A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

On 14 Feb 2004, Alan wrote:

A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper
plumbing in new home construction. He recommends plastic as he
says it is quieter. He charges the same for either one.
Anything else to consider?

It's easier for a typical homeowner to rework/repair down the
road. You make your new joints with liquid adhesive, not a torch
and solder.

--
TP / Network Man __________________________________
If u want the races for free,
somebody has to pay for it. ($1 Earl)

For drains plastic is much noisier than metal. My preferred solution is
cast iron for drains and copper for potable water. For plastic I like
schedule 80 PVC. Some will favor PEX.

RB

I-zheet M'drurz wrote:
On 14 Feb 2004, Alan wrote:


A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper
plumbing in new home construction. He recommends plastic as he
says it is quieter. He charges the same for either one.
Anything else to consider?


It's easier for a typical homeowner to rework/repair down the
road. You make your new joints with liquid adhesive, not a torch
and solder.

"I-zheet M'drurz" wrote in message
...
On 14 Feb 2004, Alan wrote:

A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper
plumbing in new home construction. He recommends plastic as he
says it is quieter. He charges the same for either one.
Anything else to consider?

It's easier for a typical homeowner to rework/repair down the
road. You make your new joints with liquid adhesive, not a torch
and solder.



The builder may also be calling PEX pipe plastic. While that doesn't
require soldering, the fittings may be a little specialized.

TP / Network Man __________________________________
If u want the races for free,
somebody has to pay for it. ($1 Earl)

"Alan" wrote in message
...
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

if there is no difference in price then copper, have them insulate the hot
water pipes. It will save you money in the long run.

Good luck with your builder, I hope it is not KB
I just told them to stuff it and bought another home.

No plastic is ever as good as copper. All plastics dry out over time.
"SQLit" wrote in message
news:JnqXb.68534$F15.3173@fed1read06...

"Alan" wrote in message
...
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

if there is no difference in price then copper, have them insulate the hot
water pipes. It will save you money in the long run.

Good luck with your builder, I hope it is not KB
I just told them to stuff it and bought another home.

Alan wrote:
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

Copper supply lines, plastic or cast iron waste lines. (Cast iron is
quieter) I would use plastic for horizontal waste lines and might use cast
iron for the waste stack.

Bob

Alan wrote:
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing
in new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

Yeah...what kind of copper? K? L? M?

--
dadiOH
_____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.0...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
____________________________

zxcvbob writes:
Alan wrote:
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

Copper supply lines, plastic or cast iron waste lines. (Cast iron is
quieter) I would use plastic for horizontal waste lines and might use cast
iron for the waste stack.

I've seen the plastic lines installed in new construction in our
area and have wondered about the ease with which a DIYer can
come along later and drive a nail through the lines. The light
metal pieces put across the studs won't slow anyone down very
much.

I also questioned the local building inspector's office
about using the plastic lines for grounding the electrical
service. They seemed to think it's OK. (There's a real
ground to ground also.)

[zxcvbob: How do you post from the University of Berlin?]

Everett M. Greene wrote:
zxcvbob writes:

Alan wrote:

A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

Copper supply lines, plastic or cast iron waste lines. (Cast iron is
quieter) I would use plastic for horizontal waste lines and might use cast
iron for the waste stack.


I've seen the plastic lines installed in new construction in our
area and have wondered about the ease with which a DIYer can
come along later and drive a nail through the lines. The light
metal pieces put across the studs won't slow anyone down very
much.

It's almost as easy to drive a nail through a copper pipe.

I also questioned the local building inspector's office
about using the plastic lines for grounding the electrical
service. They seemed to think it's OK. (There's a real
ground to ground also.)

You ground the electrical service to the *back side of the meter*, so it
should be thick-wall copper tubing or pipe. If the water entrance is
plastic, you wouldn't use it as a grounding electrode. You'll have to make
some other kind of grounding electrode.

