Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

On 9/27/2015 6:31 PM, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed
lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must
still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps. So, I
cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire. Can I wire all the lights with
12awg and a 20amp breaker? All comments appreciated.

Are these in *one* room?
Does this one (proposed) lighting circuit represent the entire basement?
Are they all controlled from a single switch?
Are they arranged in one long (electrical) "line" (i.e., the 25th lamp
being the farthesst electrical distance from the supply)?
What's the longest "electrical length" encountered?
Have you guesstimated what the voltage drop will be at each fixture?
Have you considered what you will rely on for lighting if/when that
circuit is "off"?

Typically, a (lighting) branch circuit is sized at 80% of its load.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.

On 09/27/2015 09:29 PM, wrote:
Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.






Safety considerations aside, I'd put the lights on several circuits, you
would not want your basement to go completely dark if a breaker tripped.

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:29:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.

Feed a central junction box with a 20 amp circuit using #12. You can tie the 4 separate #14 circuits together in that junction box. Remember to put the junction box where it's accessible. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Sparky Monster

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

On 9/27/2015 7:29 PM, wrote:
Sorry, I should have described more. These lights are in 4 separate
areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per
room/switch.

So, when the circuit trips, you're completely in the dark (?)

Usually, you try to arrange to have an alternate source of
light/power adjacent or nearby -- so you're not left in the
dark. I like to have an adjacent room on a different branch
circuit so I can let light stream in through an open doorway, etc.

Also, have you considered using LED *fixtures*? Using an incandescent
fixture with an LED replacement bulb ties you to the VA rating of
the fixture, not the bulb within. Using an LED *fixture* lets
you get away with less.

I haven't looked at the transient characteristics of LED lighting
to know what sort of "surge" they impart to the line. Presumably,
they have been designed with the characteristics of incandescent
counterparts in mind? (i.e., I wouldn't want to end up
welding the switch contacts together from some start-up surge
owing to capacitors in the lamps)

Lighting tends to be considered a continuous load so the branch
circuit must be sized at 125% of that load (said another way,
you can only "use" 80% of the rated circuit ampacity -- 16A for
a 20A branch circuit).

If you put an outlet on the same circuit, then the rules change.

You also have to look at *where* the load is located. Putting
a 16A load on the end of 100 ft of wire will result in a voltage
drop of ~6.5V at that 100 ft point. The maximum *recommended*
allowed voltage drop on a branch circuit is 5% (6V for 120VAC).
The maximum recommended drop AT THE FAR END OF A BRANCH CIRCUIT
is 3%.

[#12 AWG is considerably more annoying to work with than #14 AWG.
You might want to keep that in mind]

And, of course, *local* code requirements trump the NEC all the time.
(I lived in a place that required EMT for all runs!)

Have you cornered anyone at your local electrical supply house
to see what sort of "free advice" they offer? (which you will take
with a grain of salt...)

On 9/27/2015 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

Understood.
This would be a dedicated lighting circuit, or circuits. Absolutely no outlets on it. Outlets will have separate circuit(s) and breaker(s).

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:10:58 PM UTC-5, Seymore4Head wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

You're right but I've never seen a 20 amp breaker not trip when a #14 wire was connected to it and shorted. I haven't read the code on it but there is a guy who posts here in the group who is/was an electrical inspector. The #18 wire in a light fixture is tied to 20 amp circuits all the time. The #14 circuits could probably allowed because there is little or no chance of 20 amps being on a lighting circuit unless you were to screw resistance heater elements into all the light sockets. A 20 amp AFCI breaker would protect the circuit much better. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Doubting Monster

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:29:09 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.


The code says you will be fine, general lighting circuits in the US
are based on square footage, not the number of outlets.
YMMV in the great white north.

If you think you would ever have all 75w lamps and all of them will be
on at once, by all means go with the 20a circuit but that is a design
decision not a code decision.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14.

That is not legal on a 20a circuit, even if it works.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:11:09 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/27/2015 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.


.... and only applies in commercial in the US

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:32:23 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

Understood.
This would be a dedicated lighting circuit, or circuits. Absolutely no outlets on it. Outlets will have separate circuit(s) and breaker(s).


