Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42 degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right. It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for a
different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42
degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right.
It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a
different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

Electric strips are the worst method of heating in my opinion. I installed
them in a remodel home I had in Phoenix. I installed the electric heat cause
it was cheap and I figured I would never use it.
Were the installed heat strips enough for the home? How many kw's do they
pull? Turn on the heat and go look at the electric meter, should be spinning
like a top.
I would think that you should have something like 30-40 kw's of strip heat.
Gonna cost a bloody fortune to run.

If the strips are pulling what they are supposed to pull then you need to
find out where the heat is going.
OR
Change the speed on the blower for the winter months when heating is needed.
Move the blower to medium or low speed. Slower speed will allow the air to
heat more. Doubt that it will help the run time.

Your going to need a competent HVAC tech to diagnose the problem.

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42
degrees outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it
right. It needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but
would think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by
some more experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an
actual RUUD dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

I would absolutely call someone who knows what they are doing. If the Rudd
has a wire diagram in the electrical box or in the literature, then any
competent repair person should be able to diagnose the problem and repair
the unit.

As to cost of operation, Natural Gas in our area has increased so much that
there is $27 difference between a 90% furnace and baseboard heat to satisfy
my heating requirements. The old saying that electric heat is expensive is
no longer true! Its all based upon what the cost of a Therm is for each
type of heat and efficiency of unit. Baseboard heat is cheaper than an 80%
furnace now where we live. So, don't rip out anything until you prove what
is the best thing for your parents. Right now its getting someone in there
that knows what their doing!

Rich

"Geoman" wrote in message
...

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever
they use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one.
That didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad
so he changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The
house still takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot
house 42 degrees outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it
right. It needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but
would think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by
some more experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an
actual RUUD dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

I would absolutely call someone who knows what they are doing. If the Rudd
has a wire diagram in the electrical box or in the literature, then any
competent repair person should be able to diagnose the problem and repair
the unit.

As to cost of operation, Natural Gas in our area has increased so much
that there is $27 difference between a 90% furnace and baseboard heat to
satisfy my heating requirements. The old saying that electric heat is
expensive is no longer true! Its all based upon what the cost of a Therm
is for each type of heat and efficiency of unit. Baseboard heat is cheaper
than an 80% furnace now where we live. So, don't rip out anything until
you prove what is the best thing for your parents. Right now its getting
someone in there that knows what their doing!

Rich



Hello guys and thanks for your input. Yeah I know we need to get someone in
there but at this point not sure who first. They surely cannot afford to
change out any equipment (sure wish it were heat pump and gas isn't an
option) so gonna have to figure out how to make it right. I guess the first
thing is they need to find out what size wire the run from the breaker panel
is. Looking at the RUUD literature it looks like depending on the distance
for a single circuit it needs to be a 4 or a 6. That seems awfully large.
Mom said the wire is about double the size of the other wiring in there but
she cannot see any writing on it so I told her to leave it till we can get
more information or a RUUD guy out there. But my guess is the RUUD guy is
gonna say " call an electrician" and then we will have to call the RUUD guy
back again..But guess we need to get it right. I find it amazing the unit
has been able to keep the house warm (albeit slow) with only working on half
the strips..
Thanks!
John

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 12:41:25 -0700, "SQLit"
wrote:


"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42
degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right.
It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a
different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

Electric strips are the worst method of heating in my opinion. I installed
them in a remodel home I had in Phoenix. I installed the electric heat cause
it was cheap and I figured I would never use it.
Were the installed heat strips enough for the home? How many kw's do they
pull? Turn on the heat and go look at the electric meter, should be spinning
like a top.
I would think that you should have something like 30-40 kw's of strip heat.
Gonna cost a bloody fortune to run.

If the strips are pulling what they are supposed to pull then you need to
find out where the heat is going.
OR
Change the speed on the blower for the winter months when heating is needed.
Move the blower to medium or low speed. Slower speed will allow the air to
heat more. Doubt that it will help the run time.

Your going to need a competent HVAC tech to diagnose the problem.


Thats pittiful advice SQLIT
Electric heat, installed properly is perfectly fine heat. It is just
expensive to run in many areas.
Ive never seen 40KW's of heat in a residential home. That equates to
240 amps of electric service!
Blower speeds dont just get changed like your underwear. On a heating
and cooling setup, it switches automatically to the speed that was
properly setup when the furnace was installed. It has to do with
temperature rise. Too low a blower speed and the heat stays too hot
and cycles/damages the limit controls. Too high a blower speed and it
constantly feels cold in the home.

To the OP:
If you are going to continue to use AHS then shut up and get the hell
outta here. You are getting butt pumped by AHS and by the cheap hacks
that they use.
You dont need to have it checked by a "Ruud Dealer". You need it
checked by a licensed competent heating contractor.
Single circuit system doesnt mean a thing. You can have one single
circuit from your main house panel to the furnace and still have up to
5 or so circuits in the furnace all running off of one, two or three
sequencers.
You need to stop with the cheap and find a good service company.
Bubba

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42 degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right. It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the model
number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a single
circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who don't know
what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for a different
service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is actually part of
the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

'UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? '

Yes, its best to use a RUUD/RHEEM dealer.

