Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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  #221   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 07:18 PM
Upscale
 
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"Cliff" wrote in message

I suspect that one day they will do automatic online
updates ... and error reports via Email back to MS.


You can already configure it to update automatically. Most people don't like
that including myself. It's tantamount to turning almost complete control of
your computer over to someone else. (or some company).

I equate that to pre-authorized chequing which I monitor very closely. For
the most part, it works out ok, but for the times when your account is
debited for something without your permission. And then comes the time when
you've terminated all purchases from a company, but they continue to debit
your account.



  #222   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 09:57 PM
Charlie Self
 
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Upscale wrote:

I equate that to pre-authorized chequing which I monitor very closely. For
the most part, it works out ok, but for the times when your account is
debited for something without your permission. And then comes the time when
you've terminated all purchases from a company, but they continue to debit
your account.


Had one of those, once. They billed and refused to credit 14 days after
I closed it down, and told me it "might" happen again. I closed the
account an hour later and threatened to sue them for the payment. I
didn't get the money back, but they sure as hell didn't get anything
else from me, nor will they ever.

  #223   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 11:22 PM
John P Bengi
 
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M II strikes again!

"Wall" wrote in message
news:[email protected] eranews...
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:24:36 -0400, "John P Bengi" JBengi

(spamm)@(spamm) yahoo,com wrote:

Try a normal browser like OE and get rid of that piece of junk Agent.


What was this about?


oh , just the Gymmy Bob / Bengi / pizza Girl / Larry Lixxx troll getting

his jollies again !
Thank phuck the Globe does not rely on the types that follow this jerks

posts to
generate any interest in RE - bunch of dim witted morons, at best!!

mutter mutter ......******s!





  #224   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 11:30 PM
John P Bengi
 
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BTW Cliff:
Most of that other thread was not my postings. It was a super troll we have
been trying to demolish for the last 6 months on a few groups. He doesn't
like the vcomplaints to his ISP and News providers so he forges my nickname
and treis to libel me in any group I visit.

His last known commonly used name is Bunty Jeck. Previously known as Aunty
Jack, Eunty JEck, Gymmy Bob, nunja, M II, Taz, Tez, Tbz, [email protected], Troll killer
and over 300 incarnations of those basic ones over the last year. Very
mentally ill (OCD) individual in bed with Wayne and M II here or the same
person.

Sorry for the confusion but I gave up on that thread. I only post from
golden.net. Check the headers


"Cliff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 16:02:08 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

F. George McDuffee writes:
Several people have indicated the Current Accounts Ballance of
Payments [trade] deficit was meaningless.

Among other problems, accumulation of U.S. dollars allows the
purchase of U.S. companies, and the transfer of U.S. jobs. See
Reuters article below for details of how the jobs at Maytag were
traded for cheap imports. Another example is the sale by IBM of
their line of personal computers.


And the doomsayers were saying this about Japan when a Japanese
businessman bought pebble beach in the 80's. He
subsequently sold it back to an American consoritium for a
significant loss.


It's probably still there, in one form or another.
Plants get closed & the name brand is now another imported
product. Often of an unknown quality.
--
Cliff



  #225   Report Post  
Old June 23rd 05, 11:39 PM
Morris Dovey
 
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F. George McDuffee expostulated:

| It would be interesting to know how much in deductions the
| corporation took on their tax returns over the last 5 or 10 years
| for market research and product R&D. Article in Wed. June 22 WSJ
| discusses shift in consumer priorities for major appliances from
| stolid dependability to flash and glitz, which may help explain
| why the "dependability people" are now in deep do-do.

It's probably worthwhile to take note of the fact that I'm not a
"Maytag Expert" and that I can't provide very much more than firsthand
observations (that may or may not be safe to use as the basis for
generalizations) and inexpert opinion - garnered while working as a
software consultant with their R&D group. Since all of the products
under development of which I had knowledge have been announced and/or
shipped, I'm free to speak openly.

