Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

--
Cheryl

Cheryl wrote:
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.


I have no difinitive answers, and am not an electrician by any means,
however many years back I had an experience that also made no sense
like getting power to circuits that were clearly turned off.
The problem in our case was a new concrete footing settled onto the
power line coming into the house and caused a short between the
different phases of the line. So turning on a switch on one circuit
caused appliances in another circuit to turn on!

Another possibility is that your appliances are actually continually
running at low power and the "surges" you are experiencing are actually
the appliances returning to normal.

As for how to decide if you want the power company to comeout or an
electrician, check your neighbors and see if they are having the same
problem. If they are all having the same problem, have the power
company come out. If it is just your house (and there is no obvious
damage to the wiring just outside your house) and electrician is
probably the right answer.

RBV

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", RBV
artfully composed this
message within news:HFvvc.4112$eP.786@lakeread01 on 02 Jun 2004:


Thank you. I'll check with the neighbors as you suggest. Yours
sounds like a strange problem! Glad you got it worked out. If I may
ask, who ended up being at "fault" for that and had to pay? I can
sort of see it going either way, unless the wiring wasn't marked
properly when the new footing was put in, or something. Even
then... hhmmm...


Another possibility is that your appliances are actually
continually running at low power and the "surges" you are
experiencing are actually the appliances returning to normal.

Ya know, I thought this a few times. If this is the case, I like it
better when the "surge" occurs. My kitchen has better lighting
during those. Tonight is really bad which is prompting my query.
It doesn't happen like this often which could possibly make it
harder to diagnose? Tonight is making me want to turn off all
electrical appliances.


--
Cheryl
/on battery powered laptop

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no.

this isnt entirely true. although the types of things that need to happen
to cause this situation are rare, they do exist.

It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.


it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors. take a
look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and find the people
connected to the same line as you, as close to you as possible. if you're
the only one, its probably your wiring. probably somewhere between the
panel in the house and the line coming into the house.

randy

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor"
artfully composed this message within
on 02 Jun 2004:

it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors.
take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and
find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to
you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your
wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and
the line coming into the house.

Thank you. I'll do this!

--
Cheryl

Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.



"Cheryl" wrote in message
news
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor"
artfully composed this message within
on 02 Jun 2004:

it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors.
take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and
find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to
you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your
wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and
the line coming into the house.

Thank you. I'll do this!

--
Cheryl

Cheryl wrote:

.... If I may
ask, who ended up being at "fault" for that and had to pay? I can
sort of see it going either way, unless the wiring wasn't marked
properly when the new footing was put in, or something. Even
then... hhmmm...


I think the power company said something like "The footing should not
have been put here... " but paid for a new line anyway.

RBV

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.


You probably have a bad connection somewhere, most likely at the mains
breaker panel.....

Feel the breaker switches for heat, could be one of the breakers is going
bad and will melt down pretty soon ....

Have someone who knows what they are doing come look at it, poke around,
jiggle wires and that sort of thing--a liscensed electrician would be a good
person to do this....

There will likely be some heat and probably a discolored terminal from that
heat wherever the problem is at.

Oh, and dont mess around waiting, the condition is dangerous as it is, and
certainly isnt gonna improve with time.

--

SVL

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
"Cheryl" wrote in message
...

Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.



You probably have a bad connection somewhere, most likely at the mains
breaker panel.....

Feel the breaker switches for heat, could be one of the breakers is going
bad and will melt down pretty soon ....

Have someone who knows what they are doing come look at it, poke around,
jiggle wires and that sort of thing--a liscensed electrician would be a good
person to do this....

There will likely be some heat and probably a discolored terminal from that
heat wherever the problem is at.

Oh, and dont mess around waiting, the condition is dangerous as it is, and
certainly isnt gonna improve with time.

Hi,
May smell too around where the trouble is if there is one.
Tony

Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

"George E. Cawthon" wrote in message
...


Dan Hartung wrote:

Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that
we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made
for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those
quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across
wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

I don't think it is a legend, that means several people believe it and
nobody that knows anything about utilities would believe this. Any
power company that did this would quickly go out of business from
lawsuits.

Its complete and utter nonsense--the first clue is to consider what kind of
switchgear would need to be intalled on the utilities lines in order to
accomplish such a thing......

