Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

John G posted for all of us...

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get
down to this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?

John, this is typical of this group. The posters want everyone else to do
their work for them, then they argue and don't follow the information given
and most times the result is never known. Follow along in the posts and you
will see the offenders...

--
Tekkie

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)
Unless there is no 120 volt component to the device in which case
there IS no neutral.

On 12/29/2015 1:18 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)
Unless there is no 120 volt component to the device in which case
there IS no neutral.

In either case, the white should be "taped black" in the panel
and at the other end(s) of the branch circuit.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:57:55 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 1:18 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)
Unless there is no 120 volt component to the device in which case
there IS no neutral.

In either case, the white should be "taped black" in the panel
and at the other end(s) of the branch circuit.
It should be, but in proactice, at leat for 240 volt heating
circuits, it virtually never is - particularly if they are using
coloured jacket cabling

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 2:01:18 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:


The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

It's actually the reverse. The neutral also serves as a ground for
old circuits installed in the days when it was permitted, prior to a
separate ground being required. A neutral was always required to
support a circuit with both 240V and 120V loads, it can't physically
work without it. The concept of requiring grounds came later.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 09:54:59 -0800 (PST), John G
wrote:

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

I was willing to give him a huss on that. They are probably
"classified" for that panel.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

That is why I asked about the feeder size.


The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

There is plenty of 240v shop equipment that doesn't use a neutral.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 13:57:55 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

In either case, the white should be "taped black" in the panel
and at the other end(s) of the branch circuit.

A fairly recent change. (at least for old guys like me)

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:57:18 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

It's actually the reverse. The neutral also serves as a ground for
old circuits installed in the days when it was permitted, prior to a
separate ground being required. A neutral was always required to
support a circuit with both 240V and 120V loads, it can't physically
work without it. The concept of requiring grounds came later.

Actually only for ranges and clothes dryers for the 40 years or so
that this exception existed but it was still never legal from a sub
panel ... for exactly the reason we are discussing.
The neutral is 5 or 6 volts above ground.
Do you really want to be laying on a concrete slab with a drill that
is putting 5 volts AC in your sweaty hands?
That is why I would really want to see a ground rod or two.
It is going to be a tingle voltage that may or may not trip the GFCI
.... if he had any.

Then we could open the "other metallic path" thing if we are still
using the old 3 wire feeder exception.

On 12/29/2015 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

That is why I asked about the feeder size.

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

There is plenty of 240v shop equipment that doesn't use a neutral.

You don't know that looking *in* the panel. Put a cover on the terminal
Jbox (because you are no longer using that piece of gear) and the
next guy coming along opens it to find white (untaped), black and
copper. Do you think he's going to assume the white is really
a hot and this is a 220V feed? Or, that it's yet another 110V, 20A
circuit?

On 12/28/2015 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:24:50 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:51:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 12/28/2015 4:04 PM, John G wrote:
Don Y has brought this to us :

Do the *easy* things, first.
- measure at the *main* panel
- measure at the subpanel (already done)
- open the disconnect at the subpanel and remeasure at the main panel
Assuming this isolates the problem to the subpanel:
- remove individual loads from the subpanel (open breakers) and measure

Take good notes.

You should be able to diagnose the problem just from these observations.

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get
down to
this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?

I am basically lazy. : As I think most folks are. I would rather do
the easy things -- take data and THINK about the problem -- than run
around "try this", etc.

Occam's Razor: chances are, it's something in the subpanel/workshop
and NOT something with the utility -- *or* the main panel (not
counting the subpanel tie-in).

Eliminate the workshop and see if the problem persists. If not, tells
you the problem is *related* to the workshop (though may still manifest
in something else).


Often it is easy to determin if it is a neutral problem. Meter both sides
of the AC. Then with almost everything cut off, plug in a large load such
as a bathroom heat or hair dryer to one side. If the unloaded side changes
voltage it is almost sure to be a neutral problem somewhere.

YOu can do this in the workshop, then move to the house.
If workshop and not house, it is probably your problem, if also at the house
and on the main wires, if the neutral is not loose at the box, probably the
power company problem



Generally speaking, checking at the service disconnect is about as far
as you can go because everything on the line side of that is sealed by
the PoCo. They will generally fix anything on that side for free, just
to keep you out of the metering equipment. Obviously if they determine
it is on the line side of the service point (typically the crimps on
the drop or the transformer connection on a service lateral), it is
their baby anyway.

Okay, to the few who have stayed on subject...first I checked most of
the outlets in the house and they all read in the 122v range. I then
opened the house breaker box and both sides coming in read 122.7v. I
also checked the voltage coming out of the breaker that goes to the shop
and they also read 122.7. I also tightened all three wires down that go
to the shop (actually none were loose). I THINK that this tells me that
the problem is in the shop but we are currently in the middle of a
rain/sleet/snow storm here in the Midwest so I am no going back out to
the shop to look in that box again tonight. In fact, we were totally
without power part of this afternoon...the ice probably took a limb down
over a line.

Thanks for all of the help and let me know if you agree that the problem
is in the shop.

You have determined that it is in the neutral in the feeder. It might
even be worth disconnecting it AFTER YOU TRIP THE BREAKER for that
feeder and examine both ends of the wire for corrosion etc.
Then examine the lug and reinstall it.