On the R&D side, Maytag has extraordinarily competent engineers and
researchers who're as enthusiastic and eager as any I've ever seen
elsewhere. There aren't many of them - and they seemed much
under-appreciated by their management. My thought was (and remains)
that any of Maytag's competitors could ruin the firm simply by
offering this one engineering group an industry competive wage and
management guaranteed to provide genuine appreciation of past and
future accomplishments. With careful research, a competitor could
simultaneously put Maytag's future in grave jeopardy and greatly
enhance their own prospects for as little as $500K/year. In my mind,
for a Fortune 300 company this is tantamount to gross negligence on
the part of management.

| On the other hand, flash and glitz are only skin deep, and how
| much can it cost and how long can it take to have a design studio
| "re-skin" a washer or drier, and how much can it cost to shoot
| metal flake paint in place of white? As an aside, the American
| people deserve what they get on this one..

Flash and glitz /are/ cheap and easy. Solid dependability and quality
of function are more difficult and generally expensive to achieve - no
surprises here. My task as a consultant was to provide a technical
solution that was expected to drasticly reduce that expense. I
provided the requested solution (which incorporated solutions to the
usual variety of unanticipated side issues) and to the best of my
knowlege, that package was shelved because it required a degree of
interdepartmental cooperation/communication that too many of the
first-line development managers weren't prepared to exercise.
(Bummer!)

A related issue had to do with more than healthy managerial resistance
to technology more advanced than a motor-driven cycle controller -
even after their horizontal-axis (front loading) Neptune washer had
provided proof positive that micros are here to stay! I was by
definition a "short timer" and that attitude was grindingly
frustrating to me. I don't want to think about how frustrating it has
to be for the R&D folks who're intending to stay with Maytag for the
long haul...

| In response to another reply, the questions about the likely
| outcomes for senior management were rhetorical, although your
| detailed answers were insightful. This helps explain the
| "shortage" of engineers and the rapidly declining number of
| engineering students. Even the "nerdest" engineer can look
| up/around and see that while they (and the rest of the "product"
| people) are taking it in the shorts big time, management and
| finance are riding off with full boodle bags. While both groups
| will have some time off, for the product people it will be a mad
| scramble for another job so they can keep the house and the car,
| while the management and finance people are resting in Cancun.
|
| Do you happen to know if the Maytag pension plans are fully
| funded, or is this another "debt bomb" that will be lobbed into
| the PBGC? How about medical care for current retirees? Off
| Maytag and onto the taxpayers through Medicare?

I don't know. Actually, I didn't pay much attention to anything
unrelated to R&D and/or some specific product development. I sat
through (too many) meetings and took notice of what was being said
about the technology and politics involved with getting the
vertical-axis (top loading) Neptune product working and out the door -
and the implementation of a methodology to streamline development of
all future cycle-based "whiteware".

| We need something more than biased B-school case studies. What do
| you think of an economic/financial equivalent to the NTSB that
| would investigate major corporate "crash and burn" cases? These
| could well be a job for Dr. Kavorikan and not a "crash-cart" and
| life-support situation.
|
| In the aggregate the major loss/damage caused by not only Maytag,
| but also Enron, Tyco, Ford, EMC, Delta, American, etc., etc., is
| a total loss of confidence in the competence and motives of
| management by not only their employees, but the majority of
| stockholders and the American people.

I'd encourage you to make an at least internal distinction between
failures resulting from fundamental dishonesty with intent to
defraud - and failures resulting from stupidity, lack of due
diligence, etc. on the part of fundamentally well-intentioned people.
If I were to choose a single cause for Maytag's failure to thrive
(which would be a huge over-simplification), that cause would be the
selection of a succession of CEO's who lacked the wisdom to define
success and to lead their people in that direction.

Your summary is basically true; but would you really expect that a
government agency /could/ do more than throw good money after bad in
these cases? If so, you're far more optimistic than I'd dare to be.

One final comment. One of my first questions after starting work at
Maytag (and I did ask every single person I worked with) was: "What
does it take to make dirty clothes clean?". What I was after were
things like how much water per pound of clothes during wash and rinse,
how much agitation, how much cleaning agent, etc. with some kind of
mathematical relationships and some numbers. No one knew! I was (and
still am) dumbfounded that no one at Maytag had ever made a serious
effort to define in engineering terms what it takes to make clothes
clean. Think about the implications of that tidbit as you ponder
business failure causes...

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/




  #226   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 12:52 AM
JohnM
 
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Cliff wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 06:59:33 -0400, JohnM wrote:


Cliff wrote:

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 15:14:16 -0500, Scott Willing
wrote:



The argument is that posts get separated from their threads for a
multitude of reasons


Only quote the specific bits that you are responding directly to.
You need the context but not the rest.


