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Power surges
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. -- Cheryl |
#2
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Power surges
Cheryl wrote:
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. I have no difinitive answers, and am not an electrician by any means, however many years back I had an experience that also made no sense like getting power to circuits that were clearly turned off. The problem in our case was a new concrete footing settled onto the power line coming into the house and caused a short between the different phases of the line. So turning on a switch on one circuit caused appliances in another circuit to turn on! Another possibility is that your appliances are actually continually running at low power and the "surges" you are experiencing are actually the appliances returning to normal. As for how to decide if you want the power company to comeout or an electrician, check your neighbors and see if they are having the same problem. If they are all having the same problem, have the power company come out. If it is just your house (and there is no obvious damage to the wiring just outside your house) and electrician is probably the right answer. RBV |
#3
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", RBV
artfully composed this message within news:HFvvc.4112$eP.786@lakeread01 on 02 Jun 2004: Thank you. I'll check with the neighbors as you suggest. Yours sounds like a strange problem! Glad you got it worked out. If I may ask, who ended up being at "fault" for that and had to pay? I can sort of see it going either way, unless the wiring wasn't marked properly when the new footing was put in, or something. Even then... hhmmm... Another possibility is that your appliances are actually continually running at low power and the "surges" you are experiencing are actually the appliances returning to normal. Ya know, I thought this a few times. If this is the case, I like it better when the "surge" occurs. My kitchen has better lighting during those. Tonight is really bad which is prompting my query. It doesn't happen like this often which could possibly make it harder to diagnose? Tonight is making me want to turn off all electrical appliances. -- Cheryl /on battery powered laptop |
#4
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Power surges
Cheryl wrote:
.... If I may ask, who ended up being at "fault" for that and had to pay? I can sort of see it going either way, unless the wiring wasn't marked properly when the new footing was put in, or something. Even then... hhmmm... I think the power company said something like "The footing should not have been put here... " but paid for a new line anyway. RBV |
#5
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Power surges
"Cheryl" wrote in message
... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. this isnt entirely true. although the types of things that need to happen to cause this situation are rare, they do exist. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors. take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and the line coming into the house. randy |
#6
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor"
artfully composed this message within on 02 Jun 2004: it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors. take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and the line coming into the house. Thank you. I'll do this! -- Cheryl |
#7
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Power surges
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for some higher power bills too. Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires. It's a dirty trick, but they do it. "Cheryl" wrote in message news In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor" artfully composed this message within on 02 Jun 2004: it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors. take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and the line coming into the house. Thank you. I'll do this! -- Cheryl |
#8
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Power surges
Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for some higher power bills too. Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires. It's a dirty trick, but they do it. Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched power line is more dangerous. |
#9
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Power surges
Dan Hartung wrote: Lost-In-Translation wrote: Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for some higher power bills too. Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires. It's a dirty trick, but they do it. Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched power line is more dangerous. I don't think it is a legend, that means several people believe it and nobody that knows anything about utilities would believe this. Any power company that did this would quickly go out of business from lawsuits. |
#10
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Power surges
"Dan Hartung" wrote in message
... Lost-In-Translation wrote: Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for some higher power bills too. Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires. It's a dirty trick, but they do it. Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will stress the line itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch. A stretched power line is more dangerous. I really wish it were, but in South Florida, where FPL has a monopolistic choke hold on millions of customers - it's exactly what they do and they admitted it on a local news story as a "necessary maintenance proceedure" and that the "average" customer would only experience "pennies" added to their power bills to accomplish this. They just didn't say how many "pennies" over time, 5? 10? 100? 1,000,000,000? Who knows. I've actually seen branches laying across utility lines in my neighborhood area, many lay they for a very long time then, for some reason, they start to burn and break off. |
#11
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Power surges
"Lost-In-Translation" wrote in message link.net... Don't discount the power company either. We found, in our area, that we were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power surges that made the meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few seconds!! Sure, it made for some higher power bills too. Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the lines as those quick surges will help burn off small branches that may be laying across wires. It's a dirty trick, but they do it. ... Umm, I dunno where you got your info Lost, but first of all, that's now what "meter jumping" is, the power companies will not "surge" the line to burn off anything, let alone branches, and lastly surges, by definition cannot make the meters spin as you say and they do not add to the power bills. You've been listen ing to someone who's probably laughing at the people who believe that stuff. On another vein, it is indeed possible to momentarily increase the voltage on one phase of the wiring coming into the house. But, that said, I'm not going into specifics because it isn't necessary for the OP and I doubt you would understand. The OP may have a wiring problem, it could be inside the house, and that's the place to start unless something points to outdoors or a faulty outdoor transformer (not likely; they don't fail that way). A good insptector will be able to tell quickly, probably by observation, actually, whether it's an in or out side problem and the magn itude of the problem. Please don't spread misinformation. Pop |
#12
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Power surges
Most of your responses are nothing more than speculation.