--

SVL

Dan Hartung wrote:

Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

I don't think it is a legend, that means several people believe it and
nobody that knows anything about utilities would believe this. Any
power company that did this would quickly go out of business from
lawsuits.

George E. Cawthon wrote:

Dan Hartung wrote:

Lost-In-Translation wrote:

Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched
power line is more dangerous.


I don't think it is a legend, that means several people believe it and
nobody that knows anything about utilities would believe this. Any
power company that did this would quickly go out of business from
lawsuits.
Hi,
I am just smiling. Over the years(~30 years or so) I have seen many sags
but surge? Very seldom. I used to monitor power line a lot with monitor.
Tony

"Dan Hartung" wrote in message
...
Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made
for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those
quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across
wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

I really wish it were, but in South Florida, where FPL has a monopolistic
choke hold on millions of customers - it's exactly what they do and they
admitted it on a local news story as a "necessary maintenance proceedure"
and that the "average" customer would only experience "pennies" added to
their power bills to accomplish this. They just didn't say how many
"pennies" over time, 5? 10? 100? 1,000,000,000? Who knows.

I've actually seen branches laying across utility lines in my neighborhood
area, many lay they for a very long time then, for some reason, they start
to burn and break off.

We had to replace several small things like DVDs and VCRs after one particular
very brief (like momentary) power outage and the subsequent surge. I am in FL
where this happens often. Now all my small stuff and computers are on surge
suppressers. I checked with power company and they recommend whole house surge
suppressers and they will install - but the costs is very high.

One of my neighbors is an electrician for county and he said he has a whole
house ss but had someone (private co) install it and it was cheaper.

It is a neighborhood problem around here.

Dorothy

Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home? Is the electrical
service underground or overhead? Can you correlate the flickering lights
with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere in your area? Do any of your
neighbors have the same experiences? What sort of major electric appliances
do you have (Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)? Do you have an
emergency generator connected to your home? Did you make any changes to
your home or install anything prior to the beginning of the flickering
problem? Do you have a battery back up system for your home computer? Do
you have a large copy machine or printer that is left on most of the time?
How close is your home to the power company's nearest substation? Has there
been any major construction in your area recently such as the opening of a
new office building, shopping center, or housing development?

The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into
your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your
location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments
and connect it to your service. That might provide you with tangible
evidence as to the cause.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

--
Cheryl

John Grabowski comes up with the most sensible solution:

The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into
your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your
location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments
and connect it to your service.

There were problems at my house some time ago. Power company hooked up a
recording voltmeter to the line and confirmed voltage spikes. After a lot of
activity at the local substation, the problem was resolved, apparently a near
to failure step down transformer.
In resolving your situation, be sure to consider the possibility of inadequate
grounding. If you install a surge suppressor this will a vital part of the
system
Cheers.

Joe

Have you ever noticed in FL that right after major surge "problems" seem to
damage all kinds of items in your home . . . next thing you know within a
few days you are getting a mailing from FPL offering to sell you their
"surge protection" insurance?

It's just an oddity that every time we have those problems around here,
those mailers show up. But, I'm sure it has nothing to do with the power
monopoly.


"Dorot29701" wrote in message
...
We had to replace several small things like DVDs and VCRs after one
particular
very brief (like momentary) power outage and the subsequent surge. I am
in FL
where this happens often. Now all my small stuff and computers are on
surge
suppressers. I checked with power company and they recommend whole house
surge
suppressers and they will install - but the costs is very high.

One of my neighbors is an electrician for county and he said he has a
whole
house ss but had someone (private co) install it and it was cheaper.

It is a neighborhood problem around here.

Dorothy

Cheryl wrote in message ...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

How frequent are the surges? 1 per day or much more than that? Do
the surges always come on at the same time, or at "rounded" times such
as 9:00 PM, 10:30 PM, 11:45PM?

I had a friend who back in 1993 was running a small ISP from his
basement. He said that every night at exactly 10:15 PM there was a
power surge or sag or something that would screw up a couple of his
modems, which he then had to reset. They had called the utility
company who explained to them that at this specific time they did
something to the power supply (can't remember what, but something like
reduce the power generation of one of their power plants) for the
night because the overall demand for power would always drop after
10:00 PM. Why was this only affecting him (i.e. why wasn't everybody
with a modem at home getting screwed up?) I'm not sure, but perhaps
because he was using up a lot more power than the average person
(regular appliances + 4 servers, 4 monitors, 60 modems) that his house
was more "sensitive" to fluctuations in power.

