of year. LPG is 50.1Mj/kg (45Kg = 2254.5Mjor the equal of 8116.2 kWh)" Did you ever own up to that blunder? Of course not, you never do. It turns out there was something else topical in that post, when in the course of trying to minimize the use of a generator to power your "design", you wrote this - "The only things the gen runs in the house is the vacuume." Disregarding the fact that laundry isn't often counted as a shop load, the vacuum comment is kinda' strange given that in this very thread you also wrote - "My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them." So, is the generator in the house, or in the shop? If it's in the shop, then how does it power a "vacuume", in the house? Let me guess... your "design" includes an extension cord, which in OZ, doesn't count as a "connection"? I'm thinking we'll get to the bottom of the Three Card Monte house/shop/generator about the same time you explain the magic propane bottle. Wayne |
On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 00:03:43 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: For sure! I will learn that you are easily trolled by losers and a real piece of work. Step back from the keyboard and take the hook out of your mouth. "George Ghio" wrote in message ... If you pay attentionyou will learn something. Still not a single useful off-grid workshop comment from either of you. What a surprise, you two are friggen made for each other. Gymmy Bob, get your butt on down to the swap meet, snarf up some of those corded cordless drills and a few 8000 kWhr propane bottles, and hang out your "solar power consultant" shingle. Wayne |
Me wrote:
In article , "Arnold Walker" wrote: Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance, and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries, and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling Stock. Me I'm just jumping into this thread, so I haven't seen what set it off, but here are a few facts... There are still a lot of steam locomotives in service around the country in excursion service. They all run in the traditional way - oil or coal or wood burned to make steam to move a piston. Note the repeated changes in the state of the energy. Each time you make such a change you lose a lot of energy - simple thermodynamics. Reconditioned/restored old steam locos are often run on compressed air for safety testing. They don't actually go anywhere that way. Let's look at an energy balance. Energy to heat water from 60 F to 212 F - 152 BTU/lb. Energy to convert water at 212 F to steam at 212 F and 0 psig - 970 BTU/lb. Energy to take steam at 0 psig to 300 psig - 235 BTU/lb. Adding these up, the total energy to take water at 60 F to steam at 300 psig is 1357 BTU/lb. The only portion of this that is usable is the energy in the steam. If the steam enters the cylinder at 300 psig and leaves at 0 psig the actual energy used to do work is 235 BTU/lb, or 17.3% of the energy added to the water in the tender. Now add in all the losses involved in converting coal or oil to steam (less than 50% efficient) and you can see that a steam locomotive is very inefficient. So what about compressed air? If you look at the volumes involved you will see that it is just not practical. 1 cu.ft. of air at 3000 psig is about 200 cu.ft. of air at 0 psig. 1 cu.ft of water is about 1630 cu.ft. of steam at 0 psig. A UP Big Boy locomotive used about 100 gallons (13.3 cu.ft) of water per mile on flat ground with a full 7000 ton cargo load. That means that to run on compressed air it would need a storage tank capable of holding 3000 psig pressures of over 800 gallons to run one mile! Just how close would the compressed air refueling stations need to be, and how much would it cost to compress the air? Sure compressed air is great in the shop, but do you really care if it costs you 6 cents/hour instead of 2 cents/hour to run your pad sander? By the same token, why are there no table saws that run on compressed air? Probably because most of us have neither the money nor the space for a compressor large enough to do the job. Note that this is a reply to the whole thread, not to the actual poster the reply is posted to. In face, he is right. Going from the rotary output of a deisel engine to compresed air to reciprocating motion of pistons is very inefficient, and that doesn't even take into account all of the other problems (non-energy related) of reciprocating piston locomotive drivers. Peter -- -- PeterZ -- |
wmbjk wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 13:26:46 +1000, George Ghio wrote: wmbjk wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:16:38 +1000, George Ghio wrote: So, You lied. Plain and simple. I never said that Solar Hot Water was not worth the trouble or that gas, elecrtic hot water was better than solar hot water. ?? You might show the *exact* quote where you believe I wrote any such thing. I always thought you were either being penny-wise and pound-foolish, or just too bloody lazy and pig-headed to do solar. Although after all your blundering about tracking and Kill a Watts not being worth the bother, it certainly wouldn't have surprised me to read you claiming that solar water heating was equally worthless. 20/6/05 12:32 AM this NG Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar* power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". Guess your a liar. And I guess you have some reading comprehension issues. Here's your own quote that I was referring to when I wrote "more appropriate". Jan 27, 2005, George Ghio - "The key word is "Designed" I use propane for cooking, fridg and hot water. Gas is an appropriate energy source for these jobs." Now, perhaps my use of "more" was a poor choice of words, but since you started off by mentioning a "design", it seems clear to me that you wrongly believed (or did believe) that propane *was* "more" appropriate for water heating in your application. Your use of the word "more" was a deliberate, (adj: By conscious design or purpose; "intentional damage"; "a knowing attempt to defraud"; "a willful waste of time"), LIE Anyway, I'm surprised you wanted me to look up that post, given it was the same one where you wrote about the magic 8000 kWhr propane bottle. Enjoy - "This comes to 1 - 45Kg bottle of gas every 6 - 8 weeks depending on time of year. LPG is 50.1Mj/kg (45Kg = 2254.5Mjor the equal of 8116.2 kWh)" Did you ever own up to that blunder? Of course not, you never do. 626 kWh It turns out there was something else topical in that post, when in the course of trying to minimize the use of a