None mention the most typical reason for that problem. A weakened neutral wire is the most typical reason. Easiest to detect with a 3.5 digit multimeter (as sold in Home Depot, Radio Shack and Sears even for $20). The house is powered from two incoming wires (that share a common neutral). Some appliances and lights powered by one wire will see a voltage increase while others will suffer a voltage decrease. This is especially destructive to incandescent bulbs that glow much brighter but fail quickly. Problem is not a surge. Surge protectors will remain inert; will ignore a voltage change. Protectors see nothing and do nothing until the 120 VAC increases above 300 volts which is not what is happening. Your 120 VAC may be rising to an unacceptable 130 volts (destructive to incandescent lights) or dropping to 110 volts (causes lights to significantly dim). Simplest fact is by measuring voltage with that multimeter as heavy (120 VAC) appliances on other circuits are power cycled. If those other circuits cause a voltage change on this circuit, then you may have a neutral wire problem. Electrician is required. Fixing a neutral costs almost nothing in labor and massive money in electrician's traveling time. So here is what you do. Make his visit worth while. First, have him upgrade or inspect your household earth ground system so that transistorized appliances also have protection. IOW the building's earth ground system must be upgraded or enhanced beyond post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements. Most homes do not meet this requirement. Too many no longer even have the inferior earth ground that was originally installed. No earth ground is a threat to both human life and to transistors. Also have all incoming utilities earthed to this upgraded ground as required by code. Furthermore have a 'whole house' protector installed by that electrician. Home Depot sells one minimally acceptable protector for less than $50 - Intermatic IG1240RC. You could have the utility install one at inflated prices equivalent to the overpriced (and ineffective) plug-in protectors. Or have the electrician do it right for much less money and superior protection. IOW here is your opportunity to also get transistorized appliances protected since the electrician is already there and inside your breaker box. If your problem is not a broken neutral, then it is more complex which means the electrician is required anyway. Another reason why you want that earth ground upgraded or inspected. During a failed neutral wire, then earth ground may be protecting the house from explosion. It is a rare occurrence but has happened. Gas meter exploded when neutral wire failed because electricity used the gas line to connect back to AC electric transformer outside on pole. Yes, that earth ground is also necessary for human safety which is why it, as well as neutral wire, should be inspected. No reason to do most of what others have posted. First an inexpensive multimeter will immediately put numbers to the problem. Numbers from meter will later prove that a potential threat to human life has been solved. Second, those meter readings will direct the electrician immediately to the problem since you have made the problem reproducible. Third, if you have a neutral wire problem, then you may also have the earthing problem - either due to new code requirements or due to an earthing ground failure. Either way, only the electrician will, with certainty, identify and upgrade that all so important earth ground. Cheryl wrote: In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "xrongor" artfully composed this message within on 02 Jun 2004: it seems to me the first thing to do is talk with the neighbors. take a look at the wire where it connects up on the pole and find the people connected to the same line as you, as close to you as possible. if you're the only one, its probably your wiring. probably somewhere between the panel in the house and the line coming into the house. Thank you. I'll do this! -- Cheryl |
#13
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", w_tom
artfully composed this message within news:40BF8FE7.FA86D232 @hotmail.com on 03 Jun 2004: Most of your responses are nothing more than speculation. None mention the most typical reason for that problem. A weakened neutral wire is the most typical reason. Easiest to detect with a 3.5 digit multimeter (as sold in Home Depot, Radio Shack and Sears even for $20). The house is powered from two incoming wires (that share a common neutral). Some appliances and lights powered by one wire will see a voltage increase while others will suffer a voltage decrease. This is especially destructive to incandescent bulbs that glow much brighter but fail quickly. snip You've given me a lot to read and I appreciate everyones input. I tend to agree that an electrician is needed; first I'm going to contact the power company with the new information that I'm not the only one experiencing this. It does sound like what you say, in fact, the one neighbor with the same problem owns a house built by the same builder so problems could be identical, and inside. I certainly will feel safer to have an inspection done on the inside since the power company might not be able to confirm or deny a problem in their equipment soon enough for me. Thanks! -- Cheryl |
#14
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Power surges