I also did not notice a ground rod connection at the shop end. If you
are setting the "way back" machine to a time when 3 wire feeders to
additional buildings, you were still required to drive a rod. With
that much of a voltage drop in your neutral, you are putting voltage
on the case of all of your equipment.
A ground electrode will mitigate that a bit.
If you really want to address the violations you can also separate the
wires on the ground bus (one for each screw) you have plenty of
spares. You can double or triple up the grounds in most panels but not
the neutrals. They need their own screw.
What size wire is that feeder?


Okay, the feeder wire is #2 if I am reading the writing on the wire
correctly.

I shut all of the power down and loosened the neutral in the main box in
the house and then reset it and tightened it up very tight. It did not
appear to be loose or corroded before or after I did this. I also
checked once again that the the hots coming out of the 100 amp breaker
in the main box in the house were tight and they were.

Now to the box in the shop. I attempted to tighten the hots but they
were already as tight as they would go. I then loosened the neutral,
checked for corrosion (there was none) and re-tightened it.

After doing the above I checked the voltages again and had the same 125
and 117 as I originally did so no joy.

Then I shut all of the breakers off in the shop panel including the main
100 amp breaker and checked the voltages again. Now things had changed
and I had 122v and 120v!

To this layman it appears that it is just difference in the load on the
two legs that is making the difference but now that the difference is
down to two (2) volts I think that is close enough. I suppose that I
could move some of the load from one leg to the other and even things
out somewhat. Of course it would depend upon what was turned on at any
given time.

Thanks to all who helped,

Don

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:53:34 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

That is why I asked about the feeder size.

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

There is plenty of 240v shop equipment that doesn't use a neutral.

You don't know that looking *in* the panel. Put a cover on the terminal
Jbox (because you are no longer using that piece of gear) and the
next guy coming along opens it to find white (untaped), black and
copper. Do you think he's going to assume the white is really
a hot and this is a 220V feed? Or, that it's yet another 110V, 20A
circuit?
When you decommission a 2 wire 240 volt circuit that does not use a
240 volt specific outlet you ALWAYS disconnect it at the breaker. That
way there is no chance of ambiguity.
A good idea on any "dedicated" circuit too. If there is nothing else
on the circuit don't just wire-nut it off in the jbox. Either
disconnect, or better yet label and lock out the breaker involved.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:53:01 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:24:50 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:51:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 12/28/2015 4:04 PM, John G wrote:
Don Y has brought this to us :

Do the *easy* things, first.
- measure at the *main* panel
- measure at the subpanel (already done)
- open the disconnect at the subpanel and remeasure at the main panel
Assuming this isolates the problem to the subpanel:
- remove individual loads from the subpanel (open breakers) and measure

Take good notes.

You should be able to diagnose the problem just from these observations.

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get
down to
this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?

I am basically lazy. : As I think most folks are. I would rather do
the easy things -- take data and THINK about the problem -- than run
around "try this", etc.

Occam's Razor: chances are, it's something in the subpanel/workshop
and NOT something with the utility -- *or* the main panel (not
counting the subpanel tie-in).

Eliminate the workshop and see if the problem persists. If not, tells
you the problem is *related* to the workshop (though may still manifest
in something else).


Often it is easy to determin if it is a neutral problem. Meter both sides
of the AC. Then with almost everything cut off, plug in a large load such
as a bathroom heat or hair dryer to one side. If the unloaded side changes
voltage it is almost sure to be a neutral problem somewhere.

YOu can do this in the workshop, then move to the house.
If workshop and not house, it is probably your problem, if also at the house
and on the main wires, if the neutral is not loose at the box, probably the
power company problem



Generally speaking, checking at the service disconnect is about as far
as you can go because everything on the line side of that is sealed by
the PoCo. They will generally fix anything on that side for free, just
to keep you out of the metering equipment. Obviously if they determine
it is on the line side of the service point (typically the crimps on
the drop or the transformer connection on a service lateral), it is
their baby anyway.

Okay, to the few who have stayed on subject...first I checked most of
the outlets in the house and they all read in the 122v range. I then
opened the house breaker box and both sides coming in read 122.7v. I
also checked the voltage coming out of the breaker that goes to the shop
and they also read 122.7. I also tightened all three wires down that go
to the shop (actually none were loose). I THINK that this tells me that
the problem is in the shop but we are currently in the middle of a
rain/sleet/snow storm here in the Midwest so I am no going back out to
the shop to look in that box again tonight. In fact, we were totally
without power part of this afternoon...the ice probably took a limb down
over a line.

Thanks for all of the help and let me know if you agree that the problem
is in the shop.

You have determined that it is in the neutral in the feeder. It might
even be worth disconnecting it AFTER YOU TRIP THE BREAKER for that
feeder and examine both ends of the wire for corrosion etc.
Then examine the lug and reinstall it.

I also did not notice a ground rod connection at the shop end. If you
are setting the "way back" machine to a time when 3 wire feeders to
additional buildings, you were still required to drive a rod. With
that much of a voltage drop in your neutral, you are putting voltage
on the case of all of your equipment.
A ground electrode will mitigate that a bit.
If you really want to address the violations you can also separate the
wires on the ground bus (one for each screw) you have plenty of
spares. You can double or triple up the grounds in most panels but not
the neutrals. They need their own screw.
What size wire is that feeder?


Okay, the feeder wire is #2 if I am reading the writing on the wire
correctly.

