In article ,
(Valid User) says...

Sorry for the novice question. But how the electricity know it will
go through the netral first, and use the ground only when the netral
is bad? Why not use ground first?

Perhaps you should buy a book on basic house wiring. The pictures will
be a big help.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", "John Grabowski"
artfully composed this message within
on 03 Jun 2004:


installation crew shoddy work; bad dead leg; grounding conductor;
etc

I suggest that you call an electrician, let him investigate, and
ask him to call the power company if he feels it is their
problem. I have found that the power companies respond better
to qualified individuals and sometimes dismiss the homeowners
complaints until they are very serious.

I have already called the power company after so many of the same
type posts alerting me that there is a problem. I've also
identified an electrician friend of my brothers, but he's out of
town. Hopefully the power company can test the voltage, but if
there is an allowable 10% fluctuation, and the power isn't surging
or dipping tonight (which is hasn't so far that I've noticed) I may
not know tonight what the actual fluctuation has been going to. I
guess last night would have been the perfect time to see exactly
what was going on. An electrician is definitely in order because I
certainly don't feel this is safe until I know how much it is
surging to.

Something that you can safely try on your own is to shut off all
of your 2-pole circuit breakers in your electrical panel, but
leave the single pole breakers on. You should unplug your
electronic appliances (TV, VCR, cordless telephone, computer
...) before doing this. If nothing works in the house, or if the
lights are dim, that could indicate a bad neutral and grounding
conductor.

I'm afraid I don't know what two-pole circuit breakers are; This
might sound silly and obvious, but are they the ones that look like
double breakers? You don't have to answer, I'll go google.

I would be interested in hearing what the actual problem is
after everyone checks it out.


I'll post an update once I know. Thank you and everyone else for
the suggestions and possiblities.

--
Cheryl

"Pop Rivet" wrote in message
...
"Lost-In-Translation"
wrote in message
ink.net...
"Dan Hartung" wrote in message
...
Lost-In-Translation wrote:
Don't discount the power company either. We found, in
our area, that we
were experiencing "meter jumping" which was power
surges that made the
meters spin like a whirling dervish for a few
seconds!! Sure, it made
for
some higher power bills too.

Come to find out, the power company will "surge" the
lines as those
quick
surges will help burn off small branches that may be
laying across
wires.
It's a dirty trick, but they do it.

Sounds like an urban legend to me. Power surges will
stress the line
itself; at the right level it will heat up and stretch.
A stretched
power line is more dangerous.

I really wish it were, but in South Florida, where FPL has
a monopolistic
choke hold on millions of customers - it's exactly what
they do and they
admitted it on a local news story as a "necessary
maintenance proceedure"
and that the "average" customer would only experience
"pennies" added to
their power bills to accomplish this. They just didn't
say how many
"pennies" over time, 5? 10? 100? 1,000,000,000? Who
knows.

I've actually seen branches laying across utility lines in
my neighborhood
area, many lay they for a very long time then, for some
reason, they start
to burn and break off.


I challenge you to back that up with anything credible,
concerning the "surging" to burn stuff off the lines.

Second, you're purely guessing, IFF you really saw it, about
the reason/s for branches starting to burn. Personally, I
doubt you have seen that. Sorry. You'd eventually flash
into flame too with that much amperage available to you.
Pop

I wasn't looking to engage in an argument, just repeating a news story in
which the power company admitted to power surging to burn off tree branches.
And yes, I've seen it, it is really quite common, especially around here
where one in three trees is in the power lines.

Two pole breakers are the 30, 40, and 50 amp breakers inside
breaker box that provide 240 VAC to big appliances such as air
conditioner compressor, electric dryer, or electric stove.
Turning these off will not undo or temporarily resolve a
defective neutral problem. In fact those circuits don't even
use the neutral wire.

If other neighbors are suffering same problem, then this is
a utility problem. Look outside. How does your electric
meter connect to telephone pole? Follow the overhead wires. I
suspect both you and neighbor share a common transformer -
those large cylinders atop a pole.

Call the electric company. Tell them, "Based upon my
description, an electrical engineer suspects you and your
neighbor share a broken neutral causing voltage problems."
Have that utility company operator reads back that sentence so
that the sentence goes to one who appreciates the
seriousness. Damning fact is other neighbors share the
problem. Most times, a damaged neutral is only a minor
problem. However I saw one house that exploded due to a
broken neutral in utility's transformer. IOW call now no
matter how late. Most every time, it is nothing serious. But
only they can know.