generator to power your "design", you wrote this - "The only things the gen runs in the house is the vacuume." Disregarding the fact that laundry isn't often counted as a shop load, the vacuum comment is kinda' strange given that in this very thread you also wrote - "My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them." So, is the generator in the house, or in the shop? If it's in the shop, then how does it power a "vacuume", in the house? Let me guess... your "design" includes an extension cord, which in OZ, doesn't count as a "connection"? I'm thinking we'll get to the bottom of the Three Card Monte house/shop/generator about the same time you explain the magic propane bottle. Ah, I see. The workshop has no effect on the house system. No energy generated by the house system is used in the workshop, and no energy generated in the workshop is used to boost the house system. As the floors in the house are slate, brick and concrete guess how much the vacuume is used compared to the broom. Oh, sorry the broom has no motor fitted so I guess you wouldn't know how it works. You still have not provided proof of your glue gun ticket, nor have explained your overwhelming penchant for consumer goods. Did you know that you can bake 4 loaves of bread in the same time it takes to bake 1 loaf in a bread machine? Funny that, Eh. Not everybody want to live your couch potato lifestyle. Then there is the little matter of why anyone should take advice from you when you can't even define "Days of Autonomy" without some imaginative "Reduction of Load". Industry standard is Days of Autonomy at the normal daily load. |
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:35:00 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: wmbjk wrote: And I guess you have some reading comprehension issues. Here's your own quote that I was referring to when I wrote "more appropriate". Jan 27, 2005, George Ghio - "The key word is "Designed" I use propane for cooking, fridg and hot water. Gas is an appropriate energy source for these jobs." Now, perhaps my use of "more" was a poor choice of words, but since you started off by mentioning a "design", it seems clear to me that you wrongly believed (or did believe) that propane *was* "more" appropriate for water heating in your application. Your use of the word "more" was a deliberate, (adj: By conscious design or purpose; "intentional damage"; "a knowing attempt to defraud"; "a willful waste of time"), LIE Says you... I just thought that the same type of self-destructive stubbornness that drove you to come out against AGM batteries, PV tracking, and Kill a Watts was also the cause of your failure to use the sun to heat water. Anyway, I'm surprised you wanted me to look up that post, given it was the same one where you wrote about the magic 8000 kWhr propane bottle. Enjoy - "This comes to 1 - 45Kg bottle of gas every 6 - 8 weeks depending on time of year. LPG is 50.1Mj/kg (45Kg = 2254.5Mjor the equal of 8116.2 kWh)" Did you ever own up to that blunder? Of course not, you never do. 626 kWh What prompted you to finally own up to but a single blunder? Have you run out of storage space? It turns out there was something else topical in that post, when in the course of trying to minimize the use of a generator to power your "design", you wrote this - "The only things the gen runs in the house is the vacuume." Disregarding the fact that laundry isn't often counted as a shop load, the vacuum comment is kinda' strange given that in this very thread you also wrote - "My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them." So, is the generator in the house, or in the shop? If it's in the shop, then how does it power a "vacuume", in the house? Let me guess... your "design" includes an extension cord, which in OZ, doesn't count as a "connection"? I'm thinking we'll get to the bottom of the Three Card Monte house/shop/generator about the same time you explain the magic propane bottle. Ah, I see. The workshop has no effect on the house system. No energy generated by the house system is used in the workshop, and no energy generated in the workshop is used to boost the house system. As the floors in the house are slate, brick and concrete guess how much the vacuume is used compared to the broom. Oh, sorry the broom has no motor fitted so I guess you wouldn't know how it works. Check your quote nitwit, you didn't say that the *workshop* powered the vacuum, you said that the *generator* powered the vacuum, but that there was no "connection" between house and workshop. However did you get the nickname "Weasel"? Given your repeated motivational speeches in favor of brooms, my guess is that you don't even own a vacuum cleaner. But if you do, you're powering it with a generator at the house or dragged over from the workshop, or by using an extension cord. No matter, the supposedly invisible "connection" is just another of your custom-home/power-system "design" elements requiring support by bafflegab . , nor have explained your overwhelming penchant for consumer goods. My "penchant" as you call it, is much closer to average than yours. Not many people find it preferable to run a generator for small appliances, or to idiotically rationalize doing without them. Did you know that you can bake 4 loaves of bread in the same time it takes to bake 1 loaf in a bread machine? Funny that, Eh. You seem to have quite the jihad going against bread machines. Perhaps with some hypnotism we could get to the bottom of that. Or could it simply be that you're against *anything* that draws more current than your "design" can accommodate? BTW, my wife bakes bread in the oven. She uses the bread machine to mix, rise, knead etc. while she's doing other chores. She could kick your ass around the kitchen or around the business office, and would kick mine too if I was ****ing away money on propane in order to save a few days work on solar water heating. Not everybody want to live your couch potato lifestyle. If being a "couch potato" means taking less than 20 years to knock off a few days project, perhaps you should try it. Then there is the little matter of why anyone should take advice from you when you can't even define "Days of Autonomy" without some imaginative "Reduction of Load". Industry standard is Days of Autonomy at the normal daily load. Unless using a generator or propane is harder than I thought, you're not qualified to be judging anyone on matters solar. Should that notion ever make the impossible journey through your skull, you'll find the going a little easier in these newsgroups. Wayne |
Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article , Ulysses wrote: "Me" wrote in message ... In article , "Ulysses" wrote: "wmbjk" wrote in message m... On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C." wrote: Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads. How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot" wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't they need to be out of phase with each other? Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase, depending on the connection. Me Something else I've wondered about is why is it sometimes called 220, other times 230, and also 240VAC? Do the different voltages imply single or double phase or is it just a matter of different voltages in different geographic locations? My little Honda generator is rated at 125 VAC which seems to be unusual and that would give us 250 VAC if it was ran through the step-up transformer. It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got better. Circa WW II line voltage was 110VAC. by the mid 50's, this had climbed to 115VAC. by the early 60's, 117VAC. By the late 60', 120V. The 'two hots' circuit was frequently called "220", even when the actual voltage was as high as 235 (2x117). "240" does seem to have mostly displaced the old name. Anyway, if somebody mentions a number in the 110-120 "or so" range, they're talking about the same thing. Ditto for anything in the 220-240 range. "208" is a "special" value. as is "277". Both having to do with specific arrangements of 'three-phase' circuits. Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation. 125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases. I've seen 125V used in high density housing - simply to lower the current in the same wires. Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging transformer. Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased, the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end. The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang (voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact. So at one time or another, depending on load and speed of the swinger - it could be many voltages. Martin -- Martin Eastburn @ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
wmbjk wrote: On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 07:35:00 +1000, George Ghio wrote: wmbjk wrote: And I guess you have some reading comprehension issues. Here's your own quote that I was referring to when I wrote "more appropriate". Jan 27, 2005, George Ghio - "The key word is "Designed" I use propane for cooking, fridg and hot water. Gas is an appropriate energy source for these jobs." Now, perhaps my use of "more" was a poor choice of words, but since you started off by mentioning a "design", it seems clear to me that you wrongly believed (or did believe) that propane *was* "more" appropriate for water heating in your application. Your use of the word "more" was a deliberate, (adj: By conscious design or purpose; "intentional damage"; "a knowing attempt to defraud"; "a willful waste of time"), LIE Says you... I just thought that the same type of self-destructive stubbornness that drove you to come out against AGM batteries, PV tracking, and Kill a Watts was also the cause of your failure to use the sun to heat water. AGM batteries. Problem - end user. PV Tracking. Problem - most not relible enough, - further problem - enduser wants a bargain Refuses to pay for quality or do maint. Kill a Watt. Problem - You use it for entertainment. Problem lies with end user not the Kill a Watt. Solar Hot Water. Problem - None Anyway, I'm surprised you wanted me to look up that post, given it was the same one where you wrote about the magic 8000 kWhr propane bottle. Enjoy - "This comes to 1 - 45Kg bottle of gas every 6 - 8 weeks depending on time of year. LPG is 50.1Mj/kg (45Kg = 2254.5Mjor the equal of 8116.2 kWh)" Did you ever own up to that blunder? Of course not, you never do. 626 kWh What prompted you to finally own up to but a single blunder? Have you run out of storage space? It turns out there was something else topical in that post, when in the course of trying to minimize the use of a generator to power your "design", you wrote this - "The only things the gen runs in the house is the vacuume." Disregarding the fact that laundry isn't often counted as a shop load, the vacuum comment is kinda' strange given that in this very thread you also wrote - "My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them." So, is the generator in the house, or in the shop? If it's in the shop, then how does it power a "vacuume", in the house? Let me guess... your "design" includes an extension cord, which in OZ, doesn't count as a "connection"? I'm thinking we'll get to the bottom of the Three Card Monte house/shop/generator about the same time you explain the magic propane bottle. Ah, I see. The workshop has no effect on the house system. No energy generated by the house system is used in the workshop, and no energy generated in the workshop is used to boost the house system. As the floors in the house are slate, brick and concrete guess how much the vacuume is used compared to the broom. Oh, sorry the broom has no motor fitted so I guess you wouldn't know how it works. Check your quote nitwit, you didn't say that the *workshop* powered the vacuum, you said that the *generator* powered the vacuum, but that there was no "connection" between house and workshop. However did you get the nickname "Weasel"? Given your repeated motivational speeches in favor of brooms, my guess is that you don't even own a vacuum cleaner. But if you do, you're powering it with a generator at the house or dragged over from the workshop, or by using an extension cord. No matter, the supposedly invisible "connection" is just another of your custom-home/power-system "design" elements requiring support by bafflegab . , nor have explained your overwhelming penchant for consumer goods. My "penchant" as you call it, is much closer to average than yours. Not many people find it preferable to run a generator for small appliances, or to idiotically rationalize doing without them. Did you know that you can bake 4 loaves of bread in the same time it takes to bake 1 loaf in a bread machine? Funny that, Eh. You seem to have quite the jihad going against bread machines. Perhaps with some hypnotism we could get to the bottom of that. Or could it simply be that you're against *anything* that draws more current than your "design" can accommodate? BTW, my wife bakes bread in the