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  #121   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 03:11 AM
dddd
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)

Doesn't this depend upon whether you are Roman Catholic or Episcopalian? I
seem to remember this being one of the major points of difference between
the two theologies.

--
Regards,
Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com
Ebay Sales:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...ems&userid=dsc
Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen
Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution

"Ken Davey" wrote in message
...

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:03:30 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
... Of course if you don't
believe in an omnipototent God then free will is merely an illusion
and no "accidents" are preventable, they had to happen.

Sounds like ya got that backwards, John. Again.

???

"It was God's will that xxxx happened"


??? If there is no God then *everything* is predetermined. There is
no such thing as free will choice.

The condition was that God didn't exist. If He does exist then you
can't say all things are God's will since there is therefore free
choice, and the choices made may be against his will.

John

Let me get this straight.
You say that with the presence of an omnipotent god there is free will??
The 'omnipotent' part means that *everything* is a result of this god's

will
(either through action or inaction) therefore there *is* no free will in
this instance.
I think you have this all bassakwards.

Regards
Ken.





  #122   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 03:49 AM
erniegalts
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On 18 Jul 2003 23:37:50 -0700, (Jaws) wrote:

leon skunkers wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:58:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

8 dead , 45 critically injured, including many children in LA Farmers
Market Driving Spree!

Ban Cars! Register them and license their owners!

No one has a need for a deadly automobile, let alone one that will
travel in excess of 60 miles per hour with one push of the peddle!

Ban these horrible instruments of death. Every year in the US, over
40,000 people are killed by them, and hundreds of thousands more are
maimed and crippled for life!

For Gods Sake,ban them for the Children!

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli


yeah. And send your contributions to MAGOO (mothers against geezers
operating oldsmobiles). Hang up posters of the dead people all over
Florida's Fossil Riviera and get celebrities to whine about the whole
thing on TV.

Hangin' is too good for these old farts that take to the road
knowingly impaired by the ravages of age.


You'll be an "old fart" one of these days. After driving all those
years you're just going to hand over your keys. No laws saying you
have to, just decide for yourself that you're to old to drive. Give
up the vintage 1999 Corvette????? Give the old guy a little respect.
Maybe he caused an accident but he's still a human being.


The trouble with that attitude is that would have to excuse anyone for
anything, starting from Hitler, Stalin, and going on down. All were
"human beings" and all may have thought they were "doing the right
thing at the time."

Not necessarily the fault of this particular driver, IMHO, more the
fault of his society in allowing him to drive at his age without
periodic retesting.

There are obviously some people who shouldn't be licensed to drive.
If a person becomes legally blind at any age would you suggest that he
had some sort of a "right" to drive?

I seem to remember a news item a few years ago where some legally
blind person in the USA was arrested for driving while having an young
child on his lap telling him which way to steer.

How about a uncontrolled epileptics? How about those who suffer from
narcolepsy? How about sufferers from a number of other physical or
mental conditions?

Age alone doesn't imply incapacity. Some people can probably safely
drive at 95 or 100. However, this doesn't mean that all can.

According to reports I've read, this bloke drove three blocks through
a crowded marketplace at 100 kph, or about 62 MPH.

Any way to stop such carnage other than better driver testing?

Sure, could plant temporary land mines which would only trigger under
he weight of a vehicle on all approach streets, and provide warning
signs. [A bit tough on those who cannot read or make mistakes, but
limits damage to innocent people.]

Or could provide an armed guard at each entrance to the market with a
..44 magnum. They could have stopped the car or the driver with a well
placed shot.

Am sure that could find lots of volunteers in California who would
love to use their weapon to disable a car or disable or kill its
driver.

However, a kinder, more technological, solution would be a unit on the
car that would kill the engine on receipt of a coded tight EM signal,
such as a radar signal. It is probably even possible to set up an
"electronic fence" that no vehicle equipped with the engine shutoff
device could bypass.

If required all vehicles to be equipped with such a device, would
greatly simplify stopping vehicles at roadblocks , police chases, etc.

Of course, there are other possibilities. Could pull semitrailers
across all access roads and drivers who were out of control could
crash into them.

Or, if had good anchor points, could simply string heavy enough steel
cable.

Perhaps others would like to offer other possibilities to prevent such
tragedies?

Although I really don't expect much from many people on
misc.survivalism who have in the past tried to defend the "right" of
drunken drivers to drive without the risk of random breath tests. :-)













  #123   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 04:11 AM
erniegalts
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 09:47:33 +0100, Peter Hill
wrote:

On 18 Jul 2003 23:37:50 -0700, (Jaws) wrote:

leon skunkers wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:58:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

8 dead , 45 critically injured, including many children in LA Farmers
Market Driving Spree!