I shut all of the power down and loosened the neutral in the main box in
the house and then reset it and tightened it up very tight. It did not
appear to be loose or corroded before or after I did this. I also
checked once again that the the hots coming out of the 100 amp breaker
in the main box in the house were tight and they were.

Now to the box in the shop. I attempted to tighten the hots but they
were already as tight as they would go. I then loosened the neutral,
checked for corrosion (there was none) and re-tightened it.

After doing the above I checked the voltages again and had the same 125
and 117 as I originally did so no joy.

Then I shut all of the breakers off in the shop panel including the main
100 amp breaker and checked the voltages again. Now things had changed
and I had 122v and 120v!

To this layman it appears that it is just difference in the load on the
two legs that is making the difference but now that the difference is
down to two (2) volts I think that is close enough. I suppose that I
could move some of the load from one leg to the other and even things
out somewhat. Of course it would depend upon what was turned on at any
given time.

Thanks to all who helped,

Don
If you have 2 volts difference with no load, and 18 volts with a
load, you DO have a neutral problem - The fact that the high side
comes down and the low side goes up with no load proves it HAS to be a
neutral problem. There is no other possibility. How long is the feed
from the main to the sub? What kind of cable did you use? How deep is
it burried? Is it direct burial cable or in a conduit? Is it running
under a driveway?

Something is still not adding up. Also, do you have a driven
ground??? If not, get one in there and test again.

On 12/29/2015 8:40 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:53:01 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:24:50 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:51:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 12/28/2015 4:04 PM, John G wrote:
Don Y has brought this to us :

Do the *easy* things, first.
- measure at the *main* panel
- measure at the subpanel (already done)
- open the disconnect at the subpanel and remeasure at the main panel
Assuming this isolates the problem to the subpanel:
- remove individual loads from the subpanel (open breakers) and measure

Take good notes.

You should be able to diagnose the problem just from these observations.

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get
down to
this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?

I am basically lazy. : As I think most folks are. I would rather do
the easy things -- take data and THINK about the problem -- than run
around "try this", etc.

Occam's Razor: chances are, it's something in the subpanel/workshop
and NOT something with the utility -- *or* the main panel (not
counting the subpanel tie-in).

Eliminate the workshop and see if the problem persists. If not, tells
you the problem is *related* to the workshop (though may still manifest
in something else).


Often it is easy to determin if it is a neutral problem. Meter both sides
of the AC. Then with almost everything cut off, plug in a large load such
as a bathroom heat or hair dryer to one side. If the unloaded side changes
voltage it is almost sure to be a neutral problem somewhere.

YOu can do this in the workshop, then move to the house.
If workshop and not house, it is probably your problem, if also at the house
and on the main wires, if the neutral is not loose at the box, probably the
power company problem



Generally speaking, checking at the service disconnect is about as far
as you can go because everything on the line side of that is sealed by
the PoCo. They will generally fix anything on that side for free, just
to keep you out of the metering equipment. Obviously if they determine
it is on the line side of the service point (typically the crimps on
the drop or the transformer connection on a service lateral), it is
their baby anyway.

Okay, to the few who have stayed on subject...first I checked most of
the outlets in the house and they all read in the 122v range. I then
opened the house breaker box and both sides coming in read 122.7v. I
also checked the voltage coming out of the breaker that goes to the shop
and they also read 122.7. I also tightened all three wires down that go
to the shop (actually none were loose). I THINK that this tells me that
the problem is in the shop but we are currently in the middle of a
rain/sleet/snow storm here in the Midwest so I am no going back out to
the shop to look in that box again tonight. In fact, we were totally
without power part of this afternoon...the ice probably took a limb down
over a line.

Thanks for all of the help and let me know if you agree that the problem
is in the shop.

You have determined that it is in the neutral in the feeder. It might
even be worth disconnecting it AFTER YOU TRIP THE BREAKER for that
feeder and examine both ends of the wire for corrosion etc.
Then examine the lug and reinstall it.

I also did not notice a ground rod connection at the shop end. If you
are setting the "way back" machine to a time when 3 wire feeders to
additional buildings, you were still required to drive a rod. With
that much of a voltage drop in your neutral, you are putting voltage
on the case of all of your equipment.
A ground electrode will mitigate that a bit.
If you really want to address the violations you can also separate the
wires on the ground bus (one for each screw) you have plenty of
spares. You can double or triple up the grounds in most panels but not
the neutrals. They need their own screw.
What size wire is that feeder?


Okay, the feeder wire is #2 if I am reading the writing on the wire
correctly.

I shut all of the power down and loosened the neutral in the main box in
the house and then reset it and tightened it up very tight. It did not
appear to be loose or corroded before or after I did this. I also
checked once again that the the hots coming out of the 100 amp breaker
in the main box in the house were tight and they were.

Now to the box in the shop. I attempted to tighten the hots but they
were already as tight as they would go. I then loosened the neutral,
checked for corrosion (there was none) and re-tightened it.

After doing the above I checked the voltages again and had the same 125
and 117 as I originally did so no joy.

Then I shut all of the breakers off in the shop panel including the main
100 amp breaker and checked the voltages again. Now things had changed
and I had 122v and 120v!

To this layman it appears that it is just difference in the load on the
two legs that is making the difference but now that the difference is
down to two (2) volts I think that is close enough. I suppose that I
could move some of the load from one leg to the other and even things
out somewhat. Of course it would depend upon what was turned on at any
given time.