"Cheryl" wrote in message ... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. You probably have a bad connection somewhere, most likely at the mains breaker panel..... Feel the breaker switches for heat, could be one of the breakers is going bad and will melt down pretty soon .... Have someone who knows what they are doing come look at it, poke around, jiggle wires and that sort of thing--a liscensed electrician would be a good person to do this.... There will likely be some heat and probably a discolored terminal from that heat wherever the problem is at. Oh, and dont mess around waiting, the condition is dangerous as it is, and certainly isnt gonna improve with time. -- SVL |
#15
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Power surges
PrecisionMachinisT wrote:
"Cheryl" wrote in message ... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. You probably have a bad connection somewhere, most likely at the mains breaker panel..... Feel the breaker switches for heat, could be one of the breakers is going bad and will melt down pretty soon .... Have someone who knows what they are doing come look at it, poke around, jiggle wires and that sort of thing--a liscensed electrician would be a good person to do this.... There will likely be some heat and probably a discolored terminal from that heat wherever the problem is at. Oh, and dont mess around waiting, the condition is dangerous as it is, and certainly isnt gonna improve with time. Hi, May smell too around where the trouble is if there is one. Tony |
#16
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Power surges
Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home? Is the electrical
service underground or overhead? Can you correlate the flickering lights with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere in your area? Do any of your neighbors have the same experiences? What sort of major electric appliances do you have (Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)? Do you have an emergency generator connected to your home? Did you make any changes to your home or install anything prior to the beginning of the flickering problem? Do you have a battery back up system for your home computer? Do you have a large copy machine or printer that is left on most of the time? How close is your home to the power company's nearest substation? Has there been any major construction in your area recently such as the opening of a new office building, shopping center, or housing development? The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your service. That might provide you with tangible evidence as to the cause. John Grabowski http://www.mrelectrician.tv "Cheryl" wrote in message ... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. -- Cheryl |
#17
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Power surges
John Grabowski comes up with the most sensible solution:
The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your service. There were problems at my house some time ago. Power company hooked up a recording voltmeter to the line and confirmed voltage spikes. After a lot of activity at the local substation, the problem was resolved, apparently a near to failure step down transformer. In resolving your situation, be sure to consider the possibility of inadequate grounding. If you install a surge suppressor this will a vital part of the system Cheers. Joe |
#18
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Power surges
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#19
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski"
artfully composed this message within .net on 03 Jun 2004: Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home? 15 years. Is the electrical service underground or overhead? It may be a combination. Our whole neighborhood was knocked out (downed power lines) after Hurricane Isobel and the overhead lines and poles had to be replaced. But, a neighbor who has the same problem (I just found out!) said the power company told them in this neighborhood the power supplying homes is underground. Can you correlate the flickering lights with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere in your area? Nope. Nothing weird going on outdoors at all when this happens. Though it does happen when there are storms, as well. Do any of your neighbors have the same experiences? At least one does as I just found out. I'll ask around this weekend. What sort of major electric appliances do you have (Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)? All electric home; no gas supply lines in the neighborhood, so all of the major appliances are electric. Nothing out of the ordinary. Do you have an emergency generator connected to your home? No, but I sure would like one. Did you make any changes to your home or install anything prior to the beginning of the flickering problem? No. New heat pump installed 3 years ago, but the timing doesn't draw a parallel. Do you have a battery back up system for your home computer? Do you have a large copy machine or printer that is left on most of the time? I use a laptop, and I go to battery power when it acts up like it did last night. Copier/printer only on when I need to use it with an old desktop as a print server. They are on a surge suppressor. How close is your home to the power company's nearest substation? Has there been any major construction in your area recently such as the opening of a new office building, shopping center, or housing development? I don't know about the substation; construction, YES, always in this area. New homes are going up all the time. HUGE homes. Nearest new