[zxcvbob: How do you post from the University of Berlin?]

http://news.individual.net/

Best regards,
Bob

Do you mean they are wet to start? Polymers fail because of stress
cracking, oxidation and crosslinking or plasticizer migration. PVC and CPVC
is cheap compared to copper. PEX isn't. Much depends on the quality of your
water. BTW anyone can learn to properly sweat a copper connection in 15
minutes.,

No plastic is ever as good as copper. All plastics dry out over time.

On 14 Feb 2004, Curtis wrote:

... BTW anyone can learn
to properly sweat a copper connection in 15 minutes.,

I'm glad you think so. And even if that were true, let's see
them do one that's in a cramped space surrounded by flamable
building materials. Give 'em an hour and have the volunteer
fire company turned out, just to be ready.


--
TP

"Alan" wrote in message ...
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

This is Turtle.

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between two material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

You can picture my choice.

TURTLE



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 2/13/2004

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 12:54:00 GMT, Alan wrote:

A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

I have 3/4 and 1/2 in copper running all over my attic of my 20 year
old home.. About 14 years ago, it got down to sub 10 degree weather
for a few days and busted about 6 different spots on that copper
tubing. Maybe if the copper had been thicker, it wouldn't have
happened. Maybe if it had been bust resistant plastic .....

I still don't know which I would choose.

PJ

PJx wrote:

I have 3/4 and 1/2 in copper running all over my attic of my 20 year
old home.. About 14 years ago, it got down to sub 10 degree weather
for a few days and busted about 6 different spots on that copper
tubing. Maybe if the copper had been thicker, it wouldn't have
happened. Maybe if it had been bust resistant plastic .....

I still don't know which I would choose.

PJ

Frozen pipes will burst no matter the material. The force of expanding
frozen water is incredible. Last winter one of our building had a bad
freeze and iron pipe split, as did the copper. I don't think plastic would
be any better.

I'm just not sure about the very long term results with plastics. I'm
talking 30 or 50 years that copper will hold up under.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Coppres betta , easier to het turtles dog weth or the hack that gives
ya shet, or the thief ya see=A0 whn ya tryin ta pee out at night, Yea
OUT door peein shoulda be leegeel, like aut dour driinkin. an screwin,
an cussin, in doers its too messie. in doers is fwer sleepin

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote
PJx wrote:

I have 3/4 and 1/2 in copper running all over my attic of my 20 year
old home.. About 14 years ago, it got down to sub 10 degree weather
for a few days and busted about 6 different spots on that copper
tubing. Maybe if the copper had been thicker, it wouldn't have
happened. Maybe if it had been bust resistant plastic .....

I still don't know which I would choose.

PJ

Frozen pipes will burst no matter the material. The force of expanding
frozen water is incredible. Last winter one of our building had a bad
freeze and iron pipe split, as did the copper. I don't think plastic
would
be any better.

I'm just not sure about the very long term results with plastics. I'm
talking 30 or 50 years that copper will hold up under.
--
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

PEX is not harmed by freezing.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates.com/phpBB2/

"Alan" wrote
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

The choice of which material should be dictated by the quality of the water
to be run through it now and anytime in the future. Plastic is not harmed by
anything in water and doesn't add anything to the water run through it as
copper can and does.

Copper (poisoning) is very harmful to humans. Pinhole leaks are very common
in copper tubing. The water damage can be in the tens of thousands of
dollars. Replumbing a house is very expensive also and the usual replacement
material is PEX, or other plastic. If the water is acidic, has high DO CO2
TDS content or anything that will cause erosion corrosion, or bacteria, or
electrical grounds problems etc., copper is not the right choice.
http://tinyurl.com/39o8w

Plastic should be less than copper, and PEX is the lowest priced (system) of
any. The labor is very little for PEX, especially with 'homeruns' from a
manifold to each fixture.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates.com/phpBB2/

"TURTLE" wrote in message ...
"Alan" wrote in message ...
A builder I know is offering a choice of plastic or copper plumbing in
new home construction. He recommends plastic as he says it is
quieter. He charges the same for either one. Anything else to
consider?