In article ,
(Cheryl) says...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

What you describe is caused by a bad neutral circuit. It is probably
the power company's fault, though if your aluminum lead-in wire was not
installed properly the fault may be yours. It is a VERY dangerous
condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so
every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage.

If you are not able to troubleshoot this yourself, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN
IMMEDIATELY! I would also be smoking the power company's lines about
the stupid pencil pusher who couldn't tell there was a dangerous
condition at your location. They should have had a crew on your
doorstep within 2 hours.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

--
Cheryl

If it is everything then there a plethora of places to start. Neighbors
would be first in my list. Especially if they are on the same transformer or
line. Not if they are on a different transformer or line.
Next would be to check all of the connections in the panel. Not a good place
to play unless your comfortable working around an invisible servant that
wants to kill you.
Some humor.
It would be handy if you had a voltage meter that had a scale that you could
measure the voltage. Can you borrow one. Needs to have a zero to 300 VAC
scale. Radio Shack has some that are less than 100 bucks.

If it persists then try the utility. Now your heading into a mess. There
are standards that they must provide. It is plus 10% to minus 7% of
nominal. That means that the average plug could read any thing from 132 to
111.6 volts. The sad part of IEEE 519 is the next paragraph says except for
short periods of time. No definition on this one.
Is a day a short period of time compared to a year, you bet.

If you do not want to borrow or buy a meter then it is probably time to call
someone to come over and check it out. Plan on the problem going away when
they arrive. It usually does, my experience anyway.
This might need a recording meter left on the service for at least 24 hours,
I would want a weeks worth of data.

Larry Caldwell wrote:

condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so
every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage.

Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires
can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am
missing here?

In article ,
(Valid User) says...
Larry Caldwell wrote:

condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so
every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage.

Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires
can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am
missing here?

Yes, the ground can be energized. A code ground has to be less than 25
ohms to ground. In dry weather, you can connect a 20 amp breaker
directly to a ground wire and the breaker won't pop. The circuit
depends on the neutral back to the transformer, and if that goes bad,
the ground circuit can get very hot indeed.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Larry Caldwell wrote:
In article ,
(Valid User) says...

Larry Caldwell wrote:


condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so
every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage.

Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires
can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am
missing here?


Yes, the ground can be energized. A code ground has to be less than 25
ohms to ground. In dry weather, you can connect a 20 amp breaker
directly to a ground wire and the breaker won't pop. The circuit
depends on the neutral back to the transformer, and if that goes bad,
the ground circuit can get very hot indeed.


So suppose your outlet boxes and cover plates are metal, and there is
loose neutral connection leading upto the outlet. Then it would be
dangerous to touch the cover plate, when that outlet, or some
down the circuit, is plugged in?

I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC literate
enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a surge protector is a
must have on her PC setup. We all have them somewhere.

Why not do this.

I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power supplies (UPS)
that have power monitors in them and will even 'smooth out' the levels
automatically. In other words maintain a constant 115V when the line varies
the +- 7 % it usually does. Well, I am not recommending this as a long term
solution BUT they also have serial outputs a logging of events with
configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is and record
every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This one may do this
http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. Worthwhile
even w/o the issues she is having.

Just a thought.

-B




"SQLit" wrote in message
news:IxJvc.15664$lL1.5851@fed1read03...

"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

--
Cheryl

If it is everything then there a plethora of places to start. Neighbors
would be first in my list. Especially if they are on the same transformer
or
line. Not if they are on a different transformer or line.
Next would be to check all of the connections in the panel. Not a good
place
to play unless your comfortable working around an invisible servant that
wants to kill you.
Some humor.
It would be handy if you had a voltage meter that had a scale that you
could
measure the voltage. Can you borrow one. Needs to have a zero to 300 VAC
scale. Radio Shack has some that are less than 100 bucks.

If it persists then try the utility. Now your heading into a mess. There
are standards that they must provide. It is plus 10% to minus 7% of
nominal. That means that the average plug could read any thing from 132 to
111.6 volts. The sad part of IEEE 519 is the next paragraph says except
for
short periods of time. No definition on this one.
Is a day a short period of time compared to a year, you bet.

