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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:38:32 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 Speaking of neanderthal, boy..if it was so important to you..how come you are not using Linux? Thats the bleeding edge today. You are using old paleolithic tech when using Outleak Exploder. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
Cliff wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing wrote: The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a multitude of reasons Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to. You need the context but not the rest. I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context.. John |
John P Bengi wrote:
I have noticed a few things about this. 1) I tried Agent for a month or so and it feels like running a MSDos programme, primitive and non-intuitive. I am not willing to pay for this functionality. OE is free without hacking. 2) The people that seem to always have problems with threading or posting readability are almost always Agent users. For posting binaries it is a much better machine, I am sure. 3) I have never had a virus scanner installed on my system in the 20 odd years I have been using MS op-systems. I have used a virus scanner the odd time but never required a full time scanner and the targetabilty is only because the results could be seen with such a popular browser. Once Agent becames more popular it will become a target also. 4) no browser I have ever heard of or seen support bottom posting. They all separate the p[osted text from the posted header. Threading browsers have made the top down posting style obsolete in the 80s. Who ever puts their attachments of previous posts before their text. Do you do this in an email? The previous posts are all in the thread and available to anybody wanted to review the previous posts. The arguments for bottom posting are all moot. Other than that, thanx for your polite information. Microsoft stuff is pretty functional, and it's basically alright once you get it configured, but the fact remains that it's the stuff that's most often assaulted, it's often buggy and MS is darn slow at dealing with problems. Consider XP and the 'service packs', strange way to do things.. Try Mozilla's Thunderbird, it's what I use. I really don't know of anything bad to say about it, it works and it works well. The Mozilla folks seem determined to resolve issues quickly, I feel that they're doing a much better job of it than MS. Don't get me wrong, MS did a great service for the people by putting Windows out, they helped to make the internet what it is just by offering a fairly simple and working OS that we non computer-geeks can use. MS set the standard that others are now exceeding and I can see little reason for not using that which exceeds. Give it a try, you might like it. Mozilla Firefox is a very good browser too, try 'em both. John |
snip
A visit to Newton might provide some insights. Spending a bit of time inside Maytag's headquarters, R&D facility, and manufacturing areas might leave you wondering why it's taken so long for this to happen. snip An insightful comment and one I missed the first time I read your response. It would be interesting to know how much in deductions the corporation took on their tax returns over the last 5 or 10 years for market research and product R&D. Article in Wed. June 22 WSJ discusses shift in consumer priorities for major appliances from stolid dependability to flash and glitz, which may help explain why the "dependability people" are now in deep do-do. On the other hand, flash and glitz are only skin deep, and how much can it cost and how long can it take to have a design studio "re-skin" a washer or drier, and how much can it cost to shoot metal flake paint in place of white? As an aside, the American people deserve what they get on this one…. In response to another reply, the questions about the likely outcomes for senior management were rhetorical, although your detailed answers were insightful. This helps explain the "shortage" of engineers and the rapidly declining number of engineering students. Even the "nerdest" engineer can look up/around and see that while they (and the rest of the "product" people) are taking it in the shorts big time, management and finance are riding off with full boodle bags. While both groups will have some time off, for the product people it will be a mad scramble for another job so they can keep the house and the car, while the management and finance people are resting in Cancun. Do you happen to know if the Maytag pension plans are fully funded, or is this another "debt bomb" that will be lobbed into the PBGC? How about medical care for current retirees? Off Maytag and onto the taxpayers through Medicare? We need something more than biased B-school case studies. What do you think of an economic/financial equivalent to the NTSB that would investigate major corporate "crash and burn" cases? These could well be a job for Dr. Kavorikan and not a "crash-cart" and life-support situation. In the aggregate the major loss/damage caused by not only Maytag, but also Enron, Tyco, Ford, EMC, Delta, American, etc., etc., is a total loss of confidence in the competence and motives of management by not only their employees, but the majority of stockholders and the American people. |
As a followon to another post I just made, see WSJ article Wed
June 22 on this. I ask the same question about Whirlpool that I asked about Maytag. How much did they claim on their tax returns for market research and product R&D over the last 5 to 10 years? It is clear they did not do any. The apparent choices are "management malpractice," or "management malpractace" and tax fraud. Any chance to "claw back" some of the management bonuses and/or "differed compensation"? On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 03:15:59 -0400, Cliff wrote: snip Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the jobs and local taxes revenue they represent. IIRC Whirlpool is already in big trouble. |
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:50:58 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote: Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the jobs and local taxes revenue they represent. I'll point out the GE does not run unprofitable divisoins for a great length of time and has been in the home appliance business for a LONG time as such things go. http://www.geappliances.com/ Two decades ago they were a leader in the use of 3D CAD/CAM systems at their Appliance Park facility near Louisville, KY. Probably the first 3D sheetmetal software for 3D CAD/CAM came out of their efforts ... -- Cliff |
"Gunner" wrote in message
