I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want to
run by the "design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

Your biggest hassles will be legal ones. Find out first if (a)
the electric brakes will still satisfy the authorities, (b) if the
registration change from "Horse" to "Equipment" will present any
problems, and (c) if the insurance company will insure it after it's
rebuilt. You don't want to spend time and money building instead of
buying if the whole thing is going to be a nightmare. I sure miss the
good old days...

Dan

On 17 May 2005 10:23:04 -0700, wrote:

Your biggest hassles will be legal ones. Find out first if (a)
the electric brakes will still satisfy the authorities, (b) if the
registration change from "Horse" to "Equipment" will present any
problems, and (c) if the insurance company will insure it after it's
rebuilt. You don't want to spend time and money building instead of
buying if the whole thing is going to be a nightmare. I sure miss the
good old days...

Don't know about your State(s), but this is no problem in MN. Just go
to the local DMV office and tell them you want to register a
home-built trailer. Lotsa folks build trailers! I brought a photo
of mine but they didn't even want to see that. They just asked how it
cost to build, told me how much they wanted, and gave me the plate and
sticker. They don't even use plates anymore in MN, just a permanent
sticker.

I don't think they ask about brakes. Brakes are required on
trailers hauling over 1500 lb in MN, but nobody checks unless there's
an accident or a trooper sees an obvously-overloaded trailer on the
road.

As regards insurance, why would you insure a $300 trailer? You
already have liability coverage with your auto insurance.

A horse trailer should make a good starter for what you want. They are
build to haul some heavy, concetrated, and spookable loads. (At least
your mill doesn't go nuts when it is placed next to a snake!)

You may find that the frame is not as robust as you would think: The
body on most of these is quite stiff, adds to the overall strength.

Registration should not be an issue: around here these have the
designation as "utility trailer", no way to tell what body is on it. The
ID marks are on the frame.

Many automobile insurance policies cover your vehicle and anything you
tow for liability. Check with your agent.

Grant Erwin wrote:
I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I
want to
run by the "design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

I just saw what you want today, the guy had 3 hoops made of "I" beam with a
hoist beam down the center, and extending out back about 3 feet. He had a
chain fall on it, and was delivering a "Vacuum cleaner/air pump" to a gas
station. It was mounted an a small trailer with a counter weight on the
front. No reason you couldn't scale it up to move 2500lbs.
gary



"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can
move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want
to He had a chain fall on it, and was delevering a run by the "design
review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have
electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Gary Owens wrote:
I just saw what you want today, the guy had 3 hoops made of "I" beam with a
hoist beam down the center, and extending out back about 3 feet. He had a
chain fall on it, and was delivering a "Vacuum cleaner/air pump" to a gas
station. It was mounted an a small trailer with a counter weight on the
front. No reason you couldn't scale it up to move 2500lbs.
gary



"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can
move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want
to He had a chain fall on it, and was delevering a run by the "design
review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have
electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

wrote:

Your biggest hassles will be legal ones. Find out first if (a)
the electric brakes will still satisfy the authorities, (b) if the
registration change from "Horse" to "Equipment" will present any
problems, and (c) if the insurance company will insure it after it's
rebuilt. You don't want to spend time and money building instead of
buying if the whole thing is going to be a nightmare. I sure miss the
good old days...

Any trailer capabie of hauling 2500 pounds or more in Washington State
has to have electric brakes by law, although many don't. Insurance companies
don't insure trailers, they insure the vehicle that pulls them, that's why
trailers make more sense for HSMers.

I play poker with a Washington State trooper sometimes, and he tells me
*exactly* what the sergeant at the office that will inspect and license my
trailer will look for. Actually, your questions are very valid, but I believe
I'm on solid ground here.

GWE

Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

Saw a somewhat similar setup once. About an 18' flatbed type trailer
that had several framed "hoops" (not bent, just welded square)
supporting an I beam down the middle and out the back a few feet. Small
chain hoist on a trolley. The rest of the trailer was outfitted with
storage for several large coils of AL stock and a forming rig for
seamless gutters.