This is Turtle.

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between two material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

You can picture my choice.

TURTLE

I would have, might still agree with you.
My personal experience includes a house done in 1978 in plastic with
no problems.
A rental unit in which the plastic elbows were replaced with copper
only to have the copper spring a pinhole that brought down a ceiling.
TB

According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between two
material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Gary Slusser :

PEX is not harmed by freezing.

Their metal fittings may be.

Plastic plumbing (ie: all plastic irrigation systems) is a lot more
forgiving of freezing than copper or iron because it stretches somewhat.

But, expecting it to stand up to a lot of freeze-thaw cycles
is just asking for trouble. Which is why you drain irrigation systems
for example.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Gary Slusser :

Copper (poisoning) is very harmful to humans. Pinhole leaks are very common
in copper tubing. The water damage can be in the tens of thousands of
dollars. Replumbing a house is very expensive also and the usual replacement
material is PEX, or other plastic. If the water is acidic, has high DO CO2
TDS content or anything that will cause erosion corrosion, or bacteria, or
electrical grounds problems etc., copper is not the right choice.
http://tinyurl.com/39o8w

What Gary says is true, however, I'll point out that such problems
are rare overall, corrosion mostly being a concern in some specific
areas.

I've never heard even hinted that copper pipe can be a toxicity hazard
to humans - copper is an essential mineral (in low concentrations of course)
certainly nothing even remotely close to the issue with lead solder.

Further, copper is _much_ more toxic to lower life forms than mammals.
Bare copper is rather more unlikely to harbor most bacteria than plastic is.

[There's a reason that PT lumber has copper in it...]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose
between two material of a stick you want to use to go out and
beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?

aluminum or wood

--
Roses are #FF0000, violets are #0000FF
all of my base, are belong to you

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ...
According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between two
material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

TURTLE



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.588 / Virus Database: 372 - Release Date: 2/14/2004

From: "TURTLE"



"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between
two
material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

TURTLE


I've seen some copper joints with a greenish ick around them, sometimes
culiminating in a 3-dimensional chunk of chalky ick. What is that?

Remains of the ick accumulation process. Better than at the
base of the commode, IMO.

HA HA Budys Here wrote in message
...
I've seen some copper joints with a greenish ick around them, sometimes
culiminating in a 3-dimensional chunk of chalky ick. What is that?

In article ,
(HA HA Budys Here) wrote:

From: "TURTLE"



"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between
two
material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

TURTLE


I've seen some copper joints with a greenish ick around them, sometimes
culiminating in a 3-dimensional chunk of chalky ick. What is that?


That ick comes from electroylisis, which in the plumbing world, happens
when two different types of pipes come into contact with each other, and
the results tend to show up at the joints, as you noticed. Most often
happens when someone uses tin/galvanized hangers to tie the pipes to
wood structure, or lays conduit right over the copper pipe without
sticking a piece of wood shim or cardboard or hunk of foam or whatever
to prevent direct contact between the two un-like pipes, or when someone
replaces a section of copper pipe with galvanized without using a
dilectric union, which is made of plastic, rubber and brass (brass
doesn't react with other metals, which is why brass is used for pipe
fittings).

AJS

"Chris Lewis" wrote
According to Gary Slusser :

PEX is not harmed by freezing.

Their metal fittings may be.

Plastic plumbing (ie: all plastic irrigation systems) is a lot more
forgiving of freezing than copper or iron because it stretches somewhat.

But, expecting it to stand up to a lot of freeze-thaw cycles
is just asking for trouble. Which is why you drain irrigation systems
for example.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In any type of plumbing, if the tubing expands as the water freezes, the
pressure is relieved, thereby the fittings don't break.

