I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

I am down to just my four PC computer servers that must be on 24/7.

We emptied shut down our chest freezer last November.

We're saving to replace our 1962-vintage HotPoint refrigerator (which is
still working fine) with a new Energy Star rated fridge.

I've converted a lot of the incandescent lighting to fluorescent.

I've stopped using space heaters.

I've stopped using the big sound system for background and monitoring
applications in my studio, replacing it with a small mag-field amplifier
that has a low quiescent power draw.

The way I see it, the biggest continuous draw are my computers and musical
instruments (synthesizers). In the past, I have looked into solar cell
panels and found the costs to be prohibitive, requiring a mortgage to pay
for. I would like to do something on a smaller scale.

If I could power even one computer by storage batteries and a solid state
sine wave inverter, charged by solar cells during the day, with enough
reserve to run the whole night throught til sun up, I would consider that a
great start. Because of budget limits ($300-500) this will be a DIY project.

A few years back, I heard about "thin film" solar cells and they were in the
experimental stages of development, but claims of efficiency completely blew
convention cells out of the water. Are these new cells on the market today
and are they as efficient as the early Popular Science articles suggested?

I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.
Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night? What I'd like to do is create a hybrid system
that is scaleable as my needs/budget grow.

Is anyone on this discussion group doing serious alternative electric energy
generation? Would love to discuss some ideas and expand my awareness of
what's available in terms of hardware.

--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

In alt.home.repair
"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

If I could power even one computer by storage batteries and a solid state
sine wave inverter, charged by solar cells during the day, with enough
reserve to run the whole night throught til sun up, I would consider that a
great start. Because of budget limits ($300-500) this will be a DIY project.

I'm not sure this is going to be easy. How many monitors are you running?
You can invest in a box that will allow you to use one monitor with all 4
servers if you haven't done that.

A few years back, I heard about "thin film" solar cells and they were in the
experimental stages of development, but claims of efficiency completely blew
convention cells out of the water. Are these new cells on the market today
and are they as efficient as the early Popular Science articles suggested?

The efficiency is HALF of current solar cells. The advantage is that they
are cheap. I just read an article about NASA planning on using them for
satellites. I don't think they are commercially available yet.

I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.

Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night?

This may work but batteries need to be replaced every few years. Don't
make the mistake of not figuring that into the cost.

You're best bet may be a fuel cell. I think they ARE commercially
available but you'll need natural gas to run it.

Is anyone on this discussion group doing serious alternative electric energy
generation?

Nah, I just pay the big bills.

In alt.home.repair
"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

If I could power even one computer by storage batteries and a solid state
sine wave inverter, charged by solar cells during the day, with enough
reserve to run the whole night throught til sun up, I would consider that a
great start. Because of budget limits ($300-500) this will be a DIY project.

I'm not sure this is going to be easy. How many monitors are you running?
You can invest in a box that will allow you to use one monitor with all 4
servers if you haven't done that.

A few years back, I heard about "thin film" solar cells and they were in the
experimental stages of development, but claims of efficiency completely blew
convention cells out of the water. Are these new cells on the market today
and are they as efficient as the early Popular Science articles suggested?

The efficiency is HALF of current solar cells. The advantage is that they
are cheap. I just read an article about NASA planning on using them for
satellites. I don't think they are commercially available yet.

I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.

Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night?

This may work but batteries need to be replaced every few years. Don't
make the mistake of not figuring that into the cost.

You're best bet may be a fuel cell. I think they ARE commercially
available but you'll need natural gas to run it.

Is anyone on this discussion group doing serious alternative electric energy
generation?

Nah, I just pay the big bills.

post in alt.energy. homepower
and to realy monitor and audit your kwh use get a Kill a Watt meter it
records time, kwh used amp, watts , hz

post in alt.energy. homepower
and to realy monitor and audit your kwh use get a Kill a Watt meter it
records time, kwh used amp, watts , hz

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:05:31 -0500, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
wrote:


I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.
Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night? What I'd like to do is create a hybrid system
that is scaleable as my needs/budget grow.


A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

.. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter. The
generator part recharges your battery. Maybe divert the radiator
coolant to supplement house heating. Of course there is no such thing
as free energy but the battery charging and waste heat recovery may
work out to be less than the bills you pay the utility company. The
only "free" heat comes from the heat pump set up.

I am not that convinced about solar cells. Grime often reduces their
efficiency and therefore output.

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 22:05:31 -0500, "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss"
wrote:


I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.
Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night? What I'd like to do is create a hybrid system
that is scaleable as my needs/budget grow.


A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

.. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter. The
generator part recharges your battery. Maybe divert the radiator
coolant to supplement house heating. Of course there is no such thing
as free energy but the battery charging and waste heat recovery may
work out to be less than the bills you pay the utility company. The
only "free" heat comes from the heat pump set up.

I am not that convinced about solar cells. Grime often reduces their
efficiency and therefore output.