BTW, to give you some kind of idea how totally ignorant some
'experts' can be - look at the ridiculous nonsense from some
idiot who thinks the utility surges power to burn off
branches. Far too often, these types pose as knowledgeable.
Makes it rather embarrassing to think he may even be an
American.

Cheryl wrote:
I have already called the power company after so many of the same
type posts alerting me that there is a problem. I've also
identified an electrician friend of my brothers, but he's out of
town. Hopefully the power company can test the voltage, but if
there is an allowable 10% fluctuation, and the power isn't surging
or dipping tonight (which is hasn't so far that I've noticed) I may
not know tonight what the actual fluctuation has been going to. I
guess last night would have been the perfect time to see exactly
what was going on. An electrician is definitely in order because I
certainly don't feel this is safe until I know how much it is
surging to.
...

I'm afraid I don't know what two-pole circuit breakers are; This
might sound silly and obvious, but are they the ones that look like
double breakers? You don't have to answer, I'll go google.
...

The most expensive protection is a plug-in protector - on
the order of tens of times more money per protected
appliance. Effective whole house protector costs about $1 per
protected appliance. Even worse, get plug-in protector
specs. They don't even claim to protect from the type of
surge that typically damages electronics. They claim to
protect from a type of surge that typically does not exist.

A big difference exists between the shysters who recommend
plug-in protectors and those who make recommendations based
upon engineering. The latter provide extensive facts AND - a
most important characteristic - the numbers. Junk scientists
and myth purveyors don't provide useful numbers nor cite
electrical concepts. Fundamental - the plug-in protectors are
obviously not effective due to no 'less than 10 foot'
connection to earth ground. Protection is about earthing.

Unfortunately, others let science (such as elementary school
science) go over their heads. Those others, instead, look to
how the presentation is made rather than delve into facts. An
environment rich and profitable for myth purveyors. Posted
elsewhere are facts posted with numbers. How to identify
ineffective protectors: 1) no dedicated connection to earth
ground and 2) avoids all discussion about earthing.

Wasting tens of times more money on plug-in protectors that
are also undersized? Or install protection as it was
installed before WWII so that direct lightning strikes do not
damage electronics. Learn from myths that promote plug-in
protectors, OR learn from science first demonstrated by
Franklin in 1752 and demonstrated by the 25 direct strikes
every year to FM and TV equipment atop the Empire State
Building. The latter demonstrates why 'whole house'
protectors are so effective.

Ask one who recommends plug-in protectors what those
protectors actually do. Why? They must avoid answering this
question to recommend plug-in protectors. Effective
protection is defined by earth ground - not by the protector.
A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground
which is why 'whole house' protectors are so effective AND why
plug-in protectors, instead, avoid the earthing discussion.

Protectors, of course, is beyond the scope of the thread.
Extensive discussions about effective protection have been
posted elsewhere.

Pop Rivet wrote:
True, it can really be a problem, esp in the lightning areas
like FL. Whole house protection is good, but, and this is
opinion, so you'll find many different opinions on this,
even with whole house protection, OR instead of, which is
how I think, it is still necessary to have specific
protection on sensitive electronic components such as
computers, computerized sewing machines, etc. In general,
if you can afford the whole house protection, then all you
need is the cheapie suppressors, like Walmart etc. sell, at
each device. If you don't have whole house protection,
however, then you should have something much more reliable
and capable of taking a strong hit. There isn't much of
anything that will save you from a direct lightning hit to
power lines outside your home, but that isn't a very usual
occurrence.
It's hard to describe how "good" a protector should be,
but in general, one wants a 3-way protection, and the higher
the number of "joules" the suppressor can handle, the better
the protection. Some of the good ones even offer equipment
replacement if their products fail to protect you, but ...
like I said, nothing is going to protect against a direct
lightning hit.
Google for "surge protection" +computer (use the quotes)
and you can get lots of info on it and some are good for the
layman to read and figure out how they work.

Pop

In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", w_tom
artfully composed this message within
on 03 Jun 2004:

two-pole breakers: thanks for the description.

Call the electric company. Tell them, "Based upon my
description, an electrical engineer suspects you and your
neighbor share a broken neutral causing voltage problems."
Have that utility company operator reads back that sentence so
that the sentence goes to one who appreciates the
seriousness. Damning fact is other neighbors share the
problem. Most times, a damaged neutral is only a minor
problem. However I saw one house that exploded due to a
broken neutral in utility's transformer. IOW call now no
matter how late. Most every time, it is nothing serious. But
only they can know.

