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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)
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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


In their current form, solar panels aren't sexy to me, but they are quite
quickly looking more practical in recent years. As for the conduit, I don't
think anything looks worse than to paint it.

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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 22:11:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:18:26 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:24:42 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:36:09 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.
Not only not required but not recommended - as in "not kosher"


Cite that. It certainly is not in the NEC nor is it in the
instructions from Ideal

https://idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WireNut/WireNut%20WireConnector%20Instructions.pdf

see #5.

I am always amazed at how much mis information and urban legend that
gets cited as fact on the internet.

From Ed McLaren, an instructor at ATT:
Not only is pre-twisting not required, it is not recommended.
The internal "thread" of the wirenut will get a better grip on the
wires if you do not pre-twist. The wires will conform better to the
shape of the internal thread if the wirenut does the twisting.

I don't like Ideals - prefer Marrett connectors. The way the "spring"
is designrd they actually work better not pretwisted.
and just for information, Bill Marr INVENTED the wire nut in 1914.
In Canada. Their "true Blue" is the Cat's Ass for general residential
wiring. They do now say pre-twisting is acceptable. Wasn't back in '69
with the old black phenolics - or in the 70s with the ACS (for
aluminum oe Aluminum/Copper)


The connection is already there if the wire is twisted up tight,
before the wirenut is screwed on. At that point is it is only
providing insulation. With the nut you have a splice that might be so
hard to pull apart that the wire could break first.
3M does make a live spring twist on connector if you prefer that style
and they do work better when the wires are not twisted.
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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-)


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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:13:17 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


In their current form, solar panels aren't sexy to me, but they are quite
quickly looking more practical in recent years. As for the conduit, I don't
think anything looks worse than to paint it.


If it is painted to match the background color it isn't horrible. The
lights in my screen cage are run with EMT and it pretty much just
disappears against the framing. It is bronze tho.
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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 11:02:35 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:13:17 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on

I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


In their current form, solar panels aren't sexy to me, but they are quite
quickly looking more practical in recent years. As for the conduit, I don't
think anything looks worse than to paint it.


If it is painted to match the background color it isn't horrible. The
lights in my screen cage are run with EMT and it pretty much just
disappears against the framing. It is bronze tho.


IDK what's so terrible about painting conduit either. As long as it's done
right. For a new install, I'd spray paint most of it before it's put up,
then do the joints, touch it up, after it's up. But the panels are just
as ugly and no hiding them.



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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

trader_4 writes:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:59:40 AM UTC-5, wrote:



Elon Musk made a lot of noise with his design that looked like real
shingles. But apparently it was mostly hype and BS, to the point that
investors have complained that they were defrauded with his statements,
claiming more were installed than actually were, etc. From last I read,
almost all have been installed in a small radius of the factory and
it took several crews 3 weeks to do the install.


You may want to find more up to date information.

But the biggest problem
is they cost about 3X what a regular system costs. Which means they
are for the rich hippies, Hollywood stars, etc.


Until, of course, volume and competition bring the prices down. Welcome
to the free enterprise system.
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On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 11:55:56 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-


The southern exposure was the deciding factor for me not to put in
anything solar. The house is longways to the road. That would put the
solar facing the road or it would take up the yard that is toward the
road. It would look ugly on the roof. No neighbors to worry about, just
me. The back side which would be fine for solar as far as the layout
goes, however it faces north and if I tried to angle the solar south
they would be in the shade.

I just could not see much savings or payback in my lifetime. The power
bill is is less than $ 200 a month.By the time I saved on the power
bill, the solar would probably be due for replacement.


Agree with everything but the payback. If your bill is $150, in ten
years, that's $18K and the after tax cost is about that or less.
The system should last over twice as long.






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On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 12:11:14 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
trader_4 writes:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:59:40 AM UTC-5, wrote:



Elon Musk made a lot of noise with his design that looked like real
shingles. But apparently it was mostly hype and BS, to the point that
investors have complained that they were defrauded with his statements,
claiming more were installed than actually were, etc. From last I read,
almost all have been installed in a small radius of the factory and
it took several crews 3 weeks to do the install.


You may want to find more up to date information.

But the biggest problem
is they cost about 3X what a regular system costs. Which means they
are for the rich hippies, Hollywood stars, etc.


Until, of course, volume and competition bring the prices down. Welcome
to the free enterprise system.



As usual, you add nothing, just tell others to go do research.
Why are Democrats so lazy?


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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:13:17 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


In their current form, solar panels aren't sexy to me, but they are quite
quickly looking more practical in recent years. As for the conduit, I don't
think anything looks worse than to paint it.


It seems to me they make conduit that comes brown and stays brown.