If you do not want to borrow or buy a meter then it is probably time to
call
someone to come over and check it out. Plan on the problem going away when
they arrive. It usually does, my experience anyway.
This might need a recording meter left on the service for at least 24
hours,
I would want a weeks worth of data.

In article ,
(Valid User) says...

So suppose your outlet boxes and cover plates are metal, and there is
loose neutral connection leading upto the outlet. Then it would be
dangerous to touch the cover plate, when that outlet, or some
down the circuit, is plugged in?

No, but if there is a bad neutral connection between the main panel and
the transformer, ALL neutrals and grounds in the house can have a
dangerous voltage on them. This is how over-voltage conditions can
exist. When there is an unbalanced load and a bad neutral, the neutral
carries a voltage that is out of phase with the more lightly loaded leg.
Lights will burn brighter, motors will run faster, equipment will burn
out, and people will get electrocuted.

While installing a hot tub on a branch circuit, I discovered 2 volts
between the neutral and the ground at the hot tub. It was popping the
GFI breaker. I called the power company, and they had a crew out to re-
do all the connections between the transformer and my meter base *that
day*. They identified a corroded connection at the weather head as the
problem.

My parents' old farm house had the bright light and faster motor problem
a few years ago. That was identified as a poorly installed connection
in the meter base - aluminum wire and no anti-oxidant caused the neutral
to corrode away.

In a single outlet, a loose neutral connection may cause intermittent
behavior, or even overheating, but it will not energize the outlet
cover.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

If the ground wire can be energized, then why it is bare? Will it
generate a current through you if you touch it?

Sorry for the novice question. But how the electricity know it will
go through the netral first, and use the ground only when the netral
is bad? Why not use ground first?

Most of your responses are nothing more than speculation.
None mention the most typical reason for that problem. A
weakened neutral wire is the most typical reason. Easiest to
detect with a 3.5 digit multimeter (as sold in Home Depot,
Radio Shack and Sears even for $20). The house is powered
from two incoming wires (that share a common neutral). Some
appliances and lights powered by one wire will see a voltage
increase while others will suffer a voltage decrease. This is
especially destructive to incandescent bulbs that glow much
brighter but fail quickly.

Problem is not a surge. Surge protectors will remain inert;
will ignore a voltage change. Protectors see nothing and do
nothing until the 120 VAC increases above 300 volts which is
not what is happening. Your 120 VAC may be rising to an
unacceptable 130 volts (destructive to incandescent lights) or
dropping to 110 volts (causes lights to significantly dim).

Simplest fact is by measuring voltage with that multimeter
as heavy (120 VAC) appliances on other circuits are power
cycled. If those other circuits cause a voltage change on
this circuit, then you may have a neutral wire problem.
Electrician is required.

Fixing a neutral costs almost nothing in labor and massive
money in electrician's traveling time. So here is what you
do. Make his visit worth while. First, have him upgrade or
inspect your household earth ground system so that
transistorized appliances also have protection. IOW the
building's earth ground system must be upgraded or enhanced
beyond post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. Most
homes do not meet this requirement. Too many no longer even
have the inferior earth ground that was originally installed.
No earth ground is a threat to both human life and to
transistors.

Also have all incoming utilities earthed to this upgraded
ground as required by code. Furthermore have a 'whole house'
protector installed by that electrician. Home Depot sells one
minimally acceptable protector for less than $50 - Intermatic
IG1240RC. You could have the utility install one at inflated
prices equivalent to the overpriced (and ineffective) plug-in
protectors. Or have the electrician do it right for much less
money and superior protection. IOW here is your opportunity
to also get transistorized appliances protected since the
electrician is already there and inside your breaker box.

If your problem is not a broken neutral, then it is more
complex which means the electrician is required anyway.

Another reason why you want that earth ground upgraded or
inspected. During a failed neutral wire, then earth ground
may be protecting the house from explosion. It is a rare
occurrence but has happened. Gas meter exploded when neutral
wire failed because electricity used the gas line to connect
back to AC electric transformer outside on pole. Yes, that
earth ground is also necessary for human safety which is why
it, as well as neutral wire, should be inspected.