Thanks to all who helped,

Don
If you have 2 volts difference with no load, and 18 volts with a
load, you DO have a neutral problem - The fact that the high side
comes down and the low side goes up with no load proves it HAS to be a
neutral problem. There is no other possibility. How long is the feed
from the main to the sub? What kind of cable did you use? How deep is
it burried? Is it direct burial cable or in a conduit? Is it running
under a driveway?

Something is still not adding up. Also, do you have a driven
ground??? If not, get one in there and test again.


8 volts difference, NOT 18 volts difference. I am guessing (not going
out and measure) that the distance from box to box is approximately
140'. All I can tell you about the cable is that it says "AWG 2 AL TYPE
VSE-2 60 MILS XLP INSULATED 500 VOLTS" and that it is black. It is
buried approximately 4' deep and is not under a driveway. I do not
believe there is a driven ground rod at the shop. I did just happen to
put an 8' one in about three weeks ago for a "long wire antenna" for
antique radios that I have and it was not fun.

I appreciate the advice but it has been working well for approximately
eight years so nothing new is going to happen in the near future. We
will be leaving state tomorrow for New Year's Eve parties, returning for
a short period and then going to Florida until the beginning of March.
During that period noting runs in the shop except the central propane
fired hot air heating system.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:01:22 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

"AWG 2 AL TYPE
VSE-2 60 MILS XLP INSULATED 500 VOLTS"

I am sure you don't care but that is too small for 100a.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:53:01 -0600, IGot2P wrote:


Okay, the feeder wire is #2 if I am reading the writing on the wire
correctly.

I shut all of the power down and loosened the neutral in the main box in
the house and then reset it and tightened it up very tight. It did not
appear to be loose or corroded before or after I did this. I also
checked once again that the the hots coming out of the 100 amp breaker
in the main box in the house were tight and they were.

Now to the box in the shop. I attempted to tighten the hots but they
were already as tight as they would go. I then loosened the neutral,
checked for corrosion (there was none) and re-tightened it.

After doing the above I checked the voltages again and had the same 125
and 117 as I originally did so no joy.

Then I shut all of the breakers off in the shop panel including the main
100 amp breaker and checked the voltages again. Now things had changed
and I had 122v and 120v!

To this layman it appears that it is just difference in the load on the
two legs that is making the difference but now that the difference is
down to two (2) volts I think that is close enough. I suppose that I
could move some of the load from one leg to the other and even things
out somewhat. Of course it would depend upon what was turned on at any
given time.

Thanks to all who helped,

Don

You must have some fairly heavy load in there.
Yes, move some of the heavier loads to the opposite leg. Try to balance
them. If you have a clamp around amp meter, put it on each main wire.

Do you have a green wire coming from the house? If not, you should have
a ground rod, and I believe I read that anything over 100' should have
one anyhow. When weather allows, I'd put in two ground rods and connect
them with #6 bare copper wire.

IGot2P wrote in news:1c56e$5680c962$adba3119$30641
@ALLTEL.NET:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Which only confirms what you were told a week ago by clare, gfretwell, trader, and I'm not sure
how many other people: you have a bad neutral connection.

Since you don't seem to understand how this works, or the level of danger involved, I
recommend you hire a qualified electrician to find and fix the problem ASAP before your
house burns down.

Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

Uncle Monster wrote in
:


I was thinking if this problem or voltage difference just showed
up recently, it's time he gave the engineering dept at his power
company a call.

No, it's not. It's time he calls an electrician to fix his bad neutral connection.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 6:52:23 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 14:57:18 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote:


The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

It's actually the reverse. The neutral also serves as a ground for
old circuits installed in the days when it was permitted, prior to a
separate ground being required. A neutral was always required to
support a circuit with both 240V and 120V loads, it can't physically
work without it. The concept of requiring grounds came later.

Actually only for ranges and clothes dryers for the 40 years or so
that this exception existed but it was still never legal from a sub
panel ... for exactly the reason we are discussing.
The neutral is 5 or 6 volts above ground.
Do you really want to be laying on a concrete slab with a drill that
is putting 5 volts AC in your sweaty hands?
That is why I would really want to see a ground rod or two.
It is going to be a tingle voltage that may or may not trip the GFCI
... if he had any.

Then we could open the "other metallic path" thing if we are still
using the old 3 wire feeder exception.

I agree. My point was that on even those old circuits, it was the
neutral that was the essential component of supplying 240/120V.
And when the neutral is shared, it's the ground that's sharing the
neutral, not the other way around. The circuit could work with no
ground. It can't work with no neutral.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 9:32:49 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 16:53:34 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 4:41 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 12:01:35 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 12/29/2015 10:54 AM, John G wrote:

Took some time this evening and checked the voltage on several outlets
in my shop and to my surprise I found several at 117v and several at
125v. Then I noticed that the difference voltages were on different
circuits. Then taking a look at the breaker box I noticed that each 125v
would be directly across from another 125v breaker and the same for the
117v circuits.

Well, that gave me a good clue as to what was happening so I opened the
box and took a look and checked some voltages. I took a picture, added
the voltages to it, and uploaded it to one of my domains at
http://www.dongares.com/breaker.html so go and take a look.