Pete C.

On Tue, 17 May 2005 10:18:35 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want to
run by the "design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?


You will have to beef up the frame for this to work.

If you go and look at one you will soon see that if you rip the body
off all that will be left is some 2 1/2" or 3" leg angle iron for the
frame. The main part of the load is taken up by the body on these type
trailers.

Wayne Cook
Shamrock, TX
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/waynecook

On Tue, 17 May 2005 10:18:35 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want to
run by the "design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

Dad built one a long time ago for local delivery of levee rollers,
about 4500 lb of concrete spool and angle frame. It was short with a
very heavy angle frame, pivoting bed, and comealong for winching the
roller on and the bed down. The bed locked to the tongue / frame with
a very substantial clevis pin. He used an old truck axle and tires
for the load. It would be more difficult to load and unload a machine
tool, but a piece of cake with a forklift. The back was open. We
chained and boomed down the roller once aboard.

Pete Keillor

On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:32:27 -0500, Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX


Pretty common out here in California for septic tank installers as
well as poor boy machine tool movers. I know of one sitting unused
right now in Van Nuys California a guy could get fairly cheaply. I
think it needs engine work. Shrug.

Gunner

Gary Owens wrote:
I just saw what you want today, the guy had 3 hoops made of "I" beam with a
hoist beam down the center, and extending out back about 3 feet. He had a
chain fall on it, and was delivering a "Vacuum cleaner/air pump" to a gas
station. It was mounted an a small trailer with a counter weight on the
front. No reason you couldn't scale it up to move 2500lbs.
gary



"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can
move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want
to He had a chain fall on it, and was delevering a run by the "design
review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have
electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE




"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:32:27 -0500, the inscrutable Rex B
spake:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops

Sumpin' like this, no doubt?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43456,43407


I agree; that horse trailer idea sounds interesting.


------------------------------------------
Do the voices in my head bother you?
------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Full-Service Web Development

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:32:27 -0500, Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX


Pretty common out here in California for septic tank installers as
well as poor boy machine tool movers. I know of one sitting unused
right now in Van Nuys California a guy could get fairly cheaply. I
think it needs engine work. Shrug.

I believe he is looking at trailers since they don't require extra
insurance and are cheap on taxes.

Pete C.

Grant Erwin wrote:

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I
want to
run by the "design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE
Sounds like a winner to me.
On the road means secure loading. Mechanical linkage of frame to axles is important...

Martin - thinking of something like that myself.

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

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Pete C. wrote:

Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?


Saw a somewhat similar setup once. About an 18' flatbed type trailer
that had several framed "hoops" (not bent, just welded square)
supporting an I beam down the middle and out the back a few feet. Small
chain hoist on a trolley. The rest of the trailer was outfitted with
storage for several large coils of AL stock and a forming rig for
seamless gutters.

Pete C.
I think the best trailer of a remake type would be a Telephone or Power company trailer.
Sometimes these are available during the burning of the troupes in the power company
supplier and transmitter transformation. I know a number of PG&E boom trucks that
are now in tree service and saw one as an independent telephone/electric installer.

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Larry Jaques wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:32:27 -0500, the inscrutable Rex B
spake:


I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops


Sumpin' like this, no doubt?
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...=1,43456,43407


I agree; that horse trailer idea sounds interesting.


------------------------------------------
Do the voices in my head bother you?
------------------------------------------
http://diversify.com Full-Service Web Development
Yea - Gunner could make one on the BIG shaper - then add Hydraulics to it...
Or maybe explosion form the beams. :-)

Martin

--
Martin Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Wed, 18 May 2005 02:05:15 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Gunner wrote:

On Tue, 17 May 2005 14:32:27 -0500, Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX


Pretty common out here in California for septic tank installers as
well as poor boy machine tool movers. I know of one sitting unused
right now in Van Nuys California a guy could get fairly cheaply. I
think it needs engine work. Shrug.

I believe he is looking at trailers since they don't require extra
insurance and are cheap on taxes.

Pete C.

