"Scott Willing" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:31:42 -0700, "Ulysses"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 09:30:54 -0700, "Ulysses"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
.. .
On 15 Jun 2005 11:36:20 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

Thanks for the reply.


I started out at 12V primary by virtue of buying a house with an
existing PV system. Like many frontier homebrew systems, it had
started as a purely DC system to which an inverter was added later.

Having no plumbing in the house, I've acquired a number of small 12V
pumps for various specific purposes, such as our bucket shower.

Just curious, but how do you go to the bathroom? Composting toilet?

Yes and no. :-) We have a simple sawdust bucket toilet that sits
beside a commercial composting toilet, now retired. I'm going to tear
out the latter and build a nicer bucket toilet when the time is
available.

Long story, but the commercial toilet is, IMHO, a waste of money.
(Fortunately, wasn't my decision; came with the house.) A bucket
toilet is superior to it in every way.

Most so-called composting toilets, including this one, are actually
evaporating toilets and don't compost per se.

I don't see how ANY of them could actually compost anything when you are
always adding new material.

I don't see a problem with that. I add fresh material to the top of
our working pile once a week until the bin is full and we let 'er
rest. The most active thermophilic zone *is* right near the top where
the new material is added. Our working bin is toasting along at 120
degrees F right at the moment.

Well yes, it seems like it SHOULD work. But you said you retired your
commercial toilets. There must be a reason why.


We learned a lot from Joe Jenkin's "Humanure Handbook" e.g. that we
don't need to do a lot of work turning the pile, and that doing so can
actually kill the thermophilic action. That's exactly what we've found
in practice. Haven't flipped a pile since.

Quite possibly one of the most useful books ever written. Most of what I
know about composting, pathogens, coli bacteria etc. came from that book. I
just make a hile in the top of my pile, add the new stuff, and cover it with
stuff from the sides of the pile.

My composting takes place in the compost heap.
That actually works.

Yep.


Outhouse?

There are two of those here, also retired.

We have shallow groundwater, and an outhouse is an potentially nasty
polluter. Actually septic systems can be just as bad - so many people
manage to pollute their wells with those too. Above-ground aerobic
composting is the way to go IMHO.

-=s
Yea. I built a composting toilet and replaced it with a bigger version
(30
gallon) of the bucket toilet. I overcame the weight problem by putting a
drain at the bottom that goes into a hole (covered, of course) and I used
weeds chopped with a lawnmower or peat moss when there are no weeds
instead
of sawdust.

I'm fortunate enough to have two small smallmills run by neighbors
within a few miles. We tried leaves and stuff but kept bringing in too
many bugs with 'em.

My well is about 300 feet away and down 126 feet.

Excellent.

I've given
some thought to having it go into a solar still and then only clean water
would reach the ground. Haven't figured out yet how to clean the solar
still though. Might be ugly and stinky.

One reason I like the bucket thing is 'cos the pee just goes into the
pile where it contributes nitrogen and helps to keep it at the right
moisture level.

One of our problems with the commercial unit was that no matter what
we did we would eventually end up with flies, e.g. fungus gnats,
living in there. The buckets don't sit around long enough for anything
to breed in 'em.

I thought when we build the new house I might like to try a vault, but
the fly thing really worries me. Plus, we're trying to keep to a
single-story design with no stairs which kinda precludes that anyway.
Best site we have is on a hill though, so there's still the
possibility for ground-level access to a lower-level vault. Dunno.

I'll keep the commercial toilet around just to install it
(temporarily) for getting approvals... something prior residents here
haven't had to concern themselves with.

-=s

In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so
much effecient
at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered
tools.

That question isn't real relative to the discussion as you don't specify
the type of battery your talking about. Some batteries are very
efficent at recharging and some are not. Some batteries have very large
capacities and some do not. Air tools have their place, but it takes a
very large airtank to keep one running for a few hours, without adding
more air. You can't run a soldering iorn off air, but you can off
batteries. Lets see you lug around a portable airtank to run your Impact
Tool, and have it still run after 30 minutes of use. Apple and oranges,
dude......


Me

In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 10:42:37 -0700, the opaque "Ulysses"
spake:

As I understand it, composting toilets always have a second compartment
where the final composting takes place before the stuff is removed.

Yes, and so did mine. The problem I had was I built one that should have
had enough capacity for 5 people but I had to empty it somewhat every 2 or 3
days with 4 people using it. The stuff would sit in the drawer for only 2
days then have to be emptied into a compost heap. With my extra-large
bucket toilet I need to empty it every 7-10 days. Less work for me and a
lot less complicated. No moving parts.

Describe the maintenance cycle on one of these bucket crappers and
their compost heap, please. Is it a PITA? Is it worth the trouble?


--------------------------------------------
-- I'm in touch with my Inner Curmudgeon. --
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
================================================== ==========

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

Thank you :-)

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 23:04:07 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:02:44 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

You would need the right location and the right shop use to make it
practical. Good wind and a custom cabinet shop perhaps.

Perhaps one foreman cracking the whip on a dozen guys toiling with
air-powered sanders, drills, nailers and sprayers? It should be
relatively easy to calculate the daily compressed-air demands of that,
and multiply it by the desired number of days autonomy. I'm guessing
that a surplus 747 pumped up to 1000 psi might cover it. Add one man
to the crew to take care of all the windmills. :-)

The batteries in your string may last what, perhaps 8 years?