If I could power even one computer by storage batteries and a solid state
sine wave inverter, charged by solar cells during the day, with enough
reserve to run the whole night throught til sun up, I would consider that
a
great start. Because of budget limits ($300-500) this will be a DIY
project.

I'm not sure this is going to be easy. How many monitors are you running?
You can invest in a box that will allow you to use one monitor with all 4
servers if you haven't done that.

I am hesitant to spend a lot of time on alternative energy if the technology
hasn't progressed a lot since I last looked into it (the late 1980s) and the
cost hasn't come down substantially.
As for the monitors, I have 2 21" monitors that go on standby after 3
minutes of non-use. One 17" monitor that is turned on once a week to change
a server configuration, then it's powered off the rest of the time.
The biggest hogs seem to be the server boxes, using about 6 times as much
energy as one 21" monitor in operating mode. The servers are drawing between
6 and 8 amperes, depending on whether they are idle or running CPU-intensive
CAD rendering (the power supplies start to hum audibly when CPU load
increases, interestingly enough!)

Any figures on how much a 42-yr-old fridge uses as compared to a modern
Energy Star rated fridge? That's another area where I suspect we are
wasting.

I've checked everything else.. the water pump is not cycling unnecessarily,
the furnace is running well, circulator not running excessively.

The big drain seems to be the Athlon servers (8 physical hard drives in
each, too) and to my advantage in the winter, they heat the 1000' square
foot studio in which they reside adequately that I don't need to use the
main heating system until it gets down to the single digit temps. But in
summer, this is a liability. I also did some tests timing the spin rate of
the demand meter and found that the two big monitors barely affect the draw
of power, but when the servers are powered up, the spin rate really gets up
there. Everything's on a 3kVA UPS, so it's easy to pull the plug and watch
the meter come to a near-standstill. That was an eye-opener. Gone are the
days of PCs that used less than 200W. :-)


A few years back, I heard about "thin film" solar cells and they were in
the
experimental stages of development, but claims of efficiency completely
blew
convention cells out of the water. Are these new cells on the market
today
and are they as efficient as the early Popular Science articles
suggested?

The efficiency is HALF of current solar cells. The advantage is that they
are cheap. I just read an article about NASA planning on using them for
satellites. I don't think they are commercially available yet.

Okay, so it's price, not performance that they offer... but depending on HOW
much cheaper they are, it might be possible to use 3-4 times as much cell
area for the same price, gaining a near 2:1 price/performance improvement.
But I don't see anything less than multithousands in cost that provides any
useful amounts of output yet.

I figure I have a constant 20A draw on that UPS (all computers together) and
if the primary is 48VDC, then I'm looking at just about 60A of load on the
batteries (figuring inverter losses of at least 20%), so to run overnight, I
need at least 600Ah of battery capacity. To match the load, I would figure I
need at least 60A of output from my solar panels at 48VDC to maintain the
charge. That's a LOT of solar cells. Add to that the fact that we're in a
heavily wooded area, with decent sun in winter, but very little in summer as
a result, so we're gonna see maybe 20% of their output in summer.


I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.

Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night?

This may work but batteries need to be replaced every few years. Don't
make the mistake of not figuring that into the cost.

Yes, though fortunately, lead acid batteries for RVs and tractors are
becoming less expensive, yet more powerful. I figure we'd see 4-5 years good
use before replacement. So a couple hundred in replacement batteries every
five years is not bad. That's 1-2 months regular electric bills.



You're best bet may be a fuel cell. I think they ARE commercially
available but you'll need natural gas to run it.

An interesting concept, but I don't want natural gas or propane canisters
anywhere near my house. Though not likely, the catastrophic results of a
mishap with gas are too great to risk.



Is anyone on this discussion group doing serious alternative electric
energy
generation?

Nah, I just pay the big bills.

We have been too, but we recently had a major increase in property taxes,
plus our electric bill nearly doubled since 2001 (despite our taking
numerous energy-reducing measures like shutting down our freezer, not using
the big sound system as a background/monitor system, getting rid of our 12
year old 21" NEC monitors and replacing with Energy Star monitors that can
power down after an idle period, banning the use of electric space heaters,
etc. We've cut our usage from 50kWH to 28kWH per month by doing this. But
the bills have done the exact opposite, increasing from a range of
$72-$140/mo to a constant $200/mo with the occasional $160 bill.
Income is flat, while other costs are rising rapidly (not to mention fuels
like No2 oil and gasolene!) So it's imperitave that we find cheaper energy
sources, lest we go back to using candles and woodstoves again. :-)


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

If I could power even one computer by storage batteries and a solid state
sine wave inverter, charged by solar cells during the day, with enough
reserve to run the whole night throught til sun up, I would consider that
a
great start. Because of budget limits ($300-500) this will be a DIY
project.

I'm not sure this is going to be easy. How many monitors are you running?
You can invest in a box that will allow you to use one monitor with all 4
servers if you haven't done that.

