I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The
closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a
to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the
electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he
just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! ---
John

- John -
I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom
closet. The
closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required
one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I
need a
to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does
the
electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can
he
just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet?
Thanks! ---
John

- Nehmo -
Take it from one side, and ignore the inevitable responses that don't
agree with this.

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

"John" wrote in message
...
I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The
closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a
to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the
electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he
just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! ---
John


This is Turtle

No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch
off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit
to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there.

TURTLE

- TURTLE -
No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed
to branch
off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new
circuit
to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there.

- Nehmo -
What might the "required electric equipment" be?

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Right, and ignore anybody that says this does'nt meet code either...

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
- TURTLE -

No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed

to branch

off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new

circuit

to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there.


- Nehmo -
What might the "required electric equipment" be?



A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it.
The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at
15A or 20A. Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer. There are
fuse holders for edison fuses that fit in a standard electrical box. I
don't know if you could find one to fit one side of a double box and
have a space for a Decora receptical (for the GFCI) with a matching
cover plate.

You also might end up tripping the breaker for the dryer with this
arrangement if you run the washing machine while the dryer is running on
a high-heat cycle.

Bob

- Nehmo -
What might the "required electric equipment" be?

- zxcvbob -
A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it.
The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at
15A or 20A.

- Nehmo –
Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer
can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming
it won't overload it, and it probably won't).

- zxcvbob -
Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer.

- Nehmo –
If OP wants, he can use a GFCI receptacle for the washer, but it
wouldn't be required by NEC. The outlet would be dedicated and not
readily accessible.

NEC 2002
"210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for
Personnel.
FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection
for personnel on feeders.
(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in
(1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection for personnel.
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor
located at or below grade level not intended as habitable
rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas,
and areas of similar use
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible.
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle
for two appliances located within dedicated space for
each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved
from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected
in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements
of 210.52(G).
(3) Outdoors
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and
are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric
snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be
installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of
Article 426.
(4) Crawl spaces — at or below grade level
(5) Unfinished basements — for purposes of this section,
unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of
the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited
to storage areas, work areas, and the like
Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible
Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle
for two appliances located within dedicated space for
each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved
from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected
in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8).
Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently
installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall
not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter
protection.
Receptacles installed under the exceptions to
210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements
of 210.52(G).
(6) Kitchens — where the receptacles are installed to serve
the countertop surfaces
(7) Wet bar sinks — where the receptacles are installed to
serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8
m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink.
(8) Boathouses
(B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase,
15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations
specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault
circuit-interrupter protection for personnel:
(1) Bathrooms
(2) Rooftops
Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and
are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric
snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be
installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of
Article 426.
(3) Kitchens"

A better forum for electrical questions is something like this:
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...163318130.html

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it
doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last
question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the
washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I
don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A
circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks
again. --- John

"John" wrote in message
...
I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet.
The
closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need
a
to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the
electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he
just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet?
Thanks! ---
John

Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the
washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I
don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) "

A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that
anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing
GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and
(b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed
only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit.
Looks like you are in luck.

According to Nehmo Sergheyev :
- Nehmo -
What might the "required electric equipment" be?

- zxcvbob -
A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it.
The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at
15A or 20A.

- Nehmo –
Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer
can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming
it won't overload it, and it probably won't).

Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer
on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the
breaker limit the heating coil is.

Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper
split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard.

Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

John wrote:
Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it
doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last
question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the
washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I
don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A
circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks
again. --- John

"John" wrote in message
...

I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet.

The

closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need

a

to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the
electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he
just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet?

Thanks! ---

John


Yes it would violate the US NEC. Both Laundry Circuits and bathroom
basin receptacle outlets must have a separate circuit to supply them.
The nature of the two uses is such that overloading is nearly inevitable.
--
Tom H

"Matt" wrote in message
oups.com...
Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the
washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I
don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) "

A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that
anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing
GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and
(b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed
only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit.
Looks like you are in luck.


Thanks for the reference! LOL

- Chris Lewis -
Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer
on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the
breaker limit the heating coil is.

- Nehmo -
OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now
acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't
cause a problem.

- Chris Lewis -
Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper
split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard.

- Nehmo -
If you use "good chance" to substitute for suplied info, you can get any
conclusion you want. If you're curious if there's a ground, you have to
ask. Otherwise you need to condition your response. Normally a
NEMA#14-30R outlet
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/web...quailplug.html has both a
ground and a neutral.

