On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:36:19 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:


I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather

I'm sure it does.

They stopped saying "back-stabbed" because it encouraged violence.

They haven't come up with a 3rd method.

**Just kidding.


You need to stop buying those 49 cent receptacles in the barrel at the
end of the aisle. Spec grade and Commercial grade devices have been
using a clamping plate design for years. You can use one or two wires
under each terminal point. This is not the stabber with a spring
contact. It is a plate that the screw pulls in tight. I bet these
would even work with aluminum wire but nobody has been brave enough to
try to get them listed that way.
I imagine half of the inflated cost of CO/ALr devices is the lawyer
tax.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights. At the house, I'm leaning
toward using a 20A GF/AF breaker ($40-$50) versus a standard 20A breaker
($4).

150ft of UF-B 10/2 10ga
https://www.amazon.com/Wire-Underground-Feeder-Direct-Burial/dp/B077XM19M5/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2FLA5TKJ5HWDR&keywords=uf-b+10%2F2&qid=1574285222&sprefix=UF-B+%2Caps%2C187&sr=8-3

Dual Purpose Arc Fault / Ground Fault 20A Breaker
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-QO-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Dual-Function-CAFCI-and-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker-QO120DFC/204844647
(Just an example, not necessarily what I'll buy)



If you want to use the "dwelling" exception to the 18" deep for
conduit and 24" deep for UF rule, the GFCI protection needs to be at
the house end of the circuit. If you are burying this 18" or 24"
anyway that might not be important.

Good. I plan to rent a trencher so this is not a manual dig.


You can get THHN/THWN conductors in 500' spools at home depot or they
will sell it to you by the foot. The same "by the foot" is true of UF.
If you would never use the left over, that premium they charge by the
foot will come out cheaper. Just be sure you buy enough so you don't
come up short. If you up size the current carrying conductors, you
also need to up size the ground so it will end up the same size on a
20a circuit. (not #12). Code wise, you would be in violation with most
UF cable since the ground for a #8 is typically #10 unless you
specifically get the style with an 8ga ground. That will not be at
Home Depot. For that reason alone, #10 would be a better choice.

10ga is sounding like a good choice.



The reality is you would have a hard time finding a piece of cord and
plug connected equipment that pulls more than 1440 watts. (12 amps).
You have to seriously ask, "what are you really going to be doing out
there"?
If this is just a shed with a light, a receptacle for yard equipment
and maybe a 1440w heater now and then. I bet #12 would be OK and #10
should be perfect.
If you go much beyond that, like a sub panel, you will be driving
ground rods, installing disconnects etc and this gets a tad more
complicated.
The simple answer is #10/2 for the underground. GFCI at the house so
you can bury 12". They may want a local disconnect depending on your
AHJ but it can just be a 20a rated snap switch and I would do the rest
of the distribution in the shed with #12.

I like all of that.



If you really think you might change your mind and want a shop or
something out there use conduit but if this is one and done, UF is
fine. Personally I like wire in pipe but I also change my mind about
things. If you do decide #8 is for you, it will be wire in pipe anyway
unless you go to a real electrical supply and get 8/8/8 UF. Legally
you can run 3 # 8s in a 1/2 inch but I would never try to actually
pull that 120'. 3/4 or even 1' is a better choice and buy a bottle of
lube. If I have a long run like that I squirt a little in the pipe
every couple of sticks as I am putting it together, particularly in
elbows. The pull goes a lot easier.

I've never worked with UF, but after doing some reading today, plus what
all of you guys are saying, I'm more comfortable with it now.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:28:02 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:47:03 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:
Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity?

No, I did not. Ugh!

IDK, with the sub-panel full and those major loads already on it,
it doesn't sound too good. I hope it's bigger than 100A.

Dryer 30
HVAC 30
Stove 40 or
Ovens + Cooktop 60....

30+30+40 is right. It's unlikely that everything would be drawing power at
the same time, but it's possible. There's nothing left available for the
shed then. Hmmm...



Also, that panel is full, yet the youtube videos all show that a new
breaker is used to feed the sub-panel. However, there's no room for a new
breaker.

I suppose one option would be to use an existing breaker in the main panel
to feed the sub-panel, and then whatever that breaker *was* feeding would
be fed from a new breaker in the sub-panel. I hope I described that
properly.