Not to be pedantic but any termination of a circuit where energy is
used is an "outlet". not to be confused with a "receptacle" where you
plug things in or a "lamp holder" or "luminaire" where you install a
"lamp" (AKA light bulb). Those are just types of outlets.
A "device" is a piece of equipment that does not consume energy, like
a switch, breaker or any of those other little pieces of hardware in
an electrical installation like the wire nuts, connectors etc. The
lamp holder itself is a device but the location is an outlet.

If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)
The reason why you get away with having all of those lighting outlets
on one circuit is 210.23(A)(2) specifically exempts "luminaires" (AKA
light fixtures) from the fixed in place equipment.
You also have the protection of 240.4(D) (AKA idiot protection) that
artificially derates 14,12 and 10 gauge wire so the breaker is only
80% of the actual conductor ampacity. Your 80% protection is built
into the 14a breaker on 14 gauge wire, which is actually 20a wire in
310.16.

They know nobody actually reads those labels and you may use LEDs,
CFLs or you might screw in 150w PAR-38s. The breaker will trip before
the wire overheats. Being in the dark is another "design issue" not a
code issue.
Personally I would split them up but I couldn't make someone do it
with a red tag.
The same is true of loading too many outlets on a circuit. The code
just says you have to allow 3VA per square foot in residential but it
is not specific about how you wire it other than the ambiguous "Load
Evenly Proportioned Among Branch Circuits" in 210.11(B).
That is hard to determine until you see how the homeowner arranges
their furnishings and equipment so it is pretty much meaningless.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 12:58:21 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14.

That is not legal on a 20a circuit, even if it works.

Yea I know and have never done it. The last time I wired a whole building I used #14 and #12 stranded THHN in EMT. I knew you'd be the expert on the code but I don't understand what the OP is worried about if he uses LED lighting. The A19 60w bulb equivalent draws 10 watts or less and the 100 watt equivalent LED bulb uses 14.5 watts. If he lit his whole house with LED bulbs it would probably draw less than 20 amps total. I find it hard to believe he'd put 75w bulbs in every fixture and run them all at the same time. If his fixtures are capable of using 75w bulbs, is it a code requirement that the lighting circuit be capable of powering all 13 fixtures at the same time if 75w bulbs are used?
I don't know where my Ugly's Electrical Reference Book is and it's not the newest edition anyway. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Curious Monster

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:42:02 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:10:58 PM UTC-5, Seymore4Head wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

You're right but I've never seen a 20 amp breaker not trip when a #14 wire was connected to it and shorted. I haven't read the code on it but there is a guy who posts here in the group who is/was an electrical inspector. The #18 wire in a light fixture is tied to 20 amp circuits all the time. The #14 circuits could probably allowed because there is little or no chance of 20 amps being on a lighting circuit unless you were to screw resistance heater elements into all the light sockets. A 20 amp AFCI breaker would protect the circuit much better. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Doubting Monster


That is the idiot clause. (240.4(D)) that says unless otherwise
permitted in the code 14 ga wire shall be protected by a 15a breaker.
(12=20, 10=30)
It forces the 80% rule on "small conductors"

I could tell you where it is otherwise permitted but your head might
explode (like a legal 40a breaker on 14ga wire)


When you start talking about "fixture wire" (your 18 ga example)
that has to be part of a "listed" assembly, typically U/L listing.
Typically 18 ga wire has a design ampacity of 7a but in a listed
assembly where the load is controlled it can be protected by a 20a
breaker.
You are dealing with 2 issues, "overload" and "short circuit"
protection.
An overload is simply having too much load on the wire. Short circuit
protection is a bolted fault where there is essentially no limit to
the current but the resistance of the wire and the breaker, An 18 ga
wire, less than 50 feet long will operate a 20 a breaker in a bolted
fault.

At least that is the thinking.

You can still get in plenty of trouble with extension cords but we
were talking about lamps.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 1:49:58 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:42:02 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:10:58 PM UTC-5, Seymore4Head wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

You're right but I've never seen a 20 amp breaker not trip when a #14 wire was connected to it and shorted. I haven't read the code on it but there is a guy who posts here in the group who is/was an electrical inspector. The #18 wire in a light fixture is tied to 20 amp circuits all the time. The #14 circuits could probably allowed because there is little or no chance of 20 amps being on a lighting circuit unless you were to screw resistance heater elements into all the light sockets. A 20 amp AFCI breaker would protect the circuit much better. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Doubting Monster


That is the idiot clause. (240.4(D)) that says unless otherwise
permitted in the code 14 ga wire shall be protected by a 15a breaker.
(12=20, 10=30)
It forces the 80% rule on "small conductors"

I could tell you where it is otherwise permitted but your head might
explode (like a legal 40a breaker on 14ga wire)


When you start talking about "fixture wire" (your 18 ga example)
that has to be part of a "listed" assembly, typically U/L listing.
Typically 18 ga wire has a design ampacity of 7a but in a listed
assembly where the load is controlled it can be protected by a 20a
breaker.
You are dealing with 2 issues, "overload" and "short circuit"
protection.

