We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

What is the nature of your planned cistern? There are cisterns all over San
Francisco in the middle of intersections with traffic running over them.
Ditto in Europe.

Grease interceptors are a form of cistern, and are located in parking lots
behind restaurants, with traffic and parking over them.

What's your deal?

On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast pads made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of molded fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side. ^_^

http://stigerprecast.com/cisterns.php

http://www.vpcfiberglass.com/manhole_covers.shtml

http://www.plastic-mart.com/category...-storage-tanks

http://preview.tinyurl.com/pupkwmn

[8~{} Uncle Pad Monster

On 9/11/2015 4:29 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

What is the nature of your planned cistern? There are cisterns all over San
Francisco in the middle of intersections with traffic running over them.
Ditto in Europe.

Given this is alt.HOME.repair, I wouldn't assume I was looking to
install something in a roadway! :

Grease interceptors are a form of cistern, and are located in parking lots
behind restaurants, with traffic and parking over them.

.... or commercial establishment! The fact that I'm concerned about
supporting any significant mass suggests I'm not keen on building a
STRUCTURE to support such a mass.

What's your deal?

We want to store irrigation (non potable) water. We don't want a big, ugly
250 cu ft container (plastic, stone, etc.) sitting out for all to see
(and wasting space in the yard).

We don't want to have to convert the area above it to a "patio"
just to carry any pedestrian loads, either. Ideally, we want to
bury it (them?) and not have them visibly noticeable *or* have to
cordon off the area telling friends "Don't walk over there because
you'll fall *into* the cistern."

On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit large
for a septic tank!

would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts. Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2015 4:29 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

What is the nature of your planned cistern? There are cisterns all over
San
Francisco in the middle of intersections with traffic running over them.
Ditto in Europe.

Given this is alt.HOME.repair, I wouldn't assume I was looking to
install something in a roadway! :

why? I have a driveway and you mention parking cars.


Grease interceptors are a form of cistern, and are located in parking
lots
behind restaurants, with traffic and parking over them.

... or commercial establishment! The fact that I'm concerned about
supporting any significant mass suggests I'm not keen on building a
STRUCTURE to support such a mass.


There is no "stucture" here. They dig a hole and drop in a prefab.

What's your deal?

We want to store irrigation (non potable) water. We don't want a big,
ugly
250 cu ft container (plastic, stone, etc.) sitting out for all to see
(and wasting space in the yard).

We don't want to have to convert the area above it to a "patio"
just to carry any pedestrian loads, either. Ideally, we want to
bury it (them?) and not have them visibly noticeable *or* have to
cordon off the area telling friends "Don't walk over there because
you'll fall *into* the cistern."

If you don't want help, don't ask.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large
for a septic tank!

not necessarily.


would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast
pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

looking at that picture, I think you can walk on top of that tank even
without it being buried.


As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of
molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!


You sound like you are afraid of a little work, digging a hole.

I don't understand your responses here.

Ask the tank manufacturer, dig a hole, install, cover it up. Done.

Stop wasting our time.

On 09/11/2015 07:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

If you buy a cistern from a reputable source, they will have
reliable documented engineering answers for you.

If you buy from McChinaHarborFrightBigBoxSupermart, maybe you
should offer Coast Guard approved life vests to your party-guests
when they go near your new cistern.

"Tommy Silva" wrote in message
...
On 09/11/2015 07:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

If you buy a cistern from a reputable source, they will have
reliable documented engineering answers for you.

If you buy from McChinaHarborFrightBigBoxSupermart, maybe you
should offer Coast Guard approved life vests to your party-guests
when they go near your new cistern.

I looked he http://www.watertanks.com/category/115/

For their 1000 gallon tank, they say it can withstand 400 psf.

It can be buried up to 28" deep, so let's say two feet.

One cu. ft. of soil weighs about 78 pounds, so 156 psf for two feet of dirt
fill.

400 psf - 156 psf = 244 psf.

Assuming a big guy weighs 250 pounds and his footprint is 1 sq. ft., that
guy is right about at the limit. But the tank surely is overengineered for
the 400 psf specification, the tank is likely to not be empty, and there is
lateral spread of the guy's weight over the 2 foot depth to the tank. And
the big guy is not going to be doing jumping jacks (little people may, and
no problem). More people - not a problem, as there is a bigger footprint
for their weight (more feet).