No reason to do most of what others have posted. First an
inexpensive multimeter will immediately put numbers to the
problem. Numbers from meter will later prove that a potential
threat to human life has been solved. Second, those meter
readings will direct the electrician immediately to the
problem since you have made the problem reproducible. Third,
if you have a neutral wire problem, then you may also have the
earthing problem - either due to new code requirements or due
to an earthing ground failure. Either way, only the
electrician will, with certainty, identify and upgrade that
all so important earth ground.

Cheryl wrote:
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor"
artfully composed this message within
on 02 Jun 2004:
it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors.
take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and
find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to
you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your
wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and
the line coming into the house.

Thank you. I'll do this!

--
Cheryl

An informed computer user knows that anything effective at a
computer is already inside the computer. But that internal PC
protection can be overwhelmed IF the incoming transient is not
earthed before entering a building. Effective protection is
about earthing.

PCs have internal protection that assumes a building has a
properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Protectors are not
protection. Protectors are only effective when connected
'less than 10 fee' to protection - earth ground. Earthing is
why household electric must be upgraded or exceed post 1990
National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements.

So what does that adjacent protector do? It can even
contribute to damage of an adjacent computer when that
computer is powered off. Again, this is about first learning
what that protector actually does. Many who recommend plug-in
protectors don't even have a clue as to what it does. They
actually think it stops, blocks, or absorbs a destructive
transient. 3 miles of non-conductive air could not stop that
transient. Is a silly little plug-in protector going to do
what three miles of air could not? Of course not. Myths
promote plug-in protectors.

Effective protection is about earthing. So what does the
plug-in protector avoid mentioning to sell their overpriced
and ineffective product? Earthing. No discussion about
earthing means others will recommend the plug-in protector
only on 'word association'. If it is a protector, then it
must be protection? Wrong. Protector and protection are two
different components of a protection 'system'. So that myth
purveyors don't know this, the plug-in protector manufacturer
must avoid all mention of earthing. No earth ground means no
effective protection. The manufacturer forgets to mention
that part because plug-in protectors with grossly insufficient
joules are so profitable. Profitable especially when so often
recommended by myths.

Any protection effective at the computer is already inside
that computer. The plug-in protector is promoted by myths -
as demonstrated by no mention of the most critical component -
earth ground.

Brikp wrote:
I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC
literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a
surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them
somewhere.

Why not do this.

I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power
supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even
'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a
constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does.
Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT
they also have serial outputs a logging of events with
configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is
and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This
one may do this
http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having.

Just a thought.

In order for electricity to pass through you, first, there
must be an incoming and outgoing path where a voltage
difference exists between those incoming and outgoing paths.
Watch a bird sit on a high voltage wire. He has an incoming
path - his feet. Where is the outgoing path? No outgoing
path is why the bird is not electrocuted. Same applies to you
touching a ground wire. As long as that energized ground wire
and earth ground beneath your feet are same voltage, then
there is no outgoing electrical path.

Fundamental to electricity. First electricity must flow
through everything in the complete circuit. Only after that
complete circuit exists - electricity flowing through
everything in that circuit - do we then have damage. No
outgoing path means no complete circuit - no damage and no
danger.

Valid User wrote:
If the ground wire can be energized, then why it is bare? Will it
generate a current through you if you touch it?

Sorry for the novice question. But how the electricity know it will
go through the netral first, and use the ground only when the netral
is bad? Why not use ground first?

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski"
artfully composed this message within
.net on 03 Jun
2004:

Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home?

15 years.

Is the
electrical service underground or overhead?

It may be a combination. Our whole neighborhood was knocked out
(downed power lines) after Hurricane Isobel and the overhead lines
and poles had to be replaced. But, a neighbor who has the same
problem (I just found out!) said the power company told them in
this neighborhood the power supplying homes is underground.

Can you correlate
the flickering lights with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere
in your area?

Nope. Nothing weird going on outdoors at all when this happens.
Though it does happen when there are storms, as well.

Do any of your neighbors have the same
experiences?

At least one does as I just found out. I'll ask around this
weekend.

What sort of major electric appliances do you have
(Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)?

All electric home; no gas supply lines in the neighborhood, so all
of the major appliances are electric. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Do you have an
emergency generator connected to your home?

No, but I sure would like one.

Did you make any
changes to your home or install anything prior to the beginning
of the flickering problem?