They're nearly ten years old now, and I won't be surprised if they
make 15 or 20. But home power systems pretty well always need *some*
batteries, so all we're talking about is whether the size could be
reduced somewhat by an additional system. And keep in mind that a
primary goal of home power (at least at my place), is to minimize the
energy that makes a trip through the batteries.

That's pretty good battery life, you must keep on top of the
maintenance.

My wife reminds me when 4 months is up, but I've usually already
checked the water at about 3 months. It's a big help that we have wind
power and tracking for the PV. So we have a much lower proportion of
our energy making a trip through the batteries than we would with
fixed PV alone. Less charging and discharging equals less maintenance
and longer battery life.

I don't have any cites for it, but it seems quite reasonable to me to
think that there could be windy times when the gen is capable of
supplying more power than the charger is drawing, much like the gas
generator running with the potential to supply say 4kw and a load on it
of only 2kw.

Our wind generator (a typical type) for example makes 3 phase AC, and
has a rectifier/controller indoors. There's no "charger", and no waste
unless the batteries are full. Even then, discretionary loads can make
use of the surplus.

If you're serious, I'd like to see some numbers. How much can the
waste heat from 12kWhrs of inverter use raise the temperature of 80
gallons of water? And how practical is it to capture that by adding
yet another element to a solar water-heating system?

Well, they have systems for recapturing waste heat from showers
available commercially. They also have the energy recovery ventilators
to recover some of the heat from the stale air they are exhausting.
Someone's done the math on those items and determined that it's
worthwhile.

Unless you're in a cold climate where you can always directly utilize
the waste heat for space heating I'd think there would be some merit to
using it for preheat of water to the DHW system. Probably also slightly
increase the life and efficiency of the inverter.

I'll give you this, you sure are determined. ;-)

What's the transformer for? Most applications for VFDs that I've seen
don't use them. Many of the small to mid sized VFDs are specifically
rated to take single phase input and they're also a lot more reasonably
priced these days. At some point I'll replace the rotary phase converter
(home built, $20 in materials) on my Bridgeport with a VFD.

On home power setups, a transformer is often used to double the
voltage of a single 110V inverter to run standard submersible well
pumps. One model here
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/114/p/1/pt/5/product.asp

I haven't heard of a VFD being used with an inverter, but it should be
feasible barring weird compatibility issues. I once set up a VFD to
run a 2hp well pump from a really crummy single phase 4500W
engine-driven generator. The idea was to use a 230V three phase motor,
in order to reduce wire size, lessen startup load on the generator,
and eliminate potential thrashing of the pump against an uncased bore.

Why do you say 24-7? An affordable startup concept I've recommended to
a few is an inverter/charger, batteries, and a Honda EU series. Run
the generator, say, every day for a couple of hours at max output
during peak load times, and for several hours every so often for
battery health. Add solar, wind, etc. as budget allows until generator
time is minimal. For example - DR1512, EU2000, and a string of
batteries from Sam's Club - perhaps $2k total.

That can work fine as long as the goal is to gradually add other
sources. If the plan is to stick with the generator as you comment I was
replying to implied, then the 24x7 operation is what should allow you to
operate at peak efficiency.

I got into this thread to rebut the position that generators on their
own are a good way to do off-grid power. But lots of people do use
generators alone. Compared to that, a
generator/inverter-charger/battery combo is a huge improvement, and if
properly sized can be a practical solution used indefinitely, even if
no other sources are ever brought online. Some inverters can even add
their output to the generator output, which provides a way to power
loads too big for either unit on its own. For explanation and theory,
start at page 57 of the 2mb manual at this site
http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/939/docserve.asp. In case anyone reads
ahead and freaks at the blizzard of optional settings on that unit,
I'll point out that most users change very few of the defaults. The
manual is a good read for anyone who'd like to check out the
capabilities of whole-house inverters.

Well, up first on my list is a solar water heater to take over for the
electric one the place came with. Should be a really easy project that
will have a short payback time.

Excellent idea, here's a link you might find useful
http://members.cox.net/sunraysolar/pricelist.html

Wayne

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 17:42:09 -0700, "Ulysses"
wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .
In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't they
need to be out of phase with each other?

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/114/p/1/pt/5/product.asp

Wayne

On Sat, 18 Jun 2005 07:32:19 +1000, LectroÑuis
wrote:

...try Larry Lixxx for a variationG..this Dude is weird
as,, believe..and hey,

Yup, that looks like gymmy bob/bengi alright. http://tinyurl.com/df7mb
He's been complaining about top posters since 2001? Yikes! I sure wish
his social worker would give him a scroll-wheel mouse already. Anyway,
alt.support.tinnitus? Ringing in the ears, probably due to cranial
defect... that explains a lot.

Wayne

Me wrote:
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't they
need to be out of phase with each other?




Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me
Either 240V give or take a few due to coupling differences or
Zero give or take a few due to coupling differences.

When it is zero the phasing is wrong and must be reversed on one winding.
Many electronic transformers have black dots on the 'true' winding lead
to make phasing easier. Power is just the same simply a single frequency.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

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Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 07:01:33 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 02:42:11 +0100, Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:30:40 GMT, (Dave Mundt) wrote:


Hum...so you DON'T think it is a problem that America
is losing the knowledge, skills and tools to manufacture
even the basic tools we need to keep society going and the
infrastructure kept up?

Our excuse for killing off manufacturing in the UK was Thatcher.
What's America's excuse ?
==============================
Our buzzwords are "maximizing sharholder value" with "free
market" for the rondo.