developments are about a mile away in two separate directions. The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your service. That might provide you with tangible evidence as to the cause. Thank you John. The new knowledge of at least one neighbor having the same problem brought up something discouraging. They had contacted the power company a while back (I forgot to ask how long ago) and were told that the underground wires probably needed replacing and they would wait until they "went". No good. I could have a fire or lose major appliances in the meantime. I'm going to follow up. But how? Have an electrician do what you wrote above and present that to the power company? First, I will call them myself and get them to come out and see what they say after a new complaint. When I first bought this house almost 4 years ago, the power used to go out with almost every storm. I can recall the flickering occurring before Isobel, but the power doesn't go out at the drop of a hat since they replaced the overheads. But, the flickering has gotten worse. John Grabowski http://www.mrelectrician.tv -- Cheryl |
#20
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Power surges
Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the
power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for direct burial it must be installed under optimum conditions for good quality life. By optimum conditions I mean that the insulation on the wire must be free of nicks and cuts and the dirt must be free of rocks and other sharp objects. Installation crews rarely make the extra effort to ensure a quality installation as time is money. When aluminum wire gets a little wet and electricity begins to flow to earth, the wire disintegrates over time. I had a customer call me last week and complained that half of her house was without power. I checked and found that one leg of her underground service was dead. I called the power company for her. They responded a few hours after I left, but I found out the next day that they tested that dead leg and found it to be bad. They will now be digging up her lawn to replace it at no cost to her. Her house was built in 1986. In your case you may have a defective neutral conductor or bad neutral connection which, as some other posters have noted, can be hazardous to life and equipment. Your grounding conductor at your water pipe and/or ground rod should be looked at also. I suggest that you call an electrician, let him investigate, and ask him to call the power company if he feels it is their problem. I have found that the power companies respond better to qualified individuals and sometimes dismiss the homeowners complaints until they are very serious. Something that you can safely try on your own is to shut off all of your 2-pole circuit breakers in your electrical panel, but leave the single pole breakers on. You should unplug your electronic appliances (TV, VCR, cordless telephone, computer ...) before doing this. If nothing works in the house, or if the lights are dim, that could indicate a bad neutral and grounding conductor. I would be interested in hearing what the actual problem is after everyone checks it out. John Grabowski http://www.mrelectrician.tv "Cheryl" wrote in message ... In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski" artfully composed this message within .net on 03 Jun 2004: Cheryl, I have a few questions. How old is your home? 15 years. Is the electrical service underground or overhead? It may be a combination. Our whole neighborhood was knocked out (downed power lines) after Hurricane Isobel and the overhead lines and poles had to be replaced. But, a neighbor who has the same problem (I just found out!) said the power company told them in this neighborhood the power supplying homes is underground. Can you correlate the flickering lights with thunderstorms and lightning somewhere in your area? Nope. Nothing weird going on outdoors at all when this happens. Though it does happen when there are storms, as well. Do any of your neighbors have the same experiences? At least one does as I just found out. I'll ask around this weekend. What sort of major electric appliances do you have (Air conditioning, stove, water heater, etc.)? All electric home; no gas supply lines in the neighborhood, so all of the major appliances are electric. Nothing out of the ordinary. Do you have an emergency generator connected to your home? No, but I sure would like one. Did you make any changes to your home or install anything prior to the beginning of the flickering problem? No. New heat pump installed 3 years ago, but the timing doesn't draw a parallel. Do you have a battery back up system for your home computer? Do you have a large copy machine or printer that is left on most of the time? I use a laptop, and I go to battery power when it acts up like it did last night. Copier/printer only on when I need to use it with an old desktop as a print server. They are on a surge suppressor. How close is your home to the power company's nearest substation? Has there been any major construction in your area recently such as the opening of a new office building, shopping center, or housing development? I don't know about the substation; construction, YES, always in this area. New homes are going up all the time. HUGE homes. Nearest new developments are about a mile away in two separate directions. The power company has instruments that can monitor the power coming into your home. You can try and demand that they set something up