'
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct
but would think the output would be greater than luke warm.'

You should be getting close to a 45-50 f. rise thru the furnace if its
working correctly...after approx. 2 minutes of it running which gives
the furnace enough time to stage on the elements ; (that is, the
temperature of the air coming out of a nearby register versus the air
going into the furnace (return). ).

'I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) '

These Warranty Companies are wrought with problems ; usually, they send
people out who havent a clue what theyre doing. Call a RUUD/RHEEM
dealer. Ive put in about 15-20 of these RHEEM Electric Furnaces and ive
had problems with a few of them within one year of installation. Usually
the sequencers or the limit switch(s). I like the stainless steel
heating elements wrapped around the inside of the blower housing though
-- better than the cheap nickel chromium wire looped back and forth like
a giant toaster.

'I would think that you should have something like 30-40 kw's of strip
heat. Gonna cost a bloody fortune to run.'

NOT in a 1500 sq.ft home ! Youd find 40 kw electric furnaces in a 3300
sq. ft home. According to the RUUD model number she posted , its a 14
kw. unit.

'Change the speed on the blower for the winter months when heating is
needed. Move the blower to medium or low speed. Slower speed will allow
the air to heat more. Doubt that it will help the run time.'

Bad advice ! On the RUUD/RHEEM electric furnace, they require alot of
airflow for heating . It should be set up where it gives an approx.
45-50 f rise thru the furnace...which in my experience...nearly all the
time requires high speed year round. Ive seen too many electric heat
failures with lowering the blower speed...especially with HO's
forgetting to change the air filter often.

'Your going to need a competent HVAC tech to diagnose the problem.''

Bingo.

'To the OP:
If you are going to continue to use AHS then shut up and get the hell
outta here. You are getting butt pumped by AHS and by the cheap hacks
that they use.'

Please excuse this bad attitude HVAC serviceman ; not all in the trade
are like this obnoxious filthy mouthed person. But, alot of them are im
afraid.

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42
degrees outside)

Sounds like they sent a parts changer out to fix your problem - "try this -
nope, didn't work. replace that - nope didn't work." (you get the idea.
Alot of these guys have very little training or experience and use the "need
to order a part" excuse so they can go ask someone with the knowledge or to
look up a generic service manual solution to what they have found on-site.
Essentially you're paying them by the hour to "learn on the job".
Unfortunately they tend to get lucky and "fix" the problem by replacing the
right part by accident.

So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it
right. It needs two circuits and they only wired in one"

Another parts changer with better "technical" excuses.

Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but
would think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by
some more experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an
actual RUUD dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

If you want to wait around and pay for labour and enough parts until they
stumble across what is actually causing the problem, then start with the
phone book and call in the cheapest guys you can find.

If you want the problem diagnosed, identified, and CORRECTED, then find out
who services the equipment you have OR an EXPERIENCED contractor. Yes, the
guys who tend to specialize can be more expensive but compare that to paying
for 2 or 3 different guys for at least an hour each to one guy who
identifies and corrects the problem within an hour or so. Just my opinon as
an HVAC building controls tech with 8 years of hearing the same things.

Savage

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:37:19 -0600, (Dave in
Lake Villa) wrote:

'To the OP:
If you are going to continue to use AHS then shut up and get the hell
outta here. You are getting butt pumped by AHS and by the cheap hacks
that they use.'

Please excuse this bad attitude HVAC serviceman ; not all in the trade
are like this obnoxious filthy mouthed person. But, alot of them are im
afraid.


And you DAvey boy are the laughing stock of the industry. Everyone
knows it. Your advice is so bad its deadly. Go away davey. Nobody
wants your advice you looney hack.
Bubba

"SQLit" wrote in message
news:RXQLd.16317$0u.4797@fed1read04...


Electric strips are the worst method of heating in my opinion. I installed
them in a remodel home I had in Phoenix. I installed the electric heat
cause
it was cheap and I figured I would never use it.
Were the installed heat strips enough for the home? How many kw's do they
pull? Turn on the heat and go look at the electric meter, should be
spinning
like a top.
I would think that you should have something like 30-40 kw's of strip
heat.
Gonna cost a bloody fortune to run.



Electric is the worst way to heat?? Not if you pay 2.6 cents a KW!!

30-40 KW of strip heat, in a 1500 square foot home in Texas?? Are you crazy?
10 KW would probably be plenty. Heck, here in ND we put maybe 15 KW in a
home that size!
Greg

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42 degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right. It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the model
number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a single
circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who don't know
what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for a different
service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is actually part of
the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John

This is Turtle.

First Don't fool with these AHS wizards. AHS signs up the cheapest producers of
hvac equipment in the area and tells them to do it for about 1/4 the cost that a
regular hvac contractor will work for and then you can sign up with us. AHS has
not spend as much money on fixing at your hvac system 3 times as they would have
by fixing it the first time with a real hvac contractor. They just get the
cheapest workers that they can find and hope the fix it by the 4 th try where
they break even on cost effective of getting a real hvac service company out
there. They play the law of averages and hope to fix it by the 4 th try.