Yea, I have held for QUITE some time that the biggest
problem with America's businesses is that the MOMENT they
suck up to that investor money tit, they lose sight of
the ORIGINAL purpose of the business (to produce a goods or
service, sell it, and, make a decent profit off it) and become
focused completely on the idea of sucking as much money
out of the customer's pockets as possible, and producing the
bare minimum product to get this to happen.


People go out and drink too much even though they know they will
have a hang over the next day. The major difference in this case
is that the people who are enjoying the party are not the ones
who will suffer the hangover (and have to pay the bar tab).

This is true, too...folks have a long history of
making bad decisions. The best we can do is try to make
better ones...and hopefully, learn from our mistakes before
the crisis gets so bad that we cannot survive.
Keep your powerder dry.
Dave Mundt

Pete C. wrote:
wmbjk wrote:

On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 18:02:44 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:


See my notes below saving four steps of energy conversion for
applications where you are able to use air power directly such as nail
guns and die grinders. Four fewer conversion steps *has* to be more
efficient.

You only need to calculate the numbers for volume and consumption, as
I'm in agreement that with good wind, it's feasible that a resourceful
scrounger could put up sufficient rotor area.


You would need the right location and the right shop use to make it
practical. Good wind and a custom cabinet shop perhaps.


It is far cheaper and lower maintenance to use a
large air or water reservoir than to use a huge string of batteries with
limited life spans and hazardous lead and acid to dispose of properly at
every battery replacement.

Excellent point, and I've committed it to memory in case I decide to
do a utility-scale installation. :-)


The batteries in your string may last what, perhaps 8 years?

They're nearly ten years old now, and I won't be surprised if they
make 15 or 20. But home power systems pretty well always need *some*
batteries, so all we're talking about is whether the size could be
reduced somewhat by an additional system. And keep in mind that a
primary goal of home power (at least at my place), is to minimize the
energy that makes a trip through the batteries.


That's pretty good battery life, you must keep on top of the
maintenance.


Perhaps because I haven't seen the concept even proposed in any
alternate energy books. As far as I know CAS and PH are both fairly new
concepts that originated from electric utilities need for a way to store
excess generating capacity during off peak times for use in peak shaving
later.

Well, since my uh, somewhat unconventional neighbor ;-) thought of
doing compressed air, I think that if it were viable for home power,
it should have become popular by now. The subject of home power scale
pumped hydro comes up here regularly, and those impossible numbers can
be found in the archives.


PH is indeed not feasible for 99.9% of potential homepower locations,
CAS is far more feasible.


This would primarily apply to wind generation where peak gusts could
produce power faster than the batteries could accept it, causing that
power to be dissipated by the charge controller.

I've never heard of that being an issue, and it certainly hasn't come
up at my place, which has a high ratio of wind charging capacity to
battery size, and some pretty gusty winds.


I don't have any cites for it, but it seems quite reasonable to me to
think that there could be windy times when the gen is capable of
supplying more power than the charger is drawing, much like the gas
generator running with the potential to supply say 4kw and a load on it
of only 2kw.


Any reason not to combine both and put up your tall tower with the
electric gen up top and hang a compressor at a lower point on the same
tower?

I think that once you run some numbers, you'll find that an air system
with the capacity you're thinking of will need several big rotors.
While I do have a small wind turbine scabbed onto my tower some
distance from the top, I couldn't add even one Bowjon type thing the
same way. Cheap rotors (multi-piece sheet metal) end up being pretty
heavy. IIRC, the Bowjon has a gearbox as well as the pump.


Tower loading is always an important thing to keep track of.


Guess you just need to setup a heat exchanger from your inverter(s) to
capture the waste heat for your DHW.

If you're serious, I'd like to see some numbers. How much can the
waste heat from 12kWhrs of inverter use raise the temperature of 80
gallons of water? And how practical is it to capture that by adding
yet another element to a solar water-heating system?


Well, they have systems for recapturing waste heat from showers
available commercially. They also have the energy recovery ventilators
to recover some of the heat from the stale air they are exhausting.
Someone's done the math on those items and determined that it's
worthwhile.

Unless you're in a cold climate where you can always directly utilize
the waste heat for space heating I'd think there would be some merit to
using it for preheat of water to the DHW system. Probably also slightly
increase the life and efficiency of the inverter.


Soft start inverter drive to a three phase well pump with an unloader
valve?

Except for the unloader valve which isn't required, that's an approach
I've recommended previously here, partly because the drop in wire size
can save a few bucks on a deep hole. But you're still talking about a
good-sized inverter, plus a transformer, plus a VFD. Considering the
other benefits of dual inverters, our preference was to do that
instead, even though at 1/2hp a VFD wasn't required here, so the
savings on that didn't count.


What's the transformer for? Most applications for VFDs that I've seen
don't use them. Many of the small to mid sized VFDs are specifically
rated to take single phase input and they're also a lot more reasonably
priced these days. At some point I'll replace the rotary phase converter
(home built, $20 in materials) on my Bridgeport with a VFD.


The only way to get reasonable efficiency out of a gen/bat/inv setup is
to size the generator to just barely above the average load and run it
24x7, and that requires a pretty specialized generator to handle that
duty. Not something I'd consider unless I had my own nat gas well, or
bio-gas generator.

Why do you say 24-7? An affordable startup concept I've recommended to
a few is an inverter/charger, batteries, and a Honda EU series. Run
the generator, say, every day for a couple of hours at max output
during peak load times, and for several hours every so often for
battery health. Add solar, wind, etc. as budget allows until generator
time is minimal. For example - DR1512, EU2000, and a string of
batteries from Sam's Club - perhaps $2k total.