I've repaired a lot of melted wiring that never tripped a breaker but luckily it was in UL listed boxes and enclosures. It was usually due to a bad connection that cause increasing resistance with temperature. Some even arced but didn't trip the breaker which wasn't an arc fault type. o_O

An overload is simply having too much load on the wire. Short circuit
protection is a bolted fault where there is essentially no limit to
the current but the resistance of the wire and the breaker, An 18 ga
wire, less than 50 feet long will operate a 20 a breaker in a bolted
fault.

At least that is the thinking.

You can still get in plenty of trouble with extension cords but we
were talking about lamps.

I worked with #14 high temp silicone and fiberglass insulated wire in some circuits and that stuff was carrying much more than 15 amps. I did come across something about uninsulated conductors in open air being rated at much higher current than insulated wire. I remember reading about power strips and extension cords not being allowed in New York City. Are you familiar with the strict limits on the use of extension cords in NYC? o_O

[8~{} Uncle Sparky Monster

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 12:42:09 AM UTC-4, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:10:58 PM UTC-5, Seymore4Head wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

You're right but I've never seen a 20 amp breaker not trip when a #14 wire was connected to it and shorted.

A direct short is only one failure mode that a breaker protects against
and it happens so quickly that the wire doesn't get a chance to overheat
so an undersized conductor would easily pass that. The other failure is
an overload, which will heat up the wire continuously over a long period.
Even there, considerable margin is in the code, so in most cases, a 14
conductor on a 20 breaker isn't going to start a fire. But the code margin
is there for a reason and most cases don't matter if you happen to have
the one that does.


I haven't read the code on it but there is a guy who posts here in the group who is/was an electrical inspector. The #18 wire in a light fixture is tied to 20 amp circuits all the time. The #14 circuits could probably allowed because there is little or no chance of 20 amps being on a lighting circuit unless you were to screw resistance heater elements into all the light sockets. A 20 amp AFCI breaker would protect the circuit much better. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Doubting Monster

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:08:00 -0400, Seymore4Head
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 19:56:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 8:31:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore

The breaker is there to protect the wiring. I you're really worried about overloading the circuit, you can feed the switch with #12 then split the lights into two strings wired with #14. One with 12 and the other 13 light fixtures with the circuits joined to the hot and neutral in the switch box. You'd need to use a deep switch box to make sure there's enough room for the wiring. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Smart Monster

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.
Correct. This is a good location for an "edison" or multiwire
circuit. He needs AT LEAST 2 circuits, whether 15 or 20 amp.

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:11:09 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/27/2015 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

As long as he doesn't tack on "one" convenience outlet he might get
away with it. Local interpretations vary.

On 9/28/2015 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:11:09 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/27/2015 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

As long as he doesn't tack on "one" convenience outlet he might get
away with it. Local interpretations vary.

This is the problem ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In most areas, there is no
way to appeal an inspector's ruling. So, if inspector misinterprets the
Code (or, is "having a bad day"), you're stuck with his ruling.

On 9/27/2015 11:02 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:29:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.

Feed a central junction box with a 20 amp circuit using #12. You can tie the 4 separate #14 circuits together in that junction box. Remember to put the junction box where it's accessible. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Sparky Monster

I don't think this is allowed or even a good idea. I'd go with 2 15 amp
circuits to provide some light if one breaker trips (someone suggested).

Uncle Monster writes:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 10:10:58 PM UTC-5, Seymore4Head wrote:

You are not supposed to use #14 at all if you have a 20A breaker.

You're right but I've never seen a 20 amp breaker not trip when a #14 wire =
was connected to it and shorted.

It's not short-circuits that one worries about, but rather the
heating caused by the higher resistance of the smaller diameter
conductors over the longer term.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 8:32:17 AM UTC-4, wrote:


This is a good location for an "edison" or multiwire
circuit. He needs AT LEAST 2 circuits, whether 15 or 20 amp.