I don't see a problem, but you might put heavier foot traffic off to the
side, and use the cistern area as an ancillary area. But kids or people
walking on it, etc. should not be a problem.

I don't know the price difference between plastic and concrete, or
maintenance/lifespan comparisons, but obviously the concrete would be more
robust.


Oh, maybe you don't want the local cheerleading squad to be practicing their
human pyramids over the plastic cistern area.

On 9/12/2015 5:39 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large for a septic tank!

not necessarily.

You size a septic tank at roughly 1.5-2X the daily effluent volume.
So, about 1300G of effluent PER DAY. A family of 4 will typically
consume half that assuming each person takes a LENGTHY shower each day,
two loads of laundry (not an HE washer), 6 trips per person to the
toilet and two runs of the dishwasher. And, that assumes *all* that
water is fed through the septic system (none is consumed, processed
as grey water, etc.)

would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast
pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Math error. 2000G displace 267 cu ft. A sample 2000G tank (chosen randomly)
displaces 378 cu ft and has a footprint of 86 sq ft. Assume you put 2 ft of
soil atop the tank means another 172 cu ft (2*86) of soil. So, 550 cu ft
of soil, assuming you don't have to *shade* the underside of the tank in any
way *or* move any other soil to get water *into* and out of the tank.

At 27 cu ft / cu yd, that's 20 cu yds. (sorry, we can't *all* do this sort
of math in our *heads* like you??)

Would you be happier had I said:
We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing *20* yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

looking at that picture, I think you can walk on top of that tank even
without it being buried.

Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an "unpleasant
surprise?

As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of
molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!

You sound like you are afraid of a little work, digging a hole.

I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

I moved 20 tons of stone into the back yard with a wheelbarrow.

I felled six 40 ft trees with a bow saw.

I don't think anyone in the neighborhood would claim I'm afraid of
"a little work".

I don't understand your responses here.

Ask the tank manufacturer, dig a hole, install, cover it up. Done.

Stop wasting our time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take you away from that BRAIN SURGERY you were
performing. Feel free to add my name to your kill file -- I'll assume
you have and won't bother reading your replies; they don't seem to be very
informative.

On 9/12/2015 6:23 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Tommy Silva" wrote in message
...
On 09/11/2015 07:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

If you buy a cistern from a reputable source, they will have
reliable documented engineering answers for you.

If you buy from McChinaHarborFrightBigBoxSupermart, maybe you
should offer Coast Guard approved life vests to your party-guests
when they go near your new cistern.

I looked he http://www.watertanks.com/category/115/

For their 1000 gallon tank, they say it can withstand 400 psf.

It can be buried up to 28" deep, so let's say two feet.

One cu. ft. of soil weighs about 78 pounds, so 156 psf for two feet of dirt
fill.

400 psf - 156 psf = 244 psf.

Soil weight varies with composition. The soil *removed* from the ground
is typically over 100 pounds per cubic foot (high clay content). Replacing
it with a sandier mix can make things even worse.

Assuming a big guy weighs 250 pounds and his footprint is 1 sq. ft., that
guy is right about at the limit. But the tank surely is overengineered for
the 400 psf specification, the tank is likely to not be empty, and there is

The tank is likely to be BONE DRY for 10 months out of the year.

lateral spread of the guy's weight over the 2 foot depth to the tank. And
the big guy is not going to be doing jumping jacks (little people may, and

Ever have a scrimmage in your yard? Or, are you a couch potato? What sort
of impact that 250 pound guy make when another 250 pound guy pounces on
him and they both fall to the ground (the "load" isn't evenly distributed
over the length of their bodies)? Or, the next guy who "piles on" just
for fun?

What if a picnic bench is positioned there? Four guys sitting on it.
All that weight conveyed to the four narrow bench legs.

Or, a swing set with its *dynamic* load conveyed to four ~3" poles
that support it?

no problem). More people - not a problem, as there is a bigger footprint
for their weight (more feet).

I don't see a problem, but you might put heavier foot traffic off to the
side, and use the cistern area as an ancillary area. But kids or people
walking on it, etc. should not be a problem.

I don't know the price difference between plastic and concrete, or
maintenance/lifespan comparisons, but obviously the concrete would be more
robust.