Yes, that's what you do. Or as Ed suggested, if it's a panel where half
size breakers are available, you could free up space and not need the
additional sub-panel.

On the home improvement shows, when a breaker panel is fully populated and
they need more breakers, they swap the panel for one with more capacity. I
suppose that's always an option.

(snipped lots of good info)
Thanks for all of that.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:57:24 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:18:33 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:37:01 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:30:59 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
Hi folks,

I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my
back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and
I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to
code.

Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but
does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled
THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home
Depot.

I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He
has his markup,
of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your
shed to gather
dust.

If I go with UF-B, it looks like I can use the leftovers for inside wiring
to the lights and receptacles, so I could easily use the whole 150ft.

I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe
aluminum wire
would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it,
though.

I know AL is still used for some purposes, but I thin I want to stick with
CU.

You are going to find that if you are wiring devices with #10 you
better have greatly oversized boxes or you will have a real hard time
stuffing that wire back in there. The fill calc for #10 is 2 cu/in per
conductor and 4 more cu/in for the device. That adds up fast and the
minimum size you come up with still might be hard to use.

I have plenty of room, so using a bigger box to get room to work wouldn't
be a problem. I haven't bought any of that stuff yet.


Nobody ever complained that this box was too big ;-)

You will also be using industrial grade 20a devices to find ones that
will accept 10 ga wire. Most 15 and 20a devices are limited to 12 ga.

I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather
something more substantial. I may have to hold one in my hand to see what
back wired is all about.

They mean the clamping plate that is under the screw on better
devices. That is true on spec/commercial grade devices but your normal
Home Depot $1 special just has screw terminals and maybe the dreaded
spring back stab hole.

Excellent, thanks. I'm with you on avoiding the spring loaded back
stabbers.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:59:51 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:18:33 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:37:01 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:30:59 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
Hi folks,

I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my
back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and
I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to
code.

Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but
does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled
THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home
Depot.

I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He
has his markup,
of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your
shed to gather
dust.

If I go with UF-B, it looks like I can use the leftovers for inside wiring
to the lights and receptacles, so I could easily use the whole 150ft.

I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe
aluminum wire
would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it,
though.

I know AL is still used for some purposes, but I thin I want to stick with
CU.

You are going to find that if you are wiring devices with #10 you
better have greatly oversized boxes or you will have a real hard time
stuffing that wire back in there. The fill calc for #10 is 2 cu/in per
conductor and 4 more cu/in for the device. That adds up fast and the
minimum size you come up with still might be hard to use.

I have plenty of room, so using a bigger box to get room to work wouldn't
be a problem. I haven't bought any of that stuff yet.

You will also be using industrial grade 20a devices to find ones that
will accept 10 ga wire. Most 15 and 20a devices are limited to 12 ga.

I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather
something more substantial. I may have to hold one in my hand to see what
back wired is all about.
Terminate the BigAssedWire in a junction box and tap it off to 12 or
14 for your devices.

Agreed. I may not have said much about that but it's sort of what I was
thinking. Thanks.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:40:39 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:02 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:24:51 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

Hi folks,

I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my
back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and
I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to
code.

If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv,
and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the
shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end,
I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than
wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd
run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it.

I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing
in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose
most people don't care about that anymore.


And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a
pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-)

What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the
kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-)

These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you
need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the
trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-)

You have a point about learning when dinner is ready, but you can't get
beer from cell phone.

That is why he needs a beer fridge out there. What do you think he
wants the power for in the first place?

I actually started out thinking I wanted solar, but I'd have to hide it
from the HOA. They have a strict rule against it, saying it negatively
affects property values, in their opinion. Fortunately, the south side of
the roof shed faces away from the street and is all the way in the back
yard. But here we are, abandoning solar in favor of AC.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:12:50 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

Good. I plan to rent a trencher so this is not a manual dig.

If that is the case and you don't hit "ledge" or some other solid
obstacle I would go as deep as is practical (up to 24"). Nobody ever
got it trouble being too deep. Get a stick of 1" RNC (gray PVC) to
protect the cable as it comes out of the ground and 2 gray boxes to
make the turn into the building. Pack the pipe with duct seal around
the cable so ants don't have a tunnel into the box. You could use
"LBs" (conduit bodies) but boxes will let you add additional outdoor
receptacles on that circuit. Pigtail the connection with wirenuts.
Don't use the device as your splice.

