Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 8:02:12 AM UTC-5, dan wrote:
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and
when it kicks off?
You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump
ahead of it. Is that right?
Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch
malfunction.

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 06:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:
Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and
when it kicks off?

Good question.

All I know is that I tested the bladder pressure with a bicycle PSI meter
when I recently replaced a "plug" that blew out in the back of the water
pump.

That 1-inch diameter pipe plug was white plastic and it apparently worked
its way out over time (probably since the pump was put there decades ago).

Earlier this week I lost thousands of gallons of water out that open
one-inch threaded hole in the back of the pressure pump before I knew what
was happening.

I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered
so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had
brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch
plugs.

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

Since I had the whole thing down for a day there was no pressure whatsoever
at the house so I measured the bladder pressure at 20 PSI (which I thought
was low but it's the lowest it will ever be because the water was out for a
day while I was running around to stores).

I don't know if it's the pressure switch so I'm looking up how to test that.
I will try to get some readings today as this problem only started after I
had replaced that one plug.

I don't think the white plastic 1-inch plug "blew out" by the way, but only
based on observation that the threads weren't stripped. It would screw back
in if I had wanted to re-use it, but it was also melted at one point and was
pin holed by that melt so I didn't want to risk re-using it.

You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump
ahead of it. Is that right?

I don't know what to call it but it's the only pressure pump.
The water comes from the well to the tanks by one pump.
And then the tanks feed what I'm calling the booster pump.
I guess I should call it a pressure pump instead.

The pressure pump has an on/off pressure switch on it.
That pressure switch turns the pressure pump on and off.

From there it goes into a human sized pressure tank with a bladder.
The air valve on top read 22psi when the pipes were open so it can't get
lower than that. The 22psi is the pressure inside the air bladder.

I think it's supposed to be maybe 10 pounds higher so I can pump it up once
I check that out. I wonder if that alone caused the problem but I haven't
touched that part of the system and it wasn't happening (that I know of)
before I replaced the plugs.

But I can't see how replacing the plugs caused the problem either.
I haven't measured the water pressure at the house but it spurts out good.

Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch
malfunction.

I don't know if it's pumping air but I don't think there is air in this
system other than, perhaps, maybe the weeping brass plug is causing air to
be sucked in.

Thanks for your questions.
Today I'm going to run a pressure test.

dan writes:

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

I'd make sure that's fixed right before worrying about the pump turning on.

--
Dan Espen

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 12:35:49 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...


I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered
so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had
brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch
plugs.


Make certain you have the correct plug. It might be a straight tread instead of
a pipe thread.

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

Use more and get some Megaloc. That will do it.

Testing the pressure switch is easy. What is the rating 30-50 or 40-60 or
something else. When the pressure drops low it turns the pump on when it
reaches the cutoff it shuts off. If you want take the cover off and measure
voltage and current at the load side. Make sure the switch and nipple don't
have any leaks. If you take the switch off make sure the nipple is clear, then
just replace the switch. Tape & Megaloc.

Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I am not a plumber but I have my own well so I have some familiarity with this.

Stay crusty...

--
Tekkie

"dan" wrote in message ...
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

The pressure sensor is ****ed.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:12:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The pressure sensor is ****ed.

It can't be as ****ed as you are, trolling senile pest!

--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID:

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:56:03 PM UTC-5, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, TekkieÅ* wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?
That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug..
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure..
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?
I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?
I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

This one works.
https://help.imgur.com/hc/en-us/articles/213539966-Creating-Posts-and-Sharing-to-Imgur

That hissing sound might be a clue. Can you hook an air compressor into your system
somewhere to pressurize the system? Don't let it pressurize above 50 pounds or so to avoid
blowing things apart. It would be nice if you could plug the air into the system somewhere besides the plug
you're working with.

On 6/5/2021 2:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

Prior to operation, with the tank, empty of water, the pressure should
be 2psi below the cut-on pressure.


I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?


The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff
pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only
thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If
it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump.

The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure
anymore.

The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all.

On 6/5/2021 7:29 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/5/2021 2:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the
time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually
overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads
intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal
plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe
wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever
stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump
turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting
forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water
pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no
water?

Prior to operation, with the tank, empty of water, the pressure should
be 2psi below the cut-on pressure.

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you
post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?


The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff
pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only
thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If
it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump.

The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure
anymore.

The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all.



Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not
pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in
continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B,
and discovered this while researching the use of it.

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:50:47 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff
pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only
thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If
it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump.

This is probably what made the plastic plug pop out without stripping.

The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure
anymore.

I think it's not getting to cutoff pressure because I measured it more
closely and it took less than five minutes to go from 20psi to 52psi
but the pump wouldn't shut off.

Once off, the pressure remains for hours (overnight is no problem but half a
day with water use it what it took so it was only two manual pressure cycles
for the whole day today, with showers and washing dishes included).


The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all.


Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not
pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in
continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B,
and discovered this while researching the use of it.

I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on
the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I
thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it
likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses.

It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard
to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I
can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the
pump off).

What I might do tomorrow is buy a new pressure switch and see how that pipe
connects to it. Or, I may just tighten up the pipe fittings. I don't know
how these fail so I don't know what is the most likely to be successful.

I can post pictures but I have to sign up for imagur first I think.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 04:48:24 -0200, dan wrote:

I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on
the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I
thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it
likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses.

It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard
to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I
can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the
pump off).

Put a balloon or a condom on it and see how quickly it inflates.

dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?


There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?\

3/8". Pull the gauge and check the orifice, it's probably plugged with
gunk. Clean it out and it should be good to go.

dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?


BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37#
if the switch is configured for 40-60).

On 6/5/2021 11:48 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:50:47 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff
pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only
thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If
it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump.

This is probably what made the plastic plug pop out without stripping.

The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure
anymore.

I think it's not getting to cutoff pressure because I measured it more
closely and it took less than five minutes to go from 20psi to 52psi
but the pump wouldn't shut off.

What is your set cutoff pressure? Higher than 52? That would suggest the
pump is the problem. Otherwise, the pressure switch is not working
right. Take off the cover and see what it does.


Once off, the pressure remains for hours (overnight is no problem but half a
day with water use it what it took so it was only two manual pressure cycles
for the whole day today, with showers and washing dishes included).


The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all.


Is this pump one of those that turns off based on low flow, not
pressure. The flow sensor goes out on these, which will result in
continuous running. I recently pick up a slightly used grundfos MQ3-45B,
and discovered this while researching the use of it.

I think I found the source of the hissing which seems to be an air flow on
the pipe that connects to the bottom of the pressure switch. That pipe I
thought might contain water since it comes off the top of the pump but it
likely contains air. It seems to be the pressure that the switch senses.