As I have previously mentioned in an earlier post this is a sub-panel
which is supplied from the main panel in my home via a 100 amp breaker.
I have not taken time to check but I am almost willing to bet that I
find different voltages in my home also. It is going to be interesting
to see if what I am getting from the street to my home is also different
voltages...how you want to bet?

The home was built in 1993 and these differences have never caused a
problem but it will still be interesting to see what is actually happening.

The grounds in a sub-panel are not to be terminated on the neutral bar. Remove the green screw and install a separate ground bar in your sub-panel for the grounding conductors.

Did you contact the power company? A problem with one of their lines may be causing the voltage drop.

John Grabowski
http://www.MrElectrician.TV

Is that all you saw ;-)

Are you referring to the two different brands of circuit breakers?

No GFCI's and I suspect there may be some need for them in a "shop"
(without knowing what else is in the building).

Two 20A breakers are unused -- both on the same leg (a likely place
to suspect a sizeable imbalance)

That is why I asked about the feeder size.

The bottom right two-pole breaker feeds a 220V circuit wired black/white
(i.e., the safety "ground" acting as neutral for any appliance
fed from that branch)

There is plenty of 240v shop equipment that doesn't use a neutral.

You don't know that looking *in* the panel. Put a cover on the terminal
Jbox (because you are no longer using that piece of gear) and the
next guy coming along opens it to find white (untaped), black and
copper. Do you think he's going to assume the white is really
a hot and this is a 220V feed? Or, that it's yet another 110V, 20A
circuit?
When you decommission a 2 wire 240 volt circuit that does not use a
240 volt specific outlet you ALWAYS disconnect it at the breaker. That
way there is no chance of ambiguity.

It would seem to me that any time your decommission any circuit,
you would disconnect it at the breaker.




A good idea on any "dedicated" circuit too. If there is nothing else
on the circuit don't just wire-nut it off in the jbox. Either
disconnect, or better yet label and lock out the breaker involved.

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 at 8:53:00 PM UTC-5, IGot2P wrote:
On 12/28/2015 7:14 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:24:50 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

On 12/28/2015 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Dec 2015 18:51:14 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 12/28/2015 4:04 PM, John G wrote:
Don Y has brought this to us :

Do the *easy* things, first.
- measure at the *main* panel
- measure at the subpanel (already done)
- open the disconnect at the subpanel and remeasure at the main panel
Assuming this isolates the problem to the subpanel:
- remove individual loads from the subpanel (open breakers) and measure

Take good notes.

You should be able to diagnose the problem just from these observations.

It has taken an unbelievable amount of drivel and misinformation to get
down to
this simple list of things to do to isolate the problem. :-?

I am basically lazy. : As I think most folks are. I would rather do
the easy things -- take data and THINK about the problem -- than run
around "try this", etc.

Occam's Razor: chances are, it's something in the subpanel/workshop
and NOT something with the utility -- *or* the main panel (not
counting the subpanel tie-in).

Eliminate the workshop and see if the problem persists. If not, tells
you the problem is *related* to the workshop (though may still manifest
in something else).


Often it is easy to determin if it is a neutral problem. Meter both sides
of the AC. Then with almost everything cut off, plug in a large load such
as a bathroom heat or hair dryer to one side. If the unloaded side changes
voltage it is almost sure to be a neutral problem somewhere.

YOu can do this in the workshop, then move to the house.
If workshop and not house, it is probably your problem, if also at the house
and on the main wires, if the neutral is not loose at the box, probably the
power company problem



Generally speaking, checking at the service disconnect is about as far
as you can go because everything on the line side of that is sealed by
the PoCo. They will generally fix anything on that side for free, just
to keep you out of the metering equipment. Obviously if they determine
it is on the line side of the service point (typically the crimps on
the drop or the transformer connection on a service lateral), it is
their baby anyway.

Okay, to the few who have stayed on subject...first I checked most of
the outlets in the house and they all read in the 122v range. I then
opened the house breaker box and both sides coming in read 122.7v. I
also checked the voltage coming out of the breaker that goes to the shop
and they also read 122.7. I also tightened all three wires down that go
to the shop (actually none were loose). I THINK that this tells me that
the problem is in the shop but we are currently in the middle of a
rain/sleet/snow storm here in the Midwest so I am no going back out to
the shop to look in that box again tonight. In fact, we were totally
without power part of this afternoon...the ice probably took a limb down
over a line.

Thanks for all of the help and let me know if you agree that the problem
is in the shop.

You have determined that it is in the neutral in the feeder. It might
even be worth disconnecting it AFTER YOU TRIP THE BREAKER for that
feeder and examine both ends of the wire for corrosion etc.
Then examine the lug and reinstall it.

I also did not notice a ground rod connection at the shop end. If you
are setting the "way back" machine to a time when 3 wire feeders to
additional buildings, you were still required to drive a rod. With
that much of a voltage drop in your neutral, you are putting voltage
on the case of all of your equipment.
A ground electrode will mitigate that a bit.
If you really want to address the violations you can also separate the
wires on the ground bus (one for each screw) you have plenty of
spares. You can double or triple up the grounds in most panels but not
the neutrals. They need their own screw.
What size wire is that feeder?


Okay, the feeder wire is #2 if I am reading the writing on the wire
correctly.

I shut all of the power down and loosened the neutral in the main box in
the house and then reset it and tightened it up very tight. It did not
appear to be loose or corroded before or after I did this. I also
checked once again that the the hots coming out of the 100 amp breaker
in the main box in the house were tight and they were.

