Hello:

Will be looking to replace a 30 yr old gas, forced hot air heating furnace
in a residence.

Read Consumers Research, and they "rate" American Standard as best, with
Rheem next.

Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go into the
methodology they use.

Anyway, there is such good advice on this forum, thought I'd ask here.

Is it the general consensous of you folks that American Standard (and then
Rheem) really are the
two top brands to consider for gas, forced hot air furnaces ?

Why ?

Any to "absolutely" avoid ?

Might as well also ask: same manufacturer rating order for the split type
of A/C where the condenser is
placed outside the house ?

Thanks,
B.

Robert11 wrote:
Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go
into the methodology they use.

In the case of repair frequency, they take their numbers from the annual
survey of their subscribers.

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

Will be looking to replace a 30 yr old gas, forced hot air heating furnace
in a residence.

Read Consumers Research, and they "rate" American Standard as best, with
Rheem next.

Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go into the
methodology they use.

Anyway, there is such good advice on this forum, thought I'd ask here.

Is it the general consensous of you folks that American Standard (and
then
Rheem) really are the
two top brands to consider for gas, forced hot air furnaces ?

Why ?

Any to "absolutely" avoid ?

Might as well also ask: same manufacturer rating order for the split type
of A/C where the condenser is
placed outside the house ?

Thanks,
B.

The manufacture is not the most important part. The installer is.

Check out the seer and heat ratings for all of the units your going to
consider. Narrow it down to 4-5 models and then seek contractors. Make sure
that they do calculations. Not just "you got a 2 ton so we will replace it
with a 2 ton." Have them inspect your duct work and see if there are any
challenges that need to be corrected.

Check the guarantees and do not forget to call your utilities. They might
have rebates if you buy a certain level of equipment.

Personally when I change units again I will make damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor.

Robert11 wrote:
Hello:

Will be looking to replace a 30 yr old gas, forced hot air heating
furnace in a residence.

Read Consumers Research, and they "rate" American Standard as best,
with Rheem next.

Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go
into the methodology they use.

First you need to read the actual magazine story, not the annual report.
The magazine version usually gives good information about the methodology.
As someone noted the frequency of repair information comes from annual
surveys that they send out to their subscribers and maybe some others.


Anyway, there is such good advice on this forum, thought I'd ask here.

Is it the general consensous of you folks that American Standard
(and then Rheem) really are the
two top brands to consider for gas, forced hot air furnaces ?

Why ?

This is one area where I may question the results you get from CR. I am
generally a fan of their results, but in the case of this type of equipment
the installation is a very large part of the results you get. Poor job and
the best unit will not do well.

In this case you start by finding the professional who is going to do
the install. Then let them pick, with your input, the product for you.
They are going to pick something that is good and fits your needs.

Start off by asking your friends, family, neighbors and co-workers for
names and recommendations. Go from there. Get a couple of estimates.


Any to "absolutely" avoid ?

Might as well also ask: same manufacturer rating order for the split
type of A/C where the condenser is
placed outside the house ?

Thanks,
B.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

Thanks again,
Bob
--------------------

"SQLit" wrote in message
news:uwpVd.147300$0u.119643@fed1read04...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

Will be looking to replace a 30 yr old gas, forced hot air heating
furnace
in a residence.

Read Consumers Research, and they "rate" American Standard as best, with
Rheem next.

Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go into
the
methodology they use.

Anyway, there is such good advice on this forum, thought I'd ask here.

Is it the general consensous of you folks that American Standard (and
then
Rheem) really are the
two top brands to consider for gas, forced hot air furnaces ?

Why ?

Any to "absolutely" avoid ?

Might as well also ask: same manufacturer rating order for the split
type
of A/C where the condenser is
placed outside the house ?

Thanks,
B.

The manufacture is not the most important part. The installer is.

Check out the seer and heat ratings for all of the units your going to
consider. Narrow it down to 4-5 models and then seek contractors. Make
sure
that they do calculations. Not just "you got a 2 ton so we will replace it
with a 2 ton." Have them inspect your duct work and see if there are any
challenges that need to be corrected.

Check the guarantees and do not forget to call your utilities. They might
have rebates if you buy a certain level of equipment.

