On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:56:46 -0700, Anthony Matonak
wrote:

Gunner wrote:
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth

Bandwidth is a non issue. Not since the binary groups started putting
3 hour movies on the net...

Perhaps but there are still a lot of people using slow dialup
modems and bandwidth remains an issue with them even on these
text newsgroups.

Do you download every body of every post, or just the headers to see
if you are interested, then download them?

Clipping the message appropriately also helps
improve legibility.

It may. It may not.

Anthony

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 17:56:46 -0700, Anthony Matonak
wrote:


Anthony

Sometimes.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote-

What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne


The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject


OPs come and go, and the discussion goes on. But it's obvious that you
had absolutely nothing to offer in the thread even *before* this
so-called overload of help. That's for the simple reason that your
idea of a powering an off-grid workshop, is to buy and fuel a
generator. Which in your lingo, makes everyone who's ever used a
generator to power a remote job site or camp site, a "solar power
consultant".


a warning about your own incompetence


Warnings from you are worth slightly less than warnings about the
necessity for tinfoil hats.


I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.


No, it wouldn't matter if he came back specifically to ask you for
details. All you can offer is: "I've been using a generator for 20
years, and it really ****es me off that so many people have managed
things that I cannot".


Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.


I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and year.

I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.

OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.

The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.

You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications. Yet you claim tens years experiance. Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 12:37:18 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

There *are* special trading zones set up within foreign sovereign
countries

They exist INSIDE the US as well.
Examples in Michigan (I once worked inside one):
http://www.crcmich.org/EDSurvey/fedzones/ftz.html
--
Cliff

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:42:58 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth


Bandwidth is a non issue. Not since the binary groups started putting
3 hour movies on the net...

PEOPLE have bandwidth too.
WHY make us search an old post for new material
when there is none?

Poor clueless gunner ...
--
Cliff

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:


The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons

Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to.
You need the context but not the rest.
--
Cliff

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

More may be below .... go reread it all G.


On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

I apologize, but first you must permit me to utter a good-natured
"Duh."

For everyone who says "trim" there will be at least one who says "trim
under pain of death." Yes, trimming is considered by many to be a sin
on usenet, especially by those who were here before the great unwashed
masses gained access... and also have control issues.

The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons, and purists (which I'm decidedly not) insist
that the entire thread be kept intact, so when alien archeologists
studying the leftover bits of blown-out humanity don't have to work so
hard to figure out the context. As for me, well, I think a little
judicious trimming goes a long way towards readability.

In this case I did feel it especially important to retain the thread
as the trail was a little cold on this one... or so I thought.

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

Anyway, wrt to trimming, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

BTW#2 - lest you think I'm unsympathetic to bandwidth issues, I'm on a
freaking "28.8k" dial that usually gives me 26.4k... a number I'd
never even heard of before moving here.

Now, in deference to your preference, and also for the dirty pleasure
of sticking it in the face of my favorite usenet nazi, I'll trim the
rest of your post. gasp! horrors!

-=s
--
Cliff

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 20:58:22 -0700, Mark & Juanita
wrote:

A: Because it destroys the logic of a thread
Q: Why is top-posting bad?

A. Top Posting.























Q. What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?
--
Cliff

Several people have indicated the Current Accounts Ballance of
Payments [trade] deficit was meaningless.

Among other problems, accumulation of U.S. dollars allows the
purchase of U.S. companies, and the transfer of U.S. jobs. See
Reuters article below for details of how the jobs at Maytag were
traded for cheap imports. Another example is the sale by IBM of
their line of personal computers.

The problem is not with the Chinese, they are just good business
men and take an opportunity when it is available. The problem
is with the people who made the opportunity available.

How much tax revenues will be lost to the U.S. and how much of a
hit will the taxpayer take through the PBGC on the pensions?


========== Reuters article follows =======
Haier, equity firms bid for Maytag

By Doug Young 36 minutes ago

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - Top Chinese appliance maker Haier and
private equity giants Bain and Blackstone have bid $1.28 billion
for Maytag Corp., trumping Ripplewood's offer for the ailing U.S.
corporation.

Haier's global ambitions would be boosted with the addition of
Maytag, the maker of washing machines and Hoover vacuums that has
fallen on tough times amid rising costs and competition from
low-cost makers.

Maytag said in a statement released late on Monday in New York
that it had received a preliminary bid of $16 a share from a
consortium comprising Haier Group, Bain Capital and The
Blackstone Group.

That would be about 14 percent higher than a $14 per share offer
by U.S. buyout firm Ripplewood Holdings LLC., part of a
consortium whose members include Goldman Sach's GS Capital
Partners and the J. Rothschild Group.