I am hesitant to spend a lot of time on alternative energy if the technology
hasn't progressed a lot since I last looked into it (the late 1980s) and the
cost hasn't come down substantially.
As for the monitors, I have 2 21" monitors that go on standby after 3
minutes of non-use. One 17" monitor that is turned on once a week to change
a server configuration, then it's powered off the rest of the time.
The biggest hogs seem to be the server boxes, using about 6 times as much
energy as one 21" monitor in operating mode. The servers are drawing between
6 and 8 amperes, depending on whether they are idle or running CPU-intensive
CAD rendering (the power supplies start to hum audibly when CPU load
increases, interestingly enough!)

Any figures on how much a 42-yr-old fridge uses as compared to a modern
Energy Star rated fridge? That's another area where I suspect we are
wasting.

I've checked everything else.. the water pump is not cycling unnecessarily,
the furnace is running well, circulator not running excessively.

The big drain seems to be the Athlon servers (8 physical hard drives in
each, too) and to my advantage in the winter, they heat the 1000' square
foot studio in which they reside adequately that I don't need to use the
main heating system until it gets down to the single digit temps. But in
summer, this is a liability. I also did some tests timing the spin rate of
the demand meter and found that the two big monitors barely affect the draw
of power, but when the servers are powered up, the spin rate really gets up
there. Everything's on a 3kVA UPS, so it's easy to pull the plug and watch
the meter come to a near-standstill. That was an eye-opener. Gone are the
days of PCs that used less than 200W. :-)


A few years back, I heard about "thin film" solar cells and they were in
the
experimental stages of development, but claims of efficiency completely
blew
convention cells out of the water. Are these new cells on the market
today
and are they as efficient as the early Popular Science articles
suggested?

The efficiency is HALF of current solar cells. The advantage is that they
are cheap. I just read an article about NASA planning on using them for
satellites. I don't think they are commercially available yet.

Okay, so it's price, not performance that they offer... but depending on HOW
much cheaper they are, it might be possible to use 3-4 times as much cell
area for the same price, gaining a near 2:1 price/performance improvement.
But I don't see anything less than multithousands in cost that provides any
useful amounts of output yet.

I figure I have a constant 20A draw on that UPS (all computers together) and
if the primary is 48VDC, then I'm looking at just about 60A of load on the
batteries (figuring inverter losses of at least 20%), so to run overnight, I
need at least 600Ah of battery capacity. To match the load, I would figure I
need at least 60A of output from my solar panels at 48VDC to maintain the
charge. That's a LOT of solar cells. Add to that the fact that we're in a
heavily wooded area, with decent sun in winter, but very little in summer as
a result, so we're gonna see maybe 20% of their output in summer.


I'm looking for a variety of alternative energy source ideas, even wind
power to charge batteries.

Perhaps it makes more sense to have one big 3kVA inverter and three times
the battery capacity and more cells charging by day and wind-driven
generators charging by night?

This may work but batteries need to be replaced every few years. Don't
make the mistake of not figuring that into the cost.

Yes, though fortunately, lead acid batteries for RVs and tractors are
becoming less expensive, yet more powerful. I figure we'd see 4-5 years good
use before replacement. So a couple hundred in replacement batteries every
five years is not bad. That's 1-2 months regular electric bills.



You're best bet may be a fuel cell. I think they ARE commercially
available but you'll need natural gas to run it.

An interesting concept, but I don't want natural gas or propane canisters
anywhere near my house. Though not likely, the catastrophic results of a
mishap with gas are too great to risk.



Is anyone on this discussion group doing serious alternative electric
energy
generation?

Nah, I just pay the big bills.

We have been too, but we recently had a major increase in property taxes,
plus our electric bill nearly doubled since 2001 (despite our taking
numerous energy-reducing measures like shutting down our freezer, not using
the big sound system as a background/monitor system, getting rid of our 12
year old 21" NEC monitors and replacing with Energy Star monitors that can
power down after an idle period, banning the use of electric space heaters,
etc. We've cut our usage from 50kWH to 28kWH per month by doing this. But
the bills have done the exact opposite, increasing from a range of
$72-$140/mo to a constant $200/mo with the occasional $160 bill.
Income is flat, while other costs are rising rapidly (not to mention fuels
like No2 oil and gasolene!) So it's imperitave that we find cheaper energy
sources, lest we go back to using candles and woodstoves again. :-)


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter. The
generator part recharges your battery. Maybe divert the radiator
coolant to supplement house heating. Of course there is no such thing
as free energy but the battery charging and waste heat recovery may
work out to be less than the bills you pay the utility company. The
only "free" heat comes from the heat pump set up.