That can work fine as long as the goal is to gradually add other
sources. If the plan is to stick with the generator as you comment I was
replying to implied, then the 24x7 operation is what should allow you to
operate at peak efficiency.


Looks like you had to go to some extremes to get your Internet
connectivity.

We were fortunate to be the telco's guinea pig for a couple of radio
systems. The current one gives us multiple POTS lines (although we
only use one) plus DSL. Standard bill, same as if we were hard-wired.
Satellite intenet and next gen wi-fi brings similar connectivity to
just about anyone who needs it.


I looked into satellite not long ago when I was moving to TX. Looks like
it's fine for general use, but it doesn't handle VPN for telecommuting
well at all.

Where I ended up I have cable modem which I got with the package deal
that comes with the expanded digital cable, and two phone lines from the
telco in a rotary hunt group with flat rate long distance. Work pays for
the cable modem and the second phone line, so I get quite a bit of
communications capability and halfway decent TV pretty cheap.


Perhaps as I'm able to build up some AE projects I'll be able to cut
operating expenses enough to start to get ahead.

You have a home shop and an idea for a cheaper alternative to
batteries, the cost of which home power users love to complain about.
Do I need to spell it out for you? ;-)


Well, up first on my list is a solar water heater to take over for the
electric one the place came with. Should be a really easy project that
will have a short payback time. Solar A/C will be a bit more
complicated.

Pete C.

Pointless exercise with Wayne. He can talk the legs off a donkey but
still can't explain his claim of two days autonomy for his system.

And yes he does all his real work during daylight hours.

"George Ghio" wrote in message

Pointless exercise with Wayne. He can talk the legs off a donkey but
still can't explain his claim of two days autonomy for his system.

Pointless or not, by quoting almost 200 lines of text you've demonstrated
very aptly that you don't have any comprehension of how to carry on an
online conversation. Try trimming the rhetoric next time.

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:30:17 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

Pointless exercise with Wayne. He can talk the legs off a donkey but
still can't explain his claim of two days autonomy for his system.

Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a
solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar*
power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his
project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that
propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". OK then, just tell
him how many pounds of fuel you've hauled during your time off-grid,
and how much cheaper and smarter you believe that is over his plan of
spending a few bucks and some time fabricating a system.

And yes he does all his real work during daylight hours.

I assume you'll be explaining how that differs from what most people
do, why welding at night is better, and how when you're drawing 400
Amps, it makes a big difference whether or not your 60 Amps of PV is
lit....

The thread is titled "workshop in a alternate home power environment",
and it has included some discussion about welding in an off-grid
workshop. Since you're a self-described expert welder who also claims
nearly two decades of success in the professional "designing" of solar
power setups, it would seem you're the perfect person to share with
everyone exactly how you handle welding at your own place. I'm sure
Pete and many others would be interested to hear how a
"professional's" system could handle his Miller Syncrowave 250, and
exactly how much of your daily energy production is available for
power tools in general.

Wayne

That troll still lives here? Does he ever talk home power or still just a
troll?

I was wondering if I should take him out of my bozo bin yet? He could have
something interesting to say if he took Eunty Jeck's cock out of his mouth.

You need to trim better or top post , George (both would be even better for
most)

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...



Pointless exercise with Wayne. He can talk the legs off a donkey but
still can't explain his claim of two days autonomy for his system.

And yes he does all his real work during daylight hours.

In article ,
"Arnold Walker" wrote:

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so
much effecient
at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered
tools.

Air tools are generally more compact and lighter than their electric
counterparts. They can also move more energy in the same amount of time.

P.S. If you're going to reply to just one line in a post, please
trim the other 170 lines.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 11:33:52 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com AKA gimmy bob, pizza girl, piezo guru,
larry lix, etc. etc. wrote:

That troll still lives here? Does he ever talk home power or still just a
troll?

I was wondering if I should take him out of my bozo bin yet?

Let's see, you responded directly to one of my posts in this very same
thread, on June 14th http://tinyurl.com/b4cds. How were you able to do
that if I'm filtered? Busted yourself again there Gymmy Boob.

As I've warned you before, so long as you're posting 24-7 in dozens of
groups, you're going to have trouble keeping track of which lies each
of your identities has told. If you were to get off your butt once in
a while and walk around a bit instead, perhaps the increased
circulation would make it easier for you to keep things straight.

Wayne

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

Something else I've wondered about is why is it sometimes called 220, other
times 230, and also 240VAC? Do the different voltages imply single or
double phase or is it just a matter of different voltages in different
geographic locations? My little Honda generator is rated at 125 VAC which
seems to be unusual and that would give us 250 VAC if it was ran through the
step-up transformer.

"lionslair at consolidated dot net" "lionslair at consolidated dot net"
wrote in message ...
Me wrote:
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?




Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me
Either 240V give or take a few due to coupling differences or
Zero give or take a few due to coupling differences.

When it is zero the phasing is wrong and must be reversed on one winding.
Many electronic transformers have black dots on the 'true' winding lead
to make phasing easier. Power is just the same simply a single frequency.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn

Since we are on the subject it occured to me that I have a 120 to 240 V
transformer that I removed from the first house I bought. The
not-real-bright person I bought the house from left it attached and hot with
a male plug sticking out where anyone walking by could run into it. I'll
have to dig it out of it's box-in-the-garage and see if I can make use of
it, now that I have some understanding of how it's supposed to work and be
connected :-)
\

The common voltage in Canada was always 120/240v. I believe the USA was the
same except that the USanians have their own measurement system for almost
everything else so who knows about what they nay have done.