Oh, maybe you don't want the local cheerleading squad to be practicing their
human pyramids over the plastic cistern area.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/12/2015 6:23 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Tommy Silva" wrote in message
...
On 09/11/2015 07:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

If you buy a cistern from a reputable source, they will have
reliable documented engineering answers for you.

If you buy from McChinaHarborFrightBigBoxSupermart, maybe you
should offer Coast Guard approved life vests to your party-guests
when they go near your new cistern.

I looked he http://www.watertanks.com/category/115/

For their 1000 gallon tank, they say it can withstand 400 psf.

It can be buried up to 28" deep, so let's say two feet.

One cu. ft. of soil weighs about 78 pounds, so 156 psf for two feet of
dirt
fill.

400 psf - 156 psf = 244 psf.

Soil weight varies with composition. The soil *removed* from the ground
is typically over 100 pounds per cubic foot (high clay content).
Replacing
it with a sandier mix can make things even worse.

Assuming a big guy weighs 250 pounds and his footprint is 1 sq. ft., that
guy is right about at the limit. But the tank surely is overengineered
for
the 400 psf specification, the tank is likely to not be empty, and there
is

The tank is likely to be BONE DRY for 10 months out of the year.

lateral spread of the guy's weight over the 2 foot depth to the tank.
And
the big guy is not going to be doing jumping jacks (little people may,
and

Ever have a scrimmage in your yard? Or, are you a couch potato? What
sort
of impact that 250 pound guy make when another 250 pound guy pounces on
him and they both fall to the ground (the "load" isn't evenly distributed
over the length of their bodies)? Or, the next guy who "piles on" just
for fun?

What if a picnic bench is positioned there? Four guys sitting on it.
All that weight conveyed to the four narrow bench legs.

Or, a swing set with its *dynamic* load conveyed to four ~3" poles
that support it?

no problem). More people - not a problem, as there is a bigger
footprint
for their weight (more feet).

I don't see a problem, but you might put heavier foot traffic off to the
side, and use the cistern area as an ancillary area. But kids or people
walking on it, etc. should not be a problem.

I don't know the price difference between plastic and concrete, or
maintenance/lifespan comparisons, but obviously the concrete would be
more
robust.

Oh, maybe you don't want the local cheerleading squad to be practicing
their
human pyramids over the plastic cistern area.


Go with a concrete cistern. You value your sleep, don't you.

Seriously, if this is to be put on a small parcel where the cistern area is
to receive heavy use, buy yourself the peace of mind now and over the longer
term.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/12/2015 5:39 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as
to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated
mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern
will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover?
That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large for a septic tank!

not necessarily.

You size a septic tank at roughly 1.5-2X the daily effluent volume.
So, about 1300G of effluent PER DAY. A family of 4 will typically
consume half that assuming each person takes a LENGTHY shower each day,
two loads of laundry (not an HE washer), 6 trips per person to the
toilet and two runs of the dishwasher. And, that assumes *all* that
water is fed through the septic system (none is consumed, processed
as grey water, etc.)

I'll stick with my "not necessarily" response. You cannot speak for all
requirmenets, for all people, throughout the country.


would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I
don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast
pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Math error. 2000G displace 267 cu ft. A sample 2000G tank (chosen
randomly)
displaces 378 cu ft and has a footprint of 86 sq ft. Assume you put 2 ft
of
soil atop the tank means another 172 cu ft (2*86) of soil. So, 550 cu ft
of soil, assuming you don't have to *shade* the underside of the tank in
any
way *or* move any other soil to get water *into* and out of the tank.

At 27 cu ft / cu yd, that's 20 cu yds. (sorry, we can't *all* do this
sort
of math in our *heads* like you??)

Would you be happier had I said:
We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing *20* yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

I would be happier if you had done the research with the manufacturer and
asked the retailer of these cisterns.


Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

looking at that picture, I think you can walk on top of that tank even
without it being buried.

Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT
KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an "unpleasant
surprise?

you previously mocked me for saying there were cisterns located in roadways,
now you are talking about use akin to a roadway.

of course you cannot put a spa on top of the plastic tank. I won't do the
math for you, but the specs I dug up (why didn't you?) are the starting
point.


As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of
molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by
side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!

You sound like you are afraid of a little work, digging a hole.

I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

what a stud you are!