Under the Haier proposal, due diligence is expected to take six
to eight weeks to complete, Maytag said in its statement. The
group would look to Merrill Lynch to provide debt financing, it
added.

"We continue to support the Ripplewood transaction," Howard
Clark, Maytag's lead director, said in a statement.

"However, we also believe that it is incumbent on us to pursue
this possibility of achieving a higher price for our
stockholders."

No official counter offer had been submitted yet, a source
familiar with the matter told Reuters. Bain and Blackstone
declined comment. Haier has said it was interested in Maytag, but
a spokeswoman would not comment further on Tuesday.

"Chinese companies don't have brand equity outside of China," a
Tokyo-based analyst said.

"To build that themselves, in the same way the Toyotas of the
world do it, is pretty hard. It's the intangible assets they're
buying."

THE LONG HAUL

Their competing bid would also mark the first major attempt at an
international acquisition by Haier Group, a state conglomerate
that controls Shanghai-listed Qingdao Haier Refrigerator Co. Ltd.
and Hong Kong-listed Haier Electronics Group Co. Ltd.

Haier Electronics had climbed 2.6 percent to HK$0.198 by 0611
GMT, vastly outperforming the market's 0.21 percent dip.

Haier is probably willing to pay a premium for Maytag because it
could keep the company over the longer term for its brand, while
Ripplewood would be more likely to sell in the long run, the
Tokyo-based analyst said.

The consortium, whose Haier component came from Haier America
Trading LLC, had expressed its interest in the run-up to a
deadline last Friday for competing offers.

Maytag shares closed up 7 cents at $15.23 in Monday trading in
New York. Its shares are up about 5 percent since word first
emerged last week that Haier and others were considering rival
bids for the company.

Haier is a well-known name in China, commanding 26 percent of the
domestic refrigerator market and 17 percent of the air
conditioning market at the end of 2003.

It is also one of the nation's few brands to make headway in
foreign markets, cornering nearly half the U.S. compact
refrigerator market and more than half that for wine coolers.

OVERSEAS M&A

Haier's foray would follow similar moves by some of China's
biggest firms as they look beyond their domestic strongholds.

Generally, Chinese companies have picked up struggling businesses
in mature industries, hoping to use their growing prowess as
low-cost manufacturers to turn those assets around.

Earlier this year, Lenovo Group Ltd. purchased the PC-making unit
of IBM for $1.25 billion. It later brought in private equity
firms Texas Pacific Group, General Atlantic LLC and Newbridge
Capital LLC, which contributed $350 million as part of the deal.

TCL Corp. has also been active, buying the cellphone-making
assets of France's Alcatel S.A. and the TV-making assets of
France's Thomson

But the Chinese move abroad has also included some stumbles, such
as an aborted takeover of struggling British carmaker MG Rover by
top car maker Shanghai Automotive Industry Corp.

Oil company CNOOC Ltd. has expressed possible interest in U.S.
oil company Unocal Corp., and China's Minmetals Corp. has
expressed interest in Canadian mining firm Noranda Inc.

(Additional reporting by Godwin Chellam in Shanghai, Chawadee
Nualkhair in Tokyo and Michael Flaherty in New York)

F. George McDuffee writes:
Several people have indicated the Current Accounts Ballance of
Payments [trade] deficit was meaningless.

Among other problems, accumulation of U.S. dollars allows the
purchase of U.S. companies, and the transfer of U.S. jobs. See
Reuters article below for details of how the jobs at Maytag were
traded for cheap imports. Another example is the sale by IBM of
their line of personal computers.

And the doomsayers were saying this about Japan when a Japanese
businessman bought pebble beach in the 80's. He
subsequently sold it back to an American consoritium for a
significant loss.

scott

(Note that quoting an entire article from reuters is not considered
fair use. An excerpt, yes, but for the entire article you should have
just included a URL.)

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:19:06 GMT, Matt Stawicki
wrote:

I know enough about politics to make myself look stupid,
and in the grand scheme of things, it really doesn't matter. Besides,
these malcontents, no matter which side of the fence they're on, are
talking out both sides of their mouths anyway. They each think their
Opinions and Theories are FACTS, they're constantly beating each other
up with their "facts", and reality doing nothing more than trying to
cram their "facts" down our throats.

Found those "WMDs" yet?
--
Cliff

Then read the previous post. What were you doing reading the response to
nothing first?

You bottom posters are nuts and fanatics over something that went out in the
80s since threading browsers.

Keep your damn headers with the text.

When you get a browser that actually supports bottom posting I will join
you. Until then **** off with your trolling.