- Chris Lewis -
Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong.

- Nehmo -
Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer
or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?

Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes
priority. There's a big difference in cost here.

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

From: "Nehmo Sergheyev"


- Chris Lewis -
Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer
on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the
breaker limit the heating coil is.

- Nehmo -
OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now
acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't
cause a problem.

A combo unit which was designed to operate on 1 220v 30a circuit. 2 individual
units, one also designed to operate on a 30a 220v circuit, and the other
designed to operate on it's own 120v circuit isn't the same thing.

- Chris Lewis -
Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper
split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard.

- Nehmo -
If you use "good chance" to substitute for suplied info, you can get any
conclusion you want. If you're curious if there's a ground, you have to
ask. Otherwise you need to condition your response. Normally a
NEMA#14-30R outlet
http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/web...quailplug.html has both a
ground and a neutral.

- Chris Lewis -
Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong.

- Nehmo -
Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer
or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?

Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f).

"(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be
installed for the laundry.
Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a
multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises that
are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be
required.

Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities
are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be
required."

And in article 210-11 (c) (2)

"210-11. Branch Circuits Required

Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated
appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in accordance with
Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific
loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this Code and
for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).***

(c) Dwelling Units.

(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits
required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere
branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s)
required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other outlets.
***



Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes
priority.

Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code? Do the
rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford it?

There's a big difference in cost here.

"those who consider price alone..."


--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

"Nehmo Sergheyev" wrote in message
...
- Chris Lewis -
Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer
on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the
breaker limit the heating coil is.

- Nehmo -
OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now
acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't
cause a problem.


This is Turtle.

Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100
amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance
to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit
arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get
this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it
will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon.

TURTLE

- Nehmo -
Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a
washer
or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?

- HaHaHa -
Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f).

- Nehmo -
You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available:
ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%2020 02%20Edition.zi
p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6A GFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ
BEKIHC|/
I need 2005.

- HaHaHa -
"(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet
shall be
installed for the laundry.
Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living
area in a
multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the
premises that
are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall
not be
required.

Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry
facilities
are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not
be
required."

And in article 210-11 (c) (2)
"210-11. Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including
motor-operated
appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in
accordance with
Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for
specific
loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this
Code and
for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).***

(c) Dwelling Units.
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch
circuits
required by other parts of this section, at least one additional
20-ampere
branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle
outlet(s)
required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other
outlets.
***

- Nehmo -
That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron,
press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated
outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is
usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's
not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry
faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer,
how can it be absent there?

- Nehmo -
Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy
takes
priority.

- HaHaHa -
Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code?
Do the
rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford
it?

- Nehmo -
You and your accomplices are just following the common
news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people
rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route.
It goes along with crabbing at people.

- Nehmo -
There's a big difference in cost here.

- HaHaHa -
"those who consider price alone..."

- Nehmo -
I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price.

--
*********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:
....
....
...not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry
faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer,
how can it be absent there?

You're reading it wrong...it's saying in an apartment building where
there are (a) communal facilites, or (b) the landlord has said, "tough,
go to the corner laundromat", THEN (and only then) can you NOT have
the dedicated outlet.

Nehmo Sergheyev wrote:

- Nehmo -

Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a

washer

or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?


- HaHaHa -

Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f).


- Nehmo -
You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available:
ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%2020 02%20Edition.zi
p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6A GFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ
BEKIHC|/
I need 2005.

- HaHaHa -

"(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet

shall be

installed for the laundry.
Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living

area in a

multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the

premises that

are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall

not be

required.

Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry

facilities

are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not

be

required."


And in article 210-11 (c) (2)
"210-11. Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including

motor-operated

appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in

accordance with

Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for

specific

loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this

Code and

for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).***

(c) Dwelling Units.
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch

circuits

required by other parts of this section, at least one additional

20-ampere

branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle

outlet(s)

required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other

outlets.

***


- Nehmo -
That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron,
press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated
outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is
usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's
not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry
faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer,
how can it be absent there?

- Nehmo -

Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy

takes

priority.


- HaHaHa -

Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code?

Do the

rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford

it?

- Nehmo -
You and your accomplices are just following the common
news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people
rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route.
It goes along with crabbing at people.

- Nehmo -

There's a big difference in cost here.


- HaHaHa -

"those who consider price alone..."


- Nehmo -
I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price.