I moved 20 tons of stone into the back yard with a wheelbarrow.

you da man!


I felled six 40 ft trees with a bow saw.

my heart be still!


I don't think anyone in the neighborhood would claim I'm afraid of
"a little work".

I don't understand your responses here.

Ask the tank manufacturer, dig a hole, install, cover it up. Done.

Stop wasting our time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take you away from that BRAIN SURGERY you were
performing. Feel free to add my name to your kill file -- I'll assume
you have and won't bother reading your replies; they don't seem to be very
informative.

aw, don't get your hopes up. So, I guess you have more brawn than brains.
That's ok, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

On 9/12/2015 6:51 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as
to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated
mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern
will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover?
That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large for a septic tank!

not necessarily.

You size a septic tank at roughly 1.5-2X the daily effluent volume.
So, about 1300G of effluent PER DAY. A family of 4 will typically
consume half that assuming each person takes a LENGTHY shower each day,
two loads of laundry (not an HE washer), 6 trips per person to the
toilet and two runs of the dishwasher. And, that assumes *all* that
water is fed through the septic system (none is consumed, processed
as grey water, etc.)

I'll stick with my "not necessarily" response. You cannot speak for all
requirmenets, for all people, throughout the country.

Did I ask "for all people"?
"We're considering installing a 2000G cistern."

would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I
don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast
pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Math error. 2000G displace 267 cu ft. A sample 2000G tank (chosen
randomly)
displaces 378 cu ft and has a footprint of 86 sq ft. Assume you put 2 ft
of
soil atop the tank means another 172 cu ft (2*86) of soil. So, 550 cu ft
of soil, assuming you don't have to *shade* the underside of the tank in
any
way *or* move any other soil to get water *into* and out of the tank.

At 27 cu ft / cu yd, that's 20 cu yds. (sorry, we can't *all* do this
sort
of math in our *heads* like you??)

Would you be happier had I said:
We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing *20* yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

I would be happier if you had done the research with the manufacturer and
asked the retailer of these cisterns.

And retailers ALWAYS tell you the honest, unqualified truth! Are you
tat naive to not ask others WITH FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE as to their
ACTUAL experiences before undertaking something of this magnitude?

Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

looking at that picture, I think you can walk on top of that tank even
without it being buried.

Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT
KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an "unpleasant
surprise?

you previously mocked me for saying there were cisterns located in roadways,
now you are talking about use akin to a roadway.

A spa is hardly a roadway. Nor is it unheard of to have one in your back
yard! The neighbor used a bob cat to spread *his* 20 yards of stone in *his*
backyard; it doesn't seem far fetched to expect someone else (especially
a *contractor* hired to do that sort of work!) to use similar types of
equipment.

Another neighbor rented a back hoe to excavate the trench for a new
electrical service.

Other neighbors have *boats*, motorhomes, etc. parked "on their lawns".

People expect the ground to literally *be* "terra firma". They don't
expect it to give 'way to a buried plastic vault!

of course you cannot put a spa on top of the plastic tank. I won't do the
math for you, but the specs I dug up (why didn't you?) are the starting
point.

As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of
molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by
side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!

You sound like you are afraid of a little work, digging a hole.

I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

what a stud you are!

Yeah, all the gals marvel at my physique and intellect!

I moved 20 tons of stone into the back yard with a wheelbarrow.

you da man!

I felled six 40 ft trees with a bow saw.

my heart be still!

Well, *you* seemed intimidated by a similar chore. I just wanted you to
know there are those of us that *aren't*.

I don't think anyone in the neighborhood would claim I'm afraid of
"a little work".

I don't understand your responses here.

Ask the tank manufacturer, dig a hole, install, cover it up. Done.

Stop wasting our time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take you away from that BRAIN SURGERY you were
performing. Feel free to add my name to your kill file -- I'll assume
you have and won't bother reading your replies; they don't seem to be very
informative.

aw, don't get your hopes up. So, I guess you have more brawn than brains.
That's ok, the world needs ditch diggers, too.

What two digits are on *your* "rat"? (figure it out, Einstein)

One thing's for sure... you're definitely "spent"!

On 9/12/2015 6:44 AM, taxed and spent wrote:

Go with a concrete cistern. You value your sleep, don't you.