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

"Cliff" wrote in message ...
It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

More may be below .... go reread it all G.


On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

I apologize, but first you must permit me to utter a good-natured
"Duh."

For everyone who says "trim" there will be at least one who says "trim
under pain of death." Yes, trimming is considered by many to be a sin
on usenet, especially by those who were here before the great unwashed
masses gained access... and also have control issues.

The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons, and purists (which I'm decidedly not) insist
that the entire thread be kept intact, so when alien archeologists
studying the leftover bits of blown-out humanity don't have to work so
hard to figure out the context. As for me, well, I think a little
judicious trimming goes a long way towards readability.

In this case I did feel it especially important to retain the thread
as the trail was a little cold on this one... or so I thought.

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

Anyway, wrt to trimming, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

BTW#2 - lest you think I'm unsympathetic to bandwidth issues, I'm on a
freaking "28.8k" dial that usually gives me 26.4k... a number I'd
never even heard of before moving here.

Now, in deference to your preference, and also for the dirty pleasure
of sticking it in the face of my favorite usenet nazi, I'll trim the
rest of your post. gasp! horrors!

-=s
--
Cliff

Leave the child alone. He doesn't know anything.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote-

What a surprise, not so much of a whiff of information about the topic
at hand. I suggest that it's only fair when criticizing others, that
you ought to be explaining how *you* handle supplying power to an
off-grid workshop. Especially since you're cross-posting to a group
that isn't familiar with your claims of being both an expert welder
*and* a "solar power consultant". Here, let me help you...

George believes that after professing to have a couple of decades
experience as a professional in the solar biz, that it makes infinite
sense that he's hauled some 15 *tons* of fuel to his own place
(without even counting wood for space heating), and must start a
generator for any load over a few hundred Watts. He's also of the
opinion that many of society's ills can be traced to a dependence on
powered devices (as in: anything *he* doesn't have), and says he wants
for nothing on one (1) kWhr per day. That's $3 per month electricity
for you grid-connected folks. While most off-grinders who live in an
area as sunny as George's quickly learn the benefits of solar water
heating, George intends to wait for the concept to be proven before
spending a few hundred bucks on it. And most important of all, he
absolutely can't stand to hear about people who've done it better,
which is just about everyone else. Which explains why he's found
bitter fault with most of the regulars in the energy groups. Does that
about cover the high points George? You're welcome.

Wayne


The fact that TMT has had an overload of help with the subject


OPs come and go, and the discussion goes on. But it's obvious that you
had absolutely nothing to offer in the thread even *before* this
so-called overload of help. That's for the simple reason that your
idea of a powering an off-grid workshop, is to buy and fuel a
generator. Which in your lingo, makes everyone who's ever used a
generator to power a remote job site or camp site, a "solar power
consultant".


a warning about your own incompetence


Warnings from you are worth slightly less than warnings about the
necessity for tinfoil hats.


I am sure that he has already
worked out that he will have to decide what to do to suit his own needs.


No, it wouldn't matter if he came back specifically to ask you for
details. All you can offer is: "I've been using a generator for 20
years, and it really ****es me off that so many people have managed
things that I cannot".


Your fictions are only the mutterings of a sad case who still can not
post a sensable account of his energy use let alone anyone else's.


I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and
year.

I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.

OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.

The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.

You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications. Yet you claim tens years experiance. Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Ah, a msoft zealot -- that explains it. In your previous posting you
whined about no browser supporting bottom posting, yet as shown above, you
recognize that Agent, as well as many other Usenet readers that were around
before Saint Bill discovered the Internet conform to the bottom posting
convention.

.... snip


+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the headers
and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent supports this
bottom posting garbage idea.

It will only take one more response to demo what a dumb idea bottom posting
was. Try to attach your previous posts at the bottom while you are at it
like you do in your emails you send.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Ah, a msoft zealot -- that explains it. In your previous posting you
whined about no browser supporting bottom posting, yet as shown above, you
recognize that Agent, as well as many other Usenet readers that were around
before Saint Bill discovered the Internet conform to the bottom posting
convention.

... snip



+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Posting returned to usenet bottom-posting convention.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Ah, a msoft zealot -- that explains it. In your previous posting you
whined about no browser supporting bottom posting, yet as shown above, you
recognize that Agent, as well as many other Usenet readers that were around
before Saint Bill discovered the Internet conform to the bottom posting
convention.

... snip



+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+


BTW, most "real" usenet reading software is smart enough to trim sig
lines from the reply lines.

Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the headers
and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent supports this
bottom posting garbage idea.