Personally when I change units again I will make damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor.

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?


Goodman's got it.
BTW, I'm afraid that those statistics for Goodman equipment must include the
discontinued Janitrol line. It was the low-end junk line. Goodman also owns
Amana now and I would bet that most of the repairs necessary on the Goodman
equipment was for the hot surface ignitor. And that they failed while still
under warranty. Goodman is now trying to have a bracket made so that these
ignitors may be replaced with the same ignitors they use on the Amana line.
I hate to see so many folks trash Goodman. I personally think it is the best
bang for your buck. And in NJ there's quite a few A+ dealers to service the
warranty.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?


Goodman's got it.
BTW, I'm afraid that those statistics for Goodman equipment must include
the
discontinued Janitrol line. It was the low-end junk line.

The entire brand is Junk.

Goodman also owns
Amana now and I would bet that most of the repairs necessary on the
Goodman
equipment was for the hot surface ignitor. And that they failed while
still
under warranty.

And now that's what happening to Amana. Goodman bought Amana to try to get
some better press. They found out they could save about $2-3 dollars on a
different inducer and did it. They didn't even bother to check reliability.
The inducers started crapping out almost right away and they are giving
replacements out to contractors left and right.

Goodman is now trying to have a bracket made so that these
ignitors may be replaced with the same ignitors they use on the Amana
line.
I hate to see so many folks trash Goodman.

They have a poor track record.

I personally think it is the best
bang for your buck. And in NJ there's quite a few A+ dealers to service
the warranty.


I service that line if a customer has one, but I collect for the labor AND
fixing the stuff the 'installer' didn't do correctly or to code.

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could, and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.

Not only that, but Goodman will warrant it for "life" on the 13 SEER units
and above. (Original owner only)

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:WpXVd.74439$uc.26572@trnddc04...

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I
will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can
take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.

Not only that, but Goodman will warrant it for "life" on the 13 SEER units
and above. (Original owner only)


Yesterday I found out that Goodman's extended warrantys are _transferable_.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I
will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can
take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.


Last I heard, they were only in the higher efficiency line, not the 10 SEER
stuff.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:WpXVd.74439$uc.26572@trnddc04...

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I
will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can
take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips
could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.

Not only that, but Goodman will warrant it for "life" on the 13 SEER
units
and above. (Original owner only)


Yesterday I found out that Goodman's extended warrantys are
_transferable_.



Got a link to that bit of news?

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

Last I heard, they were only in the higher efficiency line, not the 10
SEER
stuff.


No matter what the brand, why would you want to use 10 seer equipment unless
you are desperate? or uninformed.

"HeatMan" wrote in message
news

Got a link to that bit of news?



No link. I was told that by the folks in TX at warranty administration. They
told me to just enclose a letter with the warranty form stating who the new
owner of the house is and they'll update thier records. I was surprised
myself. I'll let you know how it goes if you want.

A scroll compressor is used on some AC units, in the outdoor "condensing
unit". I'm not sure why they are more expensive. Hwoever, they are more
energy efficient. And more dependable. Less likely to break. Quieter.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
www.mormons.com


What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

In article ,
"Kathy" wrote:

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

Last I heard, they were only in the higher efficiency line, not the 10
SEER
stuff.


No matter what the brand, why would you want to use 10 seer equipment unless
you are desperate? or uninformed.

Comfort- 10 seer removes more moisture.
Price- 10 seer costs less.
Size- 10 seer is smaller equipment
Electronic's- Doesn't require DC/ECM motors.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

Last I heard, they were only in the higher efficiency line, not the 10
SEER
stuff.


No matter what the brand, why would you want to use 10 seer equipment
unless
you are desperate? or uninformed.


I don't use it. I sell and install the equipment. When I bid someone a 12
SEER unit and they say it's too much, I tell them the price on a 10 SEER
unit. I also tell them the 12 SEER stuff will cost less to operate.

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Kathy" wrote:

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

Last I heard, they were only in the higher efficiency line, not the 10
SEER
stuff.


No matter what the brand, why would you want to use 10 seer equipment
unless
you are desperate? or uninformed.

Comfort- 10 seer removes more moisture.

Prove it... Maybe because it 'runs longer?'