I had considered a diesel genset some time back. I know in one Scandinavian
country, a lot of homes use the exact system you described above. I was
still under the impression that the cost of fueling the generator was still
higher than the cost of utility-provided electricity. However, I hadn't
thought of the heat pump angle on this. If the engine drives a compressor,
which heats the house in winter and cools it in summer, that eliminates a
lot of summer load. The coolant can probably heat a house twice our size
(3000 sq ft) if we're talking about a 40kW generator/Detroit diesel, 82HP or
so--diesels put out an awful lot of heat.
If it can run on No 2 fuel, it can share our 2000-gallon tank as a source,
but then the question is how many gallons per hour will such a genset use
(average load less than 4kW, with peaks reaching 3/4 capacity at certain
times). Since a generator runs continuously, I can see a lot of oil being
consumed in a short time, versus the furnace and hot water heaters which use
a certain amount, but only run for very brief duty cycles.

It might be possible that we're talking about intermittent generator
operation, such as to charge batteries, or when the thermostat calls for
heat (using the engine coolant to heat the baseboard radiators.) But either
way, I don't get the impression that the efficiency will compete with even
the high-priced utility power.

I am not that convinced about solar cells. Grime often reduces their
efficiency and therefore output.

Yes, that's a big factor, and even bigger is the situation of our house in a
forest, so we only get good sun in winter, but nearly none in summer.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter. The
generator part recharges your battery. Maybe divert the radiator
coolant to supplement house heating. Of course there is no such thing
as free energy but the battery charging and waste heat recovery may
work out to be less than the bills you pay the utility company. The
only "free" heat comes from the heat pump set up.

I had considered a diesel genset some time back. I know in one Scandinavian
country, a lot of homes use the exact system you described above. I was
still under the impression that the cost of fueling the generator was still
higher than the cost of utility-provided electricity. However, I hadn't
thought of the heat pump angle on this. If the engine drives a compressor,
which heats the house in winter and cools it in summer, that eliminates a
lot of summer load. The coolant can probably heat a house twice our size
(3000 sq ft) if we're talking about a 40kW generator/Detroit diesel, 82HP or
so--diesels put out an awful lot of heat.
If it can run on No 2 fuel, it can share our 2000-gallon tank as a source,
but then the question is how many gallons per hour will such a genset use
(average load less than 4kW, with peaks reaching 3/4 capacity at certain
times). Since a generator runs continuously, I can see a lot of oil being
consumed in a short time, versus the furnace and hot water heaters which use
a certain amount, but only run for very brief duty cycles.

It might be possible that we're talking about intermittent generator
operation, such as to charge batteries, or when the thermostat calls for
heat (using the engine coolant to heat the baseboard radiators.) But either
way, I don't get the impression that the efficiency will compete with even
the high-priced utility power.

I am not that convinced about solar cells. Grime often reduces their
efficiency and therefore output.

Yes, that's a big factor, and even bigger is the situation of our house in a
forest, so we only get good sun in winter, but nearly none in summer.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

In article , mweissX294
@earthlink.net (Mark & Mary Ann Weiss) says...

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

You didn't mention your heaviest draw appliance, the water heater. Is
that gas, or are you still taking showers? Convert to natural gas, and
consider a solar water heater.

Then turn your monitors off, which draw more power than the computers.
If you are actually using $200/month in computer power, the payback on
switching to Centrino technology notebooks would be pretty short. The
Pentium M is pretty energy efficient.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

In article , mweissX294
@earthlink.net (Mark & Mary Ann Weiss) says...

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

You didn't mention your heaviest draw appliance, the water heater. Is
that gas, or are you still taking showers? Convert to natural gas, and
consider a solar water heater.

Then turn your monitors off, which draw more power than the computers.
If you are actually using $200/month in computer power, the payback on
switching to Centrino technology notebooks would be pretty short. The
Pentium M is pretty energy efficient.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

Except for the adventure of it all, I think you'd be well advised to
get a meter and find out exactly how much your computers [and other
circuits] are using before spending a lot of time & money on
alternatives.

"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

And have you eliminated any possible wiring problems?

-snip-

We're saving to replace our 1962-vintage HotPoint refrigerator (which is
still working fine) with a new Energy Star rated fridge.

Just as a data-point. I paid $170 for 1494 KWH [$.113/KWH] last
month.

I have recently replaced a 10 yr old, energy star rated,
refrigerator/freezer with a weak compressor. When I did that my
bill dropped 2-300KWH from last year. [$22-33/month]

I'd wager that if you're paying anywhere close to a dime a KWH the
payback on your old frig will be less than a couple years.


I've converted a lot of the incandescent lighting to fluorescent.

I've stopped using space heaters.

-snip-

How about hair dryers, toaster, electric stove. . . .

Have you had your utility company come out and do a survey? I had
one done once and it must have been the surveyors first day because it
was a waste of both our times-- but I've talked to other folks who
were helped by the survey & eliminated an electricity hog that they
never would have thought of.

Jim

Except for the adventure of it all, I think you'd be well advised to
get a meter and find out exactly how much your computers [and other
circuits] are using before spending a lot of time & money on
alternatives.

"Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

And have you eliminated any possible wiring problems?

-snip-

We're saving to replace our 1962-vintage HotPoint refrigerator (which is
still working fine) with a new Energy Star rated fridge.

Just as a data-point. I paid $170 for 1494 KWH [$.113/KWH] last
month.

I have recently replaced a 10 yr old, energy star rated,
refrigerator/freezer with a weak compressor. When I did that my
bill dropped 2-300KWH from last year. [$22-33/month]

I'd wager that if you're paying anywhere close to a dime a KWH the
payback on your old frig will be less than a couple years.


I've converted a lot of the incandescent lighting to fluorescent.

I've stopped using space heaters.

-snip-

How about hair dryers, toaster, electric stove. . . .

Have you had your utility company come out and do a survey? I had
one done once and it must have been the surveyors first day because it
was a waste of both our times-- but I've talked to other folks who
were helped by the survey & eliminated an electricity hog that they
never would have thought of.

Jim

You say you use 28 kwh but im sure you mean 2800 kwh and at 200.00 a
month you would be paying apx .07 c US for electricity. Alot of juice.
First get a Kill- A - Watt meter at Radio Shack. and do an audit,
Refrigerators do go bad and can consume alot more than rated, ex. low on
freon. A short in your service can occur giving a constant drain. And
you say that that your bills are up 250% ?
2800 kwh x .07 = 196.00 US
5000kwh x .02 = 100.00 US Well unless your rates went up 250%
which i dought you have other problems. A bad meter or more likely bad
apliances
A new energy star frige can cost 35.00 yearly to run for a Sears 19 cu
ft . at .08 kwh US. You are paying maybe .07 kwh.
At the rated 417 KWH x .07 = 29.19 yearly or 2.43 monthly. A large
side by side can cost 20 a month if its 15 yrs old. Side by sides are
less efficient. I just tested my 19 cu ft Sears on a kill- a- watt and
the monthly figure was 21 KWH almost half the Gov test, or for a cost
of 1.30 a month. Quite a savings over 20 a month. But its winter,
cooler in the house, and the test is a 4 person test.
Generators at your KWH cost will cost 5x to 7 x to produce
electricity, Dont forget Gen cost, interest lost, depreciaton- gen
life, and maintenance.
At alt. Energy . Homepower there are alot of Off Grid people who know
systems.

You say you use 28 kwh but im sure you mean 2800 kwh and at 200.00 a
month you would be paying apx .07 c US for electricity. Alot of juice.
First get a Kill- A - Watt meter at Radio Shack. and do an audit,
Refrigerators do go bad and can consume alot more than rated, ex. low on
freon. A short in your service can occur giving a constant drain. And
you say that that your bills are up 250% ?
2800 kwh x .07 = 196.00 US
5000kwh x .02 = 100.00 US Well unless your rates went up 250%
which i dought you have other problems. A bad meter or more likely bad
apliances
A new energy star frige can cost 35.00 yearly to run for a Sears 19 cu
ft . at .08 kwh US. You are paying maybe .07 kwh.
At the rated 417 KWH x .07 = 29.19 yearly or 2.43 monthly. A large
side by side can cost 20 a month if its 15 yrs old. Side by sides are
less efficient. I just tested my 19 cu ft Sears on a kill- a- watt and
the monthly figure was 21 KWH almost half the Gov test, or for a cost
of 1.30 a month. Quite a savings over 20 a month. But its winter,
cooler in the house, and the test is a 4 person test.
Generators at your KWH cost will cost 5x to 7 x to produce
electricity, Dont forget Gen cost, interest lost, depreciaton- gen
life, and maintenance.
At alt. Energy . Homepower there are alot of Off Grid people who know
systems.

One of the biggest users is an electric hot water heater. You can reduce
this by placing it on a timer and taking showers every other day rather
than every day. (get a 7 day 240 V timer - link below)

So on "shower days", set it to make enough hot water for your shower and to
go on (then off) just before your shower. Only warm (not hot) water will be
left in the tank after your shower and this will be sufficient for hand
washing for the entire day. (If you have a bunch of teenage girls in your
home, this will of course not work.)

On "non-shower days", set it to run for about 5 minutes in the morning.
This will make warm (not hot) water for the days hand washing.

Basically you are producing hot water for showers, but only warm water for
everything else. If your hot water is 30% of your bill and you are cutting
down on water heating by half or more, this could be a BIG savings on your
electric bill.

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

Heating/air conditioning costs can be reduced by adding insulation and
replacing your windows with energy star double pane windows. Close off
rooms which are not used, install heavy drapes on windows.

Also post to misc.consumers.frugal-living (This group can give you all
sorts of money saving ideas...)