On 11/19/2019 10:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:

Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable?


***

Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I
appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might
be overlooking.



As long as you're trenching, two 1" conduits minimum, one for power and one for telecom.Â* And since a shed is a good place to run a generator, consider adding a generator circuit as well.

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 9:20:50 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

14 gauge doesn't meet code for a 20A circuit, which is what he says
he's running, but 12g does and I agree that's much better than running
10g.




I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

On 11/21/2019 8:20 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
....

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga?Â* Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower.Â* Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

The paltry few bucks saved will _NOT_ be made up for by the pita factor
in using 10 in the boxes, agreed.

And, I'd also say that the few $$ difference between 10/2 and 10/3 isn't
enough to not go ahead and bury the 3-wire so you have the option for
240V available if needs/wants change down the road.

What meets code depends on what breaker size install, though...isn't it
still required to run 12 if use 20A even tho lights portion of the
circuit now w/ LEDs won't ever come close?

--

In article , says...

The paltry few bucks saved will _NOT_ be made up for by the pita factor
in using 10 in the boxes, agreed.

And, I'd also say that the few $$ difference between 10/2 and 10/3 isn't
enough to not go ahead and bury the 3-wire so you have the option for
240V available if needs/wants change down the road.

What meets code depends on what breaker size install, though...isn't it
still required to run 12 if use 20A even tho lights portion of the
circuit now w/ LEDs won't ever come close?

--




The real thing to do is not to be so cheap. Run # 10 wire to the
building with a 30 amp breaker, put in a breaker box with some 20 and
15 amp breakers. Then Run # 12 and 14 wires where needed. The # 12 is
hard enough to work with in some boxes.

All wires have to be sized large enough for what ever breaker feeds
them. If you have a 20 amp breaker, you have to run atleast # 12 even
if it is just to a 7 watt night light.

Jim Joyce writes:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:28:02 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:47:03 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:
Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity?

No, I did not. Ugh!

IDK, with the sub-panel full and those major loads already on it,
it doesn't sound too good. I hope it's bigger than 100A.

Dryer 30
HVAC 30
Stove 40 or
Ovens + Cooktop 60....

30+30+40 is right. It's unlikely that everything would be drawing power at
the same time, but it's possible. There's nothing left available for the
shed then. Hmmm...

As was pointed out, the breakers for those loads are sized for worse
case loads. Consider the stove/oven, once it reaches the target temperature,
it cycles on/off as necessary. Even if you have all four burners on and
are warming up the oven, it won't draw the full 40 amps listed above
continously.

Same is true for Dryer and HVAC.

micky writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:


I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather

I'm sure it does.

They stopped saying "back-stabbed" because it encouraged violence.

No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:08:00 GMT, (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

micky writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:


I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather

I'm sure it does.

They stopped saying "back-stabbed" because it encouraged violence.

No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

They are still listed but limited to 14ga wire.

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 11/21/2019 8:20 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga?Â* Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower.Â* Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

The paltry few bucks saved will _NOT_ be made up for by the pita factor
in using 10 in the boxes, agreed.

And, I'd also say that the few $$ difference between 10/2 and 10/3 isn't
enough to not go ahead and bury the 3-wire so you have the option for
240V available if needs/wants change down the road.

With 240, even if he does not need it, it would allow an Edison circuit, so he could get TWO 120v 20a circuits, with the same 20a limit. All depends on what might be done with the shed. It certainly does not add much to the total cost.



What meets code depends on what breaker size install, though...isn't it
still required to run 12 if use 20A even tho lights portion of the
circuit now w/ LEDs won't ever come close?

--

That's my understanding.

On 11/21/2019 11:08 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

What you believe is not relevant or useful.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

It's a 4ft LED shop light. The specs say it draws 35 watts. :-) So yeah,
12ga is overkill.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

Agreed.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 08:44:44 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 11/21/2019 8:20 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
...

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga?* Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower.* Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

The paltry few bucks saved will _NOT_ be made up for by the pita factor
in using 10 in the boxes, agreed.

And, I'd also say that the few $$ difference between 10/2 and 10/3 isn't
enough to not go ahead and bury the 3-wire so you have the option for
240V available if needs/wants change down the road.