Now to the box in the shop. I attempted to tighten the hots but they
were already as tight as they would go. I then loosened the neutral,
checked for corrosion (there was none) and re-tightened it.

After doing the above I checked the voltages again and had the same 125
and 117 as I originally did so no joy.

Then I shut all of the breakers off in the shop panel including the main
100 amp breaker and checked the voltages again. Now things had changed
and I had 122v and 120v!

To this layman it appears that it is just difference in the load on the
two legs that is making the difference but now that the difference is
down to two (2) volts I think that is close enough. I suppose that I
could move some of the load from one leg to the other and even things
out somewhat. Of course it would depend upon what was turned on at any
given time.

Thanks to all who helped,

Don

What you're seeing is the symptom of a bad, partially functional neutral.
With no load, the voltages measured between either leg and hot will be
equal. As soon as you apply an unequal load on the legs, then current
flows in the neutral and you see the voltages differ. The larger the load,
the greater the difference. Tell us the amps flowing, the voltages you
are measuring and we can tell you how large the resistance is that shouldn't
be there. If the resistance is large enough and the current high enough,
it's going to get hot, very hot. If you have a 5 volt drop and 100A,
that's 500W at the point of the bad connection. How lucky do you feel today?

And rebalancing loads is just covering up the problem. It's only
effective if the loads on each leg are equal and on at the same time.
How are you going to achieve that?

Like others have suggested, probably time to call an electrician.

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 22:15:08 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:01:22 -0600, IGot2P
wrote:

"AWG 2 AL TYPE
VSE-2 60 MILS XLP INSULATED 500 VOLTS"

I am sure you don't care but that is too small for 100a.
Particularly with the AL in there. Sounds like aluminum, which needs
to be upsized - and at 140 feet also needs to be upsized.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:29:29 -0000 (UTC), Doug Miller
wrote:

Uncle Monster wrote in
:


I was thinking if this problem or voltage difference just showed
up recently, it's time he gave the engineering dept at his power
company a call.

No, it's not. It's time he calls an electrician to fix his bad neutral connection.

If he has everthing on the one leg the neutral wire is carrying ALL
the load. If he splits the load equally the neutral carries no load -
so yes, balancing th load may get rid of the voltage inbalance, but he
still has a problem. MIGHT just be undersized wire for the load and
distance - combined with no ground - but I'm atill thinking neatral
problem. (and undersized neutral COULD cause the problem if the load
is unballanced)

On 12/29/2015 8:01 PM, IGot2P wrote:

8 volts difference, NOT 18 volts difference. I am guessing (not going out and
measure) that the distance from box to box is approximately 140'. All I can
tell you about the cable is that it says "AWG 2 AL TYPE VSE-2 60 MILS XLP
INSULATED 500 VOLTS" and that it is black. It is buried approximately 4' deep
and is not under a driveway. I do not believe there is a driven ground rod at
the shop. I did just happen to put an 8' one in about three weeks ago for a
"long wire antenna" for antique radios that I have and it was not fun.

*Measure* the potential between the neutral in your (workshop) box
(or, at any free outlet) and this ground rod taking care NOT to short
them in the process.

I appreciate the advice but it has been working well for approximately eight
years so nothing new is going to happen in the near future.

How do you KNOW that? Do you have a record of these observations/measurements
that dates back to that time?? I.e., for all you know, this may be a
recent development... or, related to the current loading, etc.

We will be leaving
state tomorrow for New Year's Eve parties, returning for a short period and
then going to Florida until the beginning of March. During that period noting
runs in the shop except the central propane fired hot air heating system.

frown Horses for courses. I tend to not like *leaving* a problem
for fear something I've failed to consider will bite me in the *ss
while I'm "away" from it!

Enjoy your trip!

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in the meter base could be a problem if it's loose. There are all kinds of things that can cause an imbalance which is why, in another post, I wondered if the problem had just suddenly appeared after everything had been normal from the start. If the OP has inspected the neutral connections everywhere he can get to and believes it's a bad neutral connection then he should cut the seal off the meter, pull the meter and check the connections there. So if his neutral connections are good all the way through to the meter base, what should he do next if he doesn't have pole climbing gear? Of course he should contact his power company and inform them that he cut the seal off the meter socket and the reason why. If it's one of the newer remote reading meters, the power company will know anyway but it's best to inform the utility. Š™.˜‰

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 3:16:02 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in
the meter base could be a problem if it's loose.

I believe from the tests he performed the problem was isolated to be
between the subpanel and the main panel, not between the main panel
and the utility. He had normal voltages at the main panel.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:32:10 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:


I was thinking if this problem or voltage difference just showed
up recently, it's time he gave the engineering dept at his power
company a call.

No, it's not. It's time he calls an electrician to fix his bad neutral connection.

I know a number of electricians who couldn't figure it out. I actually worked with some who had been in the business for years and didn't understand how 3 and 4 way switches worked. Have you ever seen a voltage imbalance caused by one burnt contact in a 2 or 3 pole breaker that someone had been using as a switch when the breaker wasn't rated for use as a switch? I have a couple of pieces of test gear that can find those problems rather quickly without making contact. (€¢€¿€¢)

[8~{} Uncle Burnt Monster

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 2:34:07 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 3:16:02 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in
the meter base could be a problem if it's loose.