After 11pm and they haven't shown up yet. I called them around 8.
If they do not show up tonight (and they are running out of time
for me to even answer the door now) I am going to print each of you
guys's replies in the morning at the office, call them again, and
tell them MY NEIGHBORS and I share a broken neutral causing voltage
problems." Did I sound like I know what I'm talking about? It
isn't doing it tonight. I guess this is why I keep putting it off
until like last night happened. I was truely scared. It does that
now and again, and with no storm or anything. If I call in the
morning I can go home during the day, but not between 11 and 1. My
dad will usually come over if I can't be here for something like
this but he's on an Alaska cruise with my mom for 2 weeks (more
panic not having my dad here! lol)



--
Cheryl

According to Cheryl :
In the fine newsgroup "alt.home.repair", Larry Caldwell
artfully composed this message within
nk.net on 03
Jun 2004:

What you describe is caused by a bad neutral circuit.

Ok, you're scaring me so point received!

You should be.

Loose main neutrals are _very_ dangerous. Don't bother with an
electrician unless they're already there. Call your power company
immediately. Say "lights brightening" and "I suspect a loose
main neutral connection" and they will be there fast.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Me again....

C I had a thought - Cheryl obviously has a PC and is at least PC
C literate enough to find and post to this NG. Most would agree a
C surge protector is a must have on her PC setup. We all have them
C somewhere.
C
C Ah, you give me too much credit. I only discovered Usenet so I
C could learn how to hack hotmail. JUST KIDDING!

So that explains why ZoneAlarm was having a fit this morning! g


C I have installed and used in business un-interruptible power
C supplies (UPS) that have power monitors in them and will even
C 'smooth out' the levels automatically. In other words maintain a
C constant 115V when the line varies the +- 7 % it usually does.
C Well, I am not recommending this as a long term solution BUT
C they also have serial outputs a logging of events with
C configurable thresholds. So, you can see where your voltage is
C and record every time it exceeds a predefined threshold. This
C one may do this
C http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=17 for $70.
C Worthwhile even w/o the issues she is having.
C
C Just a thought.
C
C Way above my comprehension. I think I'm going to need to call an
C electrician for this one. Now that my suspicions are confirmed that
C this isn't something to ignore. Thank you!

A UPS is an Uninterruptible Power Supply. Plugs into the wall outlet
and the computer/whatever plugs in to it. Has a battery inside so
when the power goes out or dips below a certain level it kicks in.
Here I also have the desk lamp plugged in to one of the UPSs (I have
multiple computers -- why should I be in the dark?!

As you are using a laptop it's battery acts like a UPS.

If/when you decide to get a UPS get a good one. Bigger is better (up
to a point). The more capacity a UPS has the longer run time it has.
(I've got a 900W UPS in the basement which backs up most of the VCRs
and provides some emergency lighting -- the power goes off enough from
the birds/squirrels playing with the pole transformer out back. 'Bout
ready to get a generator!

-
¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

* COS C:\DOS\RUN C:\DOS\CRASH C:\USER\FORMAT C:
---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P003186
þ The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA 563-359-1971
---
þ RIMEGate(tm)/RGXMod V1.13 at BBSWORLD *

JG Cheryl, A problem that I have seen occasionally in New Jersey is that the
JG power companies installed underground services using aluminum wire buried
JG directly in the ground without conduit. Although the wire is approved for

Reminds me of what happened while I was working years ago. Power to
the building was underground, from a dedicated substation. Feed
between the substation and the headquarters building failed, blowing
the substation and also overloading other circuits in the city,
causing them to trip. Was told there was something like 60 volt-amps
running through bare earth.

(The site was shut down for a few days until the substation and wiring
was replaced.)

-
¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

* Mommy Dearest: Do I have to send you engraved invitation? Sit down & eat!
---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P003186
þ The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA 563-359-1971
---
þ RIMEGate(tm)/RGXMod V1.13 at BBSWORLD *

W BTW, to give you some kind of idea how totally ignorant some
W 'experts' can be - look at the ridiculous nonsense from some
W idiot who thinks the utility surges power to burn off
W branches. Far too often, these types pose as knowledgeable.

I would suspect this is a misinterpretation of facts. The branch is
across a power line. At some point it becomes conductive and catches
fire. At the same time a brightening of the lights is noted. The
increase is really due to the branch conducting but misinterpreted as
someone at the power company cranking up the voltage to get rid of the
branch.