One model of water heater timer...
(Search for water heater timer)
http://www.energyautomationinc.com/ti040.shtml

Energy Star Web Site...
http://www.energystar.gov/

One of the biggest users is an electric hot water heater. You can reduce
this by placing it on a timer and taking showers every other day rather
than every day. (get a 7 day 240 V timer - link below)

So on "shower days", set it to make enough hot water for your shower and to
go on (then off) just before your shower. Only warm (not hot) water will be
left in the tank after your shower and this will be sufficient for hand
washing for the entire day. (If you have a bunch of teenage girls in your
home, this will of course not work.)

On "non-shower days", set it to run for about 5 minutes in the morning.
This will make warm (not hot) water for the days hand washing.

Basically you are producing hot water for showers, but only warm water for
everything else. If your hot water is 30% of your bill and you are cutting
down on water heating by half or more, this could be a BIG savings on your
electric bill.

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

Heating/air conditioning costs can be reduced by adding insulation and
replacing your windows with energy star double pane windows. Close off
rooms which are not used, install heavy drapes on windows.

Also post to misc.consumers.frugal-living (This group can give you all
sorts of money saving ideas...)

One model of water heater timer...
(Search for water heater timer)
http://www.energyautomationinc.com/ti040.shtml

Energy Star Web Site...
http://www.energystar.gov/

In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

In article , (Bruce) wrote:
In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

You're probably right about the cost comparison -- but why would it be against
the law?

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

In article , (Bruce) wrote:
In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

You're probably right about the cost comparison -- but why would it be against
the law?

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

(Bruce) wrote:

In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

Where might that be against the law? [It may well be, I just haven't
ever heard of a law against generators.]

In my part of the world, the northeast US, heat pumps are pretty much
useless in the winter months-- but if that guy can tell me about a
diesel generator that can produce electricity cheaper than I can buy
it from Niagara Mohawk-- I'd like to sell it to my power company.

Jim

(Bruce) wrote:

In alt.home.repair
Klm wrote:

A home alternative energy installation is often not worth the
investment. But a possible formula may be

. A diesel fueled electrical generator to run a whole house heat pump
- cools the house in summer and helps to heat it in winter.

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

Where might that be against the law? [It may well be, I just haven't
ever heard of a law against generators.]

In my part of the world, the northeast US, heat pumps are pretty much
useless in the winter months-- but if that guy can tell me about a
diesel generator that can produce electricity cheaper than I can buy
it from Niagara Mohawk-- I'd like to sell it to my power company.

Jim

In alt.home.repair
(Doug Miller) wrote:

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

You're probably right about the cost comparison -- but why would it be against
the law?

I don't think it should, but it is. You are not allowed to compete with
the utilities. That may have changed since deregulation, but I don't think
so. Secondarily, for pollution, noise and safety.

In alt.home.repair
(Doug Miller) wrote:

This is probably against the law and doubtfully cheaper than buying from
the utility.

You're probably right about the cost comparison -- but why would it be against
the law?

I don't think it should, but it is. You are not allowed to compete with
the utilities. That may have changed since deregulation, but I don't think
so. Secondarily, for pollution, noise and safety.

(Bruce) wrote:

-snip-
I don't think it should, but it is. You are not allowed to compete with
the utilities. That may have changed since deregulation, but I don't think
so. Secondarily, for pollution, noise and safety.


TWIAVBP -- Where do you live? In NY, we not only *can* make
electricity, the power company has to buy it from us if we have extra.
[I'm pretty sure it's been that way for at least 25 years.]

See http://www.akeena.net/solar_energy_b...omepageny.html for
one way it is possible. [not necessarily a good idea-- just
possible.]

Jim

(Bruce) wrote:

-snip-
I don't think it should, but it is. You are not allowed to compete with
the utilities. That may have changed since deregulation, but I don't think
so. Secondarily, for pollution, noise and safety.


TWIAVBP -- Where do you live? In NY, we not only *can* make
electricity, the power company has to buy it from us if we have extra.
[I'm pretty sure it's been that way for at least 25 years.]

See http://www.akeena.net/solar_energy_b...omepageny.html for
one way it is possible. [not necessarily a good idea-- just
possible.]

Jim

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have
stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

You didn't mention your heaviest draw appliance, the water heater. Is
that gas, or are you still taking showers? Convert to natural gas, and
consider a solar water heater.

All heating systems in the house are oil-fired, including the water heater.


Then turn your monitors off, which draw more power than the computers.
If you are actually using $200/month in computer power, the payback on
switching to Centrino technology notebooks would be pretty short. The
Pentium M is pretty energy efficient.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

The monitors each draw about 1.5A when running (not standby). The PC servers
draw close to 8A each when number-crunching.
Since the computers are relatively new, highly customized and configured
with a lot of proprietary hardware and software, we're looking at a 5-year
amortization on the costs, and it will be a few years before we replace them
with newer technology. I used to think it was solely the Athlon CPUs that
were drawing most of the juice, but between our four PCs, there are 22 hard
drives that are running at all times. We do use laptops too, but only for
limited use, mostly portable non-realtime applications--their hard disc
systems are far too slow. The servers are using RAID discs for sustained
very high throughput.