The pipe to the switch to the pump carries water pressure to the switch
to active it. If there is air coming out of it, that would be surprising
to me unless there is significant air leaking into the input side of the
pump to mix into the water being pumped. Any leak on it could affect the
switch sensing, but I would also expect it to leak water when the pump
is off, unless there is a check valve between the pump and the tank. If
there is a closed valve or other restriction near the pump on that pipe
that only allows very small flow, the air leak could be lowering the
pressure seen at the switch.

The hissing could be coming from an air bleed valve on the pipe from
pump the tank if there is air leakage on the input lines. Otherwise,
find and fix the leak to see if that is causing the problem.


It's way down at the floor level only an inch off the concrete so it's hard
to tell but I can put my hand there and feel a slight flow of air even as I
can't pinpoint the hissing due to the pump noise (it doesn't hiss with the
pump off).

What I might do tomorrow is buy a new pressure switch and see how that pipe
connects to it. Or, I may just tighten up the pipe fittings. I don't know
how these fail so I don't know what is the most likely to be successful.

I can post pictures but I have to sign up for imagur first I think.


The first thing I'd look at is the pressure switch.Turn off the power.
Most of the ones I've used have a little nut at the top. Remove that and
lift the top off, to inspect the mechanism and contacts. Look for two
contacts welded together. You can usually operate the switch mechanism
by pushing down or lifting up on the little metal plate the the bottom
of the big spring pushes against. The contacts should close when you
push down, and open when you lift up on that plate.

On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37#
if the switch is configured for 40-60).

Thanks for that information.

I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a
"Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013,
Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the
bottom.

Searching I think it's may be this one at Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Square-9013-F.../dp/B00CONESDG

The pressure gauge might be this one
https://www.amazon.com/Brands2O-TC21.../dp/B000FKDLC4

I'm not sure how to find the bent brass piping though.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:40:39 -0700, Bob F wrote:
What is your set cutoff pressure? Higher than 52? That would suggest the
pump is the problem. Otherwise, the pressure switch is not working
right. Take off the cover and see what it does.

The pressure switch has printing inside the cap saying it's 30 to 50psi.
The bladder is only at about 20 psi now (slowly dropping as I use a tester).
It doesn't seem to matter how long the pump runs - it tops out at 52psi.

The pipe to the switch to the pump carries water pressure to the switch
to active it.

It's critical for me to figure out if water or air is supposed to be in that
pipe that comes from the top of the pump and goes to the bottom of the
pressure switch.

If it's air, then that's the problem as I can feel the hissing.
But if it's supposed to be water - then there's a different problem.

If there is air coming out of it, that would be surprising
to me unless there is significant air leaking into the input side of the
pump to mix into the water being pumped. Any leak on it could affect the
switch sensing, but I would also expect it to leak water when the pump
is off, unless there is a check valve between the pump and the tank.

Now that I swapped the two 1 inch plugs there's no longer any water leak.
But the air leak exists and the pump doesn't shut off.

If
there is a closed valve or other restriction near the pump on that pipe
that only allows very small flow, the air leak could be lowering the
pressure seen at the switch.

The water valves to and away from the pump are open (save for the emergency
bypass water valve which is closed).


The hissing could be coming from an air bleed valve on the pipe from
pump the tank if there is air leakage on the input lines. Otherwise,
find and fix the leak to see if that is causing the problem.

Easier said than done.
It's an inch from the concrete in a maze of pipes.

The most important thing is to find out whether the pressure switch uses air
or water because if it's water something else must be wrong.

The gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600,
Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" is all I know.

The first thing I'd look at is the pressure switch.

I agree. The pump isn't getting the signal to turn off.
It is getting a signal to turn on though.

Turn off the power.
Most of the ones I've used have a little nut at the top. Remove that and
lift the top off, to inspect the mechanism and contacts.

It's this one I'm pretty sure.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...21BP/100183740

Look for two
contacts welded together. You can usually operate the switch mechanism
by pushing down or lifting up on the little metal plate the the bottom
of the big spring pushes against. The contacts should close when you
push down, and open when you lift up on that plate.

They all seem to work when I tested them with the power on using a
screwdriver to push. I think it's the air leaking.

I need to find out if air or water is supposed to be in that pipe.

On 6/6/2021 12:37 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 10:40:39 -0700, Bob F wrote:
What is your set cutoff pressure? Higher than 52? That would suggest the
pump is the problem. Otherwise, the pressure switch is not working
right. Take off the cover and see what it does.

The pressure switch has printing inside the cap saying it's 30 to 50psi.
The bladder is only at about 20 psi now (slowly dropping as I use a tester).
It doesn't seem to matter how long the pump runs - it tops out at 52psi.

The pipe to the switch to the pump carries water pressure to the switch
to active it.

It's critical for me to figure out if water or air is supposed to be in that
pipe that comes from the top of the pump and goes to the bottom of the
pressure switch.

If it's air, then that's the problem as I can feel the hissing.
But if it's supposed to be water - then there's a different problem.

If there is air coming out of it, that would be surprising
to me unless there is significant air leaking into the input side of the
pump to mix into the water being pumped. Any leak on it could affect the
switch sensing, but I would also expect it to leak water when the pump
is off, unless there is a check valve between the pump and the tank.

Now that I swapped the two 1 inch plugs there's no longer any water leak.
But the air leak exists and the pump doesn't shut off.

If
there is a closed valve or other restriction near the pump on that pipe
that only allows very small flow, the air leak could be lowering the
pressure seen at the switch.

The water valves to and away from the pump are open (save for the emergency
bypass water valve which is closed).


The hissing could be coming from an air bleed valve on the pipe from
pump the tank if there is air leakage on the input lines. Otherwise,
find and fix the leak to see if that is causing the problem.

Easier said than done.
It's an inch from the concrete in a maze of pipes.

The most important thing is to find out whether the pressure switch uses air
or water because if it's water something else must be wrong.

The gray cap says the switch is a "Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600,
Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013, Ser B, On 30, off 50" is all I know.

The first thing I'd look at is the pressure switch.

I agree. The pump isn't getting the signal to turn off.
It is getting a signal to turn on though.

It is in the "ON" mode (closed contacts). When it gets to the cutoff
pressure it is supposed to open the contacts to stop power from getting
to the pump. It is not a "signal", it is power on or off. If the switch
is in the ON position (contacts closed - touching their "mate", the pump
will run. If it is not, it will not run

If the switch looks good, and turns on/off when you move the plate under
the spring, try adjusting the pressure to a lower cutoff pressure.
Instructions are in the cover. Just remember how far you turn it, so
you can put it back at the original setting if needed. You could adjust
it with the pump running and you would quickly know that the change
worked. But, there is power on those switch contacts so be very careful
and maybe even wear rubber gloves.

Also, try operating the switch when the pressure is at your high value.
it should flip to the off position much easier than it did at no
pressure. That says - adjust the pressure lower. If it does not get
easier, that says pressure is not getting to the switch mechanism.

If you start with the pressure drained, watch the plate at the bottom of
the spring as the pressure builds. You should see it slowly move. If
not, the switch is dead or the pressure it not getting to it.