Ban Cars! Register them and license their owners!

No one has a need for a deadly automobile, let alone one that will
travel in excess of 60 miles per hour with one push of the peddle!

Ban these horrible instruments of death. Every year in the US, over
40,000 people are killed by them, and hundreds of thousands more are
maimed and crippled for life!

For Gods Sake,ban them for the Children!

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

yeah. And send your contributions to MAGOO (mothers against geezers
operating oldsmobiles). Hang up posters of the dead people all over
Florida's Fossil Riviera and get celebrities to whine about the whole
thing on TV.

Hangin' is too good for these old farts that take to the road
knowingly impaired by the ravages of age.


You'll be an "old fart" one of these days. After driving all those
years you're just going to hand over your keys. No laws saying you
have to, just decide for yourself that you're to old to drive. Give
up the vintage 1999 Corvette????? Give the old guy a little respect.
Maybe he caused an accident but he's still a human being.


All drivers should be retested every 10 years. Not just eyesight or a
doctors certificate, a full test to the current standards.


Well, I wouldn't worry about it, but it would cost a lot to do it.

However, many problems arise from older drivers not being aware of
current regulations, and others arise from slower reaction times.

Both could easily be tested by computer. All drivers could easily and
cheaply be tested by an adequate program. Raw score could be adjusted
up or down according to recorded legal violations since last test.

Obviously, those who violate any law, including parking or vehicle
defect violations are potentially more dangerous than those who try to
stay inside the law.

However, the only really significant point clusters around the
pass/fail score as the result of the computer test.

Say, for instance the "pass" score is 70 out of 100 possible points.

Anyone who achieves this score gets a new license for the next ten
years. Perhaps anyone who scores between 50 and 70 gets a full
retest from a driving examiner, just to try to eliminate possible
defects in the computer test.

Anyone who scores less than 50 out of a possible 100 is either clearly
incompetent or cannot be bothered to try to qualify, and their license
can be pulled for a few months before they can try again.

My next door neighbour but one is over 70. She is a very careful slow
driver and never exceeds 20mph. She fails her driving test every day.
She gets home and needs a 20ft kerbside space to parallel park a 10ft
Austin Mini in. She gives it lots of revs - sounds like around 3000
so if her foot slipped off the clutch it would be carnage. Then she
needs 10 backwards and forwards shuffles to get it in. After all
this, it's a foot away from the curb at the back and two feet away at
the front. I've seen abandoned cars parked better.


Um,well, does indicate a problem, doesn't it? If she cannot park any
better than that, is she a safe driver, no matter how slowly she
drives?

Many farm tractors won't do 20 mph, but people still get run over by
them. Perhaps it is time that she switched to slow electric vehicle
that can be run on streets or sidewalks?

She often gives the vicar a lift - must give praise to God after every
journey.


Or perhaps he has a lot of faith, or perhaps maybe cannot wait to meet
his maker? :-)








"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]
  #124   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 04:26 AM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

In article , erniegalts says...

There are obviously some people who shouldn't be licensed to drive.
If a person becomes legally blind at any age would you suggest that he
had some sort of a "right" to drive?


*Absolutely*!!

They have an absolute, god-give right to drive the
vehicle of their choice.

As long as it's a motorycle.



Jim

==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

  #125   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 05:13 AM
erniegalts
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:01:03 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

On 20 Jul 2003 21:42:59 -0700, (Jaws) wrote:

Gunner wrote in message . ..
On 18 Jul 2003 23:37:50 -0700,
(Jaws) wrote:

leon skunkers wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 03:58:47 GMT, Gunner
wrote:

8 dead , 45 critically injured, including many children in LA Farmers
Market Driving Spree!

Ban Cars! Register them and license their owners!

No one has a need for a deadly automobile, let alone one that will
travel in excess of 60 miles per hour with one push of the peddle!

Ban these horrible instruments of death. Every year in the US, over
40,000 people are killed by them, and hundreds of thousands more are
maimed and crippled for life!

For Gods Sake,ban them for the Children!

Gunner

Liberals - Cosmopolitan critics, men who are the friends
of every country save their own. Benjamin Disraeli

yeah. And send your contributions to MAGOO (mothers against geezers
operating oldsmobiles). Hang up posters of the dead people all over
Florida's Fossil Riviera and get celebrities to whine about the whole
thing on TV.