??? "separating the headers and the text?, what are you talking about?
The headers of a posting are the routing and history information of the
posting and associated book-keeping. The text is the body of the message.

It will only take one more response to demo what a dumb idea bottom posting
was. Try to attach your previous posts at the bottom while you are at it
like you do in your emails you send.


Why do I want to do that? There is no reason to attach previous posts if
the context of a message has been properly preserved in the thread.

Also note another pre-Saint Bill usenet convention -- interspersed
comments within the posting. This helps preserve the dialog and keep
comments with relevant context.

I'm done with this, I've got better things to do with my time. Feel free
to post whatever ridicule you choose; have a nice life.






+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Outleak Exploder?

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gunner


"Cliff" wrote in message ...
It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

More may be below .... go reread it all G.


On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 18:20:28 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
wrote:


"Scott Willing" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 16 Jun 2005 20:19:43 -0500, Scott Willing

Please people! Trim your posts. If you do so, you will not only save
bandwidth, but you will save readers lots of scrolling and they will be much
more likely to actually read your post. To trim, all you have to do is
highlight the area to be eliminated and hit your "Del" key.

I apologize, but first you must permit me to utter a good-natured
"Duh."

For everyone who says "trim" there will be at least one who says "trim
under pain of death." Yes, trimming is considered by many to be a sin
on usenet, especially by those who were here before the great unwashed
masses gained access... and also have control issues.

The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons, and purists (which I'm decidedly not) insist
that the entire thread be kept intact, so when alien archeologists
studying the leftover bits of blown-out humanity don't have to work so
hard to figure out the context. As for me, well, I think a little
judicious trimming goes a long way towards readability.

In this case I did feel it especially important to retain the thread
as the trail was a little cold on this one... or so I thought.

BTW, the same purists (aka usenet nazis) will slap your willy for
top-posting too, and they really get their knickers in a knot about
it. We can only assume their mommies overdid the spanking a bit... and
that they really, *really* liked it.

Anyway, wrt to trimming, it's "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

BTW#2 - lest you think I'm unsympathetic to bandwidth issues, I'm on a
freaking "28.8k" dial that usually gives me 26.4k... a number I'd
never even heard of before moving here.

Now, in deference to your preference, and also for the dirty pleasure
of sticking it in the face of my favorite usenet nazi, I'll trim the
rest of your post. gasp! horrors!

-=s
--
Cliff

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

"wmbjk" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 15:14:41 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
wrote:

"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .

How big a tank? I think you're going to find a fly in the ointment
once you run some numbers on air consumption. And if air power could
be so efficient and practical, why do you believe it is that
off-gridders, often known to be innovative and unafraid of breaking
with convention, haven't flocked to the concept?

Another fly in the oiment on your battery remark.....if batteries are so
much effecient
at storaging .Why are repair shop using air tools instead battery powered
tools.

For the same reason that I use many air tools in my own shop - because
they're often lighter, cheaper, and more compact than electric
versions. Sometimes efficiency isn't very important.

Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then
why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving
around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne
Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts.
There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a hybrid
version
than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases.
Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston .





----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:

I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and year.

Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.

Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.

OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.

As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.

I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.

You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.

My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.

Yet you claim tens years experiance.

I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.

Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.

What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.

Wayne

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 05:10:55 -0500, "Arnold Walker"
wrote:


"wmbjk" wrote in message
.. .

Now, if compressed air is so much more efficient than batteries, then
why do *you* think that we're seeing ICE/battery hybrid cars driving
around, but not ICE/air hybrids?

Wayne

Because it is pure PC instead of science for starts.
There are and have been air powered cars...they are lighter for a hybrid
version
than a battery hybrid.Since all you do is add a burner in most cases.
Brayton cycle in a turbine ....Or rankine or sterling in a piston .

Off hand, I can think of three ICE/battery hybrids currently selling
in good numbers - Toyota Prius, and Honda Civic and Accord. Unless you
can offer some similar examples of ICE/air hybrids, I'm going to stick
with the notion that car manufacturers haven't found compressed air to
be a competitive energy storage medium for automobiles.

Wayne

snip
And the doomsayers were saying this about Japan when a Japanese
businessman bought pebble beach in the 80's. He
subsequently sold it back to an American consoritium for a
significant loss.
snip
One problem with this approach/attitude is that it ignores the
human costs. This is actually 1,600 well paying manufacturing
jobs affecting 1,500 or more families, and 14.8 million dollars
in local tax revenues.

Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge
into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and
dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the
jobs and local taxes revenue they represent.