PE expands much more than other plastics, such as PVC, but PEX is able to
expand (its ID) more than any other type of water plumbing material without
failure. It has been tested to many thousands of expansions without failure.
Some is expanded to make its connections as opposed to crimped connections.
Heating it allows it to restore to its original shape, such as when a piece
has been kinked. This is from tech sheets and installation guides. Where do
you get your info from?

And as I said, the choice of the material for potable water lines should be
dictated but the water quality and since plastics are totally inert.... what
to use should be a no brainer... well for those that are aware of water
quality and metal tubing problem issues anyway.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates.com/phpBB2/

"Chris Lewis" wrote
According to Gary Slusser :

Copper (poisoning) is very harmful to humans. Pinhole leaks are very
common
in copper tubing. The water damage can be in the tens of thousands of
dollars. Replumbing a house is very expensive also and the usual
replacement
material is PEX, or other plastic. If the water is acidic, has high DO
CO2
TDS content or anything that will cause erosion corrosion, or bacteria,
or
electrical grounds problems etc., copper is not the right choice.
http://tinyurl.com/39o8w

What Gary says is true, however, I'll point out that such problems
are rare overall, corrosion mostly being a concern in some specific
areas.

I've never heard even hinted that copper pipe can be a toxicity hazard
to humans - copper is an essential mineral (in low concentrations of
course)
certainly nothing even remotely close to the issue with lead solder.

Further, copper is _much_ more toxic to lower life forms than mammals.
Bare copper is rather more unlikely to harbor most bacteria than plastic
is.

[There's a reason that PT lumber has copper in it...]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"problems are rare overall"! Pinholes in copper tubing used for potable
water line is a huge world wide problem. I've been reading about it and
looking at maps of problem areas for years. I've also been treating water
that causes the problem for 16 years now. And water isn't the only cause.
Look at any acid rain problem area maps and you'll see some of the areas
effected.

As far as copper toxicity to humans, every state of the US and province of
Canada, along with European country has established the acceptable level of
copper in potable water. In the US the EPA and state limits are measured in
parts per Billion. They do that with lead and many other contaminates found
in potable water that are proven and serious health problems in humans;
especially the infirm and young children. Chris, are you pulling these
opinions outta yer ear, where do you get your potable water quality issues
information from?

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates.com/phpBB2/

"AJScott" wrote.
(HA HA Budys Here) wrote:

I've seen some copper joints with a greenish ick around them, sometimes
culiminating in a 3-dimensional chunk of chalky ick. What is that?


That ick comes from electroylisis, which in the plumbing world, happens
when two different types of pipes come into contact with each other, and
the results tend to show up at the joints, as you noticed. Most often
happens when someone uses tin/galvanized hangers to tie the pipes to
wood structure, or lays conduit right over the copper pipe without
sticking a piece of wood shim or cardboard or hunk of foam or whatever
to prevent direct contact between the two un-like pipes, or when someone
replaces a section of copper pipe with galvanized without using a
dilectric union, which is made of plastic, rubber and brass (brass
doesn't react with other metals, which is why brass is used for pipe
fittings).

AJS

It can be caused by soldering flux too, which if it is happening at a
fitting, it's much more likely it's flux. Brass does too corrode, just more
slowly.

Gary
Quality Water Associates
www.qualitywaterassociates.com
Gary Slusser's Bulletin Board www.qualitywaterassociates.com/phpBB2/

"HA HA Budys Here" wrote in message ...
From: "TURTLE"



"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :

The choice is your , but here is the way I think.

If you had a Mad Dog out in your front yard and you had to choose between
two
material of a stick you want to use to go out and beat
the hell out of the mad dog with . Copper or Plastic ?

I could picture the ASTM standard specifying _that_ test...

You can picture my choice.

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

Iron pipe, on the other hand...

Though, if you had time to sharpen the end of the copper pipe,
it might be useful...