oven. She uses the bread machine to mix, rise, knead etc. while she's doing other chores. She could kick your ass around the kitchen or around the business office, and would kick mine too if I was ****ing away money on propane in order to save a few days work on solar water heating. Oh, so she saves ten minutes, wonderful, My bread raises all by itself. Not everybody want to live your couch potato lifestyle. If being a "couch potato" means taking less than 20 years to knock off a few days project, perhaps you should try it. Have done it before, will do it again, Then there is the little matter of why anyone should take advice from you when you can't even define "Days of Autonomy" without some imaginative "Reduction of Load". Industry standard is Days of Autonomy at the normal daily load. Unless using a generator or propane is harder than I thought, you're not qualified to be judging anyone on matters solar. Should that notion ever make the impossible journey through your skull, you'll find the going a little easier in these newsgroups. Reserved for further posting Wayne |
In article ,
lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net" wrote: Robert Bonomi wrote: [[.. munch ..]] It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got better. [[.. munch ..]] Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation. 125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases. Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging transformer. Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased, the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end. The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang (voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact. At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station. the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps. *OUCH*. Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big* hospital, And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks. A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly and somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a week-day. *THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.) For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare. :) They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening". That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'. I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within about 2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit (readable to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen other locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter / data- logger. :) They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!" (He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my phone, called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up. Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later, my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down. I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high' voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid. |
"John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote in message ... Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything. Nor, does George seem to contribute anything other than his definition of 'days of autonomy' and his harping on Wayne about it. George might consider some help since his 'days of autonomy' mantra seems to have taken over his entire existence and pushed out any other helpful contributions. The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it has degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match). The OP might as well just start a new thread to ask any new questions, these two guys will not contribute anything more to the discussion, and most of us recognize the YAWVGM and ignore the thread from here on. Moving on..... daestrom |
Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article , lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net" wrote: Robert Bonomi wrote: [[.. munch ..]] It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got better. [[.. munch ..]] Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation. 125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases. Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging transformer. Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased, the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end. The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang (voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact. At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station. the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps. *OUCH*. Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big* hospital, And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks. A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly and somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a week-day. *THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.) For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare. :) They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening". That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'. I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within about 2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit (readable to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen other locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter / data- logger. :) They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!" (He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my phone, called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up. Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later, my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down. I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high' voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid. I call bull**** on the credit! As if.............. |