Speaking of neanderthal, boy..if it was so important to you..how come you are not using Linux? Thats the bleeding edge today. Windows at home (my preference), Mandrake Linux where I work. (their preference). I'm sure I own a half dozen products that are what I'd consider to be superior to what you or someone else owns. That doesn't mean I'm going to spend my time criticising you for what you use by choice. It ****es me off when idiots like you attempt to validate your existence for criticising me for using what I want. And that's EXACTLY what you're doing right now with your response above. Fine, there's a growing population that loathes Microsoft and they have every right to voice their disapproval. But when people who hate Microsoft start letting their criticism drift towards users who use MS products by choice, then I'm going to respond. Got it? |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:57 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and raised in San Diego. Yes, I know, and we're grateful that you moved. If only Mars would offer the type of retraining that you seem so fond of. A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial Steel" I don't see why not. There are plenty of ticket holders out there who can't earn a decent living at their trade. Some of them can't do any better than scabbing together rusty crap for cheap customers, and then complaining about the experience on Usenet. Sound familiar? My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them. So a "design" is only required for homes? But I remember you writing about doing laundry and vacuuming on generator power, concurrent with shop use. Perhaps that's a wireless connection... My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw. Hmm... farther along in your post you mention 5 hours per month welding, accounting for 10 liters per fortnight. Let's allow 3 hours per week for laundry alone, say an addtional 12 liters per fortnight. No need to calculate anything beyond that, as your tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw are already running on magic bean fumes. Perhaps I was too charitable using your own numbers to tally 15 tons of fuel hauling so far. Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what? The "what" is that 1. while giving new meaning to the definition of spartan, and claiming to be a professional, you've spent more and accomplished less than many amateurs, and 2. - you insist on criticizing those who've done better, particularly if they point out your blunders. So, yes I can account for my entire energy use. Is this important? Yes. Why? Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what you are doing. I've met many off-gridders who manage quite well despite not knowing the difference between a Watt and a gallon. They tend to get the idea pretty quickly - batteries dead, must have used too much, and after a while they develop a feel for what they can run. Call it what you like, but lots of them get a much higher proportion of their energy from solar than you do. Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do not have yet is the parbolic system. That's an amazingly lame excuse, although I suppose it's a step in the right direction that you're finally admitting the wisdom of taking advantage of the sun. Duh! But 20 years to do a three-day project? And given your previous comments on how you've "never seen a working tracker", why would you use a parabolic collector? Anyway, let me know when it's finished. I'll get a day pass from the old folks home, and drive down in my Moller Skycar for the dedication ceremony. Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not Wayne's needs or George's needs. Several of the regulars here who you've criticized bitterly have systems that meet their needs. Why is it that meeting one's needs is only a measurement of success in your own case? My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW system on site in two days. Very impressive. I probably spent more time than that running conduit for a 2kW system. Additional days for battery box, venting, inverter mounting, and wire pulling, not to mention trenching, concrete, etc. But equipped with that six pack of corded cordless drills, at your rate the whole job could have been done in 8 tenths of a single day. Man, them drills must be smokin'! As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps five hours a month. To name just a few - to save 1200 hours of generator time and 1200 gallons of fuel, to have the capacity to run all the other loads that are over a few hundred Watts, to demonstrate that as a successful "solar power consultant" you needn't take the same road as broke amateurs... But other than those, no reasons at all. The warning about your advice still stands as valid. You might print out the warning and one of your spreadsheets, and take them along with all your unused cordless drill chargers to the propane supplier, and see how much of a discount they'll give you. Then report back after another 20 years on the economics of "designing" a "solar" home that 95% fuel powered. Wayne |
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 23:11:05 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: I have noticed a few things about this. 1) I tried Agent for a month or so and it feels like running a MSDos programme, primitive and non-intuitive. I am not willing to pay for this functionality. OE is free without hacking. 2) The people that seem to always have problems with threading or posting readability are almost always Agent users. For posting binaries it is a much better machine, I am sure. 3) I have never had a virus scanner installed on my system in the 20 odd years I have been using MS op-systems. I have used a virus scanner the odd time but never required a full time scanner and the targetabilty is only because the results could be seen with such a popular browser. Once Agent becames more popular it will become a target also. 4) no browser I have ever heard of or seen support bottom posting. They all separate the p[osted text from the posted header. Threading browsers have made the top down posting style obsolete in the 80s. Who ever puts their attachments of previous posts before their text. Do you do this in an email? The previous posts are all in the thread and available to anybody wanted to review the previous posts. The arguments for bottom posting are all moot. Not too bright, eh? What NG are you from that you never got educated? -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:47:50 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message Speaking of neanderthal, boy..if it was so important to you..how come you are not using Linux? Thats the bleeding edge today. Windows at home (my preference), Mandrake Linux where I work. (their preference). I'm sure I own a half dozen products that are what I'd consider to be superior to what you or someone else owns. That doesn't mean I'm going to spend my time criticising you for what you use by choice. It ****es me off when idiots like you attempt