Turn off the power.
Most of the ones I've used have a little nut at the top. Remove that and
lift the top off, to inspect the mechanism and contacts.

It's this one I'm pretty sure.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D...21BP/100183740

Look for two
contacts welded together. You can usually operate the switch mechanism
by pushing down or lifting up on the little metal plate the the bottom
of the big spring pushes against. The contacts should close when you
push down, and open when you lift up on that plate.

They all seem to work when I tested them with the power on using a
screwdriver to push. I think it's the air leaking.

I need to find out if air or water is supposed to be in that pipe.

A water pump should not be pumping air. Do you get bubbles coming out of
the taps regularly? Do you get a blast of air when you drain the water
from the system? You could try running a hose from a valve that taps off
it before the tank (that would divert air) into a bucket of water. Do
you see bubbles? If you see air in the pumped water, you likely have a
leak in the pipes before the pump somewhere you need to fix. Run the
hose into an full inverted glass jug in the bucket, and you can actually
see how fast air is coming out.

Air would also likely fill the pressure tank, and gradually reduce it's
water capacity over time. That should show when you drain the tank.
(Blasts as the water runs out)

Older pumps with non-bladder tanks used to have a system that would suck
a little air in through the input line that would get pumped into he
tank to make up for air that gets dissolved into the water and pumped
away. If your system used to be one of those, that could be where the
air is coming from. The water outlet from the pump, and the pressure
valve and pressure switch are usually at the top, and the pipe to the
switch could be right where that air collects. Air is less likely to
plug the pressure switch inlet tube, so they might have chosen the high
spot on the pump to supply the switch.

Which brings to mind - if the pressure switch otherwise operates
properly (turn on/off as you manipulate it), you could have rust or crud
plugging up the tubes or inlet of that switch.

On 6/6/2021 12:20 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37#
if the switch is configured for 40-60).

Thanks for that information.

I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a
"Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013,
Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the
bottom.

Searching I think it's may be this one at Amazon
https://www.amazon.com/Square-9013-F.../dp/B00CONESDG

The pressure gauge might be this one
https://www.amazon.com/Brands2O-TC21.../dp/B000FKDLC4

I'm not sure how to find the bent brass piping though.


Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch?

What value does it read? 0 or some higher value?

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:49:32 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch?
What value does it read? 0 or some higher value?

Let me know if the imgur image uploads works.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

The pressure at the bladder is 52psi.
I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck.

The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure
switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:49:32 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch?
What value does it read? 0 or some higher value?

Let me know if the imgur image uploads works.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

The pressure at the bladder is 52psi.
I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck.

The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure
switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:45:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:
A water pump should not be pumping air. Do you get bubbles coming out of
the taps regularly? Do you get a blast of air when you drain the water
from the system?

Never any air in any line at the house or at the garden hoses.

Here are some pictures showing the pump and the copper pressure pipe.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

I think the one inch plastic plug overheated because the pump wasn't
shutting off except by thermal cutoff after hours of running wild.

At the same time a garden hose blew out in the middle so I think the
pressure may have gone sky high (but I don't know that for a fact).

You could try running a hose from a valve that taps off
it before the tank (that would divert air) into a bucket of water. Do
you see bubbles?

No bubbles. I think the copper pipe is "supposed" to carry air.
But I don't know that though. I wish I knew for sure.

But everything is working except the pump shutting off.

If you see air in the pumped water, you likely have a
leak in the pipes before the pump somewhere you need to fix.

I've never seen air in any water output.

Run the
hose into an full inverted glass jug in the bucket, and you can actually
see how fast air is coming out.

Garden hose?
The one connected to the house?
No air in them.
I'm positive.

Air would also likely fill the pressure tank, and gradually reduce it's
water capacity over time. That should show when you drain the tank.
(Blasts as the water runs out)

I don't think it's air in the water.

Older pumps with non-bladder tanks used to have a system that would suck
a little air in through the input line that would get pumped into he
tank to make up for air that gets dissolved into the water and pumped
away. If your system used to be one of those, that could be where the
air is coming from. The water outlet from the pump, and the pressure
valve and pressure switch are usually at the top, and the pipe to the
switch could be right where that air collects. Air is less likely to
plug the pressure switch inlet tube, so they might have chosen the high
spot on the pump to supply the switch.

Take a look at the pictures.
The main question is WHAT is supposed to be inside that copper pipe?
air or water

Which brings to mind - if the pressure switch otherwise operates
properly (turn on/off as you manipulate it), you could have rust or crud
plugging up the tubes or inlet of that switch.

Maybe. I may have to disassemble the pressure switch but I was leaning
toward just replacing it (but Home Depot doesn't have them in stock).

On 6/6/2021 4:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:49:32 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Is the pressure gauge on the same pipe as the switch?
What value does it read? 0 or some higher value?

Let me know if the imgur image uploads works.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

The pressure at the bladder is 52psi.
I can't tell the pressure at the pump because the pressure gauge is stuck.

The main question I have is how to DIY the replacement of the pressure
switch given I don't even know if it's air or water in the copper pipe.


It should be water normally. The switch can handle either. The switch
and the gauge not working could be a common problem of plugged passages.
I still have not seen what the gauge is reading. If it cannot easily be
fixed bu cleaning the hole into the threaded end of it, it should be
replaced also.

To replace the switch, if the thread on the old and new one are the
same, you should be able to disconnect the wires to the switch, unfasten
the conduit and motor retention nuts on the sides of the old switch,
then unscrew the old switch from the elbow that joins it to the switch.

Try to minimize bending of the copper tubing and stressing the other end
at the pump. You can just unscrew the nut at each/either end of the
copper tubing if that helps. No sealant should be needed to re-connect
the compression fittings there. Then reverse that process using sealant
on the threaded connection that goes back onto the bottom of the switch.

Is the "air leak" where the copper tubing joins the pump casing? I still
do not get that part of the problem

Is there air in the water system as I asked before?

On 6/6/2021 5:02 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:45:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:
A water pump should not be pumping air. Do you get bubbles coming out of
the taps regularly? Do you get a blast of air when you drain the water
from the system?

Never any air in any line at the house or at the garden hoses.

Here are some pictures showing the pump and the copper pressure pipe.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

I think the one inch plastic plug overheated because the pump wasn't
shutting off except by thermal cutoff after hours of running wild.

At the same time a garden hose blew out in the middle so I think the
pressure may have gone sky high (but I don't know that for a fact).

You could try running a hose from a valve that taps off
it before the tank (that would divert air) into a bucket of water. Do
you see bubbles?

No bubbles. I think the copper pipe is "supposed" to carry air.
But I don't know that though. I wish I knew for sure.

But everything is working except the pump shutting off.

If you see air in the pumped water, you likely have a
leak in the pipes before the pump somewhere you need to fix.

I've never seen air in any water output.

Run the
hose into an full inverted glass jug in the bucket, and you can actually
see how fast air is coming out.

Garden hose?
The one connected to the house?
No air in them.
I'm positive.