Secondly here. You have a 14.2 KW heat strips in the air handler and you say you
have only 1,500 sq. ft. of floor space and take 2 hours to rise the temp 5ºF in
the home at 42ºF outdoors. . Well there is two things going on here. First you
need to go around and shut all the window and doors or your not running 14.2 KW
worth of heat running. It sounds like your just running 10 KW at best and not
running the full 14.2 KW of heat. At the 14 KW rate of heat your not going to be
running no 2 hour to come up 5ºF on your home without the windows up or
something like that.

Thirdly. Here is what i think is going on and it would fit to the not keeping
up. The UBHC series Ruud / Rheem air handlers has roll electric elements in it
and they are very pronded to failure is early life use and there is a recall of
them if used in a horzinial application. i just think you have one of the
elements out and just running on two of the three suppose to be running.

Fourthly. there is a recall on certain models and serial numbers of this air
handler you have. Your model number is in the recall but you need to see the
serial number to make sure it is in the recall units listed. Now i will give you
the website to call or look at listed numbers to see if your unit is in the
recall here for you to view.
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml99/99061.html
The number to call to check on your air handler is listed in the recall can be
got at 1-877-749-6035 ------ 24 hour a day / 7 days a week Rheem Hot line if you
have trouble getting it over the internet.

Fifthly here. the reason the air handlers is recalled is the Electric Heat
element will start to burn up but they will slowly burn up and start spitting
little balls of moltent metal into the ductwork and if installed in a horzonial
application it will spit these little fire balls into the rooms of the house.
There has been reports of people sitting in their living room and start seeing
fire ball flying into the room from the ductwork on the carpet and setting
fires. I think that would be interesting to watch the people's faces when they
saw this. So if the air handler is not in a horzonial application. There would
be very little chance of setting a fire.

Sixthly here. Check the serial number of your air handler and make sure your in
the recall type of the air handlers and then call a Ruud or even a Rheem Dealer
to get Rheem to replace the elements with the new type that does not spit out
fire balls. The whole cost of having the whole blower unit and elements changed
out is free of charge through a Rheem / Ruud / WeatherKing Dealer. Now I did
change out a few under the warranty but me being Commercial & not a residentiual
contracted Rheem dealer . they would only give me the elements and sequancers to
change out and give me $100.00 service cost to change them out. If your a
residentiual contracted Rheem / Ruud / WeatherKing Dealer you get $100.00 + the
whole blower unit with elements in it to change out. So try to get a Ruud
residentiual dealer and you get more for your change out valve.

seventhly here. Now Rheem / Ruud / WeatherKing could decline to change the
elements out on it under the recall is the air handler is over 5 years old ,
none of the elements of the air handler are not burnt , and the air handler is
installed in a vertical application. Now you can say this and get it changed out
anyway. Well if there is a recall on my unit and it happens to set the house on
fire. I will sue you as the dealer and Rheem for any damages that happen. Then
the thought pattern changes and they change them out for free. The Rheem / Ruud
/ Weather King dealer are told to try to get out of it if possible. If your
model and serial number is of the recall air handler. Take nothing less than new
elements and sequancers on your unit and installed for free.

eightly here. If you do get the Ruud dealer to change the elements out under the
recall . Do have him service your unit and check it out for any other defects
that you may have. You may have to pay a little more to have it checked out but
it maybe well worth it down the road with problems.

If you want to discuss the details of this. Just e-mail me and discuss it.

TURTLE

Greg where can you get 2.6 Kwh in the US, im running an extension cord
there. I pay 12.5 Kwh

"Dave in Lake Villa" wrote in message
...
'UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? '

Yes, its best to use a RUUD/RHEEM dealer.

'
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct
but would think the output would be greater than luke warm.'

You should be getting close to a 45-50 f. rise thru the furnace if its
working correctly...after approx. 2 minutes of it running which gives
the furnace enough time to stage on the elements ; (that is, the
temperature of the air coming out of a nearby register versus the air
going into the furnace (return). ).

'I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) '

These Warranty Companies are wrought with problems ; usually, they send
people out who havent a clue what theyre doing. Call a RUUD/RHEEM
dealer. Ive put in about 15-20 of these RHEEM Electric Furnaces and ive
had problems with a few of them within one year of installation. Usually
the sequencers or the limit switch(s). I like the stainless steel
heating elements wrapped around the inside of the blower housing though
-- better than the cheap nickel chromium wire looped back and forth like
a giant toaster.


This is Turtle.

Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel electric
heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing. Davey i did not know
that they were stainless steel elements and not straight enduction heat
elements. Did you special order them with stainless steel elements in them ?

TURTLE

Well Dave couldn`t reform alt Hvac so he is trying his preaching here.

Got a lisence yet Dave

Post your numbers on no VS DC payback please.

And your corvette goes rumpity rump rumpity rump rumpity rump. Kids
must love it.

SHUT UP DAVE

How much insulation is in your attic, go measure it. Single pane
aluminum windows ? or Good windows. Do doors seal tight. His furnace
may be fine but house could be a real leaker in air and lack of
insulation.