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 15:09:46 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: wmbjk wrote: I just thought that the same type of self-destructive stubbornness that drove you to come out against AGM batteries, PV tracking, and Kill a Watts was also the cause of your failure to use the sun to heat water. AGM batteries. Problem - end user. With any type of battery, on a good system the charge controller limits overcharging, an inverter limits depth of discharge, and either the controller or the inverter handles equalizing. But on AGMs, there's no water to check. So what *exactly* is there for the owner to screw up? Besides, you started out by condemning AGMs based solely on your outdating "training". You only invented this fictitious "owner" problem once more knowledgeable folks corrected your original blunder. Face it George, AGMs are successfully used, particularly where it's suspected that owners might not keep up with checking the water on flooded batteries. PV Tracking. Problem - most not relible enough, Baloney. And not being "relible" was only part of your position. You also used made-up numbers to claim that tracking doesn't add sufficient production. I don't believe you'd ever even considered the improvement in charging time versus discharge time, despite having gone through several sets of batteries in your own setup, which could have been a lesser problem with the improvement of the lengthened charging day tracking provides. - further problem - enduser wants a bargain Refuses to pay for quality or do maint. That might be true of the type of people who'd hire the local blowhard handyman. But generally trackers are part of better quality systems. Kill a Watt. Problem - You use it for entertainment. Problem lies with end user not the Kill a Watt. I don't own a Kill a Watt, so I don't use one for entertainment or otherwise. When you came out strongly against their use, you had no way of knowing who was going to be using them or for what purpose. The fact is, you make a bad habit of coming out strongly against good recommendations. Until someone tells me the clinical designation for a person who indulges in such contrary behavior, I'll use the layman's term of "lone nitwit". Solar Hot Water. Problem - None Then what *exactly* has prevented a self-professed master fabricator, and self-titled "*solar* power consultant", from building a solar water heating system for 20 years? Do you really believe that living in a hot and sunny place, yet getting a mere 5% of your energy from the sun is something to be proud of, and entitles you to preside as Judge Blunder? Reserved for further posting Let me guess, you're toiling away on another of your little "stories"? At 2.5kW per day system installation time, shouldn't you be out doing that instead? One would think that installing $35k systems for $240 would keep you pretty busy. snorf Wayne |
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:10:24 GMT, "daestrom"
wrote: "John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote in message ... Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything. Nor, does George seem to contribute anything other than his definition of 'days of autonomy' and his harping on Wayne about it. George might consider some help since his 'days of autonomy' mantra seems to have taken over his entire existence and pushed out any other helpful contributions. The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it has degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match). The OP might as well just start a new thread to ask any new questions, these two guys will not contribute anything more to the discussion, and most of us recognize the YAWVGM and ignore the thread from here on. You're mostly right, but don't discount the lesson served up by George's setup. It's a perfect example of tunnel-vision design, decreased utility, and how to spend less in the beginning, but more in the long run. For those considering hiring an installer, it also demonstrates the importance of seeking out one with well-rounded experience, as opposed to someone with what I call "contractor's" disease. That's where a tradesman can't see the forest for the trees, and continues to make the same assumptions and mistakes for an entire career. Wayne |
I am onboard totally with you on this one. Must be the Great Lakes
environment...LOL Hot huh? "daestrom" wrote in message ... "John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote in message ... Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything. Nor, does George seem to contribute anything other than his definition of 'days of autonomy' and his harping on Wayne about it. George might consider some help since his 'days of autonomy' mantra seems to have taken over his entire existence and pushed out any other helpful contributions. The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it has degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match). The OP might as well just start a new thread to ask any new questions, these two guys will not contribute anything more to the discussion, and most of us recognize the YAWVGM and ignore the thread from here on. Moving on..... daestrom |
You must live in a tiny town if they sent out an Engineer for that...LOL
Did he have ditch digging caluses on his hands too? Nice going. Never give up when you know you are right. You would never get a rebate here for high voltage. power delivered is power billed. "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ... In article , lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net" wrote: Robert Bonomi wrote: [[.. munch ..]] It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got better. [[.. munch ..]] Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation. 125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases. Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging transformer. Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased, the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end. The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang (voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact. At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station. the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps. *OUCH*. Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big* hospital, And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks. A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly and somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a week-day. *THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.) For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare. :) They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening". That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'. I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within about 2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit (readable to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen other locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter / data- logger. :) They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!" (He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my phone, called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up. Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later, my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down. I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high' voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid. |