I seem to remember you snipping my posts in order to alter the context..

John



John,
I don't think so (but it's possible). Sometimes, with a few
others, I only reply to a slight snippet (see jb & Gunner & crew)
with a sharp poke G.


You go back and look at the thread where we disagreed over the atomic
bombing of the Japanese cities and you'll see where I accused you of
cutting what I said, resulting in an altered context.


For most the subject (or a specific subset of it), not the
author, is the subject (whoops .. a tautology?)

Usually I quote the specific bit I'm responding to (for the
proper context). I like SHORT, easy-on-the-reader posts,
little forced scrolling to find the context, and brevity, usually.

Some of the others like huge essays .... but I find that a
few well placed words usually do most of the time.


I find your few, well placed words to often sound like you haven't
thought of anything constructive. "Winger!, WMD's!", etc. Maybe the
readers you prefer need it kept simple?

One may also usually assume that the reader recently read the
prior full post that the reply is in response to.


I don't believe that to be a safe assumption. You go through a thread on
a day and you see the posts between then and the last time you looked.
There may be responses to something you read three days ago, twenty
lines up the thread. There's usually a middle ground between giving
enough information about what you're responding to that you're showing
consideration for your readers and cutting enough to not waste people's
time. Myself, I prefer to err on the side of too much information.

John
  #227   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 05:39 AM
Gunner
 
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On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 13:01:24 -0400, "Upscale"
wrote:

"Gunner" wrote in message
V
their mode of operation. It was you that made the blanket statement
that Agent was Junk, was it not?


No was NOT. I use agent for downloading binaries. If you're going to play
the asshole, at least try to respond with the knowledge that you have your
facts straight.

Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I
wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more
interesting.


Been looking in the mirror again asshole? Hell, you're too stupid to even
follow a thread properly. I damn well know for sure that you're incapable of
searching out parts of previous threads or you'd have quoted what you're
replying to like any normal person.

Bye ****wit.

plink

Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner
  #228   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 08:25 AM
Upscale
 
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"Gunner" wrote in message
Bye ****wit.


Now my participation visa vis you in this thread is finished. If I
wish to argue with a ****wit, Ill do so with one I find more
interesting.


Funny, you already said goodbye one and you've doing it again. Must be that
low memory retention you have. Either that or you just don't know how to end
an argument.


  #229   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 09:39 AM
George Ghio
 
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wmbjk wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 10:08:57 +1000, George Ghio
wrote:


You can't get anything right can you. First, I am an American. Born and
raised in San Diego.



Yes, I know, and we're grateful that you moved. If only Mars would
offer the type of retraining that you seem so fond of.


IF, as you say you know then you have told another lie when you claimed
I was an aussi.


A "putterer" does not hold a ticket for "Unlimited Thickness Structuial
Steel"



I don't see why not. There are plenty of ticket holders out there who
can't earn a decent living at their trade. Some of them can't do any
better than scabbing together rusty crap for cheap customers, and then
complaining about the experience on Usenet. Sound familiar?


So you have no ticket. But then there is no ticket for glue guns is there?


My work shop use has no effect on the house system as there is no
connection between them.



So a "design" is only required for homes? But I remember you writing
about doing laundry and vacuuming on generator power, concurrent with
shop use. Perhaps that's a wireless connection...


My fuel use is, Petrol, 20 L per fortnight(14 days) This runs the Gen
set of course, also the tractor, motorcycle and chainsaw.



Hmm... farther along in your post you mention 5 hours per month
welding, accounting for 10 liters per fortnight. Let's allow 3 hours
per week for laundry alone, say an addtional 12 liters per fortnight.
No need to calculate anything beyond that, as your tractor, motorcycle
and chainsaw are already running on magic bean fumes. Perhaps I was
too charitable using your own numbers to tally 15 tons of fuel hauling
so far.


Ah, your lack of numbers shines through again, can you tie your own shoe
laces? Walk and chew gum at the same time?

Let's allow 1 hour for the laundry per week. Something less than a litre


Yes I use wood and propane in the house. So what?