at your location. Otherwise, contact an electrician who can rent the instruments and connect it to your service. That might provide you with tangible evidence as to the cause. Thank you John. The new knowledge of at least one neighbor having the same problem brought up something discouraging. They had contacted the power company a while back (I forgot to ask how long ago) and were told that the underground wires probably needed replacing and they would wait until they "went". No good. I could have a fire or lose major appliances in the meantime. I'm going to follow up. But how? Have an electrician do what you wrote above and present that to the power company? First, I will call them myself and get them to come out and see what they say after a new complaint. When I first bought this house almost 4 years ago, the power used to go out with almost every storm. I can recall the flickering occurring before Isobel, but the power doesn't go out at the drop of a hat since they replaced the overheads. But, the flickering has gotten worse. John Grabowski http://www.mrelectrician.tv -- Cheryl |
#21
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski"
artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004: installation crew shoddy work; bad dead leg; grounding conductor; etc I suggest that you call an electrician, let him investigate, and ask him to call the power company if he feels it is their problem. I have found that the power companies respond better to qualified individuals and sometimes dismiss the homeowners complaints until they are very serious. I have already called the power company after so many of the same type posts alerting me that there is a problem. I've also identified an electrician friend of my brothers, but he's out of town. Hopefully the power company can test the voltage, but if there is an allowable 10% fluctuation, and the power isn't surging or dipping tonight (which is hasn't so far that I've noticed) I may not know tonight what the actual fluctuation has been going to. I guess last night would have been the perfect time to see exactly what was going on. An electrician is definitely in order because I certainly don't feel this is safe until I know how much it is surging to. Something that you can safely try on your own is to shut off all of your 2-pole circuit breakers in your electrical panel, but leave the single pole breakers on. You should unplug your electronic appliances (TV, VCR, cordless telephone, computer ...) before doing this. If nothing works in the house, or if the lights are dim, that could indicate a bad neutral and grounding conductor. I'm afraid I don't know what two-pole circuit breakers are; This might sound silly and obvious, but are they the ones that look like double breakers? You don't have to answer, I'll go google. I would be interested in hearing what the actual problem is after everyone checks it out. I'll post an update once I know. Thank you and everyone else for the suggestions and possiblities. -- Cheryl |
#22
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Power surges
Two pole breakers are the 30, 40, and 50 amp breakers inside
breaker box that provide 240 VAC to big appliances such as air conditioner compressor, electric dryer, or electric stove. Turning these off will not undo or temporarily resolve a defective neutral problem. In fact those circuits don't even use the neutral wire. If other neighbors are suffering same problem, then this is a utility problem. Look outside. How does your electric meter connect to telephone pole? Follow the overhead wires. I suspect both you and neighbor share a common transformer - those large cylinders atop a pole. Call the electric company. Tell them, "Based upon my description, an electrical engineer suspects you and your neighbor share a broken neutral causing voltage problems." Have that utility company operator reads back that sentence so that the sentence goes to one who appreciates the seriousness. Damning fact is other neighbors share the problem. Most times, a damaged neutral is only a minor problem. However I saw one house that exploded due to a broken neutral in utility's transformer. IOW call now no matter how late. Most every time, it is nothing serious. But only they can know. BTW, to give you some kind of idea how totally ignorant some 'experts' can be - look at the ridiculous nonsense from some idiot who thinks the utility surges power to burn off branches. Far too often, these types pose as knowledgeable. Makes it rather embarrassing to think he may even be an American. Cheryl wrote: I have already called the power company after so many of the same type posts alerting me that there is a problem. I've also identified an electrician friend of my brothers, but he's out of town. Hopefully the power company can test the voltage, but if there is an allowable 10% fluctuation, and the power isn't surging or dipping tonight (which is hasn't so far that I've noticed) I may not know tonight what the actual fluctuation has been going to. I guess last night would have been the perfect time to see exactly what was going on. An electrician is definitely in order because I certainly don't feel this is safe until I know how much it is surging to. ... I'm afraid I don't know what two-pole circuit breakers are; This might sound silly and obvious, but are they the ones that look like double breakers? You don't have to answer, I'll go google. ... |
#23
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Power surges
Cheryl wrote in message ...