I believe from the tests he performed the problem was isolated to be
between the subpanel and the main panel, not between the main panel
and the utility. He had normal voltages at the main panel.

I didn't see that post but it makes perfect sense. I'd also wonder if he was using a breaker as a switch to feed his out building. If the breaker isn't switch rated, one of the contacts could have burned. I've been able to track down problems like that with one of my infrared thermometers and my ultrasonic leak detector which allowed me to hear the sizzling contacts. In the late 1980's I was working for an electrical contracting group that had gotten into a new field of service for business and industry where we used thermal imaging cameras to check all of their electrical panels. Bad connections and defective breakers showed up very quickly. A problem I've seen more than once is caused by using a circuit breaker as a switch when it is't rated for that kind of service. Voltage drop across breaker contacts would be one of the first things I'd check for when there's an imbalance and no obvious indications of loose connections exist. Anyway, It's been quite a while since I've done any field work. ヽ(€¢€¿€¢)ノ

[8~{} Uncle Lazy Monster

"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

I didn't see that post but it makes perfect sense. I'd also wonder if he
was using a breaker as a switch to feed his out building. If the breaker
isn't switch rated, one of the contacts could have burned. I've been able
to track down problems like that with one of my infrared thermometers and
my ultrasonic leak detector which allowed me to hear the sizzling contacts.
In the late 1980's I was working for an electrical contracting group that
had gotten into a new field of service for business and industry where we
used thermal imaging cameras to check all of their electrical panels. Bad
connections and defective breakers showed up very quickly. A problem I've
seen more than once is caused by using a circuit breaker as a switch when
it is't rated for that kind of service. Voltage drop across breaker
contacts would be one of the first things I'd check for when there's an
imbalance and no obvious indications of loose connections exist. Anyway,
It's been quite a while since I've done any field work. ?(.?.)?

[8~{} Uncle Lazy Monster

Where I worked we had a thermal imaging camera. About once or twice a year
all the electricl panels and breaker boxes were opened and looked at. If
any showed up 'hot' we would determin the cause. Often you could see which
wire out of the 3 on a 3 phase starter was hotter than the others . We
would get a pixture that looked similar to a blach and white phonograph with
the hotter items showing up as whiter.
Only problem was that camera was in the thousands of dollars when it was
bought.

Those IR thermometes can be had for less than $ 50 now. I got one at Harbor
Freight for about $ 25 a few weeks ago to play with.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 3:48:25 PM UTC-6, Ralph Mowery wrote:
"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

I didn't see that post but it makes perfect sense. I'd also wonder if he
was using a breaker as a switch to feed his out building. If the breaker
isn't switch rated, one of the contacts could have burned. I've been able
to track down problems like that with one of my infrared thermometers and
my ultrasonic leak detector which allowed me to hear the sizzling contacts.
In the late 1980's I was working for an electrical contracting group that
had gotten into a new field of service for business and industry where we
used thermal imaging cameras to check all of their electrical panels. Bad
connections and defective breakers showed up very quickly. A problem I've
seen more than once is caused by using a circuit breaker as a switch when
it is't rated for that kind of service. Voltage drop across breaker
contacts would be one of the first things I'd check for when there's an
imbalance and no obvious indications of loose connections exist. Anyway,
It's been quite a while since I've done any field work. ?(.?.)?

[8~{} Uncle Lazy Monster

Where I worked we had a thermal imaging camera. About once or twice a year
all the electricl panels and breaker boxes were opened and looked at. If
any showed up 'hot' we would determin the cause. Often you could see which
wire out of the 3 on a 3 phase starter was hotter than the others . We
would get a pixture that looked similar to a blach and white phonograph with
the hotter items showing up as whiter.
Only problem was that camera was in the thousands of dollars when it was
bought.

Those IR thermometes can be had for less than $ 50 now. I got one at Harbor
Freight for about $ 25 a few weeks ago to play with.

I had the pistol sized laser pointer equipped IR thermometer for years that wasn't the highest grade and it cost $100 when I got it but was stolen from a job site I was on. I can get a new one of the same quality for about $30 now. I have another that's very handy and it's twice the size of my thumb so I can carry it in my shirt pocket. The little thermometer has a lighted LCD screen and the reflector for the sensor is the diameter of a dime. It works very well and is so easy to get into tight spaces. (€¢€¿€¢)

https://www.johnstonesupply.com/stor...ep?pID=H25-886

https://www.johnstonesupply.com/stor...ep?pID=H26-613

[8~{} Uncle IR Monster

On 12/30/2015 03:34 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I know a number of electricians who couldn't figure it out. I actually worked with some who had been in the business for years and didn't understand how 3 and 4 way switches worked.

There are tons of unlicensed jack-leg hacks that call themselves electricians but they are obviously not licensed Master Electricians!

"Gustav" wrote in message
...
On 12/30/2015 03:34 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
I know a number of electricians who couldn't figure it out. I actually
worked with some who had been in the business for years and didn't
understand how 3 and 4 way switches worked.

There are tons of unlicensed jack-leg hacks that call themselves
electricians but they are obviously not licensed Master Electricians!