Cut the cab off, put on a tongue, and you have a trailer

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years,
the world has a long way to go to regain
its credibility and reputation with the US."
unknown

"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...
| I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
| sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then, I've
been
| trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that can
move
| any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I want
to
| run by the "design review" board here :-)
|
| My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and build
| a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I do see
| them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have
electric
| brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
| pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have room
| for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington State
ferry
| boat, so shorter is better.
|
| What do you guys think?
|
| GWE

Grant, have you looked at mobile/manufactured (new term nowadays!)
axles? Stout as hell, plentiful as sin, and dirt cheap. 'Lectric brakes,
too. Some time after the home is set up, the axles aren't needed, so folks
either pull them on the spot or let someone else round them up. Don't know
who to call, but someplace that does mobile homes and offices ought to be
able to tell you.

Your state trooper probably told you this, but keep your receipts and
cultivate an acquaintance with someone that can weigh the trailer and
give you a statement of its weight. Also check what it will cost for
licensing. I have a trailer that I built and got registered, but it is
not not licensed. It costs more for a license than for the license of
a pickup truck.


Dan

wrote:
Your state trooper probably told you this, but keep your receipts and
cultivate an acquaintance with someone that can weigh the trailer and
give you a statement of its weight. Also check what it will cost for
licensing. I have a trailer that I built and got registered, but it is
not not licensed. It costs more for a license than for the license of
a pickup truck.

Actually, Dan, I'm thinking of buying an actual horse trailer which would
have a title and license plate already, one which I could just transfer
the title and buy tabs normally without *any* inspections. I don't believe
I'd incur any requirement to get it reinspected solely by modifying the
trailer's superstructure, either.

When Wayne Cook seconded the idea that the body adds a bunch of the strength
I started to have second thoughts. For sure you'd get a tongue, two axles
with wheels and electric brakes, and a title, tabs and plate, which is not
a bad place to start, but if I had to remanufacture the entire frame it
would be a bigger job than just cutting off the body and welding on a bed.

Are you saying that the tabs for your trailer are more expensive than the
tabs for a pickup truck?

Grant

Piece of cake on equipment like this:

http://www.bendtec.com/cold.html

but the BIG stuff goes through the hot bender:
http://www.bendtec.com/induct.html

The big unit handles 66 INCH diameter, 6 INCH wall. Lets see, 4650
pounds per foot.

Rex B wrote:

I'd like to watch while you bend those I-Beam hoops
Sounds interesting though. Chainfall on a trolley, with some sort of
stop at the back?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

Gary Owens wrote:

I just saw what you want today, the guy had 3 hoops made of "I" beam
with a hoist beam down the center, and extending out back about 3
feet. He had a chain fall on it, and was delivering a "Vacuum
cleaner/air pump" to a gas station. It was mounted an a small trailer
with a counter weight on the front. No reason you couldn't scale it up
to move 2500lbs.
gary



"Grant Erwin" wrote in message
...

I sold my boom truck awhile ago when I realized it just didn't make
economic
sense because the insurance costs were eating me alive. Since then,
I've been
trying to think of a reasonable way to come up with something that
can move
any of my machines (top weight about 2500#). I have a concept that I
want to He had a chain fall on it, and was delevering a run by the
"design review" board here :-)

My idea is to buy a junker 2-horse trailer, rip the body off it and
build
a bed for it. My reasoning is there are tons of these around, and I
do see
them occasionally for under $300. They have 2 axles, and many have
electric
brakes. The frames are usually quite substantial, but the trailers are
pretty short. I don't want a long car-hauler type trailer, don't have
room
for it, plus up here you pay by length when you go on a Washington
State ferry
boat, so shorter is better.

What do you guys think?

GWE

When I had my trailer inspected, the trooper said that if I modified
it so that it changed the weight it would have to be reinspected. So
if you had a boat trailer and changed it to a utility trailer, it would
be the same as a new built homemade trailer. Ditto horse trailer to
utility trailer.