John P Bengi wrote:
You must live in a tiny town if they sent out an Engineer for that...LOL Did he have ditch digging caluses on his hands too? Nice going. Never give up when you know you are right. You would never get a rebate here for high voltage. power delivered is power billed. "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ... In article , lionslair at consolidated dot net "lionslair at consolidated dot net" wrote: Robert Bonomi wrote: [[.. munch ..]] It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got better. [[.. munch ..]] Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation. 125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases. Our house in the mountains of No. Ca. was a few miles from a swinging transformer. Under low load, the transformer was at one voltage, as the current increased, the transformer switched in another set of windings up until it hit an end. The swinging transformer had massive make-before-break contacts that always rang (voltage hits) as it moved. I called the power company when it started hitting my lines heavy (I was logging them on my APC's) and they found a burnt contact. At one point I lived "across the parking lot" from the local sub-station. the feed came out of the substation, down *one* pole, with the transformer and the drop to the 6 apartment building I was living in. the building was turn-of-the-century construction, with -- I think -- still original wiring. I could get an *nine* volt drop at the wall, by kicking on one of my pieces of electronic test gear -- one that drew about 8 amps. *OUCH*. Anyway, I'm across the street from a school, 2 blocks from a *big* hospital, And had several other sizable 'commercial' users within a few blocks. A line-voltage monitor showed as high as 133V in early AM, with it slowly and somewhat erratically falling to about 127V by somewhere after 9AM on a week-day. *THAT* led to a call/complaint to the electric company, Demanding that they get the voltage down to the 'proper' level. (That degree of excess voltage _is_ hard on equipment, and other things. Reduces the effective life of incandescent bulbs by about _half_, in fact.) For some reason, customer service didn't want to believe me -- I guess complaints about "too much power" are *really* rare. :) They suggested that what I was reporting "couldn't be happening". That whatever I was using to read the voltage must be 'in error'. I pointed out that I had _five_ separate pieces of test equipment, by five different manufacturers, that were all telling the _same_ story, within about 2V (analog readout uncertainty on some of the meters). That all were industrial- and/or lab-grade gear. That the precision-reading unit (readable to 1/4v or finer) had been used for 'reference checks' at half-a-dozen other locations around the city, and registered 118.5 - 121.5 at *every* other location. (About the only thing I didn't have was a _recording_ meter / data- logger. :) They _grudgingly_ agreed to send an engineer out to see me. He took one look at my 'bench', and said "Hell, you've got better equipment there than _I_ do." Then, looked at my readings and said "that's not right!" (He didn't even bother to cross-check with his own gear.) Borrowed my phone, called in to the office, and ordered an _immediate_ roll of a maintenance team to the substation, and goes outside to wait for the crew to show up. Which they did, in less than 15 minutes. Less than half an hour later, my instrumentation is showing a "respectable" 117V. rising all the way to 123V when the rest of the neighborhood shut down. I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high' voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid. As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes a power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down? I would give my left nut to have a little more voltage. Switch mode power supplies love a slightly higher voltage and often run cooler when they are run at max voltage. |
Energy meters spin by the combination of current and voltage creating torque
on the non-ferrous disc as it tries to get out of the magnetic AC fluxes created at 90 degrees to each other. On resistive devices and most devices the current and power goes up as the voltage increases. You bulb will be brighter etc.. On synchronous devices like AC motor compressors and furnace fans etc. the speed is locked to the power line frequency. 60Hzx 2 changes x 60 sec/min / #poles in the motor will pas the electromagnetic pole that creates the torque and you typically get 1800 RPM. This is fairly constant, which means the work that it puts out is constant also (constant workload) When you lower the voltage to the motor now is has to draw more current to do the same work and can eventually burn out by overheating from the high current. BTW: If you have a disc or equivalent in your Electric Meter you can determine the load of your house going through the meter at any given time by clocking it with a stopwatch. Look at you meter and observe the disc. You should notice a little black mark passing on the edge of the disc every revolution. Time a couple of these revolutions and mark the time (in seconds) down. I usually do about 60 seconds worth. There also may be fractional marks if your meter is moving really slow and don't have an hour to wait (exag) Also notice on the front of the nameplate of your meter there is a "disc constant" noted as kH. This is the amount of energy (in watthours) that the meter has measured each revolution of the disc. It will probably read something like kH 7.2 or kH 12. This is the part that is tightly regulated for accuracy. Now apply it to this formula: revs x kH x time(secs) / 3600. sec per hour This will give you your home load in watts (power). This technique can be useful to check the power of appliances to see where you hard earned energy dollars are going each month by shutting off all the breakers except one and looking for the energy pigs. If you have a solid state kilowatthour meter on your house there will be a blinking LED or simulated disc in LCD but the same thing will apply. Look for a constant for the "equivalent disc revs" or LED kH. Best of luck. "Tim Thomson" wrote in message ... As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes a power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down? I would give my left nut to have a little more voltage. Switch mode power supplies love a slightly higher voltage and often run cooler when they are run at max voltage. |