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Greg where can you get 2.6 Kwh in the US, im running an extension cord
there. I pay 12.5 Kwh


Cass County Electric, off peak rates, in the area of Fargo ND.
http://www.kwh.com/
This is a "off peak" rate. For those that don't know what that is, you need
to sources of heat, for example, electric boiler with a oil or gas fired
boiler. Electric resistance heat, with oil or gas forced air backup. You
agree that you will let the utility shut off your electric heat when ever
they want to, hence the second source of heat required to take over when
that happens. The utility may shut your electric heat off for days! You can
hook up both water heaters and heat for your home. The rates for general use
electric for the home is at a much higher rate, but still much cheaper than
your 12.5! IIRC about 8 cents per KW.
Greg

"Dave in Lake Villa" wrote in message
...
'I would think that you should have something like 30-40 kw's of strip
heat. Gonna cost a bloody fortune to run.'

NOT in a 1500 sq.ft home ! Youd find 40 kw electric furnaces in a 3300
sq. ft home. According to the RUUD model number she posted , its a 14
kw. unit.

'Change the speed on the blower for the winter months when heating is
needed. Move the blower to medium or low speed. Slower speed will allow
the air to heat more. Doubt that it will help the run time.'

Bad advice ! On the RUUD/RHEEM electric furnace, they require alot of
airflow for heating . It should be set up where it gives an approx.
45-50 f rise thru the furnace...which in my experience...nearly all the
time requires high speed year round. Ive seen too many electric heat
failures with lowering the blower speed...especially with HO's
forgetting to change the air filter often.

'Your going to need a competent HVAC tech to diagnose the problem.''

Bingo.


Kinda leaves you out, huh Dave?

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
How much insulation is in your attic, go measure it. Single pane
aluminum windows ? or Good windows. Do doors seal tight. His furnace
may be fine but house could be a real leaker in air and lack of
insulation.


This is Turtle.

Ransley , The reason I was a little bold here in saying that the 14.2 KW
electric heat would do a 1,500 sq. ft. house at 42ºF out door is I'm working on
a exact match of this right now. One of my tech just bought a house to fix up
and live in it for a while and then sell it and trade up in house value. It is
1,600 sq. ft. , NO insulation in the walls or attic, Wood frame off the ground
with old style window that leak like a sift, and the Rheem hot air heating
system is a 14.9 KW straight electric heat only which my father installed in the
late 1950's and me as the help. When we was checking the system out we found the
5 extra KW heat was out and it took a long time to pull the house down like 2 or
3 hours at 30ºF outdoor temp.s. and then we got the replacement 5 KW heater
element and put in it the next day and it pull the house from 50ºF up to 70ºF
indoor temp in a little over 1 hour with a 30ºF something outdoor temp. . If he
would have insullated it. We would not need the other 5 KW heat at all. We live
in Louisiana where Electric and Nat. Gas prices are not too bad. The fellow that
live there before him said his electric bill during the winter would not get
over $200.00 a month at the very cold times and this house is all electric. Also
during the Summer the highest electric bill would be about $250.00 or so.

So this was why i was getting a little bold on saying it should take care of it.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
. ..

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever
they use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one.
That didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad
so he changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The
house still takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot
house 42 degrees outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He
opened it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it
right. It needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for
a different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a
house with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but
would think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it
cause my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to
question the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by
some more experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an
actual RUUD dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John


Hello group..
Thanks to all for the info, both positive and negative. First, the reason
we have AHS for my folks is they are on a fixed income. If they had a
catastrophic failure of something like an AC unit would seriously cripple
their finances. I have helped them with as much as I can possibly afford.
I do understand your points about second rate service from them. It didn't
used to be this way but sure has become evident in the last few years. This
service call is a perfect example given the first guy didn't see that one
breaker had nothing connected to it!
As some had noticed by the model number, it is a 14kv furnace. BUT, after
looking it over it has become evident that the problem lies in the fact it
is not hooked up properly. Upon removing the inspection panel my folks
discovered that one of the two built in breakers is not even hooked up.
Either the feed wire is not heavy enough to carry the entire load of both
circuits so the bozo installed just hooked up the larger of the two, or
sometime down the line someone got in there and messed with it. I was
looking at the product literature and from what I see, given the distance
from the circuit panel it would take either 4 or 6 guage wire to supply the
furnace on a single circuit on a 90 amp. Mom says there is one, 60 amp
breaker to the unit so my guess is they didn't run enough power to it.
The house is less than four years old. Only caviat is, the house was a bank
repo so we have no information on it's history and had to buy it as-is.. My
best guess it was a lower priced house but it does seem to be built solidly.
It has nice, double pane windows and all the doors are very good insulated
doors and they seal properly. In the attic, the insulation is a white
fluffy blown in matter and is about 12-14" thick in most places. Finding
the rafters to tranverse across the attic is tricky.
We have a message into the only local RUUD dealer in the Austin TX area but
have not heard back from him as of yet. We are bypassing AHS on this one,
plus the last guy said he is going to report to AHS that the unit is wired
incorrectly so they will probably disqualify the unit for future repairs.
My best guess is we are going to have to hire an electrican to run a new
feed into the furnace closet to supply the other strips. Funny too, even
when we had really cold weather last month (down into the low 20's which is
not normal for central Texas) the thing still kept the house at 73 even
though it ran a lot.
Thanks Turtle for posting that recall notice. I am going to check that
Saturday when I can get out to their house. I doubt there unit will fall in
that as their house was built much later than the dates on that recall but
who know's they may have had an old one sitting around.
Thanks again to all and hopefully we can get this straightened out properly
without breaking the bank.
John

Turtle I was not questioning or doughting you. You are always right on
with Hvac and advise.