Price- 10 seer costs less.

True.

Size- 10 seer is smaller equipment

I can get 10 SEER evaps that are the same size. The condensers are bigger,
though

Electronic's- Doesn't require DC/ECM motors.

The 12 SEER stuff I sell doesn't either. You can get VS equipment that is
ECM.

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
news

Got a link to that bit of news?



No link. I was told that by the folks in TX at warranty administration.
They
told me to just enclose a letter with the warranty form stating who the
new
owner of the house is and they'll update thier records. I was surprised
myself. I'll let you know how it goes if you want.



Talk is cheap. Show it to me in writing.

I was told a while back that the lifetime compressor warranty was only
if a complete system was installed, only for the residential(I think),
only for the original purchaser, and supposedly the purchaser had to
live in the house--no rental property-- although I don't now how deeply
they would check into that.And if the original purchaser sold the house,
the warranty would revert to the regular 10 year. However, I think the
lifetime on Amana heat exchangers is lifetime period-- whether original
owner or 20th owner. You got me curious now. I'm gonna check into this
and see if they changed their policy. Larry

Scroll's are in almost all equipment nowadays, with the exception of the
Climatuf.

--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

Thanks again,
Bob
--------------------

"SQLit" wrote in message
news:uwpVd.147300$0u.119643@fed1read04...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hello:

Will be looking to replace a 30 yr old gas, forced hot air heating
furnace
in a residence.

Read Consumers Research, and they "rate" American Standard as best,
with
Rheem next.

Am always a bit leery with CR's ratings, as they seldom really go into
the
methodology they use.

Anyway, there is such good advice on this forum, thought I'd ask here.

Is it the general consensous of you folks that American Standard (and
then
Rheem) really are the
two top brands to consider for gas, forced hot air furnaces ?

Why ?

Any to "absolutely" avoid ?

Might as well also ask: same manufacturer rating order for the split
type
of A/C where the condenser is
placed outside the house ?

Thanks,
B.

The manufacture is not the most important part. The installer is.

Check out the seer and heat ratings for all of the units your going to
consider. Narrow it down to 4-5 models and then seek contractors. Make
sure
that they do calculations. Not just "you got a 2 ton so we will replace
it
with a 2 ton." Have them inspect your duct work and see if there are any
challenges that need to be corrected.

Check the guarantees and do not forget to call your utilities. They
might
have rebates if you buy a certain level of equipment.

Personally when I change units again I will make damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor.

They have inferior components
Door Switches
Circuit Boards (if you can keep up with the changes)
Heat Exchangers
Inducers
Inferior Cabinet Construction
The gauge of metal on the cabinets is like tin foil
The evopator pans are prone to leakage.
Rust Problems after a year or two
I could go on.......

Goodman doesn't replace Janitrol, Goodman is Janitrol, and GMC. It does not
produce Amana it is owned by the same company that owns Amana.

The ONLY reason to put this stuff in someones house is unfortunately they
are lacking some funds and really cant afford to buy anything else, it is
for a rental property with a really cheap landlord, your customer got
flagged on a home inspection and doesn't really care about the new
homeowners, you can't buy anything else because of your reputation or you
are a moonlighter, you got it for free for your own house, or you really
don't like the person you are installing it for!

Sorry, but let's be truthful here if we have a little knowledge of the HVAC
field. Goodman in any form is the worst equipment on the market.
--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist




"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I
will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?
Why is it better ?
More expensive ?

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?


Goodman's got it.
BTW, I'm afraid that those statistics for Goodman equipment must include
the
discontinued Janitrol line. It was the low-end junk line.

The entire brand is Junk.

Goodman also owns
Amana now and I would bet that most of the repairs necessary on the
Goodman
equipment was for the hot surface ignitor. And that they failed while
still
under warranty.

And now that's what happening to Amana. Goodman bought Amana to try to
get
some better press. They found out they could save about $2-3 dollars on a
different inducer and did it. They didn't even bother to check
reliability.
The inducers started crapping out almost right away and they are giving
replacements out to contractors left and right.

Goodman is now trying to have a bracket made so that these
ignitors may be replaced with the same ignitors they use on the Amana
line.
I hate to see so many folks trash Goodman.