If not, I would have rather had the conduit go through the roof, through
a closet, through a corner of the first floor** and to the basement
than have it outside like that.

**Or through a corner of the second floor and a closet on the first
floor.
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In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:59:07 -0500,
wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 00:34:22 -0500, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:23:04 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:03:05 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Please, no encouragement needed. It wouldn't take a whole lot for me to
say FU to the HOA and put a whole roof full of full size solar panels on


I live in an HOA and one a small number of my neighbors have installed
solar cells. One installation looks terrible. They used galvanized
conduit and ran it a foot or two to the edge of hte roof, then around
the gutter then down the whole front of the house. It looks terrible.
The whole thing looks terrible because of that.

The house was brown to begin with. Don't they make brown conduit?

(Even that wouldn't be enough fo rme, but it would look a heck of a lot
better. They haven't tried to paint it either.)


You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-)


My friend has them on the ground, but it's a big lot and they face a
farm. They are hid from her view by a bunch of bushes. She bought the
house this way. It's a hilly neighborhood amidst a lot of farm land,
and she found out after she bought the house that it used to be flat
like the rest of the area, but the developer made hills so it would look
more interesting.
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In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:32:25 -0500, micky
wrote:


My friend has them on the ground, but it's a big lot and they face a
farm. They are hid from her view by a bunch of bushes. She bought the
house this way. It's a hilly neighborhood amidst a lot of farm land,
and she found out after she bought the house that it used to be flat
like the rest of the area, but the developer made hills so it would look
more interesting.


Maybe should add that she was really happy with how big her electic
credits were for the first few years. Then they went down a lot. About
a year ago someone wrote her offering her, I forget, maybe $4000 for the
rest of her credits forever. and not too long after that, her credits
started climbing again, at least half the way to where they used to be.

It seems someone knew rates were going to go up so he tried to buy the
credits when they seemed low in value.

This is maryland fwiw.

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On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:14:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 11:55:56 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-


The southern exposure was the deciding factor for me not to put in
anything solar. The house is longways to the road. That would put the
solar facing the road or it would take up the yard that is toward the
road. It would look ugly on the roof. No neighbors to worry about, just
me. The back side which would be fine for solar as far as the layout
goes, however it faces north and if I tried to angle the solar south
they would be in the shade.

I just could not see much savings or payback in my lifetime. The power
bill is is less than $ 200 a month.By the time I saved on the power
bill, the solar would probably be due for replacement.


Agree with everything but the payback. If your bill is $150, in ten
years, that's $18K and the after tax cost is about that or less.
The system should last over twice as long.


The problem with all of that is they don't talk about maintenance or
the fact that collectors don't really put out the rated amount of
power. Even here in sunny Florida they are telling us plan on the
rated power per hour times 5 or 6 per day. (not the 12 people might be
told) That gets worse as they age.
Add to that the fact that when (not if) your roof starts leaking, they
have to remove the whole system to replace the roof.
One good hurricane and it is all gone anyway.
I know panels are getting a lot cheaper and for some folks it might be
a good deal but most off that deal is tax incentives and a favorable
treatment forced on electrical suppliers by the government. Basically
you are being subsidized by your neighbors who don't have
$20,000-30,000 to put on their roof. Welfare for the rich.


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writes:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:14:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 11:55:56 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-


The southern exposure was the deciding factor for me not to put in
anything solar. The house is longways to the road. That would put the
solar facing the road or it would take up the yard that is toward the
road. It would look ugly on the roof. No neighbors to worry about, just
me. The back side which would be fine for solar as far as the layout
goes, however it faces north and if I tried to angle the solar south
they would be in the shade.

I just could not see much savings or payback in my lifetime. The power
bill is is less than $ 200 a month.By the time I saved on the power
bill, the solar would probably be due for replacement.


Agree with everything but the payback. If your bill is $150, in ten
years, that's $18K and the after tax cost is about that or less.
The system should last over twice as long.


The problem with all of that is they don't talk about maintenance or
the fact that collectors don't really put out the rated amount of
power. Even here in sunny Florida they are telling us plan on the
rated power per hour times 5 or 6 per day. (not the 12 people might be
told) That gets worse as they age.
Add to that the fact that when (not if) your roof starts leaking, they
have to remove the whole system to replace the roof.
One good hurricane and it is all gone anyway.
I know panels are getting a lot cheaper and for some folks it might be
a good deal but most off that deal is tax incentives and a favorable
treatment forced on electrical suppliers by the government. Basically
you are being subsidized by your neighbors who don't have
$20,000-30,000 to put on their roof. Welfare for the rich.


It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits; and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.

And they get cheaper every year.

Removing the system takes an hour or two, as does putting it back in the
extremely unlikely event you need to replace your roof. Those panels are
quite light and the mounting mechanisms are simple to emplace and remove.