Third problem will not be come apparent for a few years when
anguished messages are posted to these news groups lamenting that
blanking and forming die tool makers and press set-up men are
unavailable.

If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.

See these URLs for additional/background info

http://www.jobsillinois.us/news/cont...w.asp?c=123669

http://www.iasb.com/files/nb0604.htm

http://www.cfoss.com/maytag.html

F. George McDuffee wrote:

One problem with this approach/attitude is that it ignores the
human costs. This is actually 1,600 well paying manufacturing
jobs affecting 1,500 or more families, and 14.8 million dollars
in local tax revenues.

A visit to Newton might provide some insights. Spending a bit of time
inside Maytag's headquarters, R&D facility, and manufacturing areas
might leave you wondering why it's taken so long for this to happen.

Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge
into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and
dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the
jobs and local taxes revenue they represent.

The threat to Whirlpool is certainly /possible/; but not a given. It
will take a fair amount of time and a huge expenditure of resources to
bring Maytag to the point where it's again sufficiently robust to
threaten Whirlpool. It could happen, but only if Whirlpool management
allows it to happen.

Third problem will not be come apparent for a few years when
anguished messages are posted to these news groups lamenting that
blanking and forming die tool makers and press set-up men are
unavailable.

This seems like a logical conclusion - but it might be worth
investigating to find out how many of these people Maytag directly
employs and what their average age is...

If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.

Hmm. I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion; but my own
opinion (formed by direct observation) is that it's unlikely that the
Chinese will value the current Maytag employees less than the old
management. The major differences, I suspect, will be that outsourced
operations will be relocated from Germany and Mexico to the Pacific
Rim.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

snip
If this were an event that affected only a few players, I would
be selling tickets. Unfortunately, this almost entirely affects
only the average person with roots in their community and many
years invested in learning a trade.
==========
Hmm. I'm not sure how you've reached your conclusion; but my own
opinion (formed by direct observation) is that it's unlikely that the
Chinese will value the current Maytag employees less than the old
management. The major differences, I suspect, will be that outsourced
operations will be relocated from Germany and Mexico to the Pacific
Rim.
===================
To put it another way -- If you are going Vegas or Atlantic City,
it is expected that you will use your own money to gamble. If
you use the company's money and are discovered you go to jail.
Even if you win, the winnings belong to the company and not to
you [common law master/servant rule] .

The way it is now, individuals are making high stakes bets, and
keeping the winnings if they win and making other people eat the
losses if the lose.

If I sell you a machine that I don't own and keep the money for
myself and get caught, I will be put in jail and the legal owner
can recover the machine. Why is it any different with a
corporation? What will the individual managers of Maytag lose by
this move after they have run the company into the ground? How
many collected bonuses over the last few years? How much will the
US taxpayers have to pony up for the pensions?

John P Bengi wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
It's nice to know the CONTEXT or the question before
the response, for one thing.

More may be below .... go reread it all G.



OE is Junk.

F. George McDuffee wrote:

What will the individual managers of Maytag lose by
this move after they have run the company into the ground? How
many collected bonuses over the last few years? How much will the
US taxpayers have to pony up for the pensions?

Lose? Nothing at all. Their resumes will reflect that they brokered a
desirable transfer of ownership on behalf of their shareholders.

Lotsa bonus dollars paid out. Not sure what'll happen to the value of
Ralph Hakes' million dollar home in Newton (probably don't need to
tell you that a million dollar home in a small town in Iowa bears
astonishingly little resemblance to a million dollar home in say, San
Francisco or Fairfax), but doubt that he's too concerned about real
estate values at the moment.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

I rest my case. You lose.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Posting returned to usenet bottom-posting convention.

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Ah, a msoft zealot -- that explains it. In your previous posting you
whined about no browser supporting bottom posting, yet as shown above,
you
recognize that Agent, as well as many other Usenet readers that were
around
before Saint Bill discovered the Internet conform to the bottom posting
convention.

... snip




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough



+--------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
-----+


BTW, most "real" usenet reading software is smart enough to trim sig
lines from the reply lines.

Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the headers
and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent supports this
bottom posting garbage idea.


??? "separating the headers and the text?, what are you talking about?
The headers of a posting are the routing and history information of the
posting and associated book-keeping. The text is the body of the message.

It will only take one more response to demo what a dumb idea bottom
posting
was. Try to attach your previous posts at the bottom while you are at it
like you do in your emails you send.


Why do I want to do that? There is no reason to attach previous posts
if
the context of a message has been properly preserved in the thread.

Also note another pre-Saint Bill usenet convention -- interspersed
comments within the posting. This helps preserve the dialog and keep
comments with relevant context.