The "what" is that 1. while giving new meaning to the definition of
spartan, and claiming to be a professional, you've spent more and
accomplished less than many amateurs, and 2. - you insist on
criticizing those who've done better, particularly if they point out
your blunders.


Spartan? Hardly. And if you mean done "better" as in microwave,
dishwasher, bread machine, widescreen TV etc. Then the only thing you
have done better than me is to employ a dozen more Chinese than me.

You are a born consumer.




So, yes I can account for my entire energy use.

Is this important? Yes.

Why?

Because if you dont know what is going in or what is going out you don't
know what your system is doing. Which is really just not knowing what
you are doing.



I've met many off-gridders who manage quite well despite not knowing
the difference between a Watt and a gallon. They tend to get the idea
pretty quickly - batteries dead, must have used too much, and after a
while they develop a feel for what they can run. Call it what you
like, but lots of them get a much higher proportion of their energy
from solar than you do.


Ah well, you see I do have a simple solar hot water system. What I do
not have yet is the parbolic system.



That's an amazingly lame excuse, although I suppose it's a step in the
right direction that you're finally admitting the wisdom of taking
advantage of the sun. Duh! But 20 years to do a three-day project? And
given your previous comments on how you've "never seen a working
tracker", why would you use a parabolic collector? Anyway, let me know
when it's finished. I'll get a day pass from the old folks home, and
drive down in my Moller Skycar for the dedication ceremony.


What an imagination.


Off grid workshops, as I have said already, are as indivdual as the
people who use them. Asking for advice, which can only be generic at
best, is fine but in the end the workshop must meet your needs, not
Wayne's needs or George's needs.



Several of the regulars here who you've criticized bitterly have
systems that meet their needs. Why is it that meeting one's needs is
only a measurement of success in your own case?


No Wayne, the point is not that your system works but that you have no
idea why or how. I too know lots of people who have built systems
without knowing what they were doing. Their advice is as worthless as
yours when it comes to design. For the same reasons.


My most commonly used tool is a drill. I use battery drills with leads
because they are readily avaliable. I have six at the moment. With an
eighteen A/hour gell cell and two battery drills I can install a 5kW
system on site in two days.



Very impressive. I probably spent more time than that running conduit
for a 2kW system. Additional days for battery box, venting, inverter
mounting, and wire pulling, not to mention trenching, concrete, etc.
But equipped with that six pack of corded cordless drills, at your
rate the whole job could have been done in 8 tenths of a single day.
Man, them drills must be smokin'!


My point exactly, you couldn't organise a fart on a bean farm. Which
explains how you built your house. Just hire a swag of contractors then
claim to have done it yourself.



As for my welder, why build a system big enough to run it for perhaps
five hours a month.



To name just a few - to save 1200 hours of generator time and 1200
gallons of fuel, to have the capacity to run all the other loads that
are over a few hundred Watts, to demonstrate that as a successful
"solar power consultant" you needn't take the same road as broke
amateurs... But other than those, no reasons at all.


Why do you try to tout lifestyle as design? While the two go together
they are not the same thing. I don't give a two hoots about your
lifestyle but I do think it's a hoot that you can't define two days autonomy


The warning about your advice still stands as valid.



You might print out the warning and one of your spreadsheets, and take
them along with all your unused cordless drill chargers to the propane
supplier, and see how much of a discount they'll give you. Then report
back after another 20 years on the economics of "designing" a "solar"
home that 95% fuel powered.


Funny thing, I don't own a single cordless drill charger. Last year at
the Bedigo swap I found a nice cordless drill, the full kit. The guy
wanted $15, I offered ten, he said ok, so I put the drill in my bag.

As I started to leave he said, pointing at the case with the battery and
charger, "Don't you want the rest of it?"

I said "Why" and left.

LIFESTYLE. You don't have a clue.

My lifestyle is great.

You think your lifestyle is great.

The difference is that I know how my system works, I know what goes in
and what comes out. I know all my energy use, you can't even work out a
piddling two days autonomy. With or without the undecided reduced load.

Why should anyone in their right mind take advice from you?


The warning stands as valid.

  #230   Report Post  
Old June 24th 05, 11:11 AM
George Ghio
 
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Oh Yeah

Another one of your lies Wayne. Where did I ever say that anything was
better, or worse, than solar for hot water.


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