There are also licensed electricians that are jack-legs. I worked with one
and I would not let him change a battery in a single cell flashlight.
I don't know how he managed to pass the state test in only 3 tries.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:15:58 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in the meter base could be a problem if it's loose. There are all kinds of things that can cause an imbalance which is why, in another post, I wondered if the problem had just suddenly appeared after everything had been normal from the start. If the OP has inspected the neutral connections everywhere he can get to and believes it's a bad neutral connection then he should cut the seal off the meter, pull the meter and check the connections there. So if his neutral connections are good all the way through to the meter base, what should he do next if he doesn't have pole climbing gear? Of course he should contact his power company and inform them that he cut the seal off the meter socket and the reason why. If it's one of the newer remote reading meters, the power company will know anyway but it's best to inform the utility. ?.?

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster
The problem with your solution is the voltage at the "main" panel in
the house has no problem. He has a problem between the main and the
sub. Underszed feed (for the length) and inballanced load could
explain it. Otherwize he has a neutral problem.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:15:58 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in the meter base could be a problem if it's loose. There are all kinds of things that can cause an imbalance which is why, in another post, I wondered if the problem had just suddenly appeared after everything had been normal from the start. If the OP has inspected the neutral connections everywhere he can get to and believes it's a bad neutral connection then he should cut the seal off the meter, pull the meter and check the connections there. So if his neutral connections are good all the way through to the meter base, what should he do next if he doesn't have pole climbing gear? Of course he should contact his power company and inform them that he cut the seal off the meter socket and the reason why. If it's one of the newer remote reading meters, the power company will know anyway but it's best to inform the utility. ?.?

[8~{} Uncle Electric Monster
My saying an undersized fead and inballanced load could cause it would
only be because the neutral was overloaded by the inballance. With a
properly balanced load the neutral carries NO current.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:25:06 -0800 (PST), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 2:34:07 PM UTC-6, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 3:16:02 PM UTC-5, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 7:29:32 AM UTC-6, Doug Miller wrote:
Uncle Monster wrote in
:

The transformer on the pole may have a tap that you power
company could move to change the voltage on one leg.

No, it probably doesn't. And the problem isn't what's coming from the power company anyway.
The problem is that his neutral connection is bad.

I believe I mentioned in a previous post that the neutral connection in
the meter base could be a problem if it's loose.

I believe from the tests he performed the problem was isolated to be
between the subpanel and the main panel, not between the main panel
and the utility. He had normal voltages at the main panel.

I didn't see that post but it makes perfect sense. I'd also wonder if he was using a breaker as a switch to feed his out building. If the breaker isn't switch rated, one of the contacts could have burned. I've been able to track down problems like that with one of my infrared thermometers and my ultrasonic leak detector which allowed me to hear the sizzling contacts. In the late 1980's I was working for an electrical contracting group that had gotten into a new field of service for business and industry where we used thermal imaging cameras to check all of their electrical panels. Bad connections and defective breakers showed up very quickly. A problem I've seen more than once is caused by using a circuit breaker as a switch when it is't rated for that kind of service. Voltage drop across breaker contacts would be one of the first things I'd check for when there's an imbalance and no obvious indications of loose connections exist. Anyway, It's been quite a while since I've done any
field work. ?(•?•)?

[8~{} Uncle Lazy Monster
All of your points have validity - but when one side os HIGHER than
1/2 the line to line voltage, it is NOT a voltage drop on the line
contactor, breaker, or power bus. It is a neutral problem. Period.

If one side line to neutral is half of line to line, and the other
side is less than half line to line, your bad breaker scenario could
well be the cause.

In this case he has no net voltage drop.

On Wed, 30 Dec 2015 16:51:08 -0500, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Uncle Monster" wrote in message
...

I didn't see that post but it makes perfect sense. I'd also wonder if he
was using a breaker as a switch to feed his out building. If the breaker
isn't switch rated, one of the contacts could have burned. I've been able
to track down problems like that with one of my infrared thermometers and
my ultrasonic leak detector which allowed me to hear the sizzling contacts.
In the late 1980's I was working for an electrical contracting group that
had gotten into a new field of service for business and industry where we
used thermal imaging cameras to check all of their electrical panels. Bad
connections and defective breakers showed up very quickly. A problem I've
seen more than once is caused by using a circuit breaker as a switch when
it is't rated for that kind of service. Voltage drop across breaker
contacts would be one of the first things I'd check for when there's an
imbalance and no obvious indications of loose connections exist. Anyway,
It's been quite a while since I've done any field work. ?(.?.)?

[8~{} Uncle Lazy Monster

Where I worked we had a thermal imaging camera. About once or twice a year
all the electricl panels and breaker boxes were opened and looked at. If
any showed up 'hot' we would determin the cause. Often you could see which
wire out of the 3 on a 3 phase starter was hotter than the others . We
would get a pixture that looked similar to a blach and white phonograph with
the hotter items showing up as whiter.
Only problem was that camera was in the thousands of dollars when it was
bought.

Those IR thermometes can be had for less than $ 50 now. I got one at Harbor
Freight for about $ 25 a few weeks ago to play with.

They work pretty well, but they are no replacement for a FLIR

A half decent FLIR still costs $800 american and up.

On Wednesday, December 30, 2015 at 8:04:45 PM UTC-6, wrote:

My saying an undersized fead and inballanced load could cause it would
only be because the neutral was overloaded by the inballance. With a
properly balanced load the neutral carries NO current.

I think you have a hybrid word "imbalance" and "unbalance"? (or I'm not competent in Canadienese) (à²*_ృ)