We're pretty much stuck with the loads, so we are looking at finding cheaper
ways to power them.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

I'm looking at $200/mo electric bills on average, even though I have
stopped
using many heavy-draw appliances.

You didn't mention your heaviest draw appliance, the water heater. Is
that gas, or are you still taking showers? Convert to natural gas, and
consider a solar water heater.

All heating systems in the house are oil-fired, including the water heater.


Then turn your monitors off, which draw more power than the computers.
If you are actually using $200/month in computer power, the payback on
switching to Centrino technology notebooks would be pretty short. The
Pentium M is pretty energy efficient.

--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc

The monitors each draw about 1.5A when running (not standby). The PC servers
draw close to 8A each when number-crunching.
Since the computers are relatively new, highly customized and configured
with a lot of proprietary hardware and software, we're looking at a 5-year
amortization on the costs, and it will be a few years before we replace them
with newer technology. I used to think it was solely the Athlon CPUs that
were drawing most of the juice, but between our four PCs, there are 22 hard
drives that are running at all times. We do use laptops too, but only for
limited use, mostly portable non-realtime applications--their hard disc
systems are far too slow. The servers are using RAID discs for sustained
very high throughput.

We're pretty much stuck with the loads, so we are looking at finding cheaper
ways to power them.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

One of the biggest users is an electric hot water heater. You can reduce
this by placing it on a timer and taking showers every other day rather
than every day. (get a 7 day 240 V timer - link below)

We're oil-fired hot water and oil-fired furnace here. N/A.


Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

That's true, but the problem is I have a constant 20A draw from four
computer servers running 24/7.


Heating/air conditioning costs can be reduced by adding insulation and
replacing your windows with energy star double pane windows. Close off
rooms which are not used, install heavy drapes on windows.

The house is super-insulated. 6" wall studs, 1" foam, + 6" fiberglass, +
aluminum foil under the wallboard. Ceilings have 12" joists, 10" fiberglass
and 1" foam. Temp drop is very slow, even at -10ºF. The problem is our
electric bill, mostly, due to these computers. I'd like to find alternative
sources of energy for them.


Also post to misc.consumers.frugal-living (This group can give you all
sorts of money saving ideas...)

One model of water heater timer...
(Search for water heater timer)
http://www.energyautomationinc.com/ti040.shtml

Energy Star Web Site...
http://www.energystar.gov/


Good info! I'll peruse these tomorrow.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

One of the biggest users is an electric hot water heater. You can reduce
this by placing it on a timer and taking showers every other day rather
than every day. (get a 7 day 240 V timer - link below)

We're oil-fired hot water and oil-fired furnace here. N/A.


Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

That's true, but the problem is I have a constant 20A draw from four
computer servers running 24/7.


Heating/air conditioning costs can be reduced by adding insulation and
replacing your windows with energy star double pane windows. Close off
rooms which are not used, install heavy drapes on windows.

The house is super-insulated. 6" wall studs, 1" foam, + 6" fiberglass, +
aluminum foil under the wallboard. Ceilings have 12" joists, 10" fiberglass
and 1" foam. Temp drop is very slow, even at -10ºF. The problem is our
electric bill, mostly, due to these computers. I'd like to find alternative
sources of energy for them.


Also post to misc.consumers.frugal-living (This group can give you all
sorts of money saving ideas...)

One model of water heater timer...
(Search for water heater timer)
http://www.energyautomationinc.com/ti040.shtml

Energy Star Web Site...
http://www.energystar.gov/


Good info! I'll peruse these tomorrow.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

Hi,
Considered geothermal energy source under your house? Need to drill
holes deep down.
Tony


I had briefly looked into a 'system' proposed by a fellow named Dennis Lee,
who purported to have a 'free energy' system that used geothermal energy in
conjunction with freeon flowing through coils to generate turbine movement
and hence operate a generator. He claimed to offer free installations for a
limited time of these units.
I also read that he was arrested for fraud.
I watched a video that his people produced, and although some of the
'theory' looked almost plausible, the guy didn't strike me as an inventor,
but more of a marketeer/shyster.
Right now, I expect to find solar cells and wind power to be closest to
realistic, unless there have been significant advances in other technologies
that I'm not current on.

But during these ultra-cold winter nights, I wish I could block the cold air
from flowing down the chimney and into my furnace and hot water heater and
cooling them down prematurely. I read that as much as 20% of the
steady-state operating heat goes up the chimney in modern furnaces. That's
significant. A lot more has to be recovered after the furnace has been off
for a while. Ours comes on about every 2 hours on very cold nights, so in
that time, most of the boiler energy has gone up the chimney and it has to
heat up from almost cold. An automatic stack damper would be a big help
there.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

Hi,
Considered geothermal energy source under your house? Need to drill
holes deep down.
Tony


I had briefly looked into a 'system' proposed by a fellow named Dennis Lee,
who purported to have a 'free energy' system that used geothermal energy in
conjunction with freeon flowing through coils to generate turbine movement
and hence operate a generator. He claimed to offer free installations for a
limited time of these units.
I also read that he was arrested for fraud.
I watched a video that his people produced, and although some of the
'theory' looked almost plausible, the guy didn't strike me as an inventor,
but more of a marketeer/shyster.
Right now, I expect to find solar cells and wind power to be closest to
realistic, unless there have been significant advances in other technologies
that I'm not current on.