Interesting criteria - have you plumbed your house with baseball
bats?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

TURTLE


I've seen some copper joints with a greenish ick around them, sometimes
culiminating in a 3-dimensional chunk of chalky ick. What is that?


This is Turtle.

It's what AJ said if it is all greenish but if you have white in it. It is a pin hole leak.

TURTLE



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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... BTW anyone can learn
to properly sweat a copper connection in 15 minutes.,

I'm glad you think so. And even if that were true, let's see
them do one that's in a cramped space surrounded by

I guess I just had a pretty darn good instructor..

Polybutylene pipes don't burst when frozen.

RB

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
PJx wrote:

I have 3/4 and 1/2 in copper running all over my attic of my 20 year
old home.. About 14 years ago, it got down to sub 10 degree weather
for a few days and busted about 6 different spots on that copper
tubing. Maybe if the copper had been thicker, it wouldn't have
happened. Maybe if it had been bust resistant plastic .....

I still don't know which I would choose.

PJ


Frozen pipes will burst no matter the material. The force of expanding
frozen water is incredible. Last winter one of our building had a bad
freeze and iron pipe split, as did the copper. I don't think plastic would
be any better.

I'm just not sure about the very long term results with plastics. I'm
talking 30 or 50 years that copper will hold up under.

IF it's the same money, go with copper. The only reaon why new houses
use plastic is because it's cheaper to buy and install and the skill
level used to install it is lower (i.e.- even a Mexican can do it).

According to TURTLE :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

I do lots. I've also worked with copper pipe in a machine shop, and done
other many non-plumbing things with copper.

I also have a home constructed by and for a plumber who thought that
copper pipe was the answer to everything. TV mast, closet rods,
driveway stakes, the works.

Got me a healthy respect for what copper is good for, and what it's
not.

Makes lousy TV mast, driveway stakes or weaponry. There's a lot of
crushed, torn, mushroomed and kinked copper pipe left behind by the original
owner to prove it.

And one or two from my efforts.

How much dog bashing with copper pipe do you do anyway?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Gary Slusser :
"Chris Lewis" wrote
According to Gary Slusser :

PEX is not harmed by freezing.

Their metal fittings may be.

Plastic plumbing (ie: all plastic irrigation systems) is a lot more
forgiving of freezing than copper or iron because it stretches somewhat.

In any type of plumbing, if the tubing expands as the water freezes, the
pressure is relieved, thereby the fittings don't break.

PE expands much more than other plastics, such as PVC, but PEX is able to
expand (its ID) more than any other type of water plumbing material without
failure. It has been tested to many thousands of expansions without failure.
Some is expanded to make its connections as opposed to crimped connections.
Heating it allows it to restore to its original shape, such as when a piece
has been kinked. This is from tech sheets and installation guides. Where do
you get your info from?

My own plumbing...

I just had a short copper segment (about 3") on a PE line rupture (missed
draining part of a irrigation line segment feeding a hose bib).

As long as the water stays liquid during expansion, then, of course plastic
pipe expansion will prevent rigid metal connectors from rupturing.

But it doesn't stay liquid during expansion.

The expansion of water during freezing takes place from the minima volume
(@4 degrees C) down and _during_ crystalization.

Much of the expansion therefore takes place while the water can't flow,
because it's at least partially "locked in place". Whether it'll
rupture the fitting depends on a lot of factors (ie: fitting length,
freeze rate, line diameter, where in the pipe it starts freezing, etc).
It won't necessarily rupture on the first cycle either (but it was the first
season for the fitting I just mentioned :-(.

Freezing lines, any lines, no matter what they're made of should be avoided.

Plastic pipe installations will certainly perform _better_ than rigid metal
pipe in the face of freezing. But repeated freeze cycling is to be
avoided especially when there's highly rigid parts in the system (metal
connectors and fittings, "device" housings - ie: pumps, whether metal
or plastic).

And as I said, the choice of the material for potable water lines should be
dictated but the water quality and since plastics are totally inert.... what
to use should be a no brainer... well for those that are aware of water
quality and metal tubing problem issues anyway.