Hangin' is too good for these old farts that take to the road
knowingly impaired by the ravages of age.

You'll be an "old fart" one of these days. After driving all those
years you're just going to hand over your keys. No laws saying you
have to, just decide for yourself that you're to old to drive. Give
up the vintage 1999 Corvette????? Give the old guy a little respect.
Maybe he caused an accident but he's still a human being.

And he still killed 10 people, and maimed 45 for life. Thats not
exactly an "ooops", now is it?

Gunner

"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs


You're right. But he's stlii a human being.

So, you gonna give up your keys when you're an "old fart" or are you
gonna hope they got the concrete barriers up when you pass the farmers
market.


When Im no longer able to safely navigate 5000 lbs+ of hurtling metal
rubber and glass down the road, I will sadly but willingly give up my
keys. Shrug, its a fact of life that each of us have to bear. I no
longer rock climb, race motorcycles or rodeo. Age takes it toll. I
regret not being able to climb up on the back of a bull and holler for
the gate, miss it terribly, but those days are long gone. Shrug. Im
realistic about it.


But you don't stop lying about others, do you Gunner?

You have publicly accused me, worldwide, of being a "self-confessed
pedophile".

That is a lie that cannot be recalled.

You cannot possibly prove this accusation, but you are invited to try.

Worse yet, you support Ray Keller, who cannot prove such an accusation
either?

While you are at it, Gunner, why don't you accuse me of being a
"self-confessed" mother****er or a Nazi or Communist or murderer?

All would be more "acceptable" than accusing me of being a
"self-confessed pedophile".

If there is anything lower on the human scale of existence than a
"self-confessed pedophile", it would probably be a "Satanist".

I will never forgive you or others who have grossly insulted me in
this way, nor your supporters.

Which is why I suggested that Sue "stay out of the issue" unless she
was willing to take sides and be "unacceptable" to you or to me.

As have said before on "misc.survivalism", Gunner, there is only
"right" and "wrong", "friend" or "enemy, "truth" or "lies"

There is no acceptable "middle ground", on such issues, nor can
there be.

You have accused me of being as "self-confessed pedophile". You
cannot possibly prove this accusation. Therefore you are a deliberate
liar, and anyone who supports you is a liar.




"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]


  #126   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 05:18 AM
Tim Williams
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
??? If there is no God then *everything* is predetermined. There is
no such thing as free will choice.

The condition was that God didn't exist. If He does exist then you
can't say all things are God's will since there is therefore free
choice, and the choices made may be against his will.


You must be assuming God gives us free will; thus without a God, there
is no free will and all is predetermined.

Tim (doesn't feel like digging through Genesis at this hour)

--
In the immortal words of Ned Flanders: "No foot longs!"
Website @ http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms


  #127   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 05:33 AM
jim rozen
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)

In article , "Tim says...

You [johnm] must be assuming God gives us free will; thus without a God,
there is no free will and all is predetermined.


"God does not play dice." (A. Einstein)
"Don't tell god what to do." (N. Bohr)

Supposedly a true interchange.

Jim

==================================================
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==================================================

  #128   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 05:37 AM
erniegalts
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 06:58:22 -0700, Louis Boyd
wrote:Gunner wrote:

When Im no longer able to safely navigate 5000 lbs+ of hurtling metal
rubber and glass down the road, I will sadly but willingly give up my
keys. Shrug, its a fact of life that each of us have to bear. I no
longer rock climb, race motorcycles or rodeo. Age takes it toll. I
regret not being able to climb up on the back of a bull and holler for
the gate, miss it terribly, but those days are long gone. Shrug. Im
realistic about it.

Gunner


The problem with high powered equipment which take skill but not much
physical strength to operate is knowing when one is too far "over the
hill" to use it safely.


Yep. Some call it being in touch with reality. :-)

Old farts quit listening to their well
intentioned friends, spouses, and co-workers who may be suggesting to
give it up. It may not be at all obvious to someone in a declining
health (mental and/or physical) that anything is wrong. That certainly
includes operating automobile, construction machinery, machine tools,
firearms, and even computer keyboards.


Would have to agree with some of these points, considering that
"Gunner" was once a much admired person on misc.survivalism.

.....Or at least I admired him. And can dip into "Google" and provide
plenty of evidence for this.

..... Can even offer evidence of psychological support when he was
having some problems.

....Yet now he accuses me of being a "self-confessed pedophile", and
has apparently joined people such as Ray Keller.