Equipment was rated at 100v, 115v, 117v and 120 v over the years. This was
mostly just due to ignorance and foreign ignorance. The same thing happened
with 240v. It was labelled 220v, 230v and 240v. Some equipment is still
labelled at 250v which is only a class of equipment distinction. (max
capability).

This all applies to single phase descriptions. Some of the confusion can
attributed to 3 phase systems were 208v, 220v and 240v have been used and
bleeds over into single phase systems.

600v, 3 phase systems went through the same thing with 559v, 575v and 600v
being used. The US and western Canada use 480V systems and I am sure went
through the same crap of 440v etc..

The network style voltage or as some called it "3 phase 4 wire one leg out"
is used in apartment and multi dwelling complexes. They have 3 phase 4 wire
transformation and run two out of three phases (with shared neutral) to each
apartment floor or unit. This would give them 120/208v circuits. The 208v is
quite low for the 240v baseboard and appliances so they compromise both
voltages and came up with 125v/216v (root 3 factor). The 125 v is a little
high but within specs (+/-10%) and the 216v is a little but within the specs
also. Tougher lamps are in order to survive on this system. The end result
is much less copper to feed a huge complex.

The end result is there are many terms falsely used but mostly compatible.

I hope some of this helps.

"Ulysses" wrote in message
...

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The
hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider
a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In
our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

Something else I've wondered about is why is it sometimes called 220,
other
times 230, and also 240VAC? Do the different voltages imply single or
double phase or is it just a matter of different voltages in different
geographic locations? My little Honda generator is rated at 125 VAC which
seems to be unusual and that would give us 250 VAC if it was ran through
the
step-up transformer.

wmbjk wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:30:17 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


Pointless exercise with Wayne. He can talk the legs off a donkey but
still can't explain his claim of two days autonomy for his system.


Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a
solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar*
power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his
project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that
propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". OK then, just tell
him how many pounds of fuel you've hauled during your time off-grid,
and how much cheaper and smarter you believe that is over his plan of
spending a few bucks and some time fabricating a system.


And yes he does all his real work during daylight hours.


I assume you'll be explaining how that differs from what most people
do, why welding at night is better, and how when you're drawing 400
Amps, it makes a big difference whether or not your 60 Amps of PV is
lit....

The thread is titled "workshop in a alternate home power environment",
and it has included some discussion about welding in an off-grid
workshop. Since you're a self-described expert welder who also claims
nearly two decades of success in the professional "designing" of solar
power setups, it would seem you're the perfect person to share with
everyone exactly how you handle welding at your own place. I'm sure
Pete and many others would be interested to hear how a
"professional's" system could handle his Miller Syncrowave 250, and
exactly how much of your daily energy production is available for
power tools in general.

Wayne


Ah, Wayne speaks again.

Wayne, I would suggest that utill you can actually supply the numbers
for the system you tout as a marvel of your design prowess that you
forgo giving advice.

In article ,
wmbjk wrote:

A source of mechanical energy can directly drive a compressor head,
saving the extremely inefficient conversions to electricity and back.
Compressed air is easy and economical to store in large volumes and is
free from the chemical hazards of batteries. Useable service life of
compressed air tanks is much higher than batteries as well.

Wind driven compressor - storage tank - air motors? Could be OK if
one had a really windy site, lots of surplus pressure vessels, and a
plenty of rotor diameter. To get an idea of the diameter versus work
produced, check out the size and pumping rates of Bowjon well pumps.

Ya know, you could probably make this work with a little creativity.
Find a compressor that's happy running at any speed between near-zero
and max, (good luck) then rig up a speed governor and a CVT (variable
pulleys would probably be the most practical). Arrange it so that the
governor keeps the windmill turning at optimal speed, and varies the
compressor speed depending on how much energy is available from the
wind. So, light wind, slow compressor, heavy wind, fast compressor.
Unload it through a small restriction when the system's full, so it can
keep the windmill moving, but control its speed. You wouldn't need an
oversized rotor to deal with the torque at high compressor outlet
pressures since the CVT would adjust for that on the fly.
For the tanks, get some pressure protection valves. These work sort
of like check valves, but only open at so many PSI, like 60 or so, and
with no pressure drop through the valve once open. Some are pre-set,
others are adjustable. Set to above your expected working pressure (by
that I mean whatever you set the outlet regulator to) and below your
maximum tank pressure. Just above working pressure is probably best.
Hook it up as compressor- valve- small tank- valve- large tank-
valve- large tank-... Then, for the outlet of all the tanks, regular
check valves to a common manifold and then the regulator.
The result you'd have is a pressure buildup time proportional to the
small tank up to the pressure where the protection valve opens, after
that it'll be proportional to the total volume of first and second until
second is full, then second plus third, and so on. But when using air
your pressure fall would be proportional to the entire system's volume
(or at least the volume of the tanks currently charged up) as the
manifold would always pull from the highest-pressure tank first.
Kind of complex, but would ensure that you have lots and lots of air
available at highest pressure, and your system would be arbitrarily
expandable simply by adding additional tanks at the end of your chain
without hurting buildup time. And with a moderate wind and
appropriately sized first tank, you'd have a good buildup time for when
you actually need highest pressure.
You could even eliminate the unloader scheme if you just stick a
pressure pop off valve at the end of the chain. Or just keep adding
bigger tanks until you can never fill the final one. (:

ASCII Diagram:

Compressor----T1--ppValve--T2--ppValve--T3----pop-off valve
| | | or more tanks
Check Check Check
| | |
v v v
Regulator-------------------------------------
|
v
Out

Probably couldn't run a sandblaster on it, but an impact, grinder,
nailer, or drill would be doable. Could probably even handle the fridge
idea someone mentioned earlier without trouble.
And if you outpace the system on occasion you would be able to
augment it with an engine or electric compressor that runs when you use
a whole lot of air and let the windmill keep the system topped off
otherwise.