Feel free to keep making things up. Show us the code sections
that say at least two circuits are required.

If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And it seems that even though it is NOT prohibited by the NEC, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.

If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: house is located in New York, the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires, and each luminaire being rated at 75watts by its manufacturer), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And it seems that even though it is NOT prohibited by the NEC, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.

If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: house is located in New York, the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires, and each luminaire being rated at 75watts by its manufacturer), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And even though the NEC does not prohibit me from wiring this via 12awg and one 20amp breaker, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 7:44:02 AM UTC-5, Art Todesco wrote:
On 9/27/2015 11:02 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 9:29:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Sorry, I should have described more.
These lights are in 4 separate areas/rooms of the basement, on 4 separate switches. Approx 6 lights per room/switch.

Feed a central junction box with a 20 amp circuit using #12. You can tie the 4 separate #14 circuits together in that junction box. Remember to put the junction box where it's accessible. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Sparky Monster

I don't think this is allowed or even a good idea. I'd go with 2 15 amp
circuits to provide some light if one breaker trips (someone suggested).

Actually it would violate code to tie #14 TO #12 on a 20 AMP circuit. The OP wrote that he's using LED bulbs that operate on 9 watts each. The 13 LED bulbs will draw about one amp all together. I'm quite sure a single 15 amp circuit will handle that. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle LED Monster

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 9:52:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: house is located in New York, the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires, and each luminaire being rated at 75watts by its manufacturer), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And even though the NEC does not prohibit me from wiring this via 12awg and one 20amp breaker, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.

I believe GFRE who's the authority on code issues, said that you can
put it all on one 14 amp circuit if you want to. I agree with two circuits
being marginally better though, from the blackout standpoint. But I
can't recall a breaker here ever tripping on a circuit that is dedicated
to lighting. I can recall plenty of cases where the utility has gone
down, plunging everything into darkness. Since that's survivable and
in my world actually occurs with some frequency, the additional benefit
of having two lighting circuits is a nit, IMO.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 8:52:28 AM UTC-5, wrote:
If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: house is located in New York, the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires, and each luminaire being rated at 75watts by its manufacturer), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And even though the NEC does not prohibit me from wiring this via 12awg and one 20amp breaker, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.

That's what you should do and it will keep you out of trouble if it's ever inspected. I have lamps plugged into wall outlets so if the lighting circuit trips, I have light. I even use LED bulbs in my desk lights which are plugged into the UPS units on my computer table. If you're worried about safety, put up an LED emergency light in your basement hallway or stairwell. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Basement Monster

ultimately whats the cost and work effort between 2 15 amp lighting circuits, or one perhaps code compliant but questionable single circuit alternative.

better to go with the 2 15 amp circuits....

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 11:10:28 PM UTC-4, Don Y wrote:
circuit so I can let light stream in through an open doorway, etc.

Also, have you considered using LED *fixtures*?

That would seem to be the best observation. OP is worried
about 75W times X number of fixtures, etc. For new work, the
obvious solution today is an LED fixture that is just that
and won't accept an incandescent.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 00:32:25 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:


I've repaired a lot of melted wiring that never tripped a breaker but luckily it was in UL listed boxes and enclosures. It was usually due to a bad connection that cause increasing resistance with temperature. Some even arced but didn't trip the breaker which wasn't an arc fault type. o_O

U/L does not certify that there will not be a fire, only that it will
be totally contained in the equipment.

An overload is simply having too much load on the wire. Short circuit
protection is a bolted fault where there is essentially no limit to
the current but the resistance of the wire and the breaker, An 18 ga
wire, less than 50 feet long will operate a 20 a breaker in a bolted
fault.

At least that is the thinking.

You can still get in plenty of trouble with extension cords but we
were talking about lamps.

I worked with #14 high temp silicone and fiberglass insulated wire in some circuits and that stuff was carrying much more than 15 amps. I did come across something about uninsulated conductors in open air being rated at much higher current than insulated wire. I remember reading about power strips and extension cords not being allowed in New York City. Are you familiar with the strict limits on the use of extension cords in NYC? o_O

No idea but I do know NYC has adopted the NEC after 100 years of
having their own code.
That doesn't mean all the inspectors agree.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 05:41:27 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/28/2015 5:34 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 20:11:09 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/27/2015 7:09 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:31:43 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

Hi. I'm laying out my basement lighting. I expect to have 25 recessed lights, each is 75watt max rating (even though I will use LED, I know I must still assume max rating of fixture). 25x75=1875watts/120V = 15.6amps.
So, I cannot use one 15amp breaker and 14awg wire.
Can I wire all the lights with 12awg and a 20amp breaker?
All comments appreciated.