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. How frequent are the surges? 1 per day or much more than that? Do the surges always come on at the same time, or at "rounded" times such as 9:00 PM, 10:30 PM, 11:45PM? I had a friend who back in 1993 was running a small ISP from his basement. He said that every night at exactly 10:15 PM there was a power surge or sag or something that would screw up a couple of his modems, which he then had to reset. They had called the utility company who explained to them that at this specific time they did something to the power supply (can't remember what, but something like reduce the power generation of one of their power plants) for the night because the overall demand for power would always drop after 10:00 PM. Why was this only affecting him (i.e. why wasn't everybody with a modem at home getting screwed up?) I'm not sure, but perhaps because he was using up a lot more power than the average person (regular appliances + 4 servers, 4 monitors, 60 modems) that his house was more "sensitive" to fluctuations in power. |
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Power surges
Larry Caldwell wrote:
condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage. Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am missing here? |
#26
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Power surges
In article ,
(Valid User) says... Larry Caldwell wrote: condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage. Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am missing here? Yes, the ground can be energized. A code ground has to be less than 25 ohms to ground. In dry weather, you can connect a 20 amp breaker directly to a ground wire and the breaker won't pop. The circuit depends on the neutral back to the transformer, and if that goes bad, the ground circuit can get very hot indeed. -- http://home.teleport.com/~larryc |
#27
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Power surges
Larry Caldwell wrote:
In article , (Valid User) says... Larry Caldwell wrote: condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage. Does that ground can be energized? If so, then those bare ground wires can be dangerous, as they attache to all the metal covers. What I am missing here? Yes, the ground can be energized. A code ground has to be less than 25 ohms to ground. In dry weather, you can connect a 20 amp breaker directly to a ground wire and the breaker won't pop. The circuit depends on the neutral back to the transformer, and if that goes bad, the ground circuit can get very hot indeed. So suppose your outlet boxes and cover plates are metal, and there is loose neutral connection leading upto the outlet. Then it would be dangerous to touch the cover plate, when that outlet, or some down the circuit, is plugged in? |
#28
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Power surges
In article ,
(Valid User) says... So suppose your outlet boxes and cover plates are metal, and there is loose neutral connection leading upto the outlet. Then it would be dangerous to touch the cover plate, when that outlet, or some down the circuit, is plugged in? No, but if there is a bad neutral connection between the main panel and the transformer, ALL neutrals and grounds in the house can have a dangerous voltage on them. This is how over-voltage conditions can exist. When there is an unbalanced load and a bad neutral, the neutral carries a voltage that is out of phase with the more lightly loaded leg. Lights will burn brighter, motors will run faster, equipment will burn out, and people will get electrocuted. While installing a hot tub on a branch circuit, I discovered 2 volts between the neutral and the ground at the hot tub. It was popping the GFI breaker. I called the power company, and they had a crew out to re- do all the connections between the transformer and my meter base *that day*. They identified a corroded connection at the weather head as the problem. My parents' old farm house had the bright light and faster motor problem a few years ago. That was identified as a poorly installed connection in the meter base - aluminum wire and no anti-oxidant caused the neutral to corrode away. In a single outlet, a loose neutral connection may cause intermittent behavior, or even overheating, but it will not energize the outlet cover. -- http://home.teleport.com/~larryc |
#29
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", Larry Caldwell
artfully composed this message within nk.net on 03 Jun 2004: What you describe is caused by a bad neutral circuit. It is probably the power company's fault, though if your aluminum lead-in wire was not installed properly the fault may be yours. It is a VERY dangerous condition. The neutral is bonded to the ground in your breaker box, so every ground circuit in your house may be carrying a lethal voltage. If you are not able to troubleshoot this yourself, CALL AN ELECTRICIAN IMMEDIATELY! I would also be smoking the power company's lines about the stupid pencil pusher who couldn't tell there was a dangerous condition at your location. They should have had a crew on your doorstep within 2 hours. Ok, you're scaring me so point received! I've checked the circuit breaker box and don't smell anything, it isn't hot, not even warm. The problem is that I can only tell this is happening when it is dark, because other than the refrigerator, I don't notice anything with other appliances. Mostly just the lights. I won't let this go, and I'll call the power company. I've never had any circuit breakers pop at all, but an air purifier has blown internal fuses (1 amp IIRC) at times, but that was before I moved the humidifier (which I only run in the summer). The air conditioner wasn't even on last night. -- Cheryl |
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Power surges
According to Cheryl :
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", Larry Caldwell artfully composed this message within nk.net on 03 Jun 2004: What you describe is caused by a bad neutral circuit. Ok, you're scaring me so point received! You should be. Loose main neutrals are _very_ dangerous. Don't bother with an electrician unless they're already there. Call your power company immediately. Say "lights brightening" and "I suspect a loose main neutral connection" and they will be there fast. -- Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them. |
#31
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Power surges
Me again....