Air would also likely fill the pressure tank, and gradually reduce it's
water capacity over time. That should show when you drain the tank.
(Blasts as the water runs out)

I don't think it's air in the water.

Older pumps with non-bladder tanks used to have a system that would suck
a little air in through the input line that would get pumped into he
tank to make up for air that gets dissolved into the water and pumped
away. If your system used to be one of those, that could be where the
air is coming from. The water outlet from the pump, and the pressure
valve and pressure switch are usually at the top, and the pipe to the
switch could be right where that air collects. Air is less likely to
plug the pressure switch inlet tube, so they might have chosen the high
spot on the pump to supply the switch.

Take a look at the pictures.
The main question is WHAT is supposed to be inside that copper pipe?
air or water

Which brings to mind - if the pressure switch otherwise operates
properly (turn on/off as you manipulate it), you could have rust or crud
plugging up the tubes or inlet of that switch.

Maybe. I may have to disassemble the pressure switch but I was leaning
toward just replacing it (but Home Depot doesn't have them in stock).


You could try removing the copper tube on the switch by loosening th nut
on the switch end of it, and try starting the pump for a moment to see
if water comes squirting out, it nothing comes out, something is plugged
up ahead of that that would need to be fixed.

Again, try adjusting the nut on the big spring of the switch to a lower
pressure cutoff to see if that solves the problem. Your pump clearly can
barely make it to 53 PSI, and the 50 PSI switch might just be a little
above that just from age, or the pump is not pumping as strong as it
used to. Both the pump and the switch have tolerances and adjustment is
the way to fix that quickly.

On 6/6/2021 9:39 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/6/2021 5:02 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:45:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:
A water pump should not be pumping air. Do you get bubbles coming out of
the taps regularly? Do you get a blast of air when you drain the water
from the system?

Never any air in any line at the house or at the garden hoses.

Here are some pictures showing the pump and the copper pressure pipe.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

I think the one inch plastic plug overheated because the pump wasn't
shutting off except by thermal cutoff after hours of running wild.

At the same time a garden hose blew out in the middle so I think the
pressure may have gone sky high (but I don't know that for a fact).

You could try running a hose from a valve that taps off
it before the tank (that would divert air) into a bucket of water. Do
you see bubbles?

No bubbles. I think the copper pipe is "supposed" to carry air.
But I don't know that though. I wish I knew for sure.

But everything is working except the pump shutting off.

If you see air in the pumped water, you likely have a
leak in the pipes before the pump somewhere you need to fix.

I've never seen air in any water output.

Run the
hose into an full inverted glass jug in the bucket, and you can actually
see how fast air is coming out.

Garden hose?
The one connected to the house?
No air in them.
I'm positive.

Air would also likely fill the pressure tank, and gradually reduce it's
water capacity over time. That should show when you drain the tank.
(Blasts as the water runs out)

I don't think it's air in the water.

Older pumps with non-bladder tanks used to have a system that would suck
a little air in through the input line that would get pumped into he
tank to make up for air that gets dissolved into the water and pumped
away. If your system used to be one of those, that could be where the
air is coming from. The water outlet from the pump, and the pressure
valve and pressure switch are usually at the top, and the pipe to the
switch could be right where that air collects. Air is less likely to
plug the pressure switch inlet tube, so they might have chosen the high
spot on the pump to supply the switch.

Take a look at the pictures.
The main question is WHAT is supposed to be inside that copper pipe?
Â* air or water

Which brings to mind - if the pressure switch otherwise operates
properly (turn on/off as you manipulate it), you could have rust or crud
plugging up the tubes or inlet of that switch.

Maybe. I may have to disassemble the pressure switch but I was leaning
toward just replacing it (but Home Depot doesn't have them in stock).


You could try removing the copper tube on the switch by loosening th nut
on the switch end of it, and try starting the pump for a moment to see
if water comes squirting out, it nothing comes out, something is plugged
up ahead of that that would need to be fixed.

Again, try adjusting the nut on the big spring of the switch to a lower
pressure cutoff to see if that solves the problem. Your pump clearly can
barely make it to 53 PSI, and the 50 PSI switch might just be a little
above that just from age, or the pump is not pumping as strong as it
used to. Both the pump and the switch have tolerances and adjustment is
the way to fix that quickly.


By the way, your pump probably ran till the water in it boiled, and that
over-pressured your hose, and blew out the plastic fitting, which looks
like it's outer end was stretched by the hot pressure before the plug
blew out.

Also, however you end up fixing it, you should make sure the pressure
switch setting is at least a few PSI lower than the pumps maximum
pressure capability. Otherwise, tolerances may repeat the problem over time.

On 6/6/2021 9:53 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/6/2021 9:39 PM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/6/2021 5:02 PM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 14:45:38 -0700, Bob F wrote:
A water pump should not be pumping air. Do you get bubbles coming
out of
the taps regularly? Do you get a blast of air when you drain the water
from the system?

Never any air in any line at the house or at the garden hoses.

Here are some pictures showing the pump and the copper pressure pipe.
https://i.imgur.com/Wlbr3oE.jpg pump, pressure gauge, & pressure switch
https://i.imgur.com/CoY9Xto.jpg pressure switch & plumbing
https://i.imgur.com/4S3jaDC.jpg blown out plastic plug in back of pump
https://i.imgur.com/N3zt1zN.jpg 1-inch plastic plug replaced with brass
https://i.imgur.com/EmoXlEn.jpg non-tapered holes require tapered plugs
https://i.imgur.com/BuUkS0Q.jpg tapered vs non-tapered 1-inch plugs
https://i.imgur.com/06RQp4q.jpg brass, galvanized, steel & plastic plugs

I think the one inch plastic plug overheated because the pump wasn't
shutting off except by thermal cutoff after hours of running wild.

At the same time a garden hose blew out in the middle so I think the
pressure may have gone sky high (but I don't know that for a fact).

You could try running a hose from a valve that taps off
it before the tank (that would divert air) into a bucket of water. Do
you see bubbles?

No bubbles. I think the copper pipe is "supposed" to carry air.
But I don't know that though. I wish I knew for sure.

But everything is working except the pump shutting off.

If you see air in the pumped water, you likely have a
leak in the pipes before the pump somewhere you need to fix.

I've never seen air in any water output.

Run the
hose into an full inverted glass jug in the bucket, and you can
actually
see how fast air is coming out.

Garden hose?
The one connected to the house?
No air in them.
I'm positive.

Air would also likely fill the pressure tank, and gradually reduce it's
water capacity over time. That should show when you drain the tank.
(Blasts as the water runs out)

I don't think it's air in the water.

Older pumps with non-bladder tanks used to have a system that would
suck
a little air in through the input line that would get pumped into he
tank to make up for air that gets dissolved into the water and pumped
away. If your system used to be one of those, that could be where the
air is coming from. The water outlet from the pump, and the pressure
valve and pressure switch are usually at the top, and the pipe to the
switch could be right where that air collects. Air is less likely to
plug the pressure switch inlet tube, so they might have chosen the high
spot on the pump to supply the switch.