Seriously, if this is to be put on a small parcel where the cistern area is
to receive heavy use, buy yourself the peace of mind now and over the longer
term.

A 2000G prefab concrete tank weighs more than 10T. A plastic one
weighs ~600lbs. Have you considered the shipping costs for the
two options? And, the crane that would be required to lift the
concrete tank into the back yard?

Alternatively, you could build one on-site -- a lot more time
and labor, inspections, etc.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/12/2015 6:44 AM, taxed and spent wrote:

Go with a concrete cistern. You value your sleep, don't you.

Seriously, if this is to be put on a small parcel where the cistern area
is
to receive heavy use, buy yourself the peace of mind now and over the
longer
term.

A 2000G prefab concrete tank weighs more than 10T. A plastic one
weighs ~600lbs. Have you considered the shipping costs for the
two options? And, the crane that would be required to lift the
concrete tank into the back yard?

Alternatively, you could build one on-site -- a lot more time
and labor, inspections, etc.


I don't know where you are (hopefully quite distant), but my experience has
been to call up, have a precast Jensen unit brought over to the hole that is
ready and waiting, and they drop it in with their crane that is mounted on
their delivery truck. No fuss no muss. I don't know the cost comparison
(figure it out per year of life), and I don't care about the weight - the
crane handled it just fine. And I do not worry about anything - cars and
trucks (yes, TRUCKS!) drive and park over it. Done.

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/12/2015 6:51 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as
to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure
we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would
have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated
mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern
will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people
(party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover?
That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large for a septic tank!

not necessarily.

You size a septic tank at roughly 1.5-2X the daily effluent volume.
So, about 1300G of effluent PER DAY. A family of 4 will typically
consume half that assuming each person takes a LENGTHY shower each day,
two loads of laundry (not an HE washer), 6 trips per person to the
toilet and two runs of the dishwasher. And, that assumes *all* that
water is fed through the septic system (none is consumed, processed
as grey water, etc.)

I'll stick with my "not necessarily" response. You cannot speak for all
requirmenets, for all people, throughout the country.

Did I ask "for all people"?
"We're considering installing a 2000G cistern."

"No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit large
for a septic tank!"

You admit you are unfamiliar, but you know your "suspicions" are right.

"for **a** septic tank". Not "MY" septic tank.





Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT
KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an
"unpleasant
surprise?

you previously mocked me for saying there were cisterns located in
roadways,
now you are talking about use akin to a roadway.

A spa is hardly a roadway. Nor is it unheard of to have one in your back
yard!


"The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will be
going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc."

No mention of a spa! So, the question boils down to: "what the heck is your
question, dude?"





The neighbor used a bob cat to spread *his* 20 yards of stone in *his*
backyard; it doesn't seem far fetched to expect someone else (especially
a *contractor* hired to do that sort of work!) to use similar types of
equipment.

Another neighbor rented a back hoe to excavate the trench for a new
electrical service.

Other neighbors have *boats*, motorhomes, etc. parked "on their lawns".

People expect the ground to literally *be* "terra firma". They don't
expect it to give 'way to a buried plastic vault!


"E.g., I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that
concentrated mass."


But you mocked me when I mentioned cisterns under roadways! You are sure
you can't park a car over the plastic cistern, now you want to park a
MOTORHOME!




I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

what a stud you are!

Yeah, all the gals marvel at my physique and intellect!

perhaps the physique.

On 9/12/2015 6:26 AM, Don Y wrote:

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Math error. 2000G displace 267 cu ft. A sample 2000G tank (chosen randomly)
displaces 378 cu ft and has a footprint of 86 sq ft. Assume you put 2 ft of
soil atop the tank means another 172 cu ft (2*86) of soil. So, 550 cu ft
of soil, assuming you don't have to *shade* the underside of the tank in any
way *or* move any other soil to get water *into* and out of the tank.

Actually, it's more like 720 cu ft (the 172 cu ft covering the tank has to be
REMOVED to put the tank in place, then REPLACED once it's been sited).
So, around 26 cu yds (i.e., my "30" shirt cuff estimate was within ~10%)

On 9/12/2015 7:58 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT
KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an
"unpleasant
surprise?

you previously mocked me for saying there were cisterns located in
roadways,
now you are talking about use akin to a roadway.

A spa is hardly a roadway. Nor is it unheard of to have one in your back
yard!