Do you have a reference somewhere to the comment about "copper toxicity"
in plumbing?

I should also point out that plastics aren't entirely inert, as the PB
plumbing class lawsuit proved...

Don't get me wrong, I use plastic pipe whenever appropriate myself. But
pros-cons aren't entirely one-sided.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to Gary Slusser :

Chris, are you pulling these
opinions outta yer ear, where do you get your potable water quality issues

I get this for agreeing with you? Sheesh.

information from?

You may be taking my comments a little more overbroadly.

Yes, of course copper in high enough concentrations is toxic to just about
everything.

My comment that may have _seemed_ to the contrary was merely to point out
that copper toxicity varies widely through the plant and animal kingdom.
Copper dosages that would kill some lifeforms won't touch others.

For example, copper is the active ingredient in many algaecides used in
aquariums. Kills the algae, doesn't hurt the fish. Copper is _much_
more toxic to plants and invertibrates (ie: slugs and snails) than
vertibrates (ie: fish, and us).

Hence the comment that copper is a toxic substrate for most bacteria. Ie:
copper is _less_ likely to support (most types of) bacteria than plastic
is in the same conditions.

Further, copper is also an "essential mineral". There are, for example, vitamin
supplements for people that contain copper. Unlike lead, which is not.

Of course there are limits as to how much copper is permissible in potable
water. There are limits to _everything_ in potable water, toxic or not.

I pride myself in keeping up to date in these sorts of issues. Lead solder,
for example, has been a very big issue for a lot of years. The PB plumbing
class action lawsuit, Al wiring, asbestos, UFFI, CCA etc.

But I don't remember hearing/seeing anything about copper contamination being
a particularly significant concern in routine every day household plumbing.

Hence I ask you (for about the third time), do you have references for this
being a significant issue for ordinary household plumbing?

_Not_ what the limits are. I've found those (including Canada's).

But where someone says that the copper pipe in your house alone (as opposed
to the rest of the water system getting water to your house) is
a significant concern. With some real facts to back them up.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

In article ,
(Chris Lewis) wrote:

According to Gary Slusser :

Chris, are you pulling these
opinions outta yer ear, where do you get your potable water quality issues

I get this for agreeing with you? Sheesh.

information from?

You may be taking my comments a little more overbroadly.

Yes, of course copper in high enough concentrations is toxic to just about
everything.

My comment that may have _seemed_ to the contrary was merely to point out
that copper toxicity varies widely through the plant and animal kingdom.
Copper dosages that would kill some lifeforms won't touch others.

For example, copper is the active ingredient in many algaecides used in
aquariums. Kills the algae, doesn't hurt the fish. Copper is _much_
more toxic to plants and invertibrates (ie: slugs and snails) than
vertibrates (ie: fish, and us).

Hence the comment that copper is a toxic substrate for most bacteria. Ie:
copper is _less_ likely to support (most types of) bacteria than plastic
is in the same conditions.

Further, copper is also an "essential mineral". There are, for example,
vitamin
supplements for people that contain copper. Unlike lead, which is not.

Of course there are limits as to how much copper is permissible in potable
water. There are limits to _everything_ in potable water, toxic or not.

I pride myself in keeping up to date in these sorts of issues. Lead solder,
for example, has been a very big issue for a lot of years. The PB plumbing
class action lawsuit, Al wiring, asbestos, UFFI, CCA etc.

But I don't remember hearing/seeing anything about copper contamination being
a particularly significant concern in routine every day household plumbing.

Hence I ask you (for about the third time), do you have references for this
being a significant issue for ordinary household plumbing?

_Not_ what the limits are. I've found those (including Canada's).

But where someone says that the copper pipe in your house alone (as opposed
to the rest of the water system getting water to your house) is
a significant concern. With some real facts to back them up.