Take a look at the pictures.
The main question is WHAT is supposed to be inside that copper pipe?
Â* air or water

Which brings to mind - if the pressure switch otherwise operates
properly (turn on/off as you manipulate it), you could have rust or
crud
plugging up the tubes or inlet of that switch.

Maybe. I may have to disassemble the pressure switch but I was leaning
toward just replacing it (but Home Depot doesn't have them in stock).


You could try removing the copper tube on the switch by loosening th
nut on the switch end of it, and try starting the pump for a moment to
see if water comes squirting out, it nothing comes out, something is
plugged up ahead of that that would need to be fixed.

Again, try adjusting the nut on the big spring of the switch to a
lower pressure cutoff to see if that solves the problem. Your pump
clearly can barely make it to 53 PSI, and the 50 PSI switch might just
be a little above that just from age, or the pump is not pumping as
strong as it used to. Both the pump and the switch have tolerances and
adjustment is the way to fix that quickly.


By the way, your pump probably ran till the water in it boiled, and that
over-pressured your hose, and blew out the plastic fitting, which looks
like it's outer end was stretched by the hot pressure before the plug
blew out.

Also, however you end up fixing it, you should make sure the pressure
switch setting is at least a few PSI lower than the pumps maximum
pressure capability. Otherwise, tolerances may repeat the problem over
time.

Just had another thought. Could the air noise you are hearing be from
the conduit carrying the power wire from the power box nearby? If so, it
could be air pushed through the conduit from the motor cooling fan.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:39:03 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You could try removing the copper tube on the switch by loosening th nut
on the switch end of it, and try starting the pump for a moment to see
if water comes squirting out, it nothing comes out, something is plugged
up ahead of that that would need to be fixed.

That's a good idea. With the pump running I loosened the top copper nut.
Water squirted out, clearly under pressure within a few turns.
So that pipe is definitely carrying water under pressure.

Interestingly at the same time I _removed_ the dial gauge (to clean it).
There is NOTHING coming out of the dial gauge hole. Not air. Not water.
Even when the pump is running for a few minutes.

Again, try adjusting the nut on the big spring of the switch to a lower
pressure cutoff to see if that solves the problem. Your pump clearly can
barely make it to 53 PSI, and the 50 PSI switch might just be a little
above that just from age, or the pump is not pumping as strong as it
used to. Both the pump and the switch have tolerances and adjustment is
the way to fix that quickly.

I plan on replacing the switch but you have a point that if it's not the
switch, at least playing with the adjustments can pinpoint if that's the
problem, or if the pump can't get up to cutoff pressure (it may have
overheated).

I hadn't thought of the problem being the pump until you mentioned that.

I will look up HOW that switch works because there are three or so different
adjusting locations and I'm confused since I haven't looked at that yet.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:53:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:
By the way, your pump probably ran till the water in it boiled, and that
over-pressured your hose, and blew out the plastic fitting, which looks
like it's outer end was stretched by the hot pressure before the plug
blew out.

I think you're right when I look at the distorted plastic plug.

At first I thought it was two different threads, big and little.
But now I realize it blew up like a balloon until it finally failed.

That's probably why the pinhole in it which is the failure from heat.
Somehow, eventually, it worked its way out - maybe from the water pressure
on the pinhole "spinning" it out (if that's even possible) as these things
are in there really tightly.

The inner end was likely confined by the threads in the pump.
So the outer end was ballooned only.

I didn't think of this until you said it and I 100% agree with you.
It must have been HOT.

Also, however you end up fixing it, you should make sure the pressure
switch setting is at least a few PSI lower than the pumps maximum
pressure capability. Otherwise, tolerances may repeat the problem over time.

I hadn't thought of that but it's a good idea to lower the set pressure.

Unfortunately when I REMOVED the stuck gauge with the pump running NOTHING
came out (I was trying to determine if it was clogged and I was trying to
tell if it sensed water or air). There was some gunk (not much) in the hole
of the pump and no gunk to speak of in the gauge hole.

I find it odd that the side of the pump with the guage (which looks EXACTLY
like the side of the pump with the copper hose (they seem symmetric) has
NOTHING coming out of it at the same time that the copper side has water
pressure when I loosened the bolt.

My tentative conclusion is the gauge side is blocked somehow - or - since
the gauge never worked - maybe it isn't designed to have pressure???????

I need to buy a water pressure gauge that goes on the end of a garden hose.
I do know that when the bladder shows only about 25 psi the water pressure
in the house is ok and when the bladder is at about 30 psi the water
pressure in the house is fine.

Could it also be the air pressure in the bladder being too low?
(I'll pump it up today when the pressure drops down again.)

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:57:01 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just had another thought. Could the air noise you are hearing be from
the conduit carrying the power wire from the power box nearby? If so, it
could be air pushed through the conduit from the motor cooling fan.

You are probably right. The hiss may be from my imagination since it's
really hard to hear given the pump is running - and the air that I can feel
is very little - like the puff you do with a baby before you dunk it into
the water (to get it to close its mouth).

The constant puff of air I can feel at the bottom of the pressure switch is
probably just air from the motor running.

The problems I can fix now a
|1| I can pressurize the bladder to 28psi when the pump is off and no pressure.
|2| I can watch the operating of the pressure switch when the pump goes on.
|3| I can lower the low/high pressure to something like 30/40 psi.

The mysteries that have been solved a
|1| The distorted plug probably ballooned from pressure & heat.
|2| The bad gauge never moving is because there is no pressure on that side.
|3| The copper pipe to the pressure switch definitely has water in it (not air).

The mysteries that remain a
|1| Why does the pressure gauge side of the motor have nothing coming out?
|2| Is it lack of pressure or a bad switch preventing the motor from turning off?
|3| Was the plastic 1-inch plug originally there as a safety valve?

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:23:59 -0700, Bob F wrote:
It should be water normally. The switch can handle either.

Thanks for explaining it should be water but it can handle air.

There is definitely water squirting out under pressure when I loosened the
copper nut at the pump side when the pump is running.

and the gauge not working could be a common problem of plugged passages.

Something may be plugged since the top of the pump looks symmetric but when
I pull out the gauge completely (to clean things out) there is NOTHING
coming out of the gauge hole even when the pump is running.

That's why the gauge isn't working.

I still have not seen what the gauge is reading. If it cannot easily be
fixed bu cleaning the hole into the threaded end of it, it should be
replaced also.

It's reading a constant 60psi but I banged it a bit after I pulled it out
and now it reads a constant 40psi but it's just a broken gauge as it reads
that even when held in my hands (but it always was stuck).

The mystery to me is why there's nothing coming out of the gauge hole when
there is water coming out of the (symmetric?) pressure pipe hole.

To replace the switch, if the thread on the old and new one are the
same, you should be able to disconnect the wires to the switch, unfasten
the conduit and motor retention nuts on the sides of the old switch,
then unscrew the old switch from the elbow that joins it to the switch.