I'm done with this, I've got better things to do with my time. Feel free
to post whatever ridicule you choose; have a nice life.







+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough


+---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----+

wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne


You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and
raised in San Diego.

Second, I can and have outlined my energy use for for all resources.

The assumptions you make are the fiction. You do not know what your
system does. You copied a design and when it failed to work you doubled
the solar and wind input.

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and year.


Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

Being able to account for energy use is simply the result of knowing
what you are doing.

A "putterer" is one who claims he can use a MIG welder in both
directions. Please note Wayne that the direction to run a MIG torch is
in the direction of the gas flow. A MIG torch is not, as you seem to
think, a hot melt glue gun.

A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial
Steel" So what's your ticket.

My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no
connection between them.

My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen
set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw.

Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what?

So, yes I can account for my entire energy use.

Is this important? Yes.

Why?

Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't
know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what
you are doing.




I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.


Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.


OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.


As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

Tell the truth Wayne, you can't post what you don't know.


The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.


I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.

God help them.



You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.


My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.


Yet you claim tens years experiance.


I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

So you claim.

Nothing is represented.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.


Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do
not have yet is the parbolic system.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.


What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.

Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the
people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at
best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not
Wayne's needs or George's needs.

My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads
because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an
eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW
system on site in two days.

As most of my solar work is on site what good would a huge solar power
system at home do me. Can't drag that around with me can I?

As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps
five hours a month.

The reason I have the generator is because I bought it to build the
house. It is still serviceable and portable.

No Wayne your nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

You and I both run what we need to run.

The difference is that I do it by design and know what goes in and out.
I know I have five days autonomy at my daily load

You built a system then doubled the solar and wind to make it work and
still don't know why. You think you have two days autonomy at some airy
fairy reduced load.

The warning about your advice still stands as valid.

LOL. well said but trolls never listen. They just become more hostile and
more trolly.

"George Ghio" wrote in message
...


wmbjk wrote:
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 18:41:15 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


wmbjk wrote:

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 00:54:27 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


I've lived in, and worked out of, an actual solar/wind powered home
and workshop for nearly ten years. Both have the amenities that most
people consider "normal", and together they require about 50 gallons
of backup fuel per year. A respected regular in the energy newsgroups
has publicly affirmed my descriptions of our place after visiting
here. The only fiction is from a bitter old Aussie fart who doesn't
like having to admit that his own so-called "solar powered" home in
fact gets the majority of its power from burning fuel that must be
hauled in, a situation he apparently hopes to ameliorate by
criticizing anyone who's done better.

Wayne


You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and
raised in San Diego.

Second, I can and have outlined my energy use for for all resources.

The assumptions you make are the fiction. You do not know what your
system does. You copied a design and when it failed to work you doubled
the solar and wind input.

Ok Wayne, we will try again.

I have on several occasions posted my entire energy use. Accounting for
every fuel and source of energy, laid out by the day, week, month and
year.


Apparently you believe that "accounting" for energy production is
somehow better than actually producing energy. Let's see how that
works - 1kWhr is about enough to power a contractor grade table for 40
minutes. Or it might power a homeowner-grade MIG welder for 20
minutes. Still, that level of production might be sufficient for a
putterer, except that in your case, you'd still need a five times
larger inverter, and would then have to run the generator to power the
house, having exhausted the day's production in but minutes of shop
use.

Being able to account for energy use is simply the result of knowing
what you are doing.

A "putterer" is one who claims he can use a MIG welder in both
directions. Please note Wayne that the direction to run a MIG torch is
in the direction of the gas flow. A MIG torch is not, as you seem to
think, a hot melt glue gun.

A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial
Steel" So what's your ticket.

My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no
connection between them.

My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen
set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw.

Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what?

So, yes I can account for my entire energy use.

Is this important? Yes.

Why?

Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't
know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what
you are doing.




I am able to do so because I: 1) designed my system to meet my needs,
and 2) monitor my system.


Doing without, and getting the bulk of your energy from fuel that must
be bought and hauled, isn't anything to be proud of for someone who
claims to be a professional. I can't count the number of amateurs I
know who've done better.


OTOH you have failed to be able to define your two days of autonomy (at
the also nondisclosed reduced level of use) let alone what your energy
use is for everything.


As I've said many times, I will *never* write anything you demand.

Tell the truth Wayne, you can't post what you don't know.


The truth is that no one in their right mind would or indeed should take
advice from a person who can not define some thing as simple as days of
autonomy.


I've answered hundreds of emails from folks who are considering making
the move to off-grid, and are curious to hear how that's worked out
from someone who's already done it. The fact that I won't play along
here under the pretense that you're an expert probably won't have much
affect on their level of interest one way or another.