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:10:57 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote: Cliff expostulated: | On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | || Maytag | | My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's | no better than anyone else's. Their top end (like their competitors' top end) products /are/ highly priced. In at least Maytag's case the top end products are, in fact, as good as they can make 'em. The R&D guys actually talk to the production assemblers, pay attention to what they say, and make product changes on the basis of their suggestions. More usually (elsewhere) an assembly person has to tell a foreman who might or might not tell a supervisor - and so on up the ladder until there's an information "bridge" back down the chain to the R&D guys. None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar. For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just how to make it cheaper. -- Cliff |
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:47:34 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote: Whirlpool I once met their engineer that suggested replacing all those custom hoses, fittings, pumps, etc. on their washing machine models with a single set of standard ones. I gather that they did it. To this day I wonder how they got the contract for the toilet(s) on the International Space Station. BTW, They used to use ComputerVision IIRC. -- Cliff |
Cliff (in ) said:
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 19:10:57 -0500, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | || Cliff expostulated: || ||| On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey" ||| wrote: ||| |||| Maytag ||| ||| My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's ||| no better than anyone else's. || || Their top end (like their competitors' top end) products /are/ || highly priced. In at least Maytag's case the top end products are, || in fact, as good as they can make 'em. The R&D guys actually talk || to the production assemblers, pay attention to what they say, and || make product changes on the basis of their suggestions. More || usually (elsewhere) an assembly person has to tell a foreman who || might or might not tell a supervisor - and so on up the ladder || until there's an information "bridge" back down the chain to the || R&D guys. | | None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the | field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar. | For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just | how to make it cheaper. Of course. Did the paragraphs following the one you quoted make it to your server? If not: The Maytag link to the customer call center is disconcertingly direct. When I first arrived I had a "recycled" R&D phone number and got calls from CS call center operators demanding that problems be fixed *RIGHT NOW!* That I wasn't the person they thought they were calling didn't seem to make any difference - nor did the fact that I wasn't even a Maytag employee. One gal told me that didn't matter and that I'd better get up off my butt and FIND OUT who should be fixing this problem and make 'em aware of it and have them get back to her posthaste. Maytag could never get away with showing a commercial of that scene (can't admit right out loud in front of God and everybody that someone's had a problem with our product!); but after I came out of shock I decided it was actually pretty impressive. Again, it's noteworthy that in all of these "hot" calls the communication was between "indians". -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
Cliff (in ) said:
| On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:47:34 -0500, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | || Whirlpool | | I once met their engineer that suggested replacing | all those custom hoses, fittings, pumps, etc. on their | washing machine models with a single set of standard | ones. I gather that they did it. Seems like a "no-brainer to me" - though the no-brainer solutions are sometimes the most difficult to get approved. One of the other no-brainers (for CPU-controlled washers) should be to allow either hose to connect to hot and the other to the cold water supply. The controllers monitor both temperatures and control the flow valves independently anyway... | To this day I wonder how they got the contract for | the toilet(s) on the International Space Station. Interesting - I wasn't aware they'd done that. | BTW, They used to use ComputerVision IIRC. Ok. My primary software tools were gcc, Visual C, and Excel (in order of high to low quality) - No CAD/CAM needed for what I was doing. I did notice that the mechanical engineering types had some pretty nifty packages for designing gears 'n' stuff, though. One of the guys took time to teach me a bit about making gear trains quiet - and that was so fascinating I skipped lunch. (I suppose that makes both he and I hopeless geeks :-) -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:28 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote: | None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the | field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar. | For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just | how to make it cheaper. Of course. Did the paragraphs following the one you quoted make it to your server? If not: They made it but did not seem to be on that issue. Perhaps you had to be there? -- Cliff |
Cliff (in ) said:
| On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 14:19:28 -0500, "Morris Dovey" | wrote: | ||| None of that would give any hint of what actually failed in the ||| field and flooded out the end customer or anything similar. ||| For that you'd need to know what went wrong, not just ||| how to make it cheaper. || || Of course. Did the paragraphs following the one you quoted make it || to your server? If not: | | They made it but did not seem to be on that issue. | Perhaps you had to be there? Oops. Sorry, I may have assumed too much. Customer service call center operators take calls from customers (and sometimes from dealers) when there's either a problem or a how-to issue. Maytag's call center had several hundred people and these operators seemed to have been more knowledgable than I'd expected, given the number of products and models supported. Cost seemed to be a secondary consideration to these people. Their mission (/their/ mission if not the corporation's) was to resolve any issues to the satisfaction of the customer. If/when they thought the issue was a consequence of design, even if the use was unusual, they weren't bashful about letting the R&D group know about it. I think part of their motivation was "Golden Rule" and part of it was workload reduction (fewer future service calls for the same problem). Although I didn't have a lot of contact with CS, I'm aware that even when the problem was something the customer had done wrong (there actually /are/ people who'll put a half box of detergent in with a single load of clothes!) they tried to make a follow-up call sometime /after/ problem resolution to verify satisfaction. CS isn't a cost reducing function. More usually it adds cost - since they provide the information leading to engineering changes for released products. I'm not aware of any instance where their input ever led to making the product cheaper. I suppose it could happen, but I didn't see it. -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html |
On Sun, 26 Jun 2005 11:31:04 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: "daestrom" wrote in message . .. The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but it has degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-george-match). I am onboard totally with you on this one. Must be the Great Lakes environment...LOL Hot huh? What the heck are you talkin' about Gymmy Bob? I count 12 posts from you so far in this thread. 10 are your usual worthless jackass comments, and none contain so much as a hint of off-grid workshop experience. Which is hardly surprising, given that somebody who posts 24-7 hasn't any need for a workshop on or off grid. George has dropped 14 steaming loads so far, with the only off-grid workshop connection being his resentment of mine. No surprise there either. My posts total 31, half dead on topic (which is sometimes a bit like work), the others being my reward - getting to skewer both the man of a thousand IDs, and the Blunder From Down Under. Although frankly, the two of you are making it so easy, you're taking most of the fun out of it. Wayne |
In article ,
John P Bengi JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: You must live in a tiny town if they sent out an Engineer for that...LOL depends on how you qualify it. biggest town in the state. pop. circa 250K Did he have ditch digging caluses on his hands too? *snicker* Nice going. Never give up when you know you are right. You would never get a rebate here for high voltage. power delivered is power billed. It was _unexpected_. I hadn't asked for it. It wasn't big bucks either. 30+ years ago, now, so I don't have any precise recollection of amount -- but I'm pretty sure it was under $20. An apartment, in summertime -- without A/C -- and with a gas stove, doesn't use a lot of power. |
In article ,
Tim Thomson wrote: As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes a power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down? Are you familiar with "Ohm's Law"? If the _resistance_ is a fixed value, guess what happens to the current (amps) when the voltage goes up. |
In article ,
Tim Thomson wrote: Robert Bonomi wrote: [[.. munch ..]] I even got a credit on my bill -- where they went back an re-figured what the kilowatt-hours _should_ have been if they had not been delivering 'too high' voltage. I'd only lived there a few months, but they back-credited to the date I moved in. It was about 15% of everything I'd paid. I call bull**** on the credit! As if.............. I was there. You weren't. Your claim is bullsh*t. Note: I didn't even _ask_ for that credit. They did it all by themselves. Note: this was more than 30 years ago. And in a territory with a strong and active regulatory agency. And a state Attorney General that *really* hated that particular utility company -- they had previously *sued* him, requesting that the court grant order him to 'cease and desist harassment', no less. |
Motor based appliances are not fixed resistances. As the voltage goes down
the current goes up to achieve the same horsepower and the same RPM "Robert Bonomi" wrote in message ... In article , Tim Thomson wrote: As a matter of fact would his metor not run less with some things like his fridge, vacuum, hair dryer, washing machine, dish washer, etc. What makes a power metor spin? If voltage goes up does the amp draw go down? Are you familiar with "Ohm's Law"? If the _resistance_ is a fixed value, guess what happens to the current (amps) when the voltage goes up. |
"The subject is 'workshop in an alternate homepower environment', but
it has degenerated to YAWVGM (yet-another-wayne-versus-geor=ADge-match). ..." I am glad that someone remembers....thanks to all those who contributed positively to this thread so far. If you have more to contribute on subject, please feel free to offer it. Thanks in advance, TMT |
On 26 Jun 2005 19:48:32 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote: If you have more to contribute on subject, please feel free to offer it. Thanks in advance, TMT Here's a sample day's work (yesterday's) in an off-grid workshop. The project was building the last 2 of 5 scissor trusses for a friend's aircraft hangar. All material was scrap - chords of 2" and 1.5" schedule 40 pipe. Long braces from T posts, shorter ones from 5/8" sucker rod. Most of the material was cut a few days ago. I wore out 3 chop saw blades (medium quality ones) which should give you an idea of run time. The trusses are 40' wide, but built in halves. Each half took about 30 minutes to lay out and prep, including about 15 minutes use of a 4" side grinder. Then 26 welds per side, flip, another 26 welds. Layout, prep, and welding - about one hour total per half, with a long break between each one to cool off. I built 4 halves, about 100 minutes welding for the day. I didn't check the current draw, but the machine was set at 280 inches per second, 18 Volts, with .035" solid wire. Perhaps 5kW input. Charging rate was medium, there was good sun, but almost no wind, which was nice because I could leave the shop doors open. When I quit for the day, my wife commented that battery state of charge had dropped 6 Amp hours, and that she'd used the AC in the office for a couple of hours. On this project, like most others here, there wasn't any penalty for being off-grid, which is way cool IMO. Wayne |
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