I just asked if it could be lack of insulation.

deviate dave would be soooo far out in left field on this one, he's in
the parking lot wondering where he parked his lil kiddy kar korvete

"John" wrote in message
...

First, the reason we have AHS for my folks is they are on a fixed income.
If they had a catastrophic failure of something like an AC unit would
seriously cripple their finances.

Do the math! Compare what the AHS rates are, your folks can probably replace
their HVAC system every few years for what they charge.
Tell your folks to put the money they spend on AHS in a savings account set
aside just for home repairs. In a while they will have a fair amount of
extra cash!
Think about it! AHS is doing it to make money. They are betting that your
parents will pay them more money than will get spent on repairs.
The big plus is your folks will be able to choose who repairs their
equipment, instead of some hack that will work for the chicken feed that AHS
pays!
Greg

'Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel
electric heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing.
Davey i did not know that they were stainless steel elements and not
straight enduction heat elements. Did you special order them with
stainless steel elements in them ?
TURTLE'

Turtle, They are stainless steel from the Factory and the Rheem
Electric Furnace brochure says explicitly that they are Stainless Steel
for greater longevity. You can call me Davey, but i prefer Dave. (Im
enjoying the exchange over in Alt. Hvac -- i think you might be winning

'Upon removing the inspection panel my folks discovered that one of the
two built in breakers is not even hooked up. '

Had one exactly like this 2 weeks ago. It was a 14 kw and only 10 kw was
being energized because the one breaker in Furnace wasnt hooked up.

'Mom says there is one, 60 amp breaker to the unit so my guess is they
didn't run enough power to it'

I think you are correct. A 14 kw. furnace should pull right around 56
amps at 240 v. with motor running. Thats pretty close to a 60 amp
breaker.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Upon removing the inspection panel my folks discovered that one of the
two built in breakers is not even hooked up. '

Had one exactly like this 2 weeks ago. It was a 14 kw and only 10 kw was
being energized because the one breaker in Furnace wasnt hooked up.

'Mom says there is one, 60 amp breaker to the unit so my guess is they
didn't run enough power to it'

I think you are correct. A 14 kw. furnace should pull right around 56
amps at 240 v. with motor running. Thats pretty close to a 60 amp
breaker.



More proof that Davey has no clue!
Better check your math, and your code book Davey!
14KW comes out to over 58 amps @ 240 volt, no way you are going to run it on
a 60 amp breaker! You will be looking for a 75 amp breaker.
Most electric heat units I have seen will split the load, 10 KW at a time.
So usually you will see two beakers, in this case probably a 60 amp and a 25
or 30 amp breaker.
If it is a 60 amp breaker it is probably a 10KW heat bank, or someone
skipped running the wire and breaker for the extra 4KW.
Greg

"John" wrote in message
...

"TURTLE" wrote in message
. ..

"John" wrote in message
...
Hello group.
Hopefully the HVAC guys are listening in.
My folks bought a house last summer which has a RUUD AC and electric
(non-heatpump) system. We noticed the house takes a LONG time to warm up
(central Texas, not really cold) so we called AHS. They sent whoever they
use, and the first guy said the sequencer was bad so he ordered one. That
didn't change anything. Then he said the thermostat inside was bad so he
changed that and told my folks it would really be better. The house still
takes over two hours to increase five degrees (1500 sq foot house 42 degrees
outside)
So mom called the company and they sent the dad of the first guy. He opened
it up and said "well, here is your problem, someone didn't wire it right. It
needs two circuits and they only wired in one"
Well she called me and told me this and I got on line and looked up the
model number:

UBHC17J14SHH and according to the on line documentation it says it is a
single circuit system. Does it sound like we are dealing with people who
don't know what they are doing? Should we call a RUUD dealer and pay for a
different service call? Could it possibly be missing something that is
actually part of the heating unit?
The heat coming from the vents is luke warm. I have never lived in a house
with electric heater type furnace so don't know what is correct but would
think the output would be greater than luke warm.
I know the AC guys don't like AHC (American Home Shield) but we got it cause
my folks are on a fixed income but at this point I am beginning to question
the guys who have been out there..Just wanted to run this all by some more
experienced folks and see if they think we should go thru an actual RUUD
dealer to have it looked at.
Thanks so much!
John


