Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 8:02:12 AM UTC-5, dan wrote:
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and
when it kicks off?
You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump
ahead of it. Is that right?
Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch
malfunction.

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 06:15:27 -0700 (PDT), Dean Hoffman wrote:
Do you know what the pressure readings are when it kicks on and
when it kicks off?

Good question.

All I know is that I tested the bladder pressure with a bicycle PSI meter
when I recently replaced a "plug" that blew out in the back of the water
pump.

That 1-inch diameter pipe plug was white plastic and it apparently worked
its way out over time (probably since the pump was put there decades ago).

Earlier this week I lost thousands of gallons of water out that open
one-inch threaded hole in the back of the pressure pump before I knew what
was happening.

I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered
so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had
brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch
plugs.

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

Since I had the whole thing down for a day there was no pressure whatsoever
at the house so I measured the bladder pressure at 20 PSI (which I thought
was low but it's the lowest it will ever be because the water was out for a
day while I was running around to stores).

I don't know if it's the pressure switch so I'm looking up how to test that.
I will try to get some readings today as this problem only started after I
had replaced that one plug.

I don't think the white plastic 1-inch plug "blew out" by the way, but only
based on observation that the threads weren't stripped. It would screw back
in if I had wanted to re-use it, but it was also melted at one point and was
pin holed by that melt so I didn't want to risk re-using it.

You called it a booster pump. That implies that there is another pump
ahead of it. Is that right?

I don't know what to call it but it's the only pressure pump.
The water comes from the well to the tanks by one pump.
And then the tanks feed what I'm calling the booster pump.
I guess I should call it a pressure pump instead.

The pressure pump has an on/off pressure switch on it.
That pressure switch turns the pressure pump on and off.

From there it goes into a human sized pressure tank with a bladder.
The air valve on top read 22psi when the pipes were open so it can't get
lower than that. The 22psi is the pressure inside the air bladder.

I think it's supposed to be maybe 10 pounds higher so I can pump it up once
I check that out. I wonder if that alone caused the problem but I haven't
touched that part of the system and it wasn't happening (that I know of)
before I replaced the plugs.

But I can't see how replacing the plugs caused the problem either.
I haven't measured the water pressure at the house but it spurts out good.

Is it pumping air? My first off the wall guess would be a pressure switch
malfunction.

I don't know if it's pumping air but I don't think there is air in this
system other than, perhaps, maybe the weeping brass plug is causing air to
be sucked in.

Thanks for your questions.
Today I'm going to run a pressure test.

dan writes:

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

I'd make sure that's fixed right before worrying about the pump turning on.

--
Dan Espen

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 12:35:49 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...


I picked up a one inch galvanized plug from Home Depot but it wasn't tapered
so it wouldn't fit. I went to a plumbing specialty supply store which had
brass, galvanized, and what they called "black metal" tapered one inch
plugs.


Make certain you have the correct plug. It might be a straight tread instead of
a pipe thread.

I bought the brass (it just seemed better) but it screwed down almost the
entire way into the plug hole so it weeps a little bit of water. I had only
put maybe two or three wraps of Teflon tape so maybe I need to wrap it more.

Use more and get some Megaloc. That will do it.

Testing the pressure switch is easy. What is the rating 30-50 or 40-60 or
something else. When the pressure drops low it turns the pump on when it
reaches the cutoff it shuts off. If you want take the cover off and measure
voltage and current at the load side. Make sure the switch and nipple don't
have any leaks. If you take the switch off make sure the nipple is clear, then
just replace the switch. Tape & Megaloc.

Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I am not a plumber but I have my own well so I have some familiarity with this.

Stay crusty...

--
Tekkie

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

On Saturday, June 5, 2021 at 4:56:03 PM UTC-5, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, TekkieÅ* wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?
That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug..
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure..
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?
I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?
I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

This one works.
https://help.imgur.com/hc/en-us/articles/213539966-Creating-Posts-and-Sharing-to-Imgur

That hissing sound might be a clue. Can you hook an air compressor into your system
somewhere to pressurize the system? Don't let it pressurize above 50 pounds or so to avoid
blowing things apart. It would be nice if you could plug the air into the system somewhere besides the plug
you're working with.

On 6/5/2021 2:56 PM, dan wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

Prior to operation, with the tank, empty of water, the pressure should
be 2psi below the cut-on pressure.


I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?


The pump could be running all the time if it cannot get up to the cutoff
pressure. This could cause it to overheat because water FLOW is the only
thing cooling it much, and can certainly soften plastic pipe parts. If
it can't pump, the motor energy heats the water in the pump.

The pump could be wearing out, and just can't get to cutoff pressure
anymore.

The black metal plug will rust. Galvanized less so, and brass not at all.

dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?


There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?\

3/8". Pull the gauge and check the orifice, it's probably plugged with
gunk. Clean it out and it should be good to go.

dan writes:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?


BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

Pressurize it to three pounds below the cut-in presssure (e.g. 37#
if the switch is configured for 40-60).

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 19:56:00 -0200, dan posted for all of us to digest...


On Sat, 5 Jun 2021 15:36:17 -0400, Tekkie© wrote:
Maybe the pump overheated and went off on thermal and it took the time to
recover?

That's probably what is finally shutting off the pressure pump.
I think the pump maybe isn't shutting off except when it actually overheats.
Maybe heat is also why the plastic 1-inch plug came out with threads intact.

I swapped the weeping brass tapered 1-inch plug with the black metal plug.
Surprisingly the Teflon tape was GONE from the threads upon inspection.
I've taken plumbing apart and the Teflon tape usually remained behind.
I think these tapered pressure fits are so tight that tape is too thick.

This time around I used only 1 tight wrap of Teflon wound really tightly.
Put plumbers goop on top of the Teflon & tightened with an 18" pipe wrench.
No more water seepage but the pump still ran forever without ever stopping.

I'm hearing a hissing sound but only when the pump is running.
That makes it hard to tell where that hissing is coming from.
There is no hissing nor leak of pressure overnight with the pump turned off.

There is a pressure gauge on the pump but it's stuck at one setting forever.
Looks like it's 0 to 100 psi and less than 1/2 inch threads - maybe 3/8"?
Are these gauges special for water pressure or can air gauges work too?

BTW, pressure at the bladder was 22 psi with no water pressure.
Within five minutes it was between 20 and 30 psi with good water pressure.
But after 1/2 hour it never exceeded 52psi with the pump always running.

I lost some air constantly testing the bladder.
Anyone know what I should pressurize the bladder to when there's no water?

I am not familiar with your booster pump; why is it there? Could you post a pix
or diagram on a hosting site?

I'll take some pictures for you.
What site is a good one that most people use?

I read all the posts.. whew

Buy and install a new pressure switch and gauge. Use existing piping. Don't
bother messing with the old stuff, it's futile and time wasting. Don't bother
messing with the bladder tank, you are going into a rabbit hole, you will burn
the pump out. The pump can probably only achieve 52 psi and the switch isn't
turning it off. Repeat: get switch & gauge & install with tape & Megaloc.
--
Tekkie

"dan" wrote in message ...
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?

The pressure sensor is ****ed.

On Sun, 6 Jun 2021 06:12:13 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


The pressure sensor is ****ed.

It can't be as ****ed as you are, trolling senile pest!

--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID:

Thanks to the help here the problem has a workaround which was first
suggested by BobF I believe, which was to lower the pressure switch set
points.

With that one change, the water pressure motor & pump has been turning on
and off automatically for 24 hours now, and while the motor must be turning
on and off as water is used I haven't caught it in the act more than once.

I'll try to do things around the yard that are near that motor to try to get
a good handle on timing how often and how long it runs & let people who
helped me know the results as a courtesy to them.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.
--
(There is also a non-related minor problem of the pressure switch pump
baffling gunked up which isn't the proximate cause of this problem.)

On 6/8/2021 7:44 AM, dan wrote:
Thanks to the help here the problem has a workaround which was first
suggested by BobF I believe, which was to lower the pressure switch set
points.

With that one change, the water pressure motor & pump has been turning on
and off automatically for 24 hours now, and while the motor must be turning
on and off as water is used I haven't caught it in the act more than once.

I'll try to do things around the yard that are near that motor to try to get
a good handle on timing how often and how long it runs & let people who
helped me know the results as a courtesy to them.

Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed. You
don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.


Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:24:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed.
You don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.

With water constantly running I determined that the turn on is 27psi.
The turn off is 37 psi in about a minute and a half (a bit less).

It takes about 15 minutes to cycle with water running.
Cycle time can be from hours to never (with no water running anyway).

BTW, your advice was logical and sound from the start in that I really
didn't need to loosen the upper level (side smaller bolt nut) because having
a 20 pound range is likely better than having a 10 pound range.

With 20 pounds there will be fewer cycles but to tell you the truth, the
wife and kids don't even notice the new situation versus the old one.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

The only switch I would consider is an exact replacement so the price is not
meaningful in terms of what it is that I'm buying. They're about 25 bucks
give or take online which isn't a problem in the least.

I was going to replace the switch & gauge but the switch is more work to
replace than to just leave it there :-) so if it's working, I'm inclined to
leave it alone now (other than to increase the range back to 20 psi).

The gauge isn't working, but no gauge will given the passageways of the pump
housing must be clogged and I don't want to break things trying to fix a
gauge, so I'm inclined to leave that too. :-)

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

Thank you very much for your advice. Everything you suggested was sensible.