No. New heat pump installed 3 years ago, but the timing doesn't
draw a parallel.

Do you have a battery back up system
for your home computer? Do you have a large copy machine or
printer that is left on most of the time?

I use a laptop, and I go to battery power when it acts up like it
did last night. Copier/printer only on when I need to use it with
an old desktop as a print server. They are on a surge suppressor.

How close is your home
to the power company's nearest substation? Has there been any
major construction in your area recently such as the opening of
a new office building, shopping center, or housing development?

I don't know about the substation; construction, YES, always in
this area. New homes are going up all the time. HUGE homes. Nearest
new developments are about a mile away in two separate directions.

The power company has instruments that can monitor the power
coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set
something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an
electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your
service. That might provide you with tangible evidence as to
the cause.

Thank you John. The new knowledge of at least one neighbor having
the same problem brought up something discouraging. They had
contacted the power company a while back (I forgot to ask how long
ago) and were told that the underground wires probably needed
replacing and they would wait until they "went". No good. I could
have a fire or lose major appliances in the meantime. I'm going to
follow up. But how? Have an electrician do what you wrote above and
present that to the power company? First, I will call them myself
and get them to come out and see what they say after a new
complaint. When I first bought this house almost 4 years ago, the
power used to go out with almost every storm. I can recall the
flickering occurring before Isobel, but the power doesn't go out at
the drop of a hat since they replaced the overheads. But, the
flickering has gotten worse.

John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



--
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", osspam
(Joe Bobst) artfully composed this message within
on 03 Jun
2004:

There were problems at my house some time ago. Power company
hooked up a recording voltmeter to the line and confirmed
voltage spikes. After a lot of activity at the local substation,
the problem was resolved, apparently a near to failure step down
transformer. In resolving your situation, be sure to consider
the possibility of inadequate grounding. If you install a surge
suppressor this will a vital part of the system

Yeesh. Sounds like a major expense from some of the other replies.
But it sure beats a fire! Thanks for the input.

--
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", Larry Caldwell
artfully composed this message within
nk.net on 03
Jun 2004:

What you describe is caused by a bad neutral circuit. It is
probably the power company's fault, though if your aluminum
lead-in wire was not installed properly the fault may be yours.
It is a VERY dangerous condition. The neutral is bonded to the
ground in your breaker box, so every ground circuit in your
house may be carrying a lethal voltage.

If you are not able to troubleshoot this yourself, CALL AN
ELECTRICIAN IMMEDIATELY! I would also be smoking the power
company's lines about the stupid pencil pusher who couldn't tell
there was a dangerous condition at your location. They should
have had a crew on your doorstep within 2 hours.

Ok, you're scaring me so point received! I've checked the circuit
breaker box and don't smell anything, it isn't hot, not even warm.
The problem is that I can only tell this is happening when it is
dark, because other than the refrigerator, I don't notice anything
with other appliances. Mostly just the lights. I won't let this go,
and I'll call the power company. I've never had any circuit
breakers pop at all, but an air purifier has blown internal fuses
(1 amp IIRC) at times, but that was before I moved the humidifier
(which I only run in the summer). The air conditioner wasn't even
on last night.

--
Cheryl

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "Brikp"
artfully composed this message within
on 03 Jun 2004:

I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC
literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a
surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them
somewhere.

Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I
could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING!

Why not do this.

I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power
supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even
'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a
constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does.
Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT
they also have serial outputs a logging of events with
configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is
and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This
one may do this
http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70.
Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having.

Just a thought.


Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an
electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that
this isn't something to ignore. Thank you!


--
Cheryl

"Lost-In-Translation"
wrote in message
link.net...
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our
area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges
that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!!
Sure, it made for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines
as those quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be
laying across wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.
...
Umm, I dunno where you got your info Lost, but first of all,
that's now what "meter jumping" is, the power companies will
not "surge" the line to burn off anything, let alone
branches, and lastly surges, by definition cannot make the
meters spin as you say and they do not add to the power
bills. You've been listen ing to someone who's probably
laughing at the people who believe that stuff.