--
B.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net
http://web2.airmail.net/thegoat4/

Glenn Ashmore wrote:
Actually the US worked with both the Nationalists and the Communists during
WWII. The Chinese Communists were very helpful during WWII. The
Nationalist government, army and police were largely corrupt while the
Communist were much better disciplined and effective at fighting the
Japanese. That is also why it was so easy for them to chase the
Nationalists off the mainland. We supplied them with quite a bit of arms
and equipment. The communists returned any escaped POWs to US units while
the nationalist were just as likely to give them back to the Japanese if the
money was right.

It was only after the war when the Communists started gaining ground and Mao
aligned himself closer to Stalin that we started getting nervous.


Glenn- I was looking at your site a while back.. Very Cool. How's it coming?

In article ,
Ulysses wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two "hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

Something else I've wondered about is why is it sometimes called 220, other
times 230, and also 240VAC? Do the different voltages imply single or
double phase or is it just a matter of different voltages in different
geographic locations? My little Honda generator is rated at 125 VAC which
seems to be unusual and that would give us 250 VAC if it was ran through the
step-up transformer.

It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the
outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got
better.

Circa WW II line voltage was 110VAC. by the mid 50's, this had climbed to
115VAC. by the early 60's, 117VAC. By the late 60', 120V. The 'two hots'
circuit was frequently called "220", even when the actual voltage was as high
as 235 (2x117). "240" does seem to have mostly displaced the old name.

Anyway, if somebody mentions a number in the 110-120 "or so" range, they're
talking about the same thing. Ditto for anything in the 220-240 range.
"208" is a "special" value. as is "277". Both having to do with specific
arrangements of 'three-phase' circuits.


Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage regulation.
125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:11:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 18:30:17 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

Good timing George, Pete has mentioned that he's going to build a
solar water-heating system in the near future. As you're a *solar*
power consultant, I expect you'll want to offer some tips for his
project. Oh darn, I just remembered, you've written that
propane-fueled water heating is more "appropriate". OK then, just tell
him how many pounds of fuel you've hauled during your time off-grid,
and how much cheaper and smarter you believe that is over his plan of
spending a few bucks and some time fabricating a system.

I assume you'll be explaining how that differs from what most people
do, why welding at night is better, and how when you're drawing 400
Amps, it makes a big difference whether or not your 60 Amps of PV is
lit....

The thread is titled "workshop in a alternate home power environment",
and it has included some discussion about welding in an off-grid
workshop. Since you're a self-described expert welder who also claims
nearly two decades of success in the professional "designing" of solar
power setups, it would seem you're the perfect person to share with
everyone exactly how you handle welding at your own place. I'm sure
Pete and many others would be interested to hear how a
"professional's" system could handle his Miller Syncrowave 250, and
exactly how much of your daily energy production is available for
power tools in general.

Wayne

Ah, Wayne speaks again.

Wayne, I would suggest that utill you can actually supply the numbers
for the system you tout as a marvel of your design prowess that you
forgo giving advice.

What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

snip
People go out and drink too much even though they know they will
have a hang over the next day. The major difference in this case
is that the people who are enjoying the party are not the ones
who will suffer the hangover (and have to pay the bar tab).

This is true, too...folks have a long history of
making bad decisions. The best we can do is try to make
better ones...and hopefully, learn from our mistakes before
the crisis gets so bad that we cannot survive.
snip
Major problem about learning from your mistakes [other than you
may not live to learn] is that from the perspective of the
decision makers these were excellent decisions resulting in
wealth for themselves beyond the dreams of avarice.

From the perspective of everybody else: the first major mistake
was letting these people get into and stay in their position of
power; the second one is letting them keep any of the money they
looted. [RICO anyone?] There is however there is a deeper
problem. In a line originally used about politicians, "they are
like cockroaches - its not what they carry off, its what they
fall into and spoil."

Conventional national defense considerations by themselves should
be enough to justify the retention of our basic manufacturing
capability, cadre and infrastructure.

[totally snipped]

Discussion has drifted to using compressed air as energy-storage medium.

A company I used to work at processed wire, and powered the take-up
reel with a rotary-vane air-motor, used as a constant-torque drive.
Its air consumption was horrendous for the small amount of work it
did.

Another company used an old steam-powered fixed-crane to lift small
barges in and out of the water. Its boiler was long gone, so a 1000
CFM diesel air compressor powered it. Sometimes barely...

Are there available air motors efficient enough to make this storage
scheme practical?


Tom Willmon
near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA

Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered

What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject including
a warning about your own incompetence I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.

Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.

"Scott Willing" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

For example; Scott's post could look more like below:

Thanks
Vaughn


This isn't even quite as extreme as the example I was thinking of.
I'll see if I can dig up another cite, but I think it's probably in a
magazine here so don't hold your breath.

Probably nobody cares but me, but for the sake of the archives I have
to back down somewhat.

Turns out an honest mistake (misreading) by my partner resulted in an
exaggeration that I failed to vet before repeating it when I said:

(Sorry the proper term escapes me.) In this way they can
run sweatshops in wire-fenced compounds and legally print "Made in
USA" on the goods produced there.