"The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will be
going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc."

"The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be GOING FORWARD: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, ETC."
----------------------^^^

No mention of a spa! So, the question boils down to: "what the heck is your
question, dude?"

Are you another one of these folks who is incapable of abstract thought?
Do you have to have every possible contingency laid out for you before
you can make a decision or render advice? Can you not imagine how a yard
is used?

I didn't mention "above ground swimming pool", either! Yet, someone
THINKING about future uses of a yard *could* imagine such a thing
(pools here are IN the ground, not ON the ground). Nor the
motor home, boat, etc.

I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

what a stud you are!

Yeah, all the gals marvel at my physique and intellect!

perhaps the physique.

Oh, you *don't* want to start comparing intellects, little person. :

The fact that you were unable to even IMAGINE the sorts of uses I've
outlined above suggests you're not quite ready for prime time!

(sigh) Don't fret: "I guess you have more brawn than brains. That's
ok, the world needs ditch diggers, too."

"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/12/2015 7:58 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT
KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future
homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of
that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an
"unpleasant
surprise?

you previously mocked me for saying there were cisterns located in
roadways,
now you are talking about use akin to a roadway.

A spa is hardly a roadway. Nor is it unheard of to have one in your
back
yard!

"The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be
going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc."

"The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern
will
be GOING FORWARD: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, ETC."
----------------------^^^

No mention of a spa! So, the question boils down to: "what the heck is
your
question, dude?"

Are you another one of these folks who is incapable of abstract thought?
Do you have to have every possible contingency laid out for you before
you can make a decision or render advice? Can you not imagine how a yard
is used?


Silly me. I thought you knew what you were asking. Go with the concrete
cistern.

Don Y wrote:

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit large
for a septic tank!

Not really. I have a 1500 gallon, 3 chamber tank as a part of an advanced
treatment unit. It's poly - OK to walk over, but I wouldn't park or drive over
it. Shouldn't think the precast concrete ones would be a problem. Best to check
with the supplier though.

By the way - we tend to think of routine residential weights (i.e. cars). Don't
forget the occasional delivery/moving truck.

On 9/12/2015 8:49 AM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Don Y wrote:

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit large
for a septic tank!

Not really. I have a 1500 gallon, 3 chamber tank as a part of an advanced
treatment unit. It's poly - OK to walk over, but I wouldn't park or drive over
it. Shouldn't think the precast concrete ones would be a problem. Best to check
with the supplier though.

Is it a single unit? Or, three interconnected tanks acting as a 3-chamber
tank? Presumably, the partitions between chambers give the tank extra
load carrying strength (shorter spans between "uprights")? How many folks
in your household to require such a unit? (or, is the size a consequence of
its role as "advanced" treatment?)

How far below grade is yours? What type of soil? Aside from grass, does
it support any plantings? Who chose the location? What precautions have
you taken to ensure future home owners are aware of its location and
restrictions on use of that portion of the "yard"? What instructions
did the *installer* leave with you regarding this type of use? (Or,
did he just worry about getting paid?)

[Soil here is not appropriate for leech field so few homes would be
capable of supporting a septic system. As such, no one would *expect*
something of that size/volume to be buried in the yard. Other folks
with water catchments are located above grade -- invariably, but
visibly, placed (by the folks who are very happy to sell them to these
homeowners) in locations that don't satisfy city code. E.g., when the
homes are later resold, they'll "suddenly" become a problem.]

Concrete would be prohibitively expensive (price, shipping, delivery,
installation -- I can't "man-handle" a concrete unit into place *after*
it's been delivered/placed) and logistically impractical. I can get
a 600 pound plastic tank into position with a couple of borrowed backs.

By the way - we tend to think of routine residential weights (i.e. cars). Don't
forget the occasional delivery/moving truck.

Where *this* is located, a delivery truck would never be expected
(unless it was a piece of construction equipment brought on site by
a future subcontractor). If we had to go with something like a
concrete unit, it would have to end up in the *front* yard. And,
there, it would not be unheard of for folks to park/drive over it.

We don't have "lawns", per se, so in a pinch, (e.g., large
gathering) folks have been known to use their "front lawns" as
parking lots; there's no visible sign of this use after the fact.