C I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC C literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a C surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them C somewhere. C C Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I C could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING! So that explains why ZoneAlarm was having a fit this morning! g C I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power C supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even C 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a C constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. C Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT C they also have serial outputs a logging of events with C configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is C and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This C one may do this C http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. C Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having. C C Just a thought. C C Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an C electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that C this isn't something to ignore. Thank you! A UPS is an Uninterruptible Power Supply. Plugs into the wall outlet and the computer/whatever plugs in to it. Has a battery inside so when the power goes out or dips below a certain level it kicks in. Here I also have the desk lamp plugged in to one of the UPSs (I have multiple computers -- why should I be in the dark?! As you are using a laptop it's battery acts like a UPS. If/when you decide to get a UPS get a good one. Bigger is better (up to a point). The more capacity a UPS has the longer run time it has. (I've got a 900W UPS in the basement which backs up most of the VCRs and provides some emergency lighting -- the power goes off enough from the birds/squirrels playing with the pole transformer out back. 'Bout ready to get a generator! - ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ® * COS C:\DOS\RUN C:\DOS\CRASH C:\USER\FORMAT C: --- þ RoseReader 2.52á P003186 þ The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA 563-359-1971 --- þ RIMEGate(tm)/RGXMod V1.13 at BBSWORLD * |
#32
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Power surges
JG Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the
JG power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried JG directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for Reminds me of what happened while I was working years ago. Power to the building was underground, from a dedicated substation. Feed between the substation and the headquarters building failed, blowing the substation and also overloading other circuits in the city, causing them to trip. Was told there was something like 60 volt-amps running through bare earth. (The site was shut down for a few days until the substation and wiring was replaced.) - ¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ® * Mommy Dearest: Do I have to send you engraved invitation? Sit down & eat! --- þ RoseReader 2.52á P003186 þ The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA 563-359-1971 --- þ RIMEGate(tm)/RGXMod V1.13 at BBSWORLD * |
#33
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Power surges
"Cheryl" wrote in message ... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. -- Cheryl If it is everything then there a plethora of places to start. Neighbors would be first in my list. Especially if they are on the same transformer or line. Not if they are on a different transformer or line. Next would be to check all of the connections in the panel. Not a good place to play unless your comfortable working around an invisible servant that wants to kill you. Some humor. It would be handy if you had a voltage meter that had a scale that you could measure the voltage. Can you borrow one. Needs to have a zero to 300 VAC scale. Radio Shack has some that are less than 100 bucks. If it persists then try the utility. Now your heading into a mess. There are standards that they must provide. It is plus 10% to minus 7% of nominal. That means that the average plug could read any thing from 132 to 111.6 volts. The sad part of IEEE 519 is the next paragraph says except for short periods of time. No definition on this one. Is a day a short period of time compared to a year, you bet. If you do not want to borrow or buy a meter then it is probably time to call someone to come over and check it out. Plan on the problem going away when they arrive. It usually does, my experience anyway. This might need a recording meter left on the service for at least 24 hours, I would want a weeks worth of data. |
#34
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Power surges
I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC literate
enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them somewhere. Why not do this. I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT they also have serial outputs a logging of events with configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This one may do this http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having. Just a thought. -B "SQLit" wrote in message news:IxJvc.15664$lL1.5851@fed1read03... "Cheryl" wrote in message ... Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. -- Cheryl If it is everything then there a plethora of places to start. Neighbors would be first in my list. Especially if they are on the same transformer or line. Not if they are on a different transformer or line. Next would be to check all of the connections in the panel. Not a good place to play unless your comfortable working around an invisible servant that wants to kill you. Some humor. It would be handy if you had a voltage meter that had a scale that you could measure the voltage. Can you borrow one. Needs to have a zero to 300 VAC scale. Radio Shack has some that are less than 100 bucks. If it persists then try the utility. Now your heading into a mess. There are standards that they must provide. It is plus 10% to minus 7% of nominal. That means that the average plug could read any thing from 132 to 111.6 volts. The sad part of IEEE 519 is the next paragraph says except for short periods of time. No definition on this one. Is a day a short period of time compared to a year, you bet. If you do not want to borrow or buy a meter then it is probably time to call someone to come over and check it out. Plan on the problem going away when they arrive. It usually does, my experience anyway. This might need a recording meter left on the service for at least 24 hours, I would want a weeks worth of data. |
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Power surges
An informed computer user knows that anything effective at a