With 240, even if he does not need it, it would allow an Edison circuit, so he could get TWO 120v 20a circuits, with the same 20a limit. All depends on what might be done with the shed. It certainly does not add much to the total cost.

I was thinking 10/3 UF is almost double the cost of 10/2, but I see that I
was probably mixing some 8/2 into that research. 8ga ratchets up the cost,
compared to 10ga, especially 8/3. I've abandoned the idea of 8ga, though.


What meets code depends on what breaker size install, though...isn't it
still required to run 12 if use 20A even tho lights portion of the
circuit now w/ LEDs won't ever come close?

--

That's my understanding.

Understood. Thanks, everyone, for the reminder.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:08:00 GMT,
(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

micky writes:
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:


I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch
can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired".
I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather

I'm sure it does.

They stopped saying "back-stabbed" because it encouraged violence.

No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

Maybe that's because the Code is opposed to violence?

I note that there are no electical connections called shot, and ftm that
Quaker Puffed Wheat is no longer called "shot from guns".

I have long been opposed to violence among electrical devices and
cereal.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:43:43 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:40:39 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:02 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:24:51 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

Hi folks,

I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my
back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and
I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to
code.

If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv,
and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the
shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end,
I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than
wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd
run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it.

I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing
in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose
most people don't care about that anymore.


And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a
pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-)

What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the
kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-)

These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you
need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the
trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-)

You have a point about learning when dinner is ready, but you can't get
beer from cell phone.

That is why he needs a beer fridge out there. What do you think he
wants the power for in the first place?

I actually started out thinking I wanted solar, but I'd have to hide it
from the HOA. They have a strict rule against it, saying it negatively
affects property values, in their opinion. Fortunately, the south side of
the roof shed faces away from the street and is all the way in the back
yard. But here we are, abandoning solar in favor of AC.
In my shed I have 2 solar motion sensing led "security lights" - one
in the main floor area and one in the attic. Makes it so I can see
whatever U'm looking for. If I need to WORK in the shed I generally
use my cordless tools but I also have a 12 guauge ext cord that I can
run from the garage. If I need 220 I can fire up the generator I store
in the shed (after moving it outside, of course)
The solar lights have roughly 8 inch square solar panel each mounted
to the south facing gabel of the roof.

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:28:38 -0500, Barb
wrote:

On 11/21/2019 11:08 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

What you believe is not relevant or useful.

Welcome to AHR, Barb.

But it's better that he preface his statement with "I believe that" than
that he make a flat statement when he's not sure (as some people do).

And since he might have been right and he was partially right, its
better that he puts the thought on the table for people to consider, and
so gfretwell can modify his thought to make it accurate.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:28:38 -0500, Barb wrote:

On 11/21/2019 11:08 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
No, the leviton devices are not called back-stabbed because they
aren't. Back-wired use screws for the connection - back-stabbed
have springs that catch on the wire and hold it in. I believe that
these (back-stabbed) are no longer code compliant.

What you believe is not relevant or useful.
Darn things should never have been listed in the first place. Just
trouble waiting to happen.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:54:03 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

It's a 4ft LED shop light. The specs say it draws 35 watts. :-) So yeah,
12ga is overkill.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

Agreed.
My single strip 4 foot LED lamp is 17 watts and puts out more light
than my old 2 tube flourescent in the garage over the lathe

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:11:54 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:54:03 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

It's a 4ft LED shop light. The specs say it draws 35 watts. :-) So yeah,
12ga is overkill.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

Agreed.
My single strip 4 foot LED lamp is 17 watts and puts out more light
than my old 2 tube flourescent in the garage over the lathe

Yep, it's pretty impressive how the new lighting is brighter (in lumens),
cooler (higher temp, closer to daylight), and also draws less power. I like
all three of those things, although I know that some people prefer the
golden glows of warmer light.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:03:58 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:43:43 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 23:40:39 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:02 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:24:51 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

Hi folks,

I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my
back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and
I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to
code.

If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv,
and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the
shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end,
I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than
wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd
run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it.

I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing
in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose
most people don't care about that anymore.


And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a
pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-)

What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the
kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-)

These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you
need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the
trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-)

You have a point about learning when dinner is ready, but you can't get
beer from cell phone.