They have a poor track record.

I personally think it is the best
bang for your buck. And in NJ there's quite a few A+ dealers to service
the warranty.


I service that line if a customer has one, but I collect for the labor AND
fixing the stuff the 'installer' didn't do correctly or to code.

"Bob Pietrangelo" wrote in message
...
They have inferior components
Door Switches
Circuit Boards (if you can keep up with the changes)
Heat Exchangers
Inducers
Inferior Cabinet Construction
The gauge of metal on the cabinets is like tin foil
The evopator pans are prone to leakage.
Rust Problems after a year or two
I could go on.......

Goodman doesn't replace Janitrol, Goodman is Janitrol, and GMC. It does
not
produce Amana it is owned by the same company that owns Amana.

The ONLY reason to put this stuff in someones house is unfortunately they
are lacking some funds and really cant afford to buy anything else, it is
for a rental property with a really cheap landlord, your customer got
flagged on a home inspection and doesn't really care about the new
homeowners, you can't buy anything else because of your reputation or you
are a moonlighter, you got it for free for your own house, or you really
don't like the person you are installing it for!

So true...

I checked out the website, looks good Bob. "Look no further" - good
one.

Joseph

Sorry, but let's be truthful here if we have a little knowledge of the
HVAC
field. Goodman in any form is the worst equipment on the market.
--
Bob Pietrangelo


www.comfort-solution.biz
On Time or Your Service Call is FREE
Preventive Maintenance Specialist

bill wrote:

Comfort- 10 seer removes more moisture.

I think this was based on the 12 SEER having higher air volume over the
evaporator, so the evap should be at a higher temp and have less
condensation, right? But I don't think it took into account that the 12
seer evap coil will often have more surface area than the 10, so
there's more area for condensation to collect (which may or may not be
a big enough factor to compensate).

But the big one is, if you have a multispeed air handler, you can hook
a humidistat to the AC system to run the fan slower when humidity is
too high. So a 12 seer could remove as much moisture as a 10 when it
is absolutely necessary, but run at peak efficiency when
dehumidification is not necessary. The 10 seer on the other hand, can
never attain the efficiency of the 12.

"Sir, you're drunk."

"And Madam, you are ugly. But in the morning, I'll be sober."

%mod%

"Dr. Hardcrab" wrote in message
news:WpXVd.74439$uc.26572@trnddc04...

"Kathy" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"Robert11" wrote in message
...
Hi,

Thanks for all the good advice.

Let me show my ignorance: "Personally when I change units again I
will
make
damn sure that I get a
scroll compressor."

What's a scroll compressor ?

Read this: http://www.copeland-corp.com/cp_ac/cp_ac_0_1_a.htm


Why is it better ?

The things are almost bullet-proof. The have less moving parts, can
take
liquid slugs (of refrigerant) a lot better than the older recips could,
and
are quieter.

More expensive ?

I don't think so.

Found on what mfg's units, etc. ?

All of the Rheem line, higher SEER Trane and York to name a few.




And I'm sure you know that they are in the Goodman brand now too.

Not only that, but Goodman will warrant it for "life" on the 13 SEER units
and above. (Original owner only)



York does the same on the Affinity units.

In article .com,
wrote:

bill wrote:

Comfort- 10 seer removes more moisture.

I think this was based on the 12 SEER having higher air volume over the
evaporator, so the evap should be at a higher temp and have less
condensation, right? But I don't think it took into account that the 12
seer evap coil will often have more surface area than the 10, so
there's more area for condensation to collect (which may or may not be
a big enough factor to compensate).

But the big one is, if you have a multispeed air handler, you can hook
a humidistat to the AC system to run the fan slower when humidity is
too high. So a 12 seer could remove as much moisture as a 10 when it
is absolutely necessary, but run at peak efficiency when
dehumidification is not necessary. The 10 seer on the other hand, can
never attain the efficiency of the 12.

"Sir, you're drunk."

"And Madam, you are ugly. But in the morning, I'll be sober."

%mod%

The 10 will remove more moisture all other things being equal.
I was responding to the blanket statement.
Slowing the blower will compensate but out of the gate a 10 will win.

HVAC poet