Hurricanes may be a problem for you, but not for the majority of
American households.

And it doesn't take a genius to realize that sunlight starts out weak at sunrise, builds
to a peak when the sun is overhead, and gradually weakens as the sun
sets. If someone tells you that the panels generate a constant
amount of energy as long as the sun is shining, more fool you.

A competent installer takes into account many factors when designing a
system to produce X KWh annually; including the seasonal insolation based
on latitude and any obstructions (trees, etc). The number of panels
will be the result of a sophisticated computer program that calculates
what's needed (a hand-held device that, when placed in the location of
the panels, will locate obstructions automatically, measure latitude and
azimuth and recommend panel placement and number).

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On 11/22/2019 6:25 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits; and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.



LOL!Â* The solar companies around here make the HVAC thieves look like a bunch of boy scouts.

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On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:25:09 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
writes:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:14:19 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 11:55:56 AM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

You can paint conduit but I doubt they had a lot of choice about the
location. In this hemisphere, the collectors need a southern exposure.
It is one thing that keeps them from really being attractive for me.
My ridge line runs north and south so half the day they would be in
the shade. I also don't like the idea of poking holes in my roof. I
would prefer them on the ground but the neighbors would really hate
that ;-


The southern exposure was the deciding factor for me not to put in
anything solar. The house is longways to the road. That would put the
solar facing the road or it would take up the yard that is toward the
road. It would look ugly on the roof. No neighbors to worry about, just
me. The back side which would be fine for solar as far as the layout
goes, however it faces north and if I tried to angle the solar south
they would be in the shade.

I just could not see much savings or payback in my lifetime. The power
bill is is less than $ 200 a month.By the time I saved on the power
bill, the solar would probably be due for replacement.

Agree with everything but the payback. If your bill is $150, in ten
years, that's $18K and the after tax cost is about that or less.
The system should last over twice as long.


The problem with all of that is they don't talk about maintenance or
the fact that collectors don't really put out the rated amount of
power. Even here in sunny Florida they are telling us plan on the
rated power per hour times 5 or 6 per day. (not the 12 people might be
told) That gets worse as they age.
Add to that the fact that when (not if) your roof starts leaking, they
have to remove the whole system to replace the roof.
One good hurricane and it is all gone anyway.
I know panels are getting a lot cheaper and for some folks it might be
a good deal but most off that deal is tax incentives and a favorable
treatment forced on electrical suppliers by the government. Basically
you are being subsidized by your neighbors who don't have
$20,000-30,000 to put on their roof. Welfare for the rich.


It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits;


BS



and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.

And they get cheaper every year.

Removing the system takes an hour or two, as does putting it back in the
extremely unlikely event you need to replace your roof.


BS squared.



Those panels are
quite light and the mounting mechanisms are simple to emplace and remove.

Hurricanes may be a problem for you, but not for the majority of
American households.

And it doesn't take a genius to realize that sunlight starts out weak at sunrise, builds
to a peak when the sun is overhead, and gradually weakens as the sun
sets. If someone tells you that the panels generate a constant
amount of energy as long as the sun is shining, more fool you.

A competent installer takes into account many factors when designing a
system to produce X KWh annually; including the seasonal insolation based
on latitude and any obstructions (trees, etc). The number of panels
will be the result of a sophisticated computer program that calculates
what's needed (a hand-held device that, when placed in the location of
the panels, will locate obstructions automatically, measure latitude and
azimuth and recommend panel placement and number).


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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 18:54:24 -0500, Bod F wrote:

On 11/22/2019 6:25 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits; and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.



LOL!Â* The solar companies around here make the HVAC thieves look like a bunch of boy scouts.


That does seem to be true. They are marking this stuff up over 100%
and then tacking on labor based on the last time I looked and what the
street price was on the panels they were installing.
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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 7:14:03 PM UTC-5, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits; and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.




So far I do not recall anyone saying if you put that 10,000 in stock or
something giving aorund 5% interist or if you had to borrow that 10,000
for 5 or more years what would be the payback.

What is the cost reduction per month or year in percent ? Do you save
50 % or 75 % of the cost of electricity ?


Generally they try to size it so that it generates about what you use
in total energy, so your bill would be close to zero. But its' not
necessarily so simple. For example, here in NJ, solar customers get
certificates for the amount of energy their solar array generates.
It doesn't matter if you used all of that electric or put some of
it into the grid. The electric companies are under a mandate to get
X% of their energy each year from renewables and home solar counts
toward that. So, the power companies then buy these certificates
in an auction from the solar array owners. How much you then get
varies. It was pretty high, with early adopters getting thousands
for those certificates some years ago. More recently I think it's
gone down quite a bit.