Hello group..
Thanks to all for the info, both positive and negative. First, the reason we
have AHS for my folks is they are on a fixed income. If they had a
catastrophic failure of something like an AC unit would seriously cripple
their finances. I have helped them with as much as I can possibly afford. I
do understand your points about second rate service from them. It didn't used
to be this way but sure has become evident in the last few years. This
service call is a perfect example given the first guy didn't see that one
breaker had nothing connected to it!
As some had noticed by the model number, it is a 14kv furnace. BUT, after
looking it over it has become evident that the problem lies in the fact it is
not hooked up properly. Upon removing the inspection panel my folks
discovered that one of the two built in breakers is not even hooked up. Either
the feed wire is not heavy enough to carry the entire load of both circuits so
the bozo installed just hooked up the larger of the two, or sometime down the
line someone got in there and messed with it. I was looking at the product
literature and from what I see, given the distance from the circuit panel it
would take either 4 or 6 guage wire to supply the furnace on a single circuit
on a 90 amp. Mom says there is one, 60 amp breaker to the unit so my guess is
they didn't run enough power to it.
The house is less than four years old. Only caviat is, the house was a bank
repo so we have no information on it's history and had to buy it as-is.. My
best guess it was a lower priced house but it does seem to be built solidly.
It has nice, double pane windows and all the doors are very good insulated
doors and they seal properly. In the attic, the insulation is a white fluffy
blown in matter and is about 12-14" thick in most places. Finding the rafters
to tranverse across the attic is tricky.
We have a message into the only local RUUD dealer in the Austin TX area but
have not heard back from him as of yet. We are bypassing AHS on this one,
plus the last guy said he is going to report to AHS that the unit is wired
incorrectly so they will probably disqualify the unit for future repairs. My
best guess is we are going to have to hire an electrican to run a new feed
into the furnace closet to supply the other strips. Funny too, even when we
had really cold weather last month (down into the low 20's which is not normal
for central Texas) the thing still kept the house at 73 even though it ran a
lot.
Thanks Turtle for posting that recall notice. I am going to check that
Saturday when I can get out to their house. I doubt there unit will fall in
that as their house was built much later than the dates on that recall but who
know's they may have had an old one sitting around.
Thanks again to all and hopefully we can get this straightened out properly
without breaking the bank.
John

This is Turtle.

Some of the Dated codes of the recalled furnaces was sold as late as 1998 and
the date codes was from the 1992 to the 1995 models.

Well to AHS. If they disqualify you. You demand your money back. If you bought a
insurance on your car and a month later they cancelled you. Would you want your
money back ?

Now just running a 10 KW electric strips on a 1,500 sq. ft. house. It may run a
lot but that is usely all FHA requires as heat on the FHA house in the Southern
areas. I don't think I would be spending a bunch of money on changing something
that does not seem to be a problem. I have install a bunch of FHA or general
builder houses with only 10KW on the 1,200 to the 1,600 sq. ft. homes after
looking at the heat load requirements and it not calling for more than 10KW of
heat.

Now 60 amp breaker will carry a 10 KW heat furnace.
Now 80 or 90 amp breaker will carry a 15 KW furnace.

TURTLE

"m Ransley" wrote in message
...
Turtle I was not questioning or doughting you. You are always right on
with Hvac and advise.

I just asked if it could be lack of insulation.


This is Turtle.

No on Later post he said it had 12 to 14 inches of blown in fiberglass
insulation. Also he had seen it was running on 10KW elements and not running
full power at 15 KW. The thing has a 60 amp breaker and it will not carry a 15KW
electric heat element. You would need atleast a 80 amp breaker to carry a 15 KW
electric heat furnace.

TURTLE

'And you DAvey boy are the laughing stock of the industry. Everyone
knows it. Your advice is so bad its deadly. Go away davey. Nobody wants
your advice you looney hack.
Bubba '

ME: You (and your commrades) have had countless people in this NG and
in ALt.HVAC tell you that your attitude is very bad, that you have a
superiority complex, and that you are obnoxious in the way you tell HO's
to 'F off' and thru other forms of degrading vile talk .How come you
dont see the importance of relating to HO's out of politeness and
charity instead of leaving them with a worse opinion of our Trade ? If
you cant promote the hvac trade in a positive manner, then, you shouldnt
be in it nor dealing with the public in anyway. Lastly, the advice i
give (for some reason) , makes you feel insecure with the way you
respond ; theres no need to feel insecure and think you know it all
Bubba . Nor does trying to demean a fellow HVAC Tech cause you feel
insecure. Its all very uneccesary. Please dont do this anymore Bubba,
and, remember to act professional with HO's from now on. Many thanks.
Dave

(God bless).

'More proof that Davey has no clue!
Better check your math, and your code book Davey! 14KW comes out to over
58 amps @ 240 volt'


Hi Greg, Dont think we have every talked before. Are you a typical
Antagonistic person in the Hvac Trade who likes to spread sadness and
discontent like Bubba ?! Here is my reference again to amperage on a
14 kw furnace -- notice the word :"AROUND" . Please dont be a typical
Jerk , as we need people in this Trade that arent , so HO's adopt a
better impression of our Trade. Thanks much ! :

'A 14 kw. furnace should pull right around 56 amps at 240 v. with motor
running. Thats pretty close to a 60 amp breaker.