We did track down the reference in question, and it was also about the
Marianas. Although this isn't what most people would think of as the
"USA" as in "Made in USA," it is not exactly the sort of "special
region" that I had claimed to exist within other countries. The
Marianas are technically a protectorate - not that this makes it OK,
IMHO - but there is a difference.

There *are* special trading zones set up within foreign sovereign
countries whose status may facilitate sweatshops (reference: No Logo),
but does not confer the right to claim that their products are made in
the US.

Take the hook out of your mouth George. The troll has struck paydirt with
you.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject including
a warning about your own incompetence I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.

Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.

"Robert Bonomi" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ulysses wrote:

"Me" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Ulysses" wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 15:43:10 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:



Not necessarily. Home welding tends to be short duration. The
hardware
to supply that kind of power is actually affordable, and if one is
designing the power system from scratch for what most would
consider a
normal home, then the extra inverter capacity isn't a big deal. In
our
case, for the house loads alone we could have gotten away with a
single SW4024 plus a transformer for the 220V loads.

How is this done, getting 220V from 110? How do you get the two
"hot"
wires? Are there 2 secondary windings on the transformer? Wouldn't
they
need to be out of phase with each other?



Now here is a fellow that asks an inteligent question. If you take
a dual winding secondary with 120 Vac on each winding, feeding it
with a 120 Vac Primary, and connect the dual 120Vac windings in series
you get 240Vac. The phase is determined on how you connect the two
series windings. and they will either be inphase or 180 out of phase,
depending on the connection.

Me

Something else I've wondered about is why is it sometimes called 220,
other
times 230, and also 240VAC? Do the different voltages imply single or
double phase or is it just a matter of different voltages in different
geographic locations? My little Honda generator is rated at 125 VAC
which
seems to be unusual and that would give us 250 VAC if it was ran through
the
step-up transformer.

It's a matter of history. The "standard" -- for what was expected at the
outlet in a residence -- changed over the years as power distribution got
better.

Circa WW II line voltage was 110VAC. by the mid 50's, this had climbed to
115VAC. by the early 60's, 117VAC. By the late 60', 120V. The 'two
hots'
circuit was frequently called "220", even when the actual voltage was as
high
as 235 (2x117). "240" does seem to have mostly displaced the old name.

Anyway, if somebody mentions a number in the 110-120 "or so" range,
they're
talking about the same thing. Ditto for anything in the 220-240 range.
"208" is a "special" value. as is "277". Both having to do with specific
arrangements of 'three-phase' circuits.


Your Honda is probably at claimed 125V because of *lousy* voltage
regulation.
125V at 'no load', dropping to 120V (or lower) as the load increases.


Thanks (to both of you). I can now sleep better at night knowing that there
is no significant difference between 230 and 240 VAC ;-)

My little Honda generator is the inverter type so I suspect the voltage
regulation is extremely good. I don't recall ever having a need to check it
so I don't know offhand if it's accurate or not. I'll probably be checking
it soon though because this morning my circular saw was not starting (as
though it was not plugged in) and then my belt sander was having trouble
getting up to speed. I was also running a 40 amp battery charger so I may
have gone over capacity on the poor little Honda. But the Honda has about
12,000 hours on it (original engine) so I guess I can't expect too much from
it.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

I apologize, but first you must permit me to utter a good-natured
"Duh."

For everyone who says "trim" there will be at least one who says "trim
under pain of death." Yes, trimming is considered by many to be a sin
on usenet, especially by those who were here before the great unwashed
masses gained access... and also have control issues.

The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons, and purists (which I'm decidedly not) insist
that the entire thread be kept intact, so when alien archeologists
studying the leftover bits of blown-out humanity don't have to work so
hard to figure out the context. As for me, well, I think a little
judicious trimming goes a long way towards readability.

In this case I did feel it especially important to retain the thread
as the trail was a little cold on this one... or so I thought.

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

Anyway, wrt to trimming, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

BTW#2 - lest you think I'm unsympathetic to bandwidth issues, I'm on a
freaking "28.8k" dial that usually gives me 26.4k... a number I'd
never even heard of before moving here.

Now, in deference to your preference, and also for the dirty pleasure
of sticking it in the face of my favorite usenet nazi, I'll trim the
rest of your post. gasp! horrors!

-=s

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth


Bandwidth is a non issue. Not since the binary groups started putting
3 hour movies on the net...


Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

Hey John!


On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 13:11:30 -0700, "John" wrote:


Snipped

Hi Matt, Where've you been? Crankin' out too many parts to get into =
any of=20
the ongoing arguments? g

Not really. I know enough about politics to make myself look stupid,
and in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Besides,
these malcontents, no matter which side of the fence they're on, are
talking out both sides of their mouths anyway. They each think their
Opinions and Theories are FACTS, they're constantly beating each other
up with their "facts", and reality doing nothing more than trying to
cram their "facts" down our throats. Then, when someone does refute
their arguments with actual facts that they can't deny, they start
slinging personal insults. So, trying to engage them with any form of
reasoning is a nothing but a serious waste of time.


Hey, remember that little 3-48 x .054" set screw? We finally got it =
running=20
pretty good on the Tsugami. We're making it out of 416HT stainless and =
are=20
using a Habegger adjustable thread rolling die. Almost full thread =
profile=20
right to the ends. So far, so good. (crossed fingers).