Can you explain this? ....I cannot.

He has obviously changed sides and wants to become a liar. I cannot
see his attitude in any other way.

Some claims are acceptable and some are not possibly acceptable.

Perhaps it is "culturally accepable" to accuse anyone of anything in
the USA. It isn't here.

By accusing me of being a "self-confessed pedophile" he has gone
beyond all possible redemption.

I might have been able to accept an accusation of being a
"mother****er" or "Nazi" or "Communist", but never a "pedophile".

He knew this, he chose to call me this.

Do people want to see some proof?

Check Google reference:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&threadm=gf9s1vo5umuobf854oan98ub5faoac7ffr%404ax .com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522hot%2522%2B%2522sleeve%2522%2B%2 522misc.survivalism%2522%2B%2522gunner%2522%26hl%3 Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26selm%3Dgf9s1vo5umuobf854oan98ub5faoac7ffr%2540 4ax.com%26rnum%3D1



Gunner knows he is guilty, as does his supporters.



Lou Boyd

"_Magna est veritas et praevalebit"_
(Truth is mighty and will prevail).

erniegalts
[Australia]
[misc.survivalism]
  #129   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 06:34 AM
Gunner
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 18:58:30 -0400, "dddd" wrote:

Mark,

You just proved everything I have said over the last two days all by
yourself.


Really? How so?

You really are a self destructive moron.


Really? How so?

Feel free to take the last word. I am done till next time.


Thats mighty nice of you. Snicker.

Gunner


--
Regards,
Dewey Clark http://www.historictimekeepers.com
Ebay Sales:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAP...ems&userid=dsc
Restorations, Parts for Hamilton M21s, Products for Craftsmen
Makers of Historic Timekeepers Ultrasonic Clock Cleaning Solution

"Gunner" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 07:15:59 -0400, "dddd" wrote:

Just proves what a wimp you are. Not only have you admitted you are a
dishonorable person who keeps people waiting for the money you owe them

("I
owe lots of people money. Everyone gets paid, sooner or later."), but you
deny what was written.


Dishonorable? Because I dont have any money to pay my creditors? I
made $22k last year, gross. My expenses last year were $24k. Do the
math.

Ever seen my various ads here to sell machines? Its not because I
wanted to, trust me. Its because the wife that left me in 2000, left
me broke, deeply in debt and in a world of ****. And then returned
with 2 heart attacks, a double bypass and Factor V/Leiden. And no
medical insurance. Wanna figure out my debt load now? Somewhere around
$400,000 at the moment.

Wanna know what a good meal for me involves? The ability to pick beans
and rice, instead of just macaroni and cheese.

Up your ass, you smarmy little ****. Unless you have walked in my
shoes for a week, your opinion means dick.

I owe Jack Erbes on this newsgroup $500 for his Logan Shaper, and I
owe Ned Simmons $60 for an O scope that I bought and was stolen, along
with the $15,000 worth of parts and tools, when I had my truck
burglarized. No insurance, couldnt afford any.

They WILL get paid. Ive never welched on a debt in my life.

I recently brokered a machine tool. The seller wanted $8,500. I found
a buyer who was happy to pay $17,500. The hand shake agreement was
10%. $1,750. The guy stiffed me completly. And it was on a deal that
I borrowed money to make happen. I had no phone, and no lights for 3
weeks, but the person I borrowed the money from, got paid back.

If its a choice between paying $20 to the Red Crescent, or $20 for
meds for my wife, or gas to go to work, which do you think is gonna
get first priority?

While I had it wrong about Jim (it was in fact Glen Ashmore, see my post

to
Jim Rozen) you will find the exchange of May 1 through a Google search.

But
I suspect that like the use of the dictionary and library, such is beyond
your ken.


Neener neener neener.

Still, at least you haven't denied that you can be shamed into correcting
your behavior. Even if you did try to behind the skirts of Jim's

correction
in an attempt to deny the event ever happened.


Did I ever deny the bet? Come on, asshole..cites.

Mark, you are an intellectual moron, a moral (oral?) coward and a

chiseler.
And you wear these attributes like a badge of honor. Like the guy said,

you
are a truly interesting deviation of the human genome.


Ah yes, you know me soo well. Indeedy. You are such a fine judge of
humanity, and me in particular. You really need to go into business.
Perhaps a weight guesser in a carnival midway?

If , as reported by others, your business is going down the tubes, these
attributes may have played a small part.