On another vein, it is indeed possible to momentarily
increase the voltage on one phase of the wiring coming into
the house. But, that said, I'm not going into specifics
because it isn't necessary for the OP and I doubt you would
understand.
The OP may have a wiring problem, it could be inside the
house, and that's the place to start unless something points
to outdoors or a faulty outdoor transformer (not likely;
they don't fail that way). A good insptector will be able
to tell quickly, probably by observation, actually, whether
it's an in or out side problem and the magn itude of the
problem.

Please don't spread misinformation.

Pop

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", w_tom
artfully composed this message within news:40BF8FE7.FA86D232
@hotmail.com on 03 Jun 2004:

Most of your responses are nothing more than speculation.
None mention the most typical reason for that problem. A
weakened neutral wire is the most typical reason. Easiest to
detect with a 3.5 digit multimeter (as sold in Home Depot,
Radio Shack and Sears even for $20). The house is powered
from two incoming wires (that share a common neutral). Some
appliances and lights powered by one wire will see a voltage
increase while others will suffer a voltage decrease. This is
especially destructive to incandescent bulbs that glow much
brighter but fail quickly.

snip

You've given me a lot to read and I appreciate everyones input. I
tend to agree that an electrician is needed; first I'm going to
contact the power company with the new information that I'm not the
only one experiencing this. It does sound like what you say, in
fact, the one neighbor with the same problem owns a house built by
the same builder so problems could be identical, and inside. I
certainly will feel safer to have an inspection done on the inside
since the power company might not be able to confirm or deny a
problem in their equipment soon enough for me. Thanks!



--
Cheryl

"Dorot29701" wrote in message
...
We had to replace several small things like DVDs and VCRs
after one particular
very brief (like momentary) power outage and the
subsequent surge. I am in FL
where this happens often. Now all my small stuff and
computers are on surge
suppressers. I checked with power company and they
recommend whole house surge
suppressers and they will install - but the costs is very
high.

One of my neighbors is an electrician for county and he
said he has a whole
house ss but had someone (private co) install it and it
was cheaper.

It is a neighborhood problem around here.

Dorothy

True, it can really be a problem, esp in the lightning areas
like FL. Whole house protection is good, but, and this is
opinion, so you'll find many different opinions on this,
even with whole house protection, OR instead of, which is
how I think, it is still necessary to have specific
protection on sensitive electronic components such as
computers, computerized sewing machines, etc. In general,
if you can afford the whole house protection, then all you
need is the cheapie suppressors, like Walmart etc. sell, at
each device. If you don't have whole house protection,
however, then you should have something much more reliable
and capable of taking a strong hit. There isn't much of
anything that will save you from a direct lightning hit to
power lines outside your home, but that isn't a very usual
occurrence.
It's hard to describe how "good" a protector should be,
but in general, one wants a 3-way protection, and the higher
the number of "joules" the suppressor can handle, the better
the protection. Some of the good ones even offer equipment
replacement if their products fail to protect you, but ...
like I said, nothing is going to protect against a direct
lightning hit.
Google for "surge protection" +computer (use the quotes)
and you can get lots of info on it and some are good for the
layman to read and figure out how they work.

Pop

"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
news:aXAvc.654139$oR5.337401@pd7tw3no...
George E. Cawthon wrote:

Dan Hartung wrote:

Lost-In-Translation wrote:
....
Hi,
I am just smiling. Over the years(~30 years or so) I have
seen many sags
but surge? Very seldom. I used to monitor power line a lot
with monitor.
Tony

I don't think they mean surge in that way. It would appear
that "surge", for these folk, means any voltage outside
operating range, wether it's lightning, crossed wires, power
bounces when a line goes down, switching grids, etc.. Not
too unusual, really.

"Lost-In-Translation"
wrote in message
ink.net...
"Dan Hartung" wrote in message
...
Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in
our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power
surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few
seconds!! Sure, it made
for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the
lines as those
quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be
laying across
wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will
stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch.
A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

I really wish it were, but in South Florida, where FPL has
a monopolistic
choke hold on millions of customers - it's exactly what
they do and they
admitted it on a local news story as a "necessary
maintenance proceedure"
and that the "average" customer would only experience
"pennies" added to
their power bills to accomplish this. They just didn't
say how many
"pennies" over time, 5? 10? 100? 1,000,000,000? Who
knows.

I've actually seen branches laying across utility lines in
my neighborhood
area, many lay they for a very long time then, for some
reason, they start
to burn and break off.