I don't recommend tapping the existing circuit to get the 120V for the
washer, but I *might* do it myself if there was no more room in the
breaker box for another circuit, or if it was ususually impossible to
run the wires for a new laundry circuit. Adding a new circuit is
usually not all that hard or expensive to do.

If I was going to tap the dryer circuit to supply the washer, I would
figure out which leg of the 240V circuit supplied the dryer's motor and
timer, then I would take the hot wire from the other leg so it will be
balanced better and less likely to trip the breaker. Then the washer
needs a 15A or 20A fuse between the tap and the recepticle. It would
look kind of goofy, and by the time you find and buy all the junction
boxes and plug fuse holders (etc.) it will cost more than doing the job
right in most cases. If you gerry-rig it like this and it works, it
might not work if you replace the dryer someday and the dryer has the
120V stuff on its other circuit leg -- so you would have to remember
that and reverse the black and red wires in the dryer outlet.

It's not a good idea, but it could be done safely; but you won't find an
electrician willing to do it because it's not very workmanlike and it
would not meet the current electric code.

Best regards,
Bob

According to Nehmo Sergheyev :

Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes
priority. There's a big difference in cost here.

Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but
code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky.

How does this violate code? Let us count the ways:

1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral.
Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove
or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially
lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are
prohibited in new construction.

[In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire.
Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.]

2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means
that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A.
Code no-no.

Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits
mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer
is treated as a single device obviously).

Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which
it is is irrelevant.

3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire
circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit
as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to
avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too.

By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll
likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or
tapping off something else for the washer.

4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more
power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a
stacked) unit.

Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity
code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element
plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer
motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the
appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite
leg from the dryer motor.

Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping
the breaker.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

According to TURTLE :
This is Turtle.

Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100
amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance
to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit
arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get
this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it
will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon.

Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare
steel fence wire off the pole transformer.

If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have
to turn off.

[That's a joke! ;-)]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:
According to Nehmo Sergheyev :


Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch
circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes
priority. There's a big difference in cost here.


Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but
code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky.

How does this violate code? Let us count the ways:

1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral.
Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove
or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially
lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are
prohibited in new construction.

[In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire.
Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.]

2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means
that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A.
Code no-no.

Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits
mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer
is treated as a single device obviously).

Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which
it is is irrelevant.

3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire
circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit
as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to
avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too.

By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll
likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or
tapping off something else for the washer.

4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more
power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a
stacked) unit.

Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity
code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element
plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer
motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the
appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite
leg from the dryer motor.

Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping
the breaker.


He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was
a subtle reference; he said "14-30R")

Best regards,
Bob

According to zxcvbob :

He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was
a subtle reference; he said "14-30R")

Despite having written the electrical wiring FAQ, I don't keep the
plug/receptacle specs in my head. Sigh. Oops ;-)

Still bad of course ;-)
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

- zafdor -
Right, and ignore anybody that says this does'nt meet code either...

- Nehmo -
We are not automatons, and in real life, it's not desirable nor
necessary to always adhere to the NEC. In any case, someone claiming
something is in violation of some code or law, should cite the code or
law.
--
********************
* Nehmo Sergheyev *
*********************

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
According to TURTLE :
This is Turtle.

Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a
100
amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO
chance
to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit
arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get
this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess
it
will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon.

Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using
bare
steel fence wire off the pole transformer.

If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have
to turn off.

[That's a joke! ;-)]
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

This is Turtle.

You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is
pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is
a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real
good.

TURTLE

According to TURTLE :

"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...
Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using
bare
steel fence wire off the pole transformer.

If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have
to turn off.

This is Turtle.

You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is
pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is
a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real
good.

Even better, wrap the wires around your finger. You'll find out about
overloads even faster than with signal fires.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

Chris Lewis wrote:

According to TURTLE :


"Chris Lewis" wrote in message
...

Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using
bare
steel fence wire off the pole transformer.


If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have
to turn off.


This is Turtle.



You don't need to look for the Red wire when over loaded. All you need to do is
pile some paper on the wires and it will give you a signal fire to tell there is
a problem. Red wire are hard to see in attic but a signal fire will be seen real
good.


Even better, wrap the wires around your finger. You'll find out about
overloads even faster than with signal fires.


I usually just touch my tongue to the wire see if it's hot. HTH :-)

Bob

I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.


--
JimE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52
View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759

According to JimE :

I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.

The main difficulties people encounter switching 240V outlets over
to 120V is that the result isn't breakered properly and/or has no
ground.