But during these ultra-cold winter nights, I wish I could block the cold air
from flowing down the chimney and into my furnace and hot water heater and
cooling them down prematurely. I read that as much as 20% of the
steady-state operating heat goes up the chimney in modern furnaces. That's
significant. A lot more has to be recovered after the furnace has been off
for a while. Ours comes on about every 2 hours on very cold nights, so in
that time, most of the boiler energy has gone up the chimney and it has to
heat up from almost cold. An automatic stack damper would be a big help
there.


--
Take care,

Mark & Mary Ann Weiss

VIDEO PRODUCTION . FILM SCANNING . AUDIO RESTORATION
Hear my Kurzweil Creations at: http://www.dv-clips.com/theater.htm
Business sites at:
www.dv-clips.com
www.mwcomms.com
www.adventuresinanimemusic.com
-

In article , "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

That's true, but the problem is I have a constant 20A draw from four
computer servers running 24/7.


Consider:

20A * 120V = 2400W
2400W * 24 hr/day = 57600 watt-hours/day = 57.6 KwH/day
57.6 KwH/day * $0.08/KwH (estimated) * 30 days/month = $138.24/month

I believe you said in your original post that your electric bills are in the
range of $200-300 monthly. Thus, the computers account for roughly half to
two-thirds of your total cost. And *that* means that to make even a twenty
percent reduction in your bill, you need to (a) reduce your electricity
demands, exclusive of the computers, by roughly forty to seventy percent --
which is going to be very difficult -- or (b) turn off the computers.

Bottom line: you're doing this to yourself. If you're trying to run a business
out of your home, either move to a commercial building so you get commercial
rates, or quit complaining about paying residential rates for your
electricity.

If you're *not* running a business... then shut off some of the machines.
*Nobody* needs four servers 24/7 for personal use.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

In article , "Mark & Mary Ann Weiss" wrote:

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

That's true, but the problem is I have a constant 20A draw from four
computer servers running 24/7.


Consider:

20A * 120V = 2400W
2400W * 24 hr/day = 57600 watt-hours/day = 57.6 KwH/day
57.6 KwH/day * $0.08/KwH (estimated) * 30 days/month = $138.24/month

I believe you said in your original post that your electric bills are in the
range of $200-300 monthly. Thus, the computers account for roughly half to
two-thirds of your total cost. And *that* means that to make even a twenty
percent reduction in your bill, you need to (a) reduce your electricity
demands, exclusive of the computers, by roughly forty to seventy percent --
which is going to be very difficult -- or (b) turn off the computers.

Bottom line: you're doing this to yourself. If you're trying to run a business
out of your home, either move to a commercial building so you get commercial
rates, or quit complaining about paying residential rates for your
electricity.

If you're *not* running a business... then shut off some of the machines.
*Nobody* needs four servers 24/7 for personal use.

--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

Im curious.... what kind of switch? A manual one....
or a timer based one?

Also place electronic stuff like TV, microwave, stereo, etc. on a switch.
These things use electricity when not on. Turn off power to these things
when not in use.

Im curious.... what kind of switch? A manual one....
or a timer based one?

In article , mweissX294
@earthlink.net says...
~
~ Hi,
~ Considered geothermal energy source under your house? Need to drill
~ holes deep down.
~ Tony
~
~
~ I had briefly looked into a 'system' proposed by a fellow named Dennis Lee,
~ who purported to have a 'free energy' system that used geothermal energy in
~ conjunction with freeon flowing through coils to generate turbine movement
~ and hence operate a generator. He claimed to offer free installations for a
~ limited time of these units.
~ I also read that he was arrested for fraud.
~ I watched a video that his people produced, and although some of the
~ 'theory' looked almost plausible, the guy didn't strike me as an inventor,
~ but more of a marketeer/shyster.
~ Right now, I expect to find solar cells and wind power to be closest to
~ realistic, unless there have been significant advances in other technologies
~ that I'm not current on.

I think you should read up on earth-source heat exchangers (often
erroneously called "geothermal"). They aren't inexpensive to
install, but they're the most practical "sustainable" heating source.

There are dozens of websites of interest, including many government
websites in the US and Canada that describe how they work and what
efficiencies you can gain with them. They are powered by
electricity, but use roughly 25% as much electricity to heat and cool
your home as using electrical heating. You could also consider an
air-source heat pump, but they aren't as efficient. However, the
payback period is shorter since they're not much more expensive than
regular heating systems.

Rick