Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring so I
don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull to do
this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom. I
wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one fuse,
but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis McEniry wrote:
Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring so I
don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull to do
this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom. I
wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one fuse,
but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis
You have a multi wire branch circuit. The two receptacles are intended
to be on separate circuits. There is a small tab that connects the two
terminals to each other on each side of the receptacle. Use a needle
nosed plier to break off the tab between the black and red wires on the
brass screw side of the receptacle and you will eliminate the 240 volt
dead short you have created across the two brass screws. If you look at
the old receptacle very closely you will find that it had the connecting
tab on that side of the receptacle removed.
--
Tom H

Louis -

What was the red wire hooked to before? If nothing, then it perhaps was
run to feed an additional future circuit, but that's unlikely. Another
guess is it could have at one time been a 220v outlet, changed later by
someone to a 120v.

Is there a seperate ground (bare) copper wire?

If so, cap the red wire, shut off and put some elec tape over the
breaker connected to the red wire, or label it such that you don't turn
it back on later. (If the red and black wires are connected to a single
breaker, then this was at one time a 220v circuit - I'd recc you call
an electrician as the breaker needs to be pulled and replaced with
seperate individual ones.

Then hook the bare wire to the ground screw, black wire to brass screw
(right side, as viewed from the front), and white wire to the silver
screw (left side).

Or, what Tom said!!!!

Louis McEniry wrote:
Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring so I
don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull to do
this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom. I
wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one fuse,
but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis
A couple of questions. Do you live in Canada? Did that receptacle
serve your kitchen at one time?
--
Tom H

It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws. (The white
neutral should go to the tin plated screws, the hot to the brass - the
short blade on the receptacle should be hot, the long blade should be
neutral.)

I think the easiest thing to do is simply tape up one of the hots.

Louis McEniry wrote:

Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring so I
don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull to do
this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom. I
wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one fuse,
but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Electricity is not something to dabble with.

Aw, I disagree. It's got:

Intrigue (how the hell do I do this)
Drama (did I do it right)
Action (I'm doing it)
Suspense (will it work)
Fear (where is the smoke coming from)
Comedy (ZAP! uh, guess I should have turned off the breaker)
I think electricity is the most dabblistic of em all.

"Bennett Price" wrote in message
...
It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws. (The white
neutral should go to the tin plated screws, the hot to the brass - the
short blade on the receptacle should be hot, the long blade should be
neutral.)

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.

Sounds like it was originally wired properly and most likely to feed a
kitchen outlet.

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2005-01-04, Noozer wrote:

"Bennett Price" wrote:

It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots
(black and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the
little strap on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass
screws.

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single
outlets on a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done
correctly.

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

I don't think so, but I could be wrong and I would want to check it
before I did it. It is required to use the double breaker when wiring a
240V circuit, but this is two 120V circuits.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

On 2005-01-04, Noozer wrote:

"Bennett Price" wrote:

It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws.

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

Hi Matt,

Yes there is a separate ground.

It was just a receptacle in a basement 'kitchen' area. ....Its funny...I am
confused but there was a 220 volt plug in the same area for a heavy
heater...but I think that was changed also...so I was a little confused by
the plug itself. So as far as I know it was just a regular receptacle.
Also, I didn't mention, but I think the 'branch circuit' idea is correct
because I am having trouble getting one other light to work and I think
there may be a connection between the two.

I had capped the red wire yesterday out of desperation...but now I will
check the side of the receptacle, clip it, and reconnect the red.

Thanks a lot.

Louis


"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Louis -

What was the red wire hooked to before? If nothing, then it perhaps was
run to feed an additional future circuit, but that's unlikely. Another
guess is it could have at one time been a 220v outlet, changed later by
someone to a 120v.

Is there a seperate ground (bare) copper wire?

If so, cap the red wire, shut off and put some elec tape over the
breaker connected to the red wire, or label it such that you don't turn
it back on later. (If the red and black wires are connected to a single
breaker, then this was at one time a 220v circuit - I'd recc you call
an electrician as the breaker needs to be pulled and replaced with
seperate individual ones.

Then hook the bare wire to the ground screw, black wire to brass screw
(right side, as viewed from the front), and white wire to the silver
screw (left side).

Hi Tom,

Yes I am in Canada. And yes it served a secondary kitchen area in my
basement.

Louis

"HorneTD" wrote in message
k.net...
Louis McEniry wrote:
Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring
so I don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull
to do this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom.
I wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one
fuse, but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis
A couple of questions. Do you live in Canada? Did that receptacle serve
your kitchen at one time?
--
Tom H

Thanks Matt...

I agree..its fun.

So long as you know enough to wire according to code and be super careful.




"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Aw, I disagree. It's got:

Intrigue (how the hell do I do this)
Drama (did I do it right)
Action (I'm doing it)
Suspense (will it work)
Fear (where is the smoke coming from)
Comedy (ZAP! uh, guess I should have turned off the breaker)
I think electricity is the most dabblistic of em all.

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2005-01-04, Noozer wrote:


"Bennett Price" wrote:


It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws.

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.


Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.
--
Tom H

Yes, I think that is the most likely answer.

Thanks again to all for your help.

Louis

"Noozer" wrote in message
news:0dACd.691453$Pl.399595@pd7tw1no...

"Bennett Price" wrote in message
...
It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws. (The white
neutral should go to the tin plated screws, the hot to the brass - the
short blade on the receptacle should be hot, the long blade should be
neutral.)

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets
on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.

Sounds like it was originally wired properly and most likely to feed a
kitchen outlet.