That is why he needs a beer fridge out there. What do you think he
wants the power for in the first place?

I actually started out thinking I wanted solar, but I'd have to hide it
from the HOA. They have a strict rule against it, saying it negatively
affects property values, in their opinion. Fortunately, the south side of
the roof shed faces away from the street and is all the way in the back
yard. But here we are, abandoning solar in favor of AC.
In my shed I have 2 solar motion sensing led "security lights" - one
in the main floor area and one in the attic. Makes it so I can see
whatever U'm looking for. If I need to WORK in the shed I generally
use my cordless tools but I also have a 12 guauge ext cord that I can
run from the garage. If I need 220 I can fire up the generator I store
in the shed (after moving it outside, of course)
The solar lights have roughly 8 inch square solar panel each mounted
to the south facing gabel of the roof.

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.

In article ,
lid says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.

Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.

Depends on the State. Some states forbid HOA's from preventing solar
installations.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.


It depends on the state law. Many states have told HOAs they can't ban
solar collectors and they will be mandatory in California soon (new
construction) if not already. The law was passed, I am just not sure
of the implementation date.

On 11/21/2019 6:46 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Ralph Mowery writes:
In article ,
lid says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.

Depends on the State. Some states forbid HOA's from preventing solar
installations.

Once AOC gets the New Greed Deal passes, solar panels will become
mandatory. Even umbrellas will have solar panels so you can walk and
charge your phone.

Note: Greed was a typo for Green. Somehow though, I think it is a
better description.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:44:57 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:11:54 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:54:03 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

It's a 4ft LED shop light. The specs say it draws 35 watts. :-) So yeah,
12ga is overkill.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

Agreed.
My single strip 4 foot LED lamp is 17 watts and puts out more light
than my old 2 tube flourescent in the garage over the lathe

Yep, it's pretty impressive how the new lighting is brighter (in lumens),
cooler (higher temp, closer to daylight), and also draws less power. I like
all three of those things, although I know that some people prefer the
golden glows of warmer light.
Which can also be acheived with LEDs

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.

and clothes lines (at least here in Ontario)

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:36:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.
Not only not required but not recommended - as in "not kosher"

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:24:42 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:36:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.
Not only not required but not recommended - as in "not kosher"

Cite that. It certainly is not in the NEC nor is it in the
instructions from Ideal

https://idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WireNut/WireNut%20WireConnector%20Instructions.pdf

see #5.

I am always amazed at how much mis information and urban legend that
gets cited as fact on the internet.

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:18:26 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:24:42 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:36:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.
Not only not required but not recommended - as in "not kosher"

Cite that. It certainly is not in the NEC nor is it in the
instructions from Ideal

https://idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WireNut/WireNut%20WireConnector%20Instructions.pdf

see #5.

I am always amazed at how much mis information and urban legend that
gets cited as fact on the internet.
From Ed McLaren, an instructor at ATT:
Not only is pre-twisting not required, it is not recommended.
The internal "thread" of the wirenut will get a better grip on the
wires if you do not pre-twist. The wires will conform better to the
shape of the internal thread if the wirenut does the twisting.

I don't like Ideals - prefer Marrett connectors. The way the "spring"
is designrd they actually work better not pretwisted.
and just for information, Bill Marr INVENTED the wire nut in 1914.
In Canada. Their "true Blue" is the Cat's Ass for general residential
wiring. They do now say pre-twisting is acceptable. Wasn't back in '69
with the old black phenolics - or in the 70s with the ACS (for
aluminum oe Aluminum/Copper)

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on
the south half of the shed roof. It's a 16x16 roof, so there's probably
room for what, half a dozen or more, solar panels? Then the rest of the
pieces required to run that power into a bank of batteries and then convert
it to 120vac for use at standard lighting and receptacles. Higher initial
cost, but it's pretty sweet after that. I don't think the HOA spies would
see it from the street, but one of the neighbors might inadvertently spill
the beans. Then I'd be sitting with a bunch of equipment that I'd have to
sell or give away.




With the government over riding things of the HOA, surprises me that
they have not done that for solar panels. They did that for the small
Direct TV type antennas.

and clothes lines (at least here in Ontario)


I tried using my clothes line as a Direct TV antenna, but it didnt' work
well. Then I hung solar sells from it and that worked much better.
When the HOA narcs come by, I pull the line back in.