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'More proof that Davey has no clue!
Better check your math, and your code book Davey! 14KW comes out to over
58 amps @ 240 volt'


Hi Greg, Dont think we have every talked before. Are you a typical
Antagonistic person in the Hvac Trade who likes to spread sadness and
discontent like Bubba ?! Here is my reference again to amperage on a
14 kw furnace -- notice the word :"AROUND" . Please dont be a typical
Jerk , as we need people in this Trade that arent , so HO's adopt a
better impression of our Trade. Thanks much ! :

'A 14 kw. furnace should pull right around 56 amps at 240 v. with motor
running. Thats pretty close to a 60 amp breaker.


Am I a typical antagonistic person in the HVAC trade? No I don't believe so.
It just when I see someone posting wrong information I like to see that it
gets corrected. If you fit that situation, so be it.
No where will codes allow you to put a even 56 amp load on a 60 amp breaker,
using you numbers.
If you want pretty close, heck a 50 amp breaker is pretty close too, but in
reality a 75 or 80 amp breaker would be required for a 56-58 amp load.
Pretty common knowledge.
Give correct information, and my bet is you will be left alone. As long as
you keep posting wrong information you will get flamed, simple as that.
Greg

Dave knows no better heck a 80 % furnace is close to a 90% in Daves
mind, He thinks Goodman is as good as the rest , just cheaper, Right
Dave.

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:51:58 -0600, (HVAC fella)
wrote:

'And you DAvey boy are the laughing stock of the industry. Everyone
knows it. Your advice is so bad its deadly. Go away davey. Nobody wants
your advice you looney hack.
Bubba '

ME: You (and your commrades) have had countless people in this NG and
in ALt.HVAC tell you that your attitude is very bad, that you have a
superiority complex, and that you are obnoxious in the way you tell HO's
to 'F off' and thru other forms of degrading vile talk .How come you
dont see the importance of relating to HO's out of politeness and
charity instead of leaving them with a worse opinion of our Trade ? If
you cant promote the hvac trade in a positive manner, then, you shouldnt
be in it nor dealing with the public in anyway. Lastly, the advice i
give (for some reason) , makes you feel insecure with the way you
respond ; theres no need to feel insecure and think you know it all
Bubba . Nor does trying to demean a fellow HVAC Tech cause you feel
insecure. Its all very uneccesary. Please dont do this anymore Bubba,
and, remember to act professional with HO's from now on. Many thanks.
Dave

(God bless).

God bless doesnt cut it with me. You are still a hack and always be a
hack. Your advice is stupid, sucks and will most likely get someone
hurt. Now..............Blow Me you idiot Dave.
Bubba

"HVAC fella" wrote in message
...
'Upon removing the inspection panel my folks discovered that one of the
two built in breakers is not even hooked up. '

Had one exactly like this 2 weeks ago. It was a 14 kw and only 10 kw was
being energized because the one breaker in Furnace wasnt hooked up.


Ummm.....Davey....how is that possible? Explain in detail so that we that
know can laugh like never before.

So..you got 10kW out of a strip that WASNT 10kw.....amazing...


'Mom says there is one, 60 amp breaker to the unit so my guess is they
didn't run enough power to it'

I think you are correct. A 14 kw. furnace should pull right around 56
amps at 240 v. with motor running. Thats pretty close to a 60 amp
breaker.



LOL....you dont know a thing do you....

Try 58 amps and a 75-80 amp breaker.
Also...how can a unit, that used induction style elements that wrap around
the backside of the blower be stainless steel?
Post a model number or admit you are blowing smoke up the asses of those
that do not know better.

You sir, are no more a tech than I am the president.
You are nothing but a danger to anyone that even considers you otherwise.

In article ,
(HVAC fella) wrote:

'Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel
electric heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing.
Davey i did not know that they were stainless steel elements and not
straight enduction heat elements. Did you special order them with
stainless steel elements in them ?
TURTLE'

Turtle, They are stainless steel from the Factory and the Rheem
Electric Furnace brochure says explicitly that they are Stainless Steel
for greater longevity. You can call me Davey, but i prefer Dave. (Im
enjoying the exchange over in Alt. Hvac -- i think you might be winning


Awww isn't it cute! :-) Turtle found a friend.

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(HVAC fella) wrote:

'Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel
electric heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing.
Davey i did not know that they were stainless steel elements and not
straight enduction heat elements. Did you special order them with
stainless steel elements in them ?
TURTLE'

Turtle, They are stainless steel from the Factory and the Rheem
Electric Furnace brochure says explicitly that they are Stainless Steel
for greater longevity. You can call me Davey, but i prefer Dave. (Im
enjoying the exchange over in Alt. Hvac -- i think you might be winning


Awww isn't it cute! :-) Turtle found a friend.

It would be the only one that Daves got.
Damn..did hell freeze over and thats why Daves looking for new buddies now?

"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" wrote in
message ...