Since you're a guy who keeps abreast of such things, I remember a few
decades ago when PVC pipe started getting knocked because homeowners
started replacing their copper pipes with it because it was so damn
cheap, so they started using it for their faucet feeds, too. News at the
time was this was bad for drinking water lines (but OK for waste lines)
because PVC-borne chemicals leaching into the water over time. Not
enough to cause someone to drop dead on the spot or anything, but
perhaps significant over many years -- just like this argument thread
related to copper pipe. Is there anything in your current science that
suggests a similar concern for plastic pipe used now? I would imagine
the plastics industry has come a ways since the 1970s and '80s and maybe
addressed this, but what say you since you seem to follow it more
closely than the average homeowner guy who doesn't worry about such
things until some household disaster probably forces him to worry about
it?

AJS

According to Gary Slusser :
"AJScott" wrote.

That ick comes from electroylisis, which in the plumbing world, happens
when two different types of pipes come into contact with each other, and
the results tend to show up at the joints, as you noticed. Most often
happens when someone uses tin/galvanized hangers to tie the pipes to
wood structure, or lays conduit right over the copper pipe without
sticking a piece of wood shim or cardboard or hunk of foam or whatever
to prevent direct contact between the two un-like pipes, or when someone
replaces a section of copper pipe with galvanized without using a
dilectric union, which is made of plastic, rubber and brass (brass
doesn't react with other metals, which is why brass is used for pipe
fittings).

It can be caused by soldering flux too, which if it is happening at a
fitting, it's much more likely it's flux. Brass does too corrode, just more
slowly.

Galvanic corrosion is always a possibility, but only where dissimilar
metals touch.

On a straight copper fitting, it won't be galvanic.

Many corrosion products of copper are green (eg: chloride salts).
IIRC, copper sulphides/sulphates are blue.

Most of the corrosion products of lead are white - that's why white paint
used to be based on lead ....

Green suggests that it's most likely copper corroding in contact with
something containing chlorine. Ie: salt (road or table) or plumbing flux.

On plumbing, it's probably flux. On automotive wiring, here it's usually
road salt.

White can have a number of different causes, but they're mostly to do
with water on the surface interacting with the solder. Whether it be
pinhole leaks or condensation or whatever.

In particular, condensation on lead-based plumbing solder is probably the
cause of most white powder deposits. But evaporation from a pinhole
leak leaving water hardness "behind" as it evaporates is also a
possibility (in many cases the crud buildup plugs the pinhole leak).

You can see that with objects made out of lead - subjected to long-term
repeated dunkings or condensation, lead picks up a very soft whitish "fuzz".
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message ...
According to TURTLE :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :

Copper supply pipe makes a lousy club. One hit, and the pipe
is kinked. Second hit (if you're lucky the pipe hasn't kinked
at your fist), you have two shorter pieces of pipe and a ****ed
off dog.

PEX or PB pipe makes a better weapon. Hint: it won't break.

This is Turtle.

I see you don't do much plumbing do you.

I do lots. I've also worked with copper pipe in a machine shop, and done
other many non-plumbing things with copper.

I also have a home constructed by and for a plumber who thought that
copper pipe was the answer to everything. TV mast, closet rods,
driveway stakes, the works.

Got me a healthy respect for what copper is good for, and what it's
not.

Makes lousy TV mast, driveway stakes or weaponry. There's a lot of
crushed, torn, mushroomed and kinked copper pipe left behind by the original
owner to prove it.

And one or two from my efforts.

How much dog bashing with copper pipe do you do anyway?
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

You still think PVC pipe is better than copper. Well We will have a little fight with pieces of pipe and you get a 3 foot joint of
1" PVC pipe and I get a 3 foot joint of 1" Hard K or M type copper pipe. You better go look at the 1" Hard K copper pipe before you
answer.

Now you being a plumber class craftman by being able to plumb your own house is just a little short of being in the business of
plumbing or a Master Plumber.

TURTLE



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