Thanks for the advice on the switch replacement.
I have to find out if a different Home Depot has them in stock.

I can get a gauge too but it may be useless with nothing coming out.
I probably may need to start looking at sourcing a new pump too.

Try to minimize bending of the copper tubing and stressing the other end
at the pump. You can just unscrew the nut at each/either end of the
copper tubing if that helps.

That's good advice. Thanks. It sure does look flimsy compared to the rest.
(Those steel plugs are built like they were for WWII tanks.)

No sealant should be needed to re-connect the compression fittings there.

That's good to know. When I loosened the nut for the copper pipe at the pump
I didn't see any pipe dope but it didn't occur to me that the reason was
it's a compression fitting.

Then reverse that process using sealant
on the threaded connection that goes back onto the bottom of the switch.

Good to know.


Is the "air leak" where the copper tubing joins the pump casing? I still
do not get that part of the problem

I think the air was a red herring. It only happens when the pump is running.
I think the air that I can feel is from the pump fan as you suggested prior.

Is there air in the water system as I asked before?

Yes. With the pump running the copper pipe is carrying water under pressure.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:28:38 AM UTC-5, dan wrote:

Some cut.

Thanks for the advice on the switch replacement.
I have to find out if a different Home Depot has them in stock.

Try Ace Hardware or another place like it.

More cut.

On 6/7/2021 5:15 AM, dan wrote:
On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:39:03 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You could try removing the copper tube on the switch by loosening th nut
on the switch end of it, and try starting the pump for a moment to see
if water comes squirting out, it nothing comes out, something is plugged
up ahead of that that would need to be fixed.

That's a good idea. With the pump running I loosened the top copper nut.
Water squirted out, clearly under pressure within a few turns.
So that pipe is definitely carrying water under pressure.

Interestingly at the same time I _removed_ the dial gauge (to clean it).
There is NOTHING coming out of the dial gauge hole. Not air. Not water.
Even when the pump is running for a few minutes.

Again, try adjusting the nut on the big spring of the switch to a lower
pressure cutoff to see if that solves the problem. Your pump clearly can
barely make it to 53 PSI, and the 50 PSI switch might just be a little
above that just from age, or the pump is not pumping as strong as it
used to. Both the pump and the switch have tolerances and adjustment is
the way to fix that quickly.

I plan on replacing the switch but you have a point that if it's not the
switch, at least playing with the adjustments can pinpoint if that's the
problem, or if the pump can't get up to cutoff pressure (it may have
overheated).

I hadn't thought of the problem being the pump until you mentioned that.

I will look up HOW that switch works because there are three or so different
adjusting locations and I'm confused since I haven't looked at that yet.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:53:28 -0700, Bob F wrote:
By the way, your pump probably ran till the water in it boiled, and that
over-pressured your hose, and blew out the plastic fitting, which looks
like it's outer end was stretched by the hot pressure before the plug
blew out.

I think you're right when I look at the distorted plastic plug.

At first I thought it was two different threads, big and little.
But now I realize it blew up like a balloon until it finally failed.

That's probably why the pinhole in it which is the failure from heat.
Somehow, eventually, it worked its way out - maybe from the water pressure
on the pinhole "spinning" it out (if that's even possible) as these things
are in there really tightly.

The inner end was likely confined by the threads in the pump.
So the outer end was ballooned only.

I didn't think of this until you said it and I 100% agree with you.
It must have been HOT.

Also, however you end up fixing it, you should make sure the pressure
switch setting is at least a few PSI lower than the pumps maximum
pressure capability. Otherwise, tolerances may repeat the problem over time.

I hadn't thought of that but it's a good idea to lower the set pressure.

Unfortunately when I REMOVED the stuck gauge with the pump running NOTHING
came out (I was trying to determine if it was clogged and I was trying to
tell if it sensed water or air). There was some gunk (not much) in the hole
of the pump and no gunk to speak of in the gauge hole.

I find it odd that the side of the pump with the guage (which looks EXACTLY
like the side of the pump with the copper hose (they seem symmetric) has
NOTHING coming out of it at the same time that the copper side has water
pressure when I loosened the bolt.

My tentative conclusion is the gauge side is blocked somehow - or - since
the gauge never worked - maybe it isn't designed to have pressure???????

I need to buy a water pressure gauge that goes on the end of a garden hose.
I do know that when the bladder shows only about 25 psi the water pressure
in the house is ok and when the bladder is at about 30 psi the water
pressure in the house is fine.

Could it also be the air pressure in the bladder being too low?
(I'll pump it up today when the pressure drops down again.)

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 21:57:01 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just had another thought. Could the air noise you are hearing be from
the conduit carrying the power wire from the power box nearby? If so, it
could be air pushed through the conduit from the motor cooling fan.

You are probably right. The hiss may be from my imagination since it's
really hard to hear given the pump is running - and the air that I can feel
is very little - like the puff you do with a baby before you dunk it into
the water (to get it to close its mouth).

The constant puff of air I can feel at the bottom of the pressure switch is
probably just air from the motor running.

The problems I can fix now a
|1| I can pressurize the bladder to 28psi when the pump is off and no pressure.
|2| I can watch the operating of the pressure switch when the pump goes on.
|3| I can lower the low/high pressure to something like 30/40 psi.

The mysteries that have been solved a
|1| The distorted plug probably ballooned from pressure & heat.
|2| The bad gauge never moving is because there is no pressure on that side.

Rust or crud is blocking the passage. You could try probing into the
gauge hole with a screwdriver to see if it you can knock it loose. I'd
do that with some water pressure in the system, so the crud that breaks
loose gets flushed out (in your face?) rather than stay in the pump and
maybe damage the impeller inside. Otherwise, you will need to
disassemble the impeller end of pump a bit to clean it out.

Also, check that the hole in the end of the gauge is not plugged while
you have it out

|3| The copper pipe to the pressure switch definitely has water in it (not air).

The ell on the switch and the switch itself could still be plugged, so
you could check those too. You should be able to loosen the electrical
conduit and motor nuts in the switch box and rotate it to where you can
see with the copper tubing disconnected.


The mysteries that remain a
|1| Why does the pressure gauge side of the motor have nothing coming out?
|2| Is it lack of pressure or a bad switch preventing the motor from turning off?

Adjust to test that.

|3| Was the plastic 1-inch plug originally there as a safety valve?


That is a very good thought. You might consider that to be a reason to
replace it. You could also also add a thermal switch on the pump case to
activate an alarm, cutoff relay, or ever a garden sprinkler valve to
vent water outside.

Getting the pressure switch working properly should mostly solve that
problem for a long time

On 6/7/2021 5:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 7:28:38 AM UTC-5, dan wrote:

Some cut.

Thanks for the advice on the switch replacement.
I have to find out if a different Home Depot has them in stock.

Try Ace Hardware or another place like it.

More cut.