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(HVAC fella) wrote:

'Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel
electric heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing.
Davey i did not know that they were stainless steel elements and not
straight enduction heat elements. Did you special order them with
stainless steel elements in them ?
TURTLE'

Turtle, They are stainless steel from the Factory and the Rheem
Electric Furnace brochure says explicitly that they are Stainless Steel
for greater longevity. You can call me Davey, but i prefer Dave. (Im
enjoying the exchange over in Alt. Hvac -- i think you might be winning


Awww isn't it cute! :-) Turtle found a friend.

It would be the only one that Daves got.
Damn..did hell freeze over and thats why Daves looking for new buddies now?


This is Turtle.

Sorry Bill i had you in my kill file but I took you out so I could read the
Stupid stuff you like to come up with. Well Bill and Fart Breeze I have some
news for you that is fixing to open up at alt.hvac and that is basicly that Paul
was not one of the founding members of the alt.hvac at all. He was just a poster
that was around at the time and had nothing to do with the making of the
newsgroup. Also Paul's lie all these years is being exposed and his suck up
buddy like yourself are tring to cover this up by bad mouthing anybody that talk
about the making of the newsgroup alt.hvac or sci.engi.heat-vent-ac or it's
origination. Now you better try to stand with Paul in his monent of trouble for
being cought up with in lying all these years as being the father of the hvac
groups and when the trueth comes out. It hurt when you see the lies that have
been said all these years come to light.

So be ready to try to stand with Paul and his falling from power for he will
need all the help he can get to over come it. Paul has hisself and 4 other suck
up's to defend him in his lie. So stand with him as best you can when the trueth
comes out. Also try your best to discredit me for the best way to cover up a lie
is to discredit the persons bring the lie out as just a lie and nothing else.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
news

"Steve@carolinabreezehvac" wrote
in
message ...

"bill" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(HVAC fella) wrote:

'Hey Davey , i like that statement about liking the Stainless Steel
electric heating elements wrapped around in side the blower housing.
Davey i did not know that they were stainless steel elements and not
straight enduction heat elements. Did you special order them with
stainless steel elements in them ?
TURTLE'

Turtle, They are stainless steel from the Factory and the Rheem
Electric Furnace brochure says explicitly that they are Stainless
Steel
for greater longevity. You can call me Davey, but i prefer Dave.
(Im
enjoying the exchange over in Alt. Hvac -- i think you might be
winning


Awww isn't it cute! :-) Turtle found a friend.

It would be the only one that Daves got.
Damn..did hell freeze over and thats why Daves looking for new buddies
now?


This is Turtle.

Sorry Bill i had you in my kill file but I took you out so I could read
the
Stupid stuff you like to come up with. Well Bill and Fart Breeze I have
some
news for you that is fixing to open up at alt.hvac and that is basicly
that Paul
was not one of the founding members of the alt.hvac at all. He was just a
poster
that was around at the time and had nothing to do with the making of the
newsgroup. Also Paul's lie all these years is being exposed and his suck
up
buddy like yourself are tring to cover this up by bad mouthing anybody
that talk
about the making of the newsgroup alt.hvac or sci.engi.heat-vent-ac or
it's
origination. Now you better try to stand with Paul in his monent of
trouble for
being cought up with in lying all these years as being the father of the
hvac
groups and when the trueth comes out. It hurt when you see the lies that
have
been said all these years come to light.

So be ready to try to stand with Paul and his falling from power for he
will
need all the help he can get to over come it. Paul has hisself and 4 other
suck
up's to defend him in his lie. So stand with him as best you can when the
trueth
comes out. Also try your best to discredit me for the best way to cover up
a lie
is to discredit the persons bring the lie out as just a lie and nothing
else.

TURTLE



I might suggest Terry, that you talk to Noon, and find out what was said
during our 2.5 hour phone call yesterday.
Also I suggest that you learn how to use Google and look again.....I was
there...were you?

In article ,
"TURTLE" wrote:

This is Turtle.

Sorry Bill i had you in my kill file but I took you out so I could read the
Stupid stuff you like to come up with.

Liar. Your nose problem would never allow you to plonk me.

Well Bill and Fart Breeze I have some
news for you that is fixing to open up at alt.hvac and that is basicly that
Paul
was not one of the founding members of the alt.hvac at all. He was just a
poster
that was around at the time and had nothing to do with the making of the
newsgroup.

Oh really.

Also Paul's lie all these years is being exposed and his suck up
buddy like yourself are tring to cover this up by bad mouthing anybody that
talk
about the making of the newsgroup alt.hvac or sci.engi.heat-vent-ac or it's
origination. Now you better try to stand with Paul in his monent of trouble
for
being cought up with in lying all these years as being the father of the hvac
groups and when the trueth comes out. It hurt when you see the lies that have
been said all these years come to light.

So be ready to try to stand with Paul and his falling from power for he will
need all the help he can get to over come it. Paul has hisself and 4 other
suck
up's to defend him in his lie. So stand with him as best you can when the
trueth
comes out. Also try your best to discredit me for the best way to cover up a
lie
is to discredit the persons bring the lie out as just a lie and nothing else.

TURTLE

You need to tell somebody who gives a ****. I find somebody I'll point
him your way.

Till then I'd rather discuss you.

Does everyone know you are an unlicensed hack?