computer is already inside the computer. But that internal PC protection can be overwhelmed IF the incoming transient is not earthed before entering a building. Effective protection is about earthing. PCs have internal protection that assumes a building has a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Protectors are not protection. Protectors are only effective when connected 'less than 10 fee' to protection - earth ground. Earthing is why household electric must be upgraded or exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code (NEC) requirements. So what does that adjacent protector do? It can even contribute to damage of an adjacent computer when that computer is powered off. Again, this is about first learning what that protector actually does. Many who recommend plug-in protectors don't even have a clue as to what it does. They actually think it stops, blocks, or absorbs a destructive transient. 3 miles of non-conductive air could not stop that transient. Is a silly little plug-in protector going to do what three miles of air could not? Of course not. Myths promote plug-in protectors. Effective protection is about earthing. So what does the plug-in protector avoid mentioning to sell their overpriced and ineffective product? Earthing. No discussion about earthing means others will recommend the plug-in protector only on 'word association'. If it is a protector, then it must be protection? Wrong. Protector and protection are two different components of a protection 'system'. So that myth purveyors don't know this, the plug-in protector manufacturer must avoid all mention of earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. The manufacturer forgets to mention that part because plug-in protectors with grossly insufficient joules are so profitable. Profitable especially when so often recommended by myths. Any protection effective at the computer is already inside that computer. The plug-in protector is promoted by myths - as demonstrated by no mention of the most critical component - earth ground. Brikp wrote: I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them somewhere. Why not do this. I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT they also have serial outputs a logging of events with configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This one may do this http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having. Just a thought. |
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Power surges
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "Brikp"
artfully composed this message within on 03 Jun 2004: I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them somewhere. Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING! Why not do this. I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does. Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT they also have serial outputs a logging of events with configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This one may do this http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70. Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having. Just a thought. Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that this isn't something to ignore. Thank you! -- Cheryl |
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Power surges
It's unlikely from you description that the power company is
instantaneously increasing the voltage to your house. What may be happening is that someone else is loading down the transformer that supplies your house and when the unload it the voltage increases. If this load were on just one side (120 volts) that would explain why only some circuits are not affected. The best solution is to get a recording voltmeter and put it on each side of the line for a day or so each to see exactly what is happening. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW RB Cheryl wrote: Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. |
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Power surges
In article , RB wrote:
It's unlikely from you description that the power company is instantaneously increasing the voltage to your house. What may be happening is that someone else is loading down the transformer that supplies your house and when the unload it the voltage increases. If this load were on just one side (120 volts) that would explain why only some circuits are not affected. The best solution is to get a recording voltmeter and put it on each side of the line for a day or so each to see exactly what is happening. SNIP Cheryl wrote: Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. I would have an electrician check for a bad neutral connection in the breaker box or further upstream. If it is upstream of the electric meter, depending on your jurisdiction you may get the electric company to fix this or pay for fixing it. Symptoms of a bad neutral connection or an open neutral are some lights and appliances receiving excessive voltage, often others getting low voltage, and voltage changing noticeably when some heavier loads or sometimes even lights are turned on or off. If you mix loads of different power factors in a house with an open neutral, it is possible to have all circuits have excessive voltage or the two sides of your incoming power line to have voltages adding up to more than 240 volts. But I think usually you will find some loads undervoltaged and some loads overvoltaged if you have an open neutral. If you have an open neutral, it is a fire hazard because overvoltaged appliances may catch fire. If the breaker box has lose screws that are not holding wires properly, you can tighten them. Be careful and use a screwdriver with a good plastic handle and don't touch the metal part, and you increase your safety from electric shock if you stand on a plastic plastic milk crate or a piece of known good very dry non-decayed wood. Do not stand on anything unstable - you may grab something live if you start to fall! The incoming wires are not shut off by the main breaker, and one of these may be loose. The neutral bus may have voltage on it if the incoming neutral wire is loose or not connected. Call an electrician if you do not feel up to checking that screws in your breaker box are tight. - Don Klipstein ) |
#39
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Power surges
I would consider a whole house Electric Panel Surge Protector...which is
available in Menards for $59. It is wired into the 240v. in your electric panel and monitors voltage spikes, etc...and adjusts them accordingly to prevent damage to things in the house. |
#40
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Power surges
On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:41:31 -0500, Cheryl
wrote: Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the power company and their annoying automated messages state that flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges) no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80 for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might not be able to resolve it for that price. I saw your posting and don't know if you've solved the problem by now. Others may have passed along my idea but one dangerous possibility is that either at your service entrance and/or breaker box you have a bad neutral connection. Normally in household wiring, the load is balanced across both 120volt phases, totalling 240 volts. However, if the load becomes imbalanced AND there is a poor neutral connection, one 120v phase may fall in voltage and the other may rise, giving the effects that you describe. Thus you may suddenly have only 80 volts on half of your circuits but the other circuits might rise to 160 volts, for example. Any decent electrician should be able to rapidly check this out. Doug |
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