My "business" is that of independant machine tool service tech. I
travel all over California and Arizona, when there is work, fixing
machine tools. My customers are very happy with me. If they werent,
there are a bunch of other guys in the same line of work, all just as
hungry, since the manufacturing economy went south.

Oddly enough, when they have work to be done, and the money to pay for
it, they keep calling me back. I wonder why???

I keep an old ragged 1978 Aljo 22" travel trailer in an RV park in
Southern California to work out of, but if I have to work someplace
overnight, guess what, 9x out of 10, I spend the night in my truck,
and change and clean up in a public restroom, as I cannot afford a
motel room. EVERY bit of money I make goes into pay the bills.

One exception. I pay my internet account monthly, as this is virtually
the sole entertainment in my life, and my wife uses it, as she is
pretty much homebound. Now even more than before she was attacked by
the pair of pit bulls a couple weeks ago. Want to see the pictures?

But its my bronc to ride, and one Ive never shirked, no matter how
much it hurts.

When there is work, I can make good money. But it all goes back into
paying the bills from the times where is no work. Ive done everything
in the past two years, from cleaning toilets, to patching roofs, to
washing cars for gas/food money. The toys that I have, were gotten by
driving the alleys behind machine shops and asking for their junk, or
by bartering for them.

Ask Marty Escarcega, or Pete Albrect, or Fitch, or Leigh and others
here about my honor, honesty and "moral attributes". THEY, unlike you,
know me.

You have your panties on a wad, because you dont like me for my
political views, and the fact I wont take crap from you. And Bubba,
you are indeed full of crap. As a Christmas goose.

I must have really ****ed you off, for you to pass judgement on me as
a man in the real world, particularly a man you have never met and
only know by my posts on the internet. A judgement btw, which doesnt
speak highly of Your honor, honesty or moral attributes.

If it were legal, we could demonstrate our honor, by having our
seconds discuss the terms, but its not, unfortunatly. Fortunately for
you perhaps, as you cannot be phyiscally held accountable for your
judgement, poor as it is. I dont know why I even bother explaining
anything to you. You are as judgmental, pompous and arrogant as the
worst bible thumper and just as cocksure of your own self
rightiousness. Very telling. Says volumes about you.

Snicker. Bite me. Get a life. If you find a second one, Ill trade you
for it, as mine sucks. But as its the only one I have, Ill keep trying
to make the best of it. And when I stop trying, it will be because
they have kicked dirt over my box.

Want to keep being judgemental about things you have no concept of,
about me, personally, feel free. Then we can discuss you and little
boys. Sound good to you? Fair is fair, no?

Want to argue and **** and moan about politics, machining etc etc,
fine, thats part of the game here on Usenet.

Want to get personal, and Id be happy to oblige. Leslie the Loonie
learned early on, that his personal issues were easy to find, and have
displayed for all to see, when he started making personal attacks.
Want to join his exclusive club?
Chuckle, there is little about me, that is not public record already,
so you cannot hurt me in the slightest. Can you say the same? Think
hard before you answer.

Also think about the fact that Leslie the Loonie never gets
personally flamed, bashed or exposed, unless he starts it. Im not shy
about responding, but I seldom start it. While Im poor in money, Ive
got plenty of spirit left. And in the grand scheme of things, you are
no more than a skidmark in the shorts of life.

Disregards

Gunner



"What do you call someone in possesion of all the facts? Paranoid.-William Burroughs
  #130   Report Post  
Old July 22nd 03, 08:17 AM
John Flanagan
 
Posts: n/a
Default 8 Murdered, 45 critically injured in LA Spree (what a moron)

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:18:00 -0500, "Tim Williams"
wrote:

"John Flanagan" wrote in message
...
??? If there is no God then *everything* is predetermined. There is
no such thing as free will choice.

The condition was that God didn't exist. If He does exist then you
can't say all things are God's will since there is therefore free
choice, and the choices made may be against his will.


You must be assuming God gives us free will; thus without a God, there
is no free will and all is predetermined.


You are exactly right :^). If there is only material then you are
only what the atoms in your body make you. There is no free will
there, merely the illusion of it. Free will must be something beyond
the physical, in fact it must be infinite or omnipotent for free will
to be in it's fullest, purest form. So the idea is free will comes
from God within us, for those who have God in them. As the Apostle
Peter said, those who have not God are like unreasoning animals, by
which I believe he meant they do not possess free will but are guided
by animal instinct, not moral choice.

John

Please note that my return address is wrong due to the amount of junk email I get.
So please respond to this message through the newsgroup.


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