God help them.



You have no idea, have never had an idea, will never have an idea what
your system uses or produces. Let alone define your entire energy use
for all applications.


My setup provides virtually all the energy to power a "normally"
equipped home. *That* is the part I find useful, not diddling with
spreadsheets to "prove" something to a quack.


Yet you claim tens years experiance.


I *have* ten years experience. You've read from a respected regular
that nothing is misrepresented. Your habit of denying the undeniable
has made you a laughing stock.

So you claim.

Nothing is represented.

Which is just
half as long as I have been off grid.


Living off a propane and generator based system with a tiny solar
supplement for all those years is only proof that you're satisfied to
do something poorly for much longer than most. Living in a hot climate
while claiming to be a master fabricator, yet failing after 20 years
to build a simple solar water heating system is pathetic. Even so, no
one would bother to call you on that feebleness except for the fact
that you repeatedly indulge in gratuitous insults.

Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do
not have yet is the parbolic system.

Hence the warning about your advice. The warning stands as valid.


What "stands" is your boneheaded insistence on making a fool of
yourself.

Now, do you have *anything* to say about off-grid workshops? No, I
didn't think so.

Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the
people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at
best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not
Wayne's needs or George's needs.

My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads
because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an
eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW
system on site in two days.

As most of my solar work is on site what good would a huge solar power
system at home do me. Can't drag that around with me can I?

As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps
five hours a month.

The reason I have the generator is because I bought it to build the
house. It is still serviceable and portable.

No Wayne your nonsense is just that. Nonsense.

You and I both run what we need to run.

The difference is that I do it by design and know what goes in and out.
I know I have five days autonomy at my daily load

You built a system then doubled the solar and wind to make it work and
still don't know why. You think you have two days autonomy at some airy
fairy reduced load.

The warning about your advice still stands as valid.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Okay, I can see that you've made up your mind based on faulty
premises, and don't want to be confused with the real facts...

I have several copies of Microsloth Outleak Exploder, and two
legally licensed copies of full Outlook that came with Microsoft
Office. I've tried using them. They are both the biggest pieces of
non-intuitive crap software to ever be shipped out of Redmond WA, and
they've never really fixed it.

Agent may be "a piece of junk" in your misguided opinion, but at
least it is designed to do it's job and it does it well. And when
updates are needed, the programmers make them rapidly. And all the
default settings for Agent are correct out of the box, it won't do
anything stupid unless you change the options and tell it to.

As the "defacto" software that comes pre-installed on the computer
for the sheeple who can't be bothered to find anything better, MSOE is
a virus and trojan exploit magnet for all the skript kiddies out there
trying to hack into other peoples' systems. As an example, I offer
the "Preview Pane" that would cheerfully run any binary that appeared
there, including executable programs... You have to go manually make
sure that option is turned off before allowing the program anywhere
near the Net.

And MSOE helpfully self-destructs on a regular basis - if your news
server ever has problems where it loses it's spool hard drive and even
once reports "this newsgroup does not exist", Outlook Express
cheerfully deletes all your newsgroups and all the saved messages from
the local computer hard drive. If the news server says the group
does not exist anymore it /must/ be true, it can't be a momentarily
hosed server.

Go try a few other programs before you keep praising MSOE. You
might be surprised that there are other good coders out there.

And if you have nothing else constructive to offer on the subject in
response, I'll stop poking the troll here and gladly let you have the
last word. And you can wander off and check the stock ticker to see
how your Microsoft stock is doing.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

I have noticed a few things about this.
1) I tried Agent for a month or so and it feels like running a MSDos
programme, primitive and non-intuitive. I am not willing to pay for this
functionality. OE is free without hacking.

2) The people that seem to always have problems with threading or posting
readability are almost always Agent users. For posting binaries it is a much
better machine, I am sure.

3) I have never had a virus scanner installed on my system in the 20 odd
years I have been using MS op-systems. I have used a virus scanner the odd
time but never required a full time scanner and the targetabilty is only
because the results could be seen with such a popular browser. Once Agent
becames more popular it will become a target also.

4) no browser I have ever heard of or seen support bottom posting. They all
separate the p[osted text from the posted header. Threading browsers have
made the top down posting style obsolete in the 80s. Who ever puts their
attachments of previous posts before their text. Do you do this in an email?
The previous posts are all in the thread and available to anybody wanted to
review the previous posts. The arguments for bottom posting are all moot.

Other than that, thanx for your polite information.

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

Okay, I can see that you've made up your mind based on faulty
premises, and don't want to be confused with the real facts...