The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

dan writes:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2021 14:24:30 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37#
if the switch is configured for 40-60).

Thanks for that information.

I'll set it at 27 psi given that the gray cap says the switch is a
"Pumptrol, SquareD, control circuit A600, Type FSG-2, Form U, class 9013,
Ser B, On 30, off 50" but I don't know yet how the air pipe connects to the
bottom.

Note that the marked values are as shipped from the factory. They're often
adjusted in the field. Watch the gauge when it starts and stops to see
what the adjusted values are.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 06:55:04 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Rust or crud is blocking the passage.

It must be that because otherwise why would there be zero anything?
It must have been plugged for many years as I've never seen it move.

You could try probing into the
gauge hole with a screwdriver to see if it you can knock it loose.

When I opened it up I cleaned out what I could.
There wasn't much and it was gooey (not hard).
Not even a teaspoon full.

The threaded hole isn't deep so the passageways must be to the side.
I don't think I can get to them.
It might be difficult to take apart this part of the pump mechanism.
It may not be worth it just to get the gauge working.

do that with some water pressure in the system, so the crud that breaks
loose gets flushed out (in your face?) rather than stay in the pump and
maybe damage the impeller inside. Otherwise, you will need to
disassemble the impeller end of pump a bit to clean it out.

Also, check that the hole in the end of the gauge is not plugged while
you have it out

The gauge is stuck at 40 psi now (before it was around 60psi or 70).
If it's plugged it's not in the first 1-1/2 inches as a paperclip goes up.

I don't mind replacing the gauge with an oil filled gauge if I can find one.
But if there's no pressure in the hole the gauge isn't going to matter.

One question is how accurate is the pressure measured at the bladder?
That's EASY to measure.

But is that the true water pressure?
I don't know.


|3| The copper pipe to the pressure switch definitely has water in it (not air).

The ell on the switch and the switch itself could still be plugged, so
you could check those too. You should be able to loosen the electrical
conduit and motor nuts in the switch box and rotate it to where you can
see with the copper tubing disconnected.

I agree with all of your advice as you are logically sound.

I had loosened the short bolt 3/8th inch nut by 5 turns (which should lower
the high end cutoff by about 10 pounds) but the pump still ran on forever.

So if the 20# range was previously at 40 to 60, now it would be 30 to 50.

The mysteries that remain a
|1| Why does the pressure gauge side of the motor have nothing coming out?
|2| Is it lack of pressure or a bad switch preventing the motor from turning off?

Adjust to test that.

After adjusting the upper end smaller bolt, I lowered the whole range by
five turns (loosened big bolt nut) so if it was 40 to 60 originally, and if
it's 30 to 50 now, then it would be 30 to 40 now. (I don't know what it was
set at prior so I'm just giving examples.)

With the range lowered by 5 turns and the upper end lowered by 5 turns
I'm hoping to test what will happen. I will respond back when I find out.


|3| Was the plastic 1-inch plug originally there as a safety valve?


That is a very good thought. You might consider that to be a reason to
replace it. You could also also add a thermal switch on the pump case to
activate an alarm, cutoff relay, or ever a garden sprinkler valve to
vent water outside.

Given EVERYTHING else around it is built like a Sherman tank, I have to
wonder if the plumber who put that plastic plug in knew what he was doing.

Then again, the motor says it has a safety thermal valve so the motor
"should" have shut off - but maybe the pump was cooled enough by the water
to prevent the motor from overheating even as the pump may have overheated.

Something pretty major had to happen for that plug to blow out like a
balloon (which you noticed before I did) and to still keep the threads which
were inside the pump seemingly intact.

Getting the pressure switch working properly should mostly solve that
problem for a long time

Yes. It may be that the pump just can't get past 52 psi which if that's the
case I'm fine with the pressure switch turning it off around 40 psi.

What kind of pressure do people normally have in their house anyway?

On 6/7/2021 9:30 AM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank) went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded 52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero (no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about 2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

On 6/7/2021 10:34 AM, Bob F wrote:
On 6/7/2021 9:30 AM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 07:01:52 -0700, Bob F wrote:
The obvious first thing to do is adjust the switch to a lower pressure.
Instructions are in the switch cover usually. I believe you loosen the
nut on the bigger spring.

I agree. Completely. And therefore I will do that next!
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=400

BTW, this morning I increased the native pressure of the bladder to 28psi
(when the water level was a dribble so I assume that's as low as it gets)
as it had started at about 22 psi a couple of days ago & needed air.

After pressurizing the bladder to 28psi I let the pressure pump run to
see
if it would cut off, and the pressure (at the top of the blue tank)
went up
very quickly (within a minute) to 35psi and then within another minute
to 50
psi but even after ten minutes of the pump running it never exceeded
52psi
(and the pump never turned off).

So that's one mystery of why the pump doesn't get higher than 52psi as
measured at the top of the blue bladder tank. The other (perhaps
related?)
mystery is why the pressure at the gauge on the pump is literally zero
(no
air, no water).

I removed the gauge and let the pump run and NOTHING came out. Huh?

Given the pump /can't/ get higher than 52psi, then lowering the pressure
switch shutoff may prove that everything /else/ is working (but the
pump).

Therefore I agree the next thing I should try is lower the shutoff
pressure.

I don't have instructions on the cover but they are here & you are right.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=65

That video says if the 20# range is set to 30:50, then loosening the
big nut
on that large center bolt will _lower_ the 20# range (say to 20:40).

Each full center nut rotation is 2 to 3 psi change of the 20# range.
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=85

Loosening the smaller nut lowers the high-end cutoff only (about
2psi/turn).
https://youtu.be/1VNSv7xVzzU?t=98

So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need
it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

If you set it too close to the limit the pump can provide, You will
likely end up with the failure again sooner than later. That's why I
suggest the extra turn.

Your readings are always questionable with tire gauges or any other
gauge. I have several tire gauges, and they vary by several PSI when
checking the same tire. It would really be worth fixing the gauge on the
pump so you can glance at it once in a while as the pump turns off and
see that the shutoff PSI is not inching upwards.



When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

On 6/7/2021 10:26 AM, dan wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 06:55:04 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Rust or crud is blocking the passage.

It must be that because otherwise why would there be zero anything?
It must have been plugged for many years as I've never seen it move.

You could try probing into the
gauge hole with a screwdriver to see if it you can knock it loose.

When I opened it up I cleaned out what I could.
There wasn't much and it was gooey (not hard).
Not even a teaspoon full.

The threaded hole isn't deep so the passageways must be to the side.
I don't think I can get to them.
It might be difficult to take apart this part of the pump mechanism.
It may not be worth it just to get the gauge working.

do that with some water pressure in the system, so the crud that breaks
loose gets flushed out (in your face?) rather than stay in the pump and
maybe damage the impeller inside. Otherwise, you will need to
disassemble the impeller end of pump a bit to clean it out.

Also, check that the hole in the end of the gauge is not plugged while
you have it out

The gauge is stuck at 40 psi now (before it was around 60psi or 70).
If it's plugged it's not in the first 1-1/2 inches as a paperclip goes up.