Cool! Glad you got it going. It ran great on my ENC-74. The only
problem is that on that machine, it ran so slow that it was costing me
money to make your parts. I originally quoted it to run on a cam
operated Tornos R-10. The basic part ran great. Had I been able to
stop the .050" hex broach from sticking (spring loaded drill spindle
couldn't retract it every time), it would been a good job to have. As
it was, I had trouble making your deliveries because I couldn't tie my
CNC up for very long on a part for which I wasn't making any money :-(
Too bad really, it was a fun part to make. I still get a kick out of
showing it to people. "Wow! How'd you make that little bugger? & No
****! There's a hex in there?"

BTW, how are you de-burring the broached hex ID on the cut-off end?=20
I tried acid de-burr, but it cost more than the parts were worth. I
finally wound up having to pay an operator to sit and poke each part,
after looking at them to see which end was the end with the burr, from
the cut-off end and push the burr through the hex hole (shear the burr
off in the hex). Did a few thousand of them myself, as well. Major
PITA, and really rough on the eyes.


I better get out of here before I get flamed for not being on-topic =
enough.

Why? I rarely see anyone else in the group stay on topic these days:-)
(well...except those of us that were around pre-Cliff)

Take care John,

Matt

Sitll laughing

John P Bengi wrote:
Take the hook out of your mouth George. The troll has struck paydirt with
you.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject including
a warning about your own incompetence I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.

Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:22:04 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Discussion has drifted to using compressed air as energy-storage medium.

A company I used to work at processed wire, and powered the take-up
reel with a rotary-vane air-motor, used as a constant-torque drive.
Its air consumption was horrendous for the small amount of work it
did.

Another company used an old steam-powered fixed-crane to lift small
barges in and out of the water. Its boiler was long gone, so a 1000
CFM diesel air compressor powered it. Sometimes barely...

Are there available air motors efficient enough to make this storage
scheme practical?

Not that I know of. Like you I can think of examples that prove the
inefficiency - like a standard corded 3/8 drill that needs but a few
hundred Watts of electricity, while its air-powered cousin keeps a
1500 Watt compressor pretty busy. Just the same, I can imagine a
Bowjon type windmill/compressor generating compressed air for home
shop use. It wouldn't be efficient, but the losses wouldn't matter if
the shop's demands were low, and if the windmill, pump, tank and labor
were all cheap. It's not something I'd bother with though, and even
for somebody with lots of time on their hands, I'd expect wind-driven
shop air to come *after* solar-heated water and wind-powered battery
charging.

Wayne

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote-

What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject

OPs come and go, and the discussion goes on. But it's obvious that you
had absolutely nothing to offer in the thread even *before* this
so-called overload of help. That's for the simple reason that your
idea of a powering an off-grid workshop, is to buy and fuel a
generator. Which in your lingo, makes everyone who's ever used a
generator to power a remote job site or camp site, a "solar power
consultant".

a warning about your own incompetence

Warnings from you are worth slightly less than warnings about the
necessity for tinfoil hats.

I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.

No, it wouldn't matter if he came back specifically to ask you for
details. All you can offer is: "I've been using a generator for 20
years, and it really ****es me off that so many people have managed
things that I cannot".

Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.

I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 08:59:00 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

John P Bengi wrote:
Take the hook out of your mouth George. The troll has struck paydirt with
you.

Sitll laughing

Perhaps laughing is easier than admitting that your sole supporter is
the infamous Gymmy Bob, a loon who hopes to set a record for most
posting IDs. I notice that despite being mocked for it, neither of you
has posted any details about your off-grid workshops. Here, allow me -
If Gymmy/Bengi/Larry Lix/pizza girl actually owns the few Watts of PV
he's claimed, then the combined solar output of the Blunder-Loon power
company is less than 2kWhrs per day, or about as much as a cheapie
generator from Home Depot produces in 30 minutes. If you could sell
the energy at retail, the income would be about $73 per year, which is
$74 more than the two of you together are worth as fertilizer.

Wayne

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth

Bandwidth is a non issue. Not since the binary groups started putting
3 hour movies on the net...

Perhaps but there are still a lot of people using slow dialup
modems and bandwidth remains an issue with them even on these
text newsgroups. Clipping the message appropriately also helps
improve legibility.

Anthony

Yes, I know but this guy only trolls here and adds next to nothing. It's
very easy to sit back, say nothing and take potshots at people's spelling
and other idiosyncrasies. We all do it to a certain extent but most try to
discuss (the reason for being here) and this one doesn't seem to have
anything postive to say ever.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...
Sitll laughing

John P Bengi wrote:
Take the hook out of your mouth George. The troll has struck paydirt
with
you.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne

The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject including
a warning about your own incompetence I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.

Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

I apologize, but first you must permit me to utter a good-natured
"Duh."

For everyone who says "trim" there will be at least one who says "trim
under pain of death." Yes, trimming is considered by many to be a sin
on usenet, especially by those who were here before the great unwashed
masses gained access... and also have control issues.


Trimming has long been an honorable and noble Usenet tradition and has
always been strongly encouraged, particularly when bandwidth issues, even
with text postings, was an issue. Trimming has been severely chastised in
times past, present, and future, when the trimmer deliberately trims
context out of posts to either strengthen the poster's position in a debate
or to weaken or ignore the points of another poster.


The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons, and purists (which I'm decidedly not) insist
that the entire thread be kept intact, so when alien archeologists
studying the leftover bits of blown-out humanity don't have to work so
hard to figure out the context. As for me, well, I think a little
judicious trimming goes a long way towards readability.


.... as it should be.

.... snip
BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.


Frankly, even as *not* a usenet nazi, top-posting drives me up a wall.
As one poster's sig says:

A: Because it destroys the logic of a thread
Q: Why is top-posting bad?

.... snip



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+