I don't think the switch is the problem because with the pump running
forever the pressure never increased over 52psi which doesn't really have
anything to do with the switch and I'm told by friends that these pumps can
do well over 52psi (and it must have been high at one point given the set
point prior to this problem).

Do you know what these pumps are capable of in terms of high pressure?

On 6/8/2021 4:22 PM, dan wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 10:24:23 -0700, Bob F wrote:
Just turn on a faucet somewhere, and it will cycle on/off as needed.
You don't have to wait for it to happen when you wander by. You could even
have a hose end near the pump and a couple 5 gallon buckets, to measure
how much water comes out of the tank after the pump stops until it
starts again. Fill a bucket, and move the hose to the other, then dump
the first while the 2nd fills. Repeat as needed and keep count. Multiply
by the bucket capacity and you know your usable tank capacity.

With water constantly running I determined that the turn on is 27psi.
The turn off is 37 psi in about a minute and a half (a bit less).

It takes about 15 minutes to cycle with water running.
Cycle time can be from hours to never (with no water running anyway).

BTW, your advice was logical and sound from the start in that I really
didn't need to loosen the upper level (side smaller bolt nut) because having
a 20 pound range is likely better than having a 10 pound range.

With 20 pounds there will be fewer cycles but to tell you the truth, the
wife and kids don't even notice the new situation versus the old one.

Thank you - your help was instrumental in diagnosing & working around the
problem which appears to be an aging water pump that can no longer reach the
previous high pressure set point which was apparently well over 52 psi.


It could be a wearing switch also. You can buy them pretty cheap online
(Not that a cheap one is best) and have it around in case the switch
does decide to fail. It is not a bad investment to be ready for what
could be a very inconvenient failure.

The only switch I would consider is an exact replacement so the price is not
meaningful in terms of what it is that I'm buying. They're about 25 bucks
give or take online which isn't a problem in the least.

Those switches are kind of generic. There are many manufacturers that
make the same basic switches. You may not find "exactly" what your
switch is, but that should not make a difference as long as it is
similar in size.


I was going to replace the switch & gauge but the switch is more work to
replace than to just leave it there :-) so if it's working, I'm inclined to
leave it alone now (other than to increase the range back to 20 psi).

I was suggesting the spare switch, because having it handy could really
speed up a repair if it does go out. Then again, it is an old pump, so
switch might outlast that anyway.


The gauge isn't working, but no gauge will given the passageways of the pump
housing must be clogged and I don't want to break things trying to fix a
gauge, so I'm inclined to leave that too. :-)

I did have the mechanism at the bottom of the springs on the switch on
my sprinkler system just fall apart once. I replaced it with a spare,
and spent a significant time trying to figure out how to re-assemble the
broken switch. It was quite a puzzle.

And you are indeed welcome. I am glad you got it working.

Thank you very much for your advice. Everything you suggested was sensible.

I don't think the switch is the problem because with the pump running
forever the pressure never increased over 52psi which doesn't really have
anything to do with the switch and I'm told by friends that these pumps can
do well over 52psi (and it must have been high at one point given the set
point prior to this problem).

Do you know what these pumps are capable of in terms of high pressure?


If you search using the model number, you may find the specs online, but
it is an old pump so maybe not. I think 50 or 60 is the usual shutoff
they use. You have some pressure coming in to the pump, which can be
added to what the pump can do. I suspect that your pump is showing it's
age. The impeller is probably worn and so less efficient.

Or, maybe the pressure coming into the pump has gone down. It does not
look like your pump has a jet installed, so that pump itself might have
limited pressure increase compared to the standard shallow well pump.
That might not be the case - anything could be hidden inside that case.

If I had that system, I would have gauges on both the input and output
of the pump. It would give you significant info about developing
problems because you could quickly see if things are changing.

You said earlier that you have one pump and tanks feeding this pump as a
booster. Is there another pressure tank following it? I've been assuming
there is, but may be wrong, or, I misunderstood the system ahead of it.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2021 18:38:13 -0700, Bob F wrote:
You said earlier that you have one pump and tanks feeding this pump as a
booster. Is there another pressure tank following it? I've been assuming
there is, but may be wrong, or, I misunderstood the system ahead of it.

Water comes in from the tank to the pump to the one and only blue bladder.
Then it goes to the house.

I don't know what it's called so if I call it a "pressure pump" or a
"booster pump" it means the same thing to me.

But those words may have different meaning to you.
There is only one of each item.

On 6/5/21 9:02 AM, dan wrote:
Lately the water pressure pump keeps turning on frequently.
Like every half hour.

And it stays on for a long time.
I thought there was a leak somewhere of water.

So last night I turned off that booster pump at the circuit breaker.
I expected no water pressure in the morning.

And yet this morning there was plenty of water pressure.
What else could cause the water pump to be constantly cycling on?


If you have galvanized pipe or fittings in this system, be sure to check they haven't corroded shut.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...g eBasicHover