to validate your existence for criticising me for using what I want. And that's EXACTLY what you're doing right now with your response above. Fine, there's a growing population that loathes Microsoft and they have every right to voice their disapproval. But when people who hate Microsoft start letting their criticism drift towards users who use MS products by choice, then I'm going to respond. Got it? So far, you have shown us: 1. You have a bad attitude 2. You are stupid 3. You dont take critisism well and respond by being an ass. 4.. You have the personal arrogance of a middle eastern Rhaj. The various posters quite nicely covered the Historical and current weaknesses in Outleak Exploder. Weaknesses still being found and exploited by the script kiddies. One should note that the vast majority of internet viruses are targeted AT OE. One should also note that those who spend significant time on Usenet, typically use Agent if they use a MS OS, both because of its ease of use, its relative security and its versitility. Its generally the AOL type, or the occasional poster who hasnt invested the meager amount of time to investigate the various newsreaders to see which best fits their mode of operation. It was you that made the blanket statement that Agent was Junk, was it not? With no citations why, other than you found it unfriendly. Which addresses #2 above btw. Oddly enough..I and most Agent users find it particularly friendly. We also tend to use a seperate email program. Few combination programs do both email and usenet well, without becoming particularly bulky and cumbersome, and prone to secuity issues. I use Eudora for email. Shrug. Ive used most of the others. Btw..this is my 10 yr anniversary of being on the internet. And no..Ive never been an AOL member. For the obvious reasons. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent. What was this about? oh , just the Gymmy Bob / Bengi / pizza Girl / Larry Lixxx troll getting his jollies again ! Thank phuck the Globe does not rely on the types that follow this jerks posts to generate any interest in RE - bunch of dim witted morons, at best!! mutter mutter ......******s! |
When you get a browser that actually supports bottom posting I will join
you. Until then **** off with your trolling. Yes John, do that - **** off! |
When you get a browser that actually supports bottom posting I will join
you. Until then **** off with your trolling. Yes John, do that - **** off! Why? |
When you get a browser that actually supports bottom posting I will join
you. Until then **** off with your trolling. Yes John, do that - **** off! Why? Well John, to put it politely, YOU **** in your own nest! And the rest of us cannot operate with the dag hanging from your arse. Plus the methane is unpalatable/unsusable, as is the Host. |
"Gunner" wrote in message
V their mode of operation. It was you that made the blanket statement that Agent was Junk, was it not? No was NOT. I use agent for downloading binaries. If you're going to play the asshole, at least try to respond with the knowledge that you have your facts straight. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Been looking in the mirror again asshole? Hell, you're too stupid to even follow a thread properly. I damn well know for sure that you're incapable of searching out parts of previous threads or you'd have quoted what you're replying to like any normal person. |
"Gunner" wrote in message
So far, you have shown us: 1. You have a bad attitude 2. You are stupid 3. You dont take critisism well and respond by being an ass. 4.. You have the personal arrogance of a middle eastern Rhaj. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Now I know you're looking in mirror and the person there is talking about you. |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:33 -0400, JohnM wrote:
Cliff wrote: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing wrote: The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a multitude of reasons Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to. You need the context but not the rest. I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context.. John John, I don't think so (but it's possible). Sometimes, with a few others, I only reply to a slight snippet (see jb & Gunner & crew) with a sharp poke G. For most the subject (or a specific subset of it), not the author, is the subject (whoops .. a tautology?) Usually I quote the specific bit I'm responding to (for the proper context). I like SHORT, easy-on-the-reader posts, little forced scrolling to find the context, and brevity, usually. Some of the others like huge essays .... but I find that a few well placed words usually do most of the time. One may also usually assume that the reader recently read the prior full post that the reply is in response to. -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 07:31:43 -0400, JohnM wrote:
Consider XP and the 'service packs', strange way to do things.. I suspect that one day they will do automatic online updates ... and error reports via Email back to MS. -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:50:25 GMT, Gunner
wrote: So far, you have shown us: 1. You have a bad attitude 2. You are stupid 3. You dont take critisism well and respond by being an ass. 4.. You have the personal arrogance of a middle eastern Rhaj. Found a long lost relative, eh? Congratulations !!! -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 15:50:25 GMT, Gunner
wrote: Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. It's always fun to watch him arguing with himself G. -- Cliff |
"Cliff" wrote in message
I suspect that one day they will do automatic online updates ... and error reports via Email back to MS. You can already configure it to update automatically. Most people don't like that including myself. It's tantamount to turning almost complete control of your computer over to someone else. (or some company). I equate that to pre-authorized chequing which I monitor very closely. For the most part, it works out ok, but for the times when your account is debited for something without your permission. And then comes the time when you've terminated all purchases from a company, but they continue to debit your account. |
Upscale wrote: I equate that to pre-authorized chequing which I monitor very closely. For the most part, it works out ok, but for the times when your account is debited for something without your permission. And then comes the time when you've terminated all purchases from a company, but they continue to debit your account. Had one of those, once. They billed and refused to credit 14 days after I closed it down, and told me it "might" happen again. I closed the account an hour later and threatened to sue them for the payment. I didn't get the money back, but they sure as hell didn't get anything else from me, nor will they ever. |
M II strikes again!