I have several copies of Microsloth Outleak Exploder, and two
legally licensed copies of full Outlook that came with Microsoft
Office. I've tried using them. They are both the biggest pieces of
non-intuitive crap software to ever be shipped out of Redmond WA, and
they've never really fixed it.

Agent may be "a piece of junk" in your misguided opinion, but at
least it is designed to do it's job and it does it well. And when
updates are needed, the programmers make them rapidly. And all the
default settings for Agent are correct out of the box, it won't do
anything stupid unless you change the options and tell it to.

As the "defacto" software that comes pre-installed on the computer
for the sheeple who can't be bothered to find anything better, MSOE is
a virus and trojan exploit magnet for all the skript kiddies out there
trying to hack into other peoples' systems. As an example, I offer
the "Preview Pane" that would cheerfully run any binary that appeared
there, including executable programs... You have to go manually make
sure that option is turned off before allowing the program anywhere
near the Net.

And MSOE helpfully self-destructs on a regular basis - if your news
server ever has problems where it loses it's spool hard drive and even
once reports "this newsgroup does not exist", Outlook Express
cheerfully deletes all your newsgroups and all the saved messages from
the local computer hard drive. If the news server says the group
does not exist anymore it /must/ be true, it can't be a momentarily
hosed server.

Go try a few other programs before you keep praising MSOE. You
might be surprised that there are other good coders out there.

And if you have nothing else constructive to offer on the subject in
response, I'll stop poking the troll here and gladly let you have the
last word. And you can wander off and check the stock ticker to see
how your Microsoft stock is doing.

-- Bruce --
--
Bruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop
Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700
5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545
Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net.

John P Bengi expostulated:

| Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the
| headers and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent
| supports this bottom posting garbage idea.

With a little help from a package called "quote-fix", this is how OE
can deal with that challenge. It's available free at
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/.

One of the things that I've liked about it is that it displays each
person's quoted text in a different color, to make it easier to follow
interspersed comments.

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:02:08 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

F. George McDuffee writes:
Several people have indicated the Current Accounts Ballance of
Payments [trade] deficit was meaningless.

Among other problems, accumulation of U.S. dollars allows the
purchase of U.S. companies, and the transfer of U.S. jobs. See
Reuters article below for details of how the jobs at Maytag were
traded for cheap imports. Another example is the sale by IBM of
their line of personal computers.

And the doomsayers were saying this about Japan when a Japanese
businessman bought pebble beach in the 80's. He
subsequently sold it back to an American consoritium for a
significant loss.

It's probably still there, in one form or another.
Plants get closed & the name brand is now another imported
product. Often of an unknown quality.
--
Cliff

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 07:50:58 -0700, F. George McDuffee
wrote:


Second problem is that this gives the Chinese an opening wedge
into the U.S. major appliance market with an existing brand and
dealer network, directly threatening #1 Whirlpool with all the
jobs and local taxes revenue they represent.

IIRC Whirlpool is already in big trouble.
--
Cliff

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:23:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Then read the previous post. What were you doing reading the response to
nothing first?

You bottom posters are nuts and fanatics over something that went out in the
80s since threading browsers.

Keep your damn headers with the text.

When you get a browser that actually supports bottom posting I will join
you. Until then **** off with your trolling.

What was this about?
--
Cliff

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.

What was this about?
--
Cliff

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Really? Now let's see you answer this post without separating the headers
and the text and yet still bottom post. Show me how Agent supports this
bottom posting garbage idea.

What are you going on about NOW?
--
Cliff

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 23:15:41 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi
(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try to attach your previous posts at the bottom while you are at it
like you do in your emails you send.

HUH?

Is the techincal term for that "forwarding"?

You must have a LOT of problems with that pile of
junk indeed.

BTW, Why add "OT" Twice? Did Outbreak distress
MAKE you do it?
--
Cliff

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote in message

Okay, I can see that you've made up your mind based on faulty
premises, and don't want to be confused with the real facts...

You know, you're right. A Windows computer can suffer from all the problems
you've listed. But, it appears you're just another Neanderthal that doesn't
have the wherewithal to properly configure a Windows computer against all
the problems you've listed.

My Windows computer doesn't suffer from *any* of the problems you've listed.
For the most part, I use and like many Windows programs as well as a number
of others. And no, I don't own any Microsoft stock or have any great
appreciation for Bill Gates. And yes, on frequent occasion I'm exposed to
and use other Operating Systems such as Linux. (Mandrake version)

So screw off and climb back into your hole. I'm not the least interested in
hearing you WHINE about your incapability's when it comes to Windows.