I challenge you to back that up with anything credible,
concerning the "surging" to burn stuff off the lines.

Second, you're purely guessing, IFF you really saw it, about
the reason/s for branches starting to burn. Personally, I
doubt you have seen that. Sorry. You'd eventually flash
into flame too with that much amperage available to you.
Pop

Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the
power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried
directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for
direct burial it must be installed under optimum conditions for good quality
life. By optimum conditions I mean that the insulation on the wire must be
free of nicks and cuts and the dirt must be free of rocks and other sharp
objects. Installation crews rarely make the extra effort to ensure a quality
installation as time is money. When aluminum wire gets a little wet and
electricity begins to flow to earth, the wire disintegrates over time.

I had a customer call me last week and complained that half of her house was
without power. I checked and found that one leg of her underground service
was dead. I called the power company for her. They responded a few hours
after I left, but I found out the next day that they tested that dead leg
and found it to be bad. They will now be digging up her lawn to replace it
at no cost to her. Her house was built in 1986.

In your case you may have a defective neutral conductor or bad neutral
connection which, as some other posters have noted, can be hazardous to life
and equipment. Your grounding conductor at your water pipe and/or ground
rod should be looked at also.

I suggest that you call an electrician, let him investigate, and ask him to
call the power company if he feels it is their problem. I have found that
the power companies respond better to qualified individuals and sometimes
dismiss the homeowners complaints until they are very serious.

Something that you can safely try on your own is to shut off all of your
2-pole circuit breakers in your electrical panel, but leave the single pole
breakers on. You should unplug your electronic appliances (TV, VCR,
cordless telephone, computer ...) before doing this. If nothing works in the
house, or if the lights are dim, that could indicate a bad neutral and
grounding conductor.

I would be interested in hearing what the actual problem is after everyone
checks it out.


John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



"Cheryl" wrote in message
...
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski"
artfully composed this message within
.net on 03 Jun
2004:

Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home?

15 years.

Is the
electrical service underground or overhead?

It may be a combination. Our whole neighborhood was knocked out
(downed power lines) after Hurricane Isobel and the overhead lines
and poles had to be replaced. But, a neighbor who has the same
problem (I just found out!) said the power company told them in
this neighborhood the power supplying homes is underground.

Can you correlate
the flickering lights with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere
in your area?

Nope. Nothing weird going on outdoors at all when this happens.
Though it does happen when there are storms, as well.

Do any of your neighbors have the same
experiences?

At least one does as I just found out. I'll ask around this
weekend.

What sort of major electric appliances do you have
(Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)?

All electric home; no gas supply lines in the neighborhood, so all
of the major appliances are electric. Nothing out of the ordinary.

Do you have an
emergency generator connected to your home?

No, but I sure would like one.

Did you make any
changes to your home or install anything prior to the beginning
of the flickering problem?

No. New heat pump installed 3 years ago, but the timing doesn't
draw a parallel.

Do you have a battery back up system
for your home computer? Do you have a large copy machine or
printer that is left on most of the time?

I use a laptop, and I go to battery power when it acts up like it
did last night. Copier/printer only on when I need to use it with
an old desktop as a print server. They are on a surge suppressor.

How close is your home
to the power company's nearest substation? Has there been any
major construction in your area recently such as the opening of
a new office building, shopping center, or housing development?

I don't know about the substation; construction, YES, always in
this area. New homes are going up all the time. HUGE homes. Nearest
new developments are about a mile away in two separate directions.

The power company has instruments that can monitor the power
coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set
something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an
electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your
service. That might provide you with tangible evidence as to
the cause.

Thank you John. The new knowledge of at least one neighbor having
the same problem brought up something discouraging. They had
contacted the power company a while back (I forgot to ask how long
ago) and were told that the underground wires probably needed
replacing and they would wait until they "went". No good. I could
have a fire or lose major appliances in the meantime. I'm going to
follow up. But how? Have an electrician do what you wrote above and
present that to the power company? First, I will call them myself
and get them to come out and see what they say after a new
complaint. When I first bought this house almost 4 years ago, the
power used to go out with almost every storm. I can recall the
flickering occurring before Isobel, but the power doesn't go out at
the drop of a hat since they replaced the overheads. But, the
flickering has gotten worse.

John Grabowski
http://www.mrelectrician.tv



--
Cheryl