Thanks
Theodore
No. You are limited to the number of "devices" on the circuit
Generally accepted as 8 on 15 amp and 12 on 20 IIRC.. I'd wire it on 2
circuits, with either 2 rings, or rows, or every second lamp on
opposite circuits.
I'd use an edison circuit,or at least a double (120/240) breaker
powering a 2 pole contactor controlled by a single switch if you want
all lights on at once all the time. I have an application where 3
circuits are controlled by a 3 pole (3 phase) contactor controlling 3
circuits of lighting on one switch - 12 potlights per circuit, 20 amp
breakers. Originally 75 watt incandescents, currently running 9 watt
LEDs.

That applies to *outlets* (180VA per single/dual), not circuits that are
used exclusively for hardwired lighting devices.

As long as he doesn't tack on "one" convenience outlet he might get
away with it. Local interpretations vary.

This is the problem ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ In most areas, there is no
way to appeal an inspector's ruling. So, if inspector misinterprets the
Code (or, is "having a bad day"), you're stuck with his ruling.


That is not really true but if the boss (AHJ) agrees you are stuck.
In Florida the AHJ is the state, not the local BO. There are no "local
codes".
Just be sure you are right before you go through that process.
At the end of the day, it may come down to what plan review said about
your plans. Not "built to plan" is a slam dunk for the inspector..

OTOH in residential there is no 180va rule on receptacles and you
would win that fight if some inspector tried to enforce it..I have
never seen one try. It is a basic concept in residential load
calculations that you do it by square footage, not receptacle count.
The receptacle placement requirements pretty much assure you will have
plenty you never use.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

If we are going to talk code, lets speak the language so nobody gets
misinformation. ;-)

Point taken and agreed. To summarize and rephrase: the subject is a lighting circuit(s) on which there will be 4 groups of luminaires (one group in each "room" of the basement, and each group having 4-6 luminaires), and each group is activated via separate switches; and NO receptacles will be installed on this/these dedicated circuits.

And it seems that even though it is NOT prohibited by the NEC, the concensus is that I should split this into two 15amp lighting circuits for two reasons: easier to work with 14awg, and better design such that a tripped breaker wont plunge the entire basement into darkness.

Did I get all that right?
All comments appreciated.
Yup, legally it could all be on a single 15 amp circuit but that might
be a bad "design" decision.

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 07:14:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

If you're worried about safety, put up an LED emergency light in your basement hallway or stairwell. ^_^

Excellent idea for anyone.

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 11:40:54 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 07:14:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

If you're worried about safety, put up an LED emergency light in your basement hallway or stairwell. ^_^

Excellent idea for anyone.

I have a bunch of small UPS units which need new 12 volt batteries that I can get for $10 each. I plan to replace the batteries and connect one small ups to each LED table lamp in the house. I already have 3kw capacity with all the ups units around the house on all the computers and network gear. I'd be sitting at the computer working and the only way I knew there was a power failure was because of the clicking and beeping from the ups units. I've never bought a new ups for myself, everything I have is rescued and repaired. ^_^

[8~{} Uncle Backup Monster

On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 16:10:27 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

On Monday, September 28, 2015 at 11:40:54 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 07:14:38 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster
wrote:

If you're worried about safety, put up an LED emergency light in your basement hallway or stairwell. ^_^

Excellent idea for anyone.

I have a bunch of small UPS units which need new 12 volt batteries that I can get for $10 each. I plan to replace the batteries and connect one small ups to each LED table lamp in the house. I already have 3kw capacity with all the ups units around the house on all the computers and network gear. I'd be sitting at the computer working and the only way I knew there was a power failure was because of the clicking and beeping from the ups units. I've never bought a new ups for myself, everything I have is rescued and repaired. ^_^


I still have one of the old school battery lights with the big
incandescent floods
When the battery dies I may look at a LED replacement although if I
just put LED bulbs in there, it would last forever on the battery.

I do have a switch in it that puts the lights in series if I want and
makes the battery last a real long time.
That is still plenty of walking around light.