When I registered my trailer, I think the license fee was something
like $15. But a year ago the renewal came and they wanted something
like $40. Not huge but enough to make me wait until I really need to
have it licensed.


Dan

On Wed, 18 May 2005 08:56:58 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

wrote:
Your state trooper probably told you this, but keep your receipts and
cultivate an acquaintance with someone that can weigh the trailer and
give you a statement of its weight. Also check what it will cost for
licensing. I have a trailer that I built and got registered, but it is
not not licensed. It costs more for a license than for the license of
a pickup truck.

Actually, Dan, I'm thinking of buying an actual horse trailer which would
have a title and license plate already, one which I could just transfer
the title and buy tabs normally without *any* inspections. I don't believe
I'd incur any requirement to get it reinspected solely by modifying the
trailer's superstructure, either.

When Wayne Cook seconded the idea that the body adds a bunch of the strength
I started to have second thoughts. For sure you'd get a tongue, two axles
with wheels and electric brakes, and a title, tabs and plate, which is not
a bad place to start, but if I had to remanufacture the entire frame it
would be a bigger job than just cutting off the body and welding on a bed.

Are you saying that the tabs for your trailer are more expensive than the
tabs for a pickup truck?

Grant

In California, they are $25 for life. Who would have figured that for
The Land of the Fee, Home of the Slave?

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

Here in Texas it's common practice when registering a trailer to just
tell them it's "Shop Built" i.e. home made and save some hassle, VIN
recording, and (allegedly) taxes. According to the local sherrif's
deputy, that is illegal if it's a factory-built trailer. He said when
they come upon a tow rig on the highway, they shadow it long enough to
run the tag. If it comes back "Shop-Built" and it's obviously a Wells
Cargo or similar, it gets a stop, primarily to see if it's stolen.
They actually give them a day-long class and an ID book to identify
factory trailers from the various builders. There are also 5 different
places that VINs are on a trailer, some known only to law enforcement.
Trailer theft is a pretty big business.

Speaking of which, what kind of tongue-lock do you put on a trailer with
a bulldog coupler?

- -
Rex Burkheimer
WM Automotive
Fort Worth TX

wrote:
When I had my trailer inspected, the trooper said that if I modified
it so that it changed the weight it would have to be reinspected. So
if you had a boat trailer and changed it to a utility trailer, it would
be the same as a new built homemade trailer. Ditto horse trailer to
utility trailer.

When I registered my trailer, I think the license fee was something
like $15. But a year ago the renewal came and they wanted something
like $40. Not huge but enough to make me wait until I really need to
have it licensed.


Dan

"Gunner" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 May 2005 08:56:58 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

In California, they are $25 for life. Who would have figured that for
The Land of the Fee, Home of the Slave?

Gunner


Not quite. PTI plates are renewed every 5 years...Paul

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/commercial/cvra.htm#pti

On Thu, 19 May 2005 20:06:51 -0700, "PJ"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 18 May 2005 08:56:58 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

In California, they are $25 for life. Who would have figured that for
The Land of the Fee, Home of the Slave?

Gunner


Not quite. PTI plates are renewed every 5 years...Paul

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/commercial/cvra.htm#pti


No kidding? They lied to me at DMV..which of course is not
surprising.

I never got a PTI card as stated in the website, just the registration
paper.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Gunner" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 May 2005 20:06:51 -0700, "PJ"
wrote:


"Gunner" wrote in message
. ..
On Wed, 18 May 2005 08:56:58 -0700, Grant Erwin
wrote:

In California, they are $25 for life. Who would have figured that for
The Land of the Fee, Home of the Slave?

Gunner


Not quite. PTI plates are renewed every 5 years...Paul

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/commercial/cvra.htm#pti


No kidding? They lied to me at DMV..which of course is not
surprising.

I never got a PTI card as stated in the website, just the registration
paper.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire.
Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us)
off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give
them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the **** out of you
for torturing the cat." Gunner

in az, it's $15 for life. no renewals. they even dropped the annual fee for
sailboats under 20'. since i've never seen a tax go away, could have pushed
me over with a feather when i got the notice.