Or they try to mix 240V and 120V devices on the same circuit.
Yes, stoves and dryers are such, but they're single devices, not
multiple. There's a reason why stoves and dryers are supposed
to be the _only_ things on their circuits.

You say that you have a 240V 3 wire receptacle in the wall with
other 120V outlets attached to it. This is illegal for at least
three reasons:

1) The 120V outlets cannot have proper grounds. Ground != neutral,
potentially quite dangerous.
2) The 120V outlets are inherently breakered at 30A - highly
dangerous.
3) Mixture of different voltages for seperate devices.

The closest you can get to "right", without pulling new wire, is
to rearrange the wiring in the panel so that it's a single 120V
circuit on a 15A or 20A breaker (with oversize wire, but that's
okay). Which ends up needing to use an insulated wire as ground -
you have to use the white as neutral - so that means you'll have to
use a black or red as ground.

Code-wise that's illegal, but an inspector may permit it if you
have no other reasonable alternative.
--
Chris Lewis, Una confibula non set est
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.

JimE wrote:

...The problem is that there is only a 240v 3 wire outlet on that wall.
This outlet is what powered the old unit, which also had 120v outlets
on it that were powered by this outlet.

Note the words "on it." I suppose it would be legal to plug a fridge
into one of those outlets, if you didn't remove the old unit. If you
removed the front door of the old oven, would it still be legal to
plug the fridge into one of the 120 V outlets? Probably so. And if you
removed the range top? Probably so. And if you removed the racks in
the oven? Probably so. And if you removed everything else you could
unbolt or cut off, leaving only the outlets, dangling by wires...? :-)

I need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that
the only reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs...

Essentially duplicating what was on the old unit, with no change in
the existing level of safety. I wonder if there's some way to improve
the level of safety with something like a gfi, with no new wiring...

Nick

If you care to check, the outlet(s) on the old stove had their own 15 amp
fuses in the stoves fuse panel to protect the wiring and outlet, what you
propose will not have such fuse protection.

"JimE" wrote in message
...

I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.


--
JimE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52
View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759

There were a couple of fuses downstream of the junction box on the old
pullman unit, so it seems likely that at least one was for the 120v
outlets. I still need both 240v for the cooktop and 120v for the
fridge. The outlet box is in a cabinet under the sink. Would it be
better to install a one breaker mini-panel with a 15 amp breaker under
the sink between the 240v outlet and the 120v outlets? I live in the US
Virgin Islands and the standards are quite a bit lower than back in the
states. I seriously doubt that an inspector will ever see this wiring
and I suspect they would not have a problem with it if they did.


--
JimE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
JimE's Profile: http://www.homeplot.com/member.php?userid=52
View this thread: http://www.homeplot.com/showthread.php?t=31759

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:28:20 -0400, JimE
wrote:


I have read this thread with interest since I am facing a similar
situation. The wiring in my cement-walled older home was run inside the
walls when they were poured, making adding new wiring very difficult. I
have just remodeled a bedroom suite and replaced a pullman-style
one-piece stove/sink/fridge metal unit with new cabinets and a drop-in
cooktop, new frdge, etc. The problem is that there is only a 240v 3
wire outlet on that wall. This outlet is what powered the old unit,
which also had 120v outlets on it that were powered by this outlet. I
need a 120v outlet to power the new fridge and it appears that the only
reasonable option is to tap off one of the hot legs. All three outlet
wires are insulated and all the ground and neutral wires in my house
are attached to the same bus bar in the distribution panel. The outlet
is powered by a 30 amp breaker. While I understand that the codes exist
for a reason, I also know that most older homes do not meet current
codes. And don't most stoves and ovens have 120v loads supplied by
their 240v breaker? What exactly is the risk of my plan? There must be
some level of acceptable risk of non-compliance or most of the older
homes in the US would be uninhabital due to code non-compliance.

== warning non-expert rambling ==

Wouldn't the main concern be to protect the 120V outlet with a
suitably-rated breaker? As another poster pointed out, the outlets in
the range were presumably protected by 15A fuses or breakers.

Any reason you can't replace the original dual breaker with two 15A
singles? You could even break the link between the hots on the outlet,
and feed each half of the duplex socket with a different circuit that
way. Seems to me the result would be essentially equivalent to what
they specify for kitchen outlets these days. Or just put in one 15A
breaker and let the other leg be dead.

If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will let me know. :-)

-=s