I don't mind replacing the gauge with an oil filled gauge if I can find one.
But if there's no pressure in the hole the gauge isn't going to matter.

One question is how accurate is the pressure measured at the bladder?
That's EASY to measure.

But is that the true water pressure?
I don't know.


|3| The copper pipe to the pressure switch definitely has water in it (not air).

The ell on the switch and the switch itself could still be plugged, so
you could check those too. You should be able to loosen the electrical
conduit and motor nuts in the switch box and rotate it to where you can
see with the copper tubing disconnected.

I agree with all of your advice as you are logically sound.

I had loosened the short bolt 3/8th inch nut by 5 turns (which should lower
the high end cutoff by about 10 pounds) but the pump still ran on forever.

So if the 20# range was previously at 40 to 60, now it would be 30 to 50.

The mysteries that remain a
|1| Why does the pressure gauge side of the motor have nothing coming out?
|2| Is it lack of pressure or a bad switch preventing the motor from turning off?

Adjust to test that.

After adjusting the upper end smaller bolt, I lowered the whole range by
five turns (loosened big bolt nut) so if it was 40 to 60 originally, and if
it's 30 to 50 now, then it would be 30 to 40 now. (I don't know what it was
set at prior so I'm just giving examples.)

With the range lowered by 5 turns and the upper end lowered by 5 turns
I'm hoping to test what will happen. I will respond back when I find out.


|3| Was the plastic 1-inch plug originally there as a safety valve?


That is a very good thought. You might consider that to be a reason to
replace it. You could also also add a thermal switch on the pump case to
activate an alarm, cutoff relay, or ever a garden sprinkler valve to
vent water outside.

Given EVERYTHING else around it is built like a Sherman tank, I have to
wonder if the plumber who put that plastic plug in knew what he was doing.

Then again, the motor says it has a safety thermal valve so the motor
"should" have shut off - but maybe the pump was cooled enough by the water
to prevent the motor from overheating even as the pump may have overheated.

It is probably a thermal switch in the motor that detects the heat of
the motor, not the pump casing. So it doesn't protect from boiling the
water.

You could add a water heater temperature/pressure safety valve to the
output one of those extra holes plugged on the pump to protect and cool
the pump once in a while if this happens again. If really close to he
pump, temp might trigger it, otherwise, the pressure alone could. Did
your water heater safety valve spurt when the plug and hose blew up?


Something pretty major had to happen for that plug to blow out like a
balloon (which you noticed before I did) and to still keep the threads which
were inside the pump seemingly intact.

They probably were soft enough to just squeeze out and pop back to shape.


Getting the pressure switch working properly should mostly solve that
problem for a long time

Yes. It may be that the pump just can't get past 52 psi which if that's the
case I'm fine with the pressure switch turning it off around 40 psi.

Not may be, certainly is true, would be how I would put it, if your
gauge is accurate.

What kind of pressure do people normally have in their house anyway?

My city water is 70 PSI. Pump systems vary, but 30-50 and 40-60 are
pretty common. It is OK to adjust to meet your needs or protect plumbing
components.

On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 10:34:39 -0700, Bob F wrote:
So the smaller spring adjustment lessens the top of the range, the
difference above the turn on setting determined by the bigger spring.

That's a good way of putting it.

The video said the spring on the bigger screw is more forgiving as if we're
supposed to be changing these things a lot? I'm surprised they said that.


What's a good range and high end? I don't know.
The video says to play with the 20# range if you need to lower pressure.
It says to play with the high end cutoff only if you specifically need it.

The manufacturer usually says to use a 20# range. If you adjust the
larger spring, you will keep the 20# range, but your lowest pressure of
the cycle will be a little lower. If you adjust the smaller range
spring, the lowest pressure will remain the same, but the pump will
cycle a little more often.

After both adjustments, the water pressure pump has been cycling on its own!

I only caught it starting once (which I timed at 1-1/2 minutes to shutoff).
I tested the pressure at the top of the bladder at the end at 37psi.

It's kind of low but not so low as to make me worry.
I'm surprised though that it's that much lower than 52psi given only 5 turns
each of the two adjustment screws (the start of the range & its top end).

However it has only been doing this since my last post and I'm busy with
other things so I haven't figured out the new on/off/rest interval yet.

But the GOOD NEWS is it's "automatic" again!
Your advice to LOWER the cutoff pressure at the switch did the trick!


I will probably drop it lower than I really need to just to debug.
Then bring it up later as close to the 30:50 as I can get it.

It can (carefully, with a socket wrench) be adjusted while the pump is
running at it's maximum pressure and the pump should stop when the
setting is down to the pressure the pump is providing. Then turn it
another turn to get 2-3 PSI below the pumps limit.

Oh. That's a great trick!
That trick of adjusting it while the pump is running wasn't in the video.
(And yes, I'm aware the pump is likely 220 volts and the switch is hot.)

BTW, you can't use a socket on my center bolt because the nut was down too
low but it's just a 3/8ths inch nut so an open end wrench works just fine.

As I see it, the two bolts are above a plate where the pressure from below
pushes the plate up and the bolts simply hold the spring which pushes down.

Therefore, for debugging, since the pump never shut off, I could have
loosened the center range bolt until the pump shut off and then loosened the
side topend bolt a few turns to get it to shut off a few psi below that.

That's a great debugging idea to find out exactly where the pump shuts off.


When I change the cutout pressure point I have to measure the results.
Is the pressure at the top of the blue bladder tank an accurate pressure?


It is as accurate as your gauge, but lets a little air out each time you
do it which will need to be replaced at some point.

The air in the bladder is easily enough replaced.

It's only slightly inconvenient that I have to let the water pressure go to
as close to zero in the house as possible. I don't know the "correct" way to
fill the bladder since it will always have some water pressure from the
tanks feeding it. But I don't know how much that might be.

I think you solved all the mysteries (except perhaps what changed to cause
the problem in the first place but I'm not so worried about that really).

I will add to the idea of having water pressure in the system when you
probe to clean out the gauge passage. Have some pressure in the tank,
but the pump turned off so the crud will not get pushed around by the
impeller, but instead will go with the water pushing it out the gauge
hole. Have enough pressure to make sure a bunch of water is there to get
it all out as you probe.

For now, if the gauge on the bladder is good enough, I'm fine but I do agree
that having a gauge at the pump is far better as I can watch it drop and
then I can see when the pump kicks on and off (although it's not in a
convenient spot for watching it).

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:56:00 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...


On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

I read all the posts.. whew

Buy and install a new pressure switch and gauge. Use existing piping. Don't
bother messing with the old stuff, it's futile and time wasting. Don't bother
messing with the bladder tank, you are going into a rabbit hole, you will burn
the pump out. The pump can probably only achieve 52 psi and the switch isn't
turning it off. Repeat: get switch & gauge & install with tape & Megaloc.
--
Tekkie