"Wall" wrote in message news:1119542417.802a936af79f12dbd55a5a3c01453788@t eranews... On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent. What was this about? oh , just the Gymmy Bob / Bengi / pizza Girl / Larry Lixxx troll getting his jollies again ! Thank phuck the Globe does not rely on the types that follow this jerks posts to generate any interest in RE - bunch of dim witted morons, at best!! mutter mutter ......******s! |
F. George McDuffee expostulated:
| It would be interesting to know how much in deductions the | corporation took on their tax returns over the last 5 or 10 years | for market research and product R&D. Article in Wed. June 22 WSJ | discusses shift in consumer priorities for major appliances from | stolid dependability to flash and glitz, which may help explain | why the "dependability people" are now in deep do-do. It's probably worthwhile to take note of the fact that I'm not a "Maytag Expert" and that I can't provide very much more than firsthand observations (that may or may not be safe to use as the basis for generalizations) and inexpert opinion - garnered while working as a software consultant with their R&D group. Since all of the products under development of which I had knowledge have been announced and/or shipped, I'm free to speak openly. On the R&D side, Maytag has extraordinarily competent engineers and researchers who're as enthusiastic and eager as any I've ever seen elsewhere. There aren't many of them - and they seemed much under-appreciated by their management. My thought was (and remains) that any of Maytag's competitors could ruin the firm simply by offering this one engineering group an industry competive wage and management guaranteed to provide genuine appreciation of past and future accomplishments. With careful research, a competitor could simultaneously put Maytag's future in grave jeopardy and greatly enhance their own prospects for as little as $500K/year. In my mind, for a Fortune 300 company this is tantamount to gross negligence on the part of management. | On the other hand, flash and glitz are only skin deep, and how | much can it cost and how long can it take to have a design studio | "re-skin" a washer or drier, and how much can it cost to shoot | metal flake paint in place of white? As an aside, the American | people deserve what they get on this one.. Flash and glitz /are/ cheap and easy. Solid dependability and quality of function are more difficult and generally expensive to achieve - no surprises here. My task as a consultant was to provide a technical solution that was expected to drasticly reduce that expense. I provided the requested solution (which incorporated solutions to the usual variety of unanticipated side issues) and to the best of my knowlege, that package was shelved because it required a degree of interdepartmental cooperation/communication that too many of the first-line development managers weren't prepared to exercise. (Bummer!) A related issue had to do with more than healthy managerial resistance to technology more advanced than a motor-driven cycle controller - even after their horizontal-axis (front loading) Neptune washer had provided proof positive that micros are here to stay! I was by definition a "short timer" and that attitude was grindingly frustrating to me. I don't want to think about how frustrating it has to be for the R&D folks who're intending to stay with Maytag for the long haul... | In response to another reply, the questions about the likely | outcomes for senior management were rhetorical, although your | detailed answers were insightful. This helps explain the | "shortage" of engineers and the rapidly declining number of | engineering students. Even the "nerdest" engineer can look | up/around and see that while they (and the rest of the "product" | people) are taking it in the shorts big time, management and | finance are riding off with full boodle bags. While both groups | will have some time off, for the product people it will be a mad | scramble for another job so they can keep the house and the car, | while the management and finance people are resting in Cancun. | | Do you happen to know if the Maytag pension plans are fully | funded, or is this another "debt bomb" that will be lobbed into | the PBGC? How about medical care for current retirees? Off | Maytag and onto the taxpayers through Medicare? I don't know. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to anything unrelated to R&D and/or some specific product development. I sat through (too many) meetings and took notice of what was being said about the technology and politics involved with getting the vertical-axis (top loading) Neptune product working and out the door - and the implementation of a methodology to streamline development of all future cycle-based "whiteware". | We need something more than biased B-school case studies. What do | you think of an economic/financial equivalent to the NTSB that | would investigate major corporate "crash and burn" cases? These | could well be a job for Dr. Kavorikan and not a "crash-cart" and | life-support situation. | | In the aggregate the major loss/damage caused by not only Maytag, | but also Enron, Tyco, Ford, EMC, Delta, American, etc., etc., is | a total loss of confidence in the competence and motives of | management by not only their employees, but the majority of | stockholders and the American people. I'd encourage you to make an at least internal distinction between failures resulting from fundamental dishonesty with intent to defraud - and failures resulting from stupidity, lack of due diligence, etc. on the part of fundamentally well-intentioned people. If I were to choose a single cause for Maytag's failure to thrive (which would be a huge over-simplification), that cause would be the selection of a succession of CEO's who lacked the wisdom to define success and to lead their people in that direction. Your summary is basically true; but would you really expect that a government agency /could/ do more than throw good money after bad in these cases? If so, you're far more optimistic than I'd dare to be. One final comment. One of my first questions after starting work at Maytag (and I did ask every single person I worked with) was: "What does it take to make dirty clothes clean?". What I was after were things like how much water per pound of clothes during wash and rinse, how much agitation, how much cleaning agent, etc. with some kind of mathematical relationships and some numbers. No one knew! I was (and still am) dumbfounded that no one at Maytag had ever made a serious effort to define in engineering terms what it takes to make clothes clean. Think about the implications of that tidbit as you ponder business failure causes... -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/ |
Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:33 -0400, JohnM wrote: Cliff wrote: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing wrote: The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a multitude of reasons Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to. You need the context but not the rest. I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context.. John John, I don't think so (but it's possible). Sometimes, with a few others, I only reply to a slight snippet (see jb & Gunner & crew) with a sharp poke G. You go back and look at the thread where we disagreed over the atomic bombing of the Japanese cities and you'll see where I accused you of cutting what I said, resulting in an altered context. For most the subject (or a specific subset of it), not the author, is the subject (whoops .. a tautology?) Usually I quote the specific bit I'm responding to (for the proper context). I like SHORT, easy-on-the-reader posts, little forced scrolling to find the context, and brevity, usually. Some of the others like huge essays .... but I find that a few well placed words usually do most of the time. I find your few, well placed words to often sound like you haven't thought of anything constructive. "Winger!, WMD's!", etc. Maybe the readers you prefer need it kept simple? One may also usually assume that the reader recently read the prior full post that the reply is in response to. I don't believe that to be a safe assumption. You go through a thread on a day and you see the posts between then and the last time you looked. There may be responses to something you read three days ago, twenty lines up the thread. There's usually a middle ground between giving enough information about what you're responding to that you're showing consideration for your readers and cutting enough to not waste people's time. Myself, I prefer to err on the side of too much information. John |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:01:24 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message V their mode of operation. It was you that made the blanket statement that Agent was Junk, was it not? No was NOT. I use agent for downloading binaries. If you're going to play the asshole, at least try to respond with the knowledge that you have your facts straight. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Been looking in the mirror again asshole? Hell, you're too stupid to even follow a thread properly. I damn well know for sure that you're incapable of searching out parts of previous threads or you'd have quoted what you're replying to like any normal person. Bye ****wit. plink Gunner "Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules. Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner |
"Gunner" wrote in message
Bye ****wit. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Funny, you already said goodbye one and you've doing it again. Must be that low memory retention you have. Either that or you just don't know how to end an argument. |
wmbjk wrote: On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:57 +1000, George Ghio wrote: You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and raised in San Diego. Yes, I know, and we're grateful that you moved. If only Mars would offer the type of retraining that you seem so fond of. IF, as you say you know then you have told another lie when you claimed I was an aussi. A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial Steel" I don't see why not. There are plenty of ticket holders out there who can't earn a decent living at their trade. Some of them can't do any better than scabbing together rusty crap for cheap customers, and then complaining about the experience on Usenet. Sound familiar? So you have no ticket. But then there is no ticket for glue guns is there? My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no connection between them. So a "design" is only required for homes? But I remember you writing about doing laundry and vacuuming on generator power, concurrent with shop use. Perhaps that's a wireless connection... My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw. Hmm... farther along in your post you mention 5 hours per month welding, accounting for 10 liters per fortnight. Let's allow 3 hours per week for laundry alone, say an addtional 12 liters per fortnight. No need to calculate anything beyond that, as your tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw are already running on magic bean fumes. Perhaps I was too charitable using your own numbers to tally 15 tons of fuel hauling so far. Ah, your lack of numbers shines through again, can you tie your own shoe laces? Walk and chew gum at the same time? Let's allow 1 hour for the laundry per week. Something less than a litre Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what? The "what" is that 1. while giving new meaning to the definition of spartan, and claiming to be a professional, you've spent more and accomplished less than many amateurs, and 2. - you insist on criticizing those who've done better, particularly if they point out your blunders. Spartan? Hardly. And if you mean done "better" as in microwave, dishwasher, bread machine, widescreen TV etc. Then the only thing you have done better than me is to employ a dozen more Chinese than me. You are a born consumer. So, yes I can account for my entire energy use. Is this important? Yes. Why? Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what you are doing. I've met many off-gridders who manage quite well despite not knowing the difference between a Watt and a gallon. They tend to get the idea pretty quickly - batteries dead, must have used too much, and after a while they develop a feel for what they can run. Call it what you like, but lots of them get a much higher proportion of their energy from solar than you do. Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do not have yet is the parbolic system. That's an amazingly lame excuse, although I suppose it's a step in the right direction that you're finally admitting the wisdom of taking advantage of the sun. Duh! But 20 years to do a three-day project? And given your previous comments on how you've "never seen a working tracker", why would you use a parabolic collector? Anyway, let me know when it's finished. I'll get a day pass from the old folks home, and drive down in my Moller Skycar for the dedication ceremony. What an imagination. Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not Wayne's needs or George's needs. Several of the regulars here who you've criticized bitterly have systems that meet their needs. Why is it that meeting one's needs is only a measurement of success in your own case? No Wayne, the point is not that your system works but that you have no idea why or how. I too know lots of people who have built systems without knowing what they were doing. Their advice is as worthless as yours when it comes to design. For the same reasons. My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW system on site in two days. Very impressive. I probably spent more time than that running conduit for a 2kW system. Additional days for battery box, venting, inverter mounting, and wire pulling, not to mention trenching, concrete, etc. But equipped with that six pack of corded cordless drills, at your rate the whole job could have been done in 8 tenths of a single day. Man, them drills must be smokin'! My point exactly, you couldn't organise a fart on a bean farm. Which explains how you built your house. Just hire a swag of contractors then claim to have done it yourself. As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps five hours a month. To name just a few - to save 1200 hours of generator time and 1200 gallons of fuel, to have the capacity to run all the other loads that are over a few hundred Watts, to demonstrate that as a successful "solar power consultant" you needn't take the same road as broke amateurs... But other than those, no reasons at all. Why do you try to tout lifestyle as design? While the two go together they are not the same thing. I don't give a two hoots about your lifestyle but I do think it's a hoot that you can't define two days autonomy The warning about your advice still stands as valid. You might print out the warning and one of your spreadsheets, and take them along with all your unused cordless drill chargers to the propane supplier, and see how much of a discount they'll give you. Then report back after another 20 years on the economics of "designing" a "solar" home that 95% fuel powered. Funny thing, I don't own a single cordless drill charger. Last year at the Bedigo swap I found a nice cordless drill, the full kit. The guy wanted $15, I offered ten, he said ok, so I put the drill in my bag. As I started to leave he said, pointing at the case with the battery and charger, "Don't you want the rest of it?" I said "Why" and left. LIFESTYLE. You don't have a clue. My lifestyle is great. You think your lifestyle is great. The difference is that I know how my system works, I know what goes in and what comes out. I know all my energy use, you can't even work out a piddling two days autonomy. With or without the undecided reduced load. Why should anyone in their right mind take advice from you? The warning stands as valid. |
Oh Yeah
Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. |
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:11:42 +1000, George Ghio
wrote: Oh Yeah Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was better, or worse, than solar for hot water. Smart folks already know that in a climate like yours, using the sun to heat water is a no-brainer. For the less knowledgeable, the concept will jump up and bite them the first time they run water from a garden hose that's been laying in the sun. For the very few who still don't get it, the alternative of hauling fuel should eventually drive the point into the thickest of skulls. That you're working on a solar water heating system demonstrates that the light bulb finally came on, although I'd bet that you'll never admit that solar water heating should have been part of your original "design". It's been five days since you barged into this thread with nothing more than gratuitous insults to offer. That's about how long I spent building and tweaking a complete solar water heating system including a hand-made storage tank. So rather than wasting more time defending your own helplessness with an ever bitter blizzard of exaggerations, why not get to work on finishing that water heating system instead, and then report on the results? You could be saving money, and writing about something useful in a matter of days, which would improve your rep, and be better for the group. Wayne |
Fantastic analysis and insight. Depressing though.
While working on my doctorate I took several HRD/HRM classes which were mainly case studies. I was astounded by the number of firms with management that had to hire consultants to find out what it was they were producing, how they were producing it, what workers they had, who they were producing it for, and most critical, how it worked. In several of the cases that were about 10-15 years apart, the general descriptions of the firms were very similar. Some checking indicates that these indeed were the same companies with the same questions. FWIW, these companies are again in the news, teetering on bankruptcy. You may be right on a "corporate accident investigation board." While the NTSB does an exemplary job of in-depth analysis or major accidents, their efforts are too often short-circuited by the standard "pilot error" explication [if the pilots died] by the FAA, and then ignored. I am sure the same thing would occur with the SEC. We won't bother to mention the FDA. Good luck on your consulting. =================================== On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey" wrote: F. George McDuffee expostulated: | It would be interesting to know how much in deductions the | corporation took on their tax returns over the last 5 or 10 years | for market research and product R&D. Article in Wed. June 22 WSJ | discusses shift in consumer priorities for major appliances from | stolid dependability to flash and glitz, which may help explain | why the "dependability people" are now in deep do-do. It's probably worthwhile to take note of the fact that I'm not a "Maytag Expert" and that I can't provide very much more than firsthand observations (that may or may not be safe to use as the basis for generalizations) and inexpert opinion - garnered while working as a software consultant with their R&D group. Since all of the products under development of which I had knowledge have been announced and/or shipped, I'm free to speak openly. On the R&D side, Maytag has extraordinarily competent engineers and researchers who're as enthusiastic and eager as any I've ever seen elsewhere. There aren't many of them - and they seemed much under-appreciated by their management. My thought was (and remains) that any of Maytag's competitors could ruin the firm simply