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On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:54:57 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 22:11:41 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:18:26 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:24:42 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 19:36:09 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:46:41 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:09:15 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:09 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:20:45 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/21/2019 12:12 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:02:45 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote:

There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong.

First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would
be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a
more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will
drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a
20 a circuit.

I've evolved to thinking UF-B 10/2 (with 10ga ground) will work for this
application. I would bury 120ft of the 150ft roll, which gets me from the
exterior of the house to the interior of the shed. Once inside the shed, I
can use the scrap UF (about 30 feet or less left over) to run to
receptacles and then some 12ga to run to lights.

What kind of lights are you putting in that you need 12 ga? Must be
powerful spotlights or airport tower. Much easier working with 14 and
meets code.

I know you want to use the leftover 10 for the receptacles but 12 is
easier to work with too.

It won't be horrible if he wirenuts the #10, pigtails some #12 on to
go to the devices and shoves bulk of the wire in the back of the box.
As long as he uses deep boxes and shallow devices. I much prefer
using a blind junction box (no devices - blank cover) if not
installing a disconnect or "sub panel" with breakers to break down
from heavy wire to light. Pushing around stiff wires in the device box
is a good way to stress the wirenut connection - possibly causing
future problems.

Thanks. I'll be keeping that in mind. I agree with that observation.

Although not required in the listing and installation instructions
twisting the wires tight and trimming to length, then screwing on the
wire nut makes a better splice that is not going to come loose.
Not only not required but not recommended - as in "not kosher"

Cite that. It certainly is not in the NEC nor is it in the
instructions from Ideal

https://idealind.com/content/dam/electrical/assets/WireTermination/WireConnectors/TwistOn/WireNut/WireNut%20WireConnector%20Instructions.pdf

see #5.

I am always amazed at how much mis information and urban legend that
gets cited as fact on the internet.

From Ed McLaren, an instructor at ATT:
Not only is pre-twisting not required, it is not recommended.
The internal "thread" of the wirenut will get a better grip on the
wires if you do not pre-twist. The wires will conform better to the
shape of the internal thread if the wirenut does the twisting.

I don't like Ideals - prefer Marrett connectors. The way the "spring"
is designrd they actually work better not pretwisted.
and just for information, Bill Marr INVENTED the wire nut in 1914.
In Canada. Their "true Blue" is the Cat's Ass for general residential
wiring. They do now say pre-twisting is acceptable. Wasn't back in '69
with the old black phenolics - or in the 70s with the ACS (for
aluminum oe Aluminum/Copper)


The connection is already there if the wire is twisted up tight,
before the wirenut is screwed on. At that point is it is only
providing insulation. With the nut you have a splice that might be so
hard to pull apart that the wire could break first.
3M does make a live spring twist on connector if you prefer that style
and they do work better when the wires are not twisted.

The wirenuts with the square wire coils are designed to "thread"
themselves onto the parallel conductors, forcing them together to make
a tight connection BEFORE tristing them together for mechanical
strength. Properly installed the joint will NOT come loose. Twist the
wires first and the connection never gets as tight.
The ECS connectors are NOT square wire because they are made for
aluminum where you do NOT want to cut thread-forms into the
conductor!!


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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 01:47:06 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 17:17:50 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 8:04:24 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 19:13:53 -0500, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

It costs about $10k for a typical system nowadays with credits; and that won't change
much next year, even with the 50% cut in the federal tax credit. And
the payback period runs from 7 to 10 years depending on your insolation
and average electric supplier rates.




So far I do not recall anyone saying if you put that 10,000 in stock or
something giving aorund 5% interist or if you had to borrow that 10,000
for 5 or more years what would be the payback.

What is the cost reduction per month or year in percent ? Do you save
50 % or 75 % of the cost of electricity ?

My electric bill is well over $200 a month at 11 cents a KWH so to
make a dent in that we are talking a pretty big system, far more than
I have acceptable roof for.


I think they are pushing 300W a panel now, so for a 6KW system, you'd need
about 20.


I averaged 73KWH a day, to do that I need about 46 of those 300w
collectors.



I average 28 a day and the peak in the summer was 39. Would not be
difficult get the power but the cost is not justified. Top bill for
the year was $130 with lots of AC but winter with heat is only $50.
With a month to go, I anticipate $1200 for the year.

When I lived in CT, it would have been near double that.
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Default New electrical circuit - requesting assistance

trader_4 writes:
On Friday, November 22, 2019 at 6:25:09 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:



Removing the system takes an hour or two, as does putting it back in the
extremely unlikely event you need to replace your roof.


BS squared.


My system was installed and wired in 4 hours.



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