On 2005-01-04, HorneTD wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.

OK, but I believe the OP was moving a split-circuit receptacle. I
would assume that this requires meeting the new code requirements.

Cheers, Wayne

Hmmmm no problem man!

But, as you probably know -

Clipping the receptacle will not get your other light working.... if
the work you have done is related to the now non functioning light, you
need to find the lead that feeds the other light and get it some juice.
Good luck!

Matt

Not wanting to engage in this debate because its over my head.

But, I can add:

I was moving a receptacle.

The wiring in the fuse box is "split" on two 15amp fuses red on left fuse,
black on the right.

Louis


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2005-01-04, HorneTD wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.

OK, but I believe the OP was moving a split-circuit receptacle. I
would assume that this requires meeting the new code requirements.

Cheers, Wayne

Louis McEniry wrote:
"HorneTD" wrote in message
k.net...

Louis McEniry wrote:

Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring
so I don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very carefull
to do this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my bedroom.
I wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could duplicate the
wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I don't
know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one
fuse, but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis
A couple of questions. Do you live in Canada? Did that receptacle serve
your kitchen at one time?
--
Tom H

Hi Tom,

Yes I am in Canada. And yes it served a secondary kitchen area in my
basement.

Louis

The split receptacles with a separate circuit to the top and bottom
outlet were required by the Canadian electric code for kitchen
receptacles.
--
Tom H

Thanks Again Tom...good to know why that was done.

I really appreciate the help!

Louis

"HorneTD" wrote in message
k.net...
Louis McEniry wrote:
"HorneTD" wrote in message
k.net...

Louis McEniry wrote:

Hello,

I dabble with electrical. And generally, I will 'copy' existing wiring
so I don't screw things up too much. I thought I was being very
carefull to do this in this case.


I moved a recepticle through a floor to have an extra plug in my
bedroom. I wrote the wiring scheme of the receptacle down so I could
duplicate the wiring upstairs.

It was a three wire, 12 guage, receptacle. Why its three wires, I
don't know.

The scheme on the back of the receptacle I though was:

Left side Right side
Black White

Red


From the fuse box, the black and Red wires were each on its own fuse, ie
both hot....again why, I do not know.


The problem is that the above scheme doesn't work... I can input one
fuse, but when putting in the second, it blows.


Can anyone help me ???

Thanks!

Louis

Louis
A couple of questions. Do you live in Canada? Did that receptacle serve
your kitchen at one time?
--
Tom H
Hi Tom,

Yes I am in Canada. And yes it served a secondary kitchen area in my
basement.

Louis

The split receptacles with a separate circuit to the top and bottom outlet
were required by the Canadian electric code for kitchen receptacles.
--
Tom H

"Marilyn & Bob" wrote in message
news:ZmVCd.23388$152.9433@trndny01...
If it is a kitchen, whether you use it or not, what you did IS a code
violation. There is nothing to stop the next owner of your house from
using
the kitchen.

How can it be a violation?

He REMOVED an outlet from a kitchen and installed a new outlet from those
two circuits in a NEW location. He didn't add anything to the kitchen area.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:42:13 GMT, Wayne Whitney
wrote:

On 2005-01-04, Noozer wrote:

"Bennett Price" wrote:

It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws.

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP

No, it's not a 240v circuit. It's just two 120v circuit feeding the
small appliance circuit. To save wire, some people run 12/3 rather
than two 12/2's.

had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne


imho,

tom @ www.URLBee.com

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:21:58 GMT, HorneTD
wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:
On 2005-01-04, Noozer wrote:


"Bennett Price" wrote:


It sounds as if the original receptacle was wired for two hots (black
and red). This is done, illegally I think, by breaking the little strap
on the receptacle that connects the two hot brass screws.

Illegally? I don't think so. It's quite acceptable to feed single outlets on
a dual recepticle from multiple circuits - if done correctly.


Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

Cheers, Wayne

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.


Curious, do you have a section? I understand you might be referencing
Canada's regs, so I just want to know the basis.

I mean, a whole house's disconnect can be six seperate breakers, so
why a receptacle is required to be one?

Thank you for your help,

tom @ www.ChopURL.com

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 18:28:23 GMT, Wayne Whitney
wrote:

On 2005-01-04, HorneTD wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.

OK, but I believe the OP was moving a split-circuit receptacle. I
would assume that this requires meeting the new code requirements.


I think you are right about meeting current codes. If you do repair
or installion of equipment, unless the code allows for certain
existing conditions, i believe you need to do work to today's
requirements.

Cheers, Wayne


later,

tom @ www.FreelancingProjects.com

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 13:40:08 -0500, "Louis McEniry"
wrote:

Not wanting to engage in this debate because its over my head.

But, I can add:

I was moving a receptacle.

moving meaing you installed it in a new location. So it was a new
receptacle?




The wiring in the fuse box is "split" on two 15amp fuses red on left fuse,
black on the right.

Louis


"Wayne Whitney" wrote in message
...
On 2005-01-04, HorneTD wrote:

Wayne Whitney wrote:

Doesn't doing this require that both circuits be protected by the same
circuit breaker, i.e. a double-pole breaker? It soounds like the OP
had separate OCPDs on the two legs of the multiwire duplex receptacle.

In new installations all of the devices on a yoke or strap must be
deenergized by a single switch, breaker, or pull out but that
requirement is relatively recent. There is no requirement to alter
existing circuits when the code changes.

OK, but I believe the OP was moving a split-circuit receptacle. I
would assume that this requires meeting the new code requirements.

Cheers, Wayne



thanks,

tom