by offering this one engineering group an industry competive wage and management guaranteed to provide genuine appreciation of past and future accomplishments. With careful research, a competitor could simultaneously put Maytag's future in grave jeopardy and greatly enhance their own prospects for as little as $500K/year. In my mind, for a Fortune 300 company this is tantamount to gross negligence on the part of management. | On the other hand, flash and glitz are only skin deep, and how | much can it cost and how long can it take to have a design studio | "re-skin" a washer or drier, and how much can it cost to shoot | metal flake paint in place of white? As an aside, the American | people deserve what they get on this one.. Flash and glitz /are/ cheap and easy. Solid dependability and quality of function are more difficult and generally expensive to achieve - no surprises here. My task as a consultant was to provide a technical solution that was expected to drasticly reduce that expense. I provided the requested solution (which incorporated solutions to the usual variety of unanticipated side issues) and to the best of my knowlege, that package was shelved because it required a degree of interdepartmental cooperation/communication that too many of the first-line development managers weren't prepared to exercise. (Bummer!) A related issue had to do with more than healthy managerial resistance to technology more advanced than a motor-driven cycle controller - even after their horizontal-axis (front loading) Neptune washer had provided proof positive that micros are here to stay! I was by definition a "short timer" and that attitude was grindingly frustrating to me. I don't want to think about how frustrating it has to be for the R&D folks who're intending to stay with Maytag for the long haul... | In response to another reply, the questions about the likely | outcomes for senior management were rhetorical, although your | detailed answers were insightful. This helps explain the | "shortage" of engineers and the rapidly declining number of | engineering students. Even the "nerdest" engineer can look | up/around and see that while they (and the rest of the "product" | people) are taking it in the shorts big time, management and | finance are riding off with full boodle bags. While both groups | will have some time off, for the product people it will be a mad | scramble for another job so they can keep the house and the car, | while the management and finance people are resting in Cancun. | | Do you happen to know if the Maytag pension plans are fully | funded, or is this another "debt bomb" that will be lobbed into | the PBGC? How about medical care for current retirees? Off | Maytag and onto the taxpayers through Medicare? I don't know. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to anything unrelated to R&D and/or some specific product development. I sat through (too many) meetings and took notice of what was being said about the technology and politics involved with getting the vertical-axis (top loading) Neptune product working and out the door - and the implementation of a methodology to streamline development of all future cycle-based "whiteware". | We need something more than biased B-school case studies. What do | you think of an economic/financial equivalent to the NTSB that | would investigate major corporate "crash and burn" cases? These | could well be a job for Dr. Kavorikan and not a "crash-cart" and | life-support situation. | | In the aggregate the major loss/damage caused by not only Maytag, | but also Enron, Tyco, Ford, EMC, Delta, American, etc., etc., is | a total loss of confidence in the competence and motives of | management by not only their employees, but the majority of | stockholders and the American people. I'd encourage you to make an at least internal distinction between failures resulting from fundamental dishonesty with intent to defraud - and failures resulting from stupidity, lack of due diligence, etc. on the part of fundamentally well-intentioned people. If I were to choose a single cause for Maytag's failure to thrive (which would be a huge over-simplification), that cause would be the selection of a succession of CEO's who lacked the wisdom to define success and to lead their people in that direction. Your summary is basically true; but would you really expect that a government agency /could/ do more than throw good money after bad in these cases? If so, you're far more optimistic than I'd dare to be. One final comment. One of my first questions after starting work at Maytag (and I did ask every single person I worked with) was: "What does it take to make dirty clothes clean?". What I was after were things like how much water per pound of clothes during wash and rinse, how much agitation, how much cleaning agent, etc. with some kind of mathematical relationships and some numbers. No one knew! I was (and still am) dumbfounded that no one at Maytag had ever made a serious effort to define in engineering terms what it takes to make clothes clean. Think about the implications of that tidbit as you ponder business failure causes... |
"wmbjk" wrote in message ... On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:10:55 -0500, "Arnold Walker" wrote: "wmbjk" wrote in message .. . Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving around, but not ICE/air hybrids? Wayne Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts. There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a hybrid version than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases. Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston . Off hand, I can think of three ICE/battery hybrids currently selling in good numbers - Toyota Prius, and Honda Civic and Accord. Unless you can offer some similar examples of ICE/air hybrids, I'm going to stick with the notion that car manufacturers haven't found compressed air to be a competitive energy storage medium for automobiles. Wayne A more accurate answer is that Toyota and Honda chose to capitalize on the PC ,while GM,Mercedes ,and the of the auto world chose to look for an engine. That actually was more effecent at something other than emptying your pockets. Stanley had third market manufacturers converting thier steamcars to air in the early 1900's. Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. If you ever get back to science,instead politics ....you will notice, much of what is new is an old idea rehashed. I ,personally, am happy building the equipment instead of relying on a another person's word on the information. If you really must get fried on your information ......the patent office has about 150years of air drive and electric drive vehicles to flame with you.I don't see the point. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 19:52:44 -0400, JohnM wrote:
Cliff wrote: On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:33 -0400, JohnM wrote: Cliff wrote: On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing wrote: The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a multitude of reasons Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to. You need the context but not the rest. I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context.. John John, I don't think so (but it's possible). Sometimes, with a few others, I only reply to a slight snippet (see jb & Gunner & crew) with a sharp poke G. You go back and look at the thread where we disagreed over the atomic bombing of the Japanese cities and you'll see where I accused you of cutting what I said, resulting in an altered context. Not going to go search but I'm certain that I altered nothing in what I quoted. It could well be that what I quoted showed your general attitude rather well though G. For most the subject (or a specific subset of it), not the author, is the subject (whoops .. a tautology?) Usually I quote the specific bit I'm responding to (for the proper context). I like SHORT, easy-on-the-reader posts, little forced scrolling to find the context, and brevity, usually. Some of the others like huge essays .... but I find that a few well placed words usually do most of the time. I find your few, well placed words to often sound like you haven't thought of anything constructive. "Winger!, WMD's!", etc. Maybe the readers you prefer need it kept simple? Like many of the wingers? Perhaps so. Even than, many still don't get it, or so it seems. Look at poor Gunner .. Much, if not all, of such has been coverd so many times before and they well know it (or should). I see no need to endlessly repeat the same longish replies laden with facts & reasoning or redo any prior research. One may also usually assume that the reader recently read the prior full post that the reply is in response to. I don't believe that to be a safe assumption. Better than always quoting the entire thing IMHO. You go through a thread on a day and you see the posts between then and the last time you looked. There may be responses to something you read three days ago, twenty lines up the thread. There's usually a middle ground between giving enough information about what you're responding to that you're showing consideration for your readers and cutting enough to not waste people's time. Myself, I prefer to err on the side of too much information. I'll stick with brevity, usually G -- Cliff |
On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 03:25:39 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote: "Gunner" wrote in message Bye ****wit. Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more interesting. Funny, you already said goodbye one and you've doing it again. Must be that low memory retention you have. Either that or you just don't know how to end an argument. He'd have to be able to have one first. -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 17:39:39 -0500, "Morris Dovey"
wrote: Maytag My impression of themis one of overpriced stuff that's no better than anyone else's. Perhaps unerelated ... Sears seems to like to sell models that they (Sears) are the sole supplier of spare parts for .... so take a standard model, rebadge it & alter a few key failure prone or consumable items ... -- Cliff |
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:30:15 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: BTW Cliff: Most of that other thread was not my postings. It was a super troll we have been trying to demolish for the last 6 months on a few groups. He doesn't like the vcomplaints to his ISP and News providers so he forges my nickname and treis to libel me in any group I visit. His last known commonly used name is Bunty Jeck. Previously known as Aunty Jack, Eunty JEck, Gymmy Bob, nunja, M II, Taz, Tez, Tbz, T@z, Troll killer and over 300 incarnations of those basic ones over the last year. Very mentally ill (OCD) individual in bed with Wayne and M II here or the same person. Sorry for the confusion but I gave up on that thread. I only post from golden.net. Check the headers Hope you liked the way I trimmed his/her top-posted stuff G. -- Cliff |
In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote: Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be Bull****..... the only Steampowered Trains still in existance, and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries, and mostly run on diesel fired boilers. Turning big air compressors with diesel engines is a very wastefull way to move Railroad Rolling Stock. Me |
Me writes:
In article , "Arnold Walker" wrote: Many steamtrains are now ran on air due to boiler code worrys by insurance companies. CFR (Call for Reference) on the above. as I believe it to be Bull****.... I think so too, especially because even without the water an old boiler pressurized with air is also no small danger. the only Steampowered Trains still in existance, and in commercial service are in third and fouth world countries, There *might* be some stored steam engines still running, typically in chemistry or power plants where steam is available anyway and can be filled into the engine easily. -- Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869 Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23 |
Gee . Maybe that bottom posting stuff isn't so bad after all....LOL
"Cliff" wrote in message ... On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 18:30:15 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi (spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote: BTW Cliff: Most of that other thread was not my postings. It was a super troll we have been trying to demolish for the last 6 months on a few groups. He doesn't like the vcomplaints to his ISP and News providers so he forges my nickname and treis to libel me in any group I visit. His last known commonly used name is Bunty Jeck. Previously known as Aunty Jack, Eunty JEck, Gymmy Bob, nunja, M II, Taz, Tez, Tbz, T@z, Troll killer and over 300 incarnations of those basic ones over the last year. Very mentally ill (OCD) individual in bed with Wayne and M II here or the same person. Sorry for the confusion but I gave up on that thread. I only post from golden.net. Check the headers Hope you liked the way I trimmed his/her top-posted stuff G. -- Cliff |
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