(Seems like the fire department would get mad at the power company for
causing all those fires! g)

-
¯ barry.martinþATþthesafebbs.zeppole.com ®

* He doesn't buy toothpaste because his teeth aren't loose!
---
þ RoseReader 2.52á P003186
þ The Safe BBS þ Bettendorf, IA 563-359-1971
---
þ RIMEGate(tm)/RGXMod V1.13 at BBSWORLD *

If a tree branch is shorting a power line to ground, then
lights either remain unaffected or get dimmer; not brighter.
A reduced AC line voltage (ie. a short to ground) does not
cause lights to get brighter.

barry martin wrote:
w_tom wrote:
BTW, to give you some kind of idea how totally ignorant some
'experts' can be - look at the ridiculous nonsense from some
idiot who thinks the utility surges power to burn off
branches. Far too often, these types pose as knowledgeable.

I would suspect this is a misinterpretation of facts. The branch
is across a power line. At some point it becomes conductive and
catches fire. At the same time a brightening of the lights is
noted. The increase is really due to the branch conducting but
misinterpreted as someone at the power company cranking up the
voltage to get rid of the branch.

(Seems like the fire department would get mad at the power
company for causing all those fires! g)

It's unlikely from you description that the power company is
instantaneously increasing the voltage to your house. What may be
happening is that someone else is loading down the transformer that
supplies your house and when the unload it the voltage increases. If
this load were on just one side (120 volts) that would explain why only
some circuits are not affected.

The best solution is to get a recording voltmeter and put it on each
side of the line for a day or so each to see exactly what is happening.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

RB

Cheryl wrote:
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

In article , RB wrote:
It's unlikely from you description that the power company is
instantaneously increasing the voltage to your house. What may be
happening is that someone else is loading down the transformer that
supplies your house and when the unload it the voltage increases. If
this load were on just one side (120 volts) that would explain why only
some circuits are not affected.

The best solution is to get a recording voltmeter and put it on each
side of the line for a day or so each to see exactly what is happening.
SNIP
Cheryl wrote:
Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

I would have an electrician check for a bad neutral connection in the
breaker box or further upstream. If it is upstream of the electric meter,
depending on your jurisdiction you may get the electric company to fix
this or pay for fixing it.

Symptoms of a bad neutral connection or an open neutral are some lights
and appliances receiving excessive voltage, often others getting low
voltage, and voltage changing noticeably when some heavier loads or
sometimes even lights are turned on or off.
If you mix loads of different power factors in a house with an open
neutral, it is possible to have all circuits have excessive voltage or the
two sides of your incoming power line to have voltages adding up to more
than 240 volts. But I think usually you will find some loads
undervoltaged and some loads overvoltaged if you have an open neutral.

If you have an open neutral, it is a fire hazard because overvoltaged
appliances may catch fire.

If the breaker box has lose screws that are not holding wires properly,
you can tighten them. Be careful and use a screwdriver with a good
plastic handle and don't touch the metal part, and you increase your
safety from electric shock if you stand on a plastic plastic milk crate or
a piece of known good very dry non-decayed wood. Do not stand on
anything unstable - you may grab something live if you start to fall! The
incoming wires are not shut off by the main breaker, and one of these may
be loose. The neutral bus may have voltage on it if the incoming neutral
wire is loose or not connected.
Call an electrician if you do not feel up to checking that screws in
your breaker box are tight.

- Don Klipstein )

I would consider a whole house Electric Panel Surge Protector...which is
available in Menards for $59. It is wired into the 240v. in your
electric panel and monitors voltage spikes, etc...and adjusts them
accordingly to prevent damage to things in the house.

On Wed, 02 Jun 2004 20:41:31 -0500, Cheryl
wrote:

Hello. It's possible I can't give enough information here for a
diffinitive answer, but I'm asking anyway. My lights and other
electrical appliances have recently been experiencing surges of
power; lights go brighter, refridgerator goes louder, etc. I'm afraid
this is going to damage something, or cause a fire. I've called the
power company and their annoying automated messages state that
flickering lights (etc) are usually caused by interier wiring, yet
others I've spoken to say that nothing can cause EXTRA power to be
supplied to the affected appliances, diminished yes, extra (surges)
no. It also doesn't effect one or two circuits, either, but pretty
much the whole house. Should I contact an electrician, or have the
power company come out and inspect? They say they'll charge me $80
for the visit if the problem isn't in their wiring, and they might
not be able to resolve it for that price.

I saw your posting and don't know if you've solved the problem by now.
Others may have passed along my idea but one dangerous possibility is
that either at your service entrance and/or breaker box you have a bad
neutral connection.

Normally in household wiring, the load is balanced across both 120volt
phases, totalling 240 volts. However, if the load becomes imbalanced
AND there is a poor neutral connection, one 120v phase may fall in
voltage and the other may rise, giving the effects that you describe.
Thus you may suddenly have only 80 volts on half of your circuits but
the other circuits might rise to 160 volts, for example.

Any decent electrician should be able to rapidly check this out.

Doug