Don Y wrote:

Is it a single unit? Or, three interconnected tanks acting as a 3-chamber
tank? Presumably, the partitions between chambers give the tank extra
load carrying strength (shorter spans between "uprights")? How many folks
in your household to require such a unit? (or, is the size a consequence of
its role as "advanced" treatment?)

It's a single unit with two internal partitions. Sort of like a central ball
with two wings attached. Three chambers are reqquired to qualify as an advanced
treatment unit. First chamber is called the trash tank. It works like a standard
aerobic septic tank. Second (center) tank has a compressor driven bubbler for
aerobic decomposition. Third tank is a staging tank for the pump that pushes
effluent out to the field through a network of spider pipes. ATUs are required
when there is insufficient top soil to put a standard field in. In our case, we
have about 6" of dirt before hitting fractured limestone.

How far below grade is yours? What type of soil? Aside from grass, does
it support any plantings? Who chose the location? What precautions have
you taken to ensure future home owners are aware of its location and
restrictions on use of that portion of the "yard"? What instructions
did the *installer* leave with you regarding this type of use? (Or,
did he just worry about getting paid?)

The actual tank top is about 6-10 inches under grade, but there are three risers
that are exposed. The builder chose the location, but given that the house is
built on the side of a mountain, there wasn't a huge amount of choice where it
had to go. The hole for the tank had to be jack hammered into stone. Fortunately
it's on the opposide side of the house from the driveway, so no possibility of
driving over it.

The county requires a licensed maintenence company inspect it every 6 months.
That and the operating instructions are included in a house manual we keep when
it comes time to sell.

On 9/12/2015 1:25 PM, Arthur Conan Doyle wrote:
Don Y wrote:

Is it a single unit? Or, three interconnected tanks acting as a 3-chamber
tank? Presumably, the partitions between chambers give the tank extra
load carrying strength (shorter spans between "uprights")? How many folks
in your household to require such a unit? (or, is the size a consequence of
its role as "advanced" treatment?)

It's a single unit with two internal partitions. Sort of like a central ball
with two wings attached.

So, three conjoined spheres? Or, a sphere with a "box" growing out of each
ear?

Three chambers are reqquired to qualify as an advanced
treatment unit. First chamber is called the trash tank. It works like a standard
aerobic septic tank. Second (center) tank has a compressor driven bubbler for
aerobic decomposition.

Thus, you're moving much of the functionality of the field *into* the
tank.

Third tank is a staging tank for the pump that pushes
effluent out to the field through a network of spider pipes. ATUs are required
when there is insufficient top soil to put a standard field in. In our case, we
have about 6" of dirt before hitting fractured limestone.

It would be a similar problem here -- though not with bedrock but, rather,
just the high clay content of our soil. E.g., I can dig a 3 ft deep hole,
fill it with water from a garden hose and come back to find it essentially
unchanged a day later.

[You can rent a shovel attachment for a jack-hammer if you intend to
do any serious "planting", herre]

How far below grade is yours? What type of soil? Aside from grass, does
it support any plantings? Who chose the location? What precautions have
you taken to ensure future home owners are aware of its location and
restrictions on use of that portion of the "yard"? What instructions
did the *installer* leave with you regarding this type of use? (Or,
did he just worry about getting paid?)

The actual tank top is about 6-10 inches under grade, but there are three risers
that are exposed.

So, it's location is fairly obvious to anyone -- even folks who might not
know *what* it is will likely recognize that there is *something* buried
there. In our case, we want to hide the day-to-day existence of the
tank (else we could opt for the easy solution of siting it ABOVE grade).

The builder chose the location, but given that the house is
built on the side of a mountain, there wasn't a huge amount of choice where it
had to go. The hole for the tank had to be jack hammered into stone. Fortunately
it's on the opposide side of the house from the driveway, so no possibility of
driving over it.

If we end up putting a tank in the front yard, it will be located alongside
the driveway -- the intuitive location for "extra vehicles" to park :
Hence the desire to get the tank into the back or side yards where it is
less likely to be "casually" driven over.

[A guest of our neighbor parked her car on the edge of the roadway -- up
beyond the curb line. In doing so, managed to set one wheel on the
cast iron "box" that surrounds the neighbor's below-grade water meter.
Expensive repair. We like to ANTICIPATE such problems before being victimized
by them!]

The county requires a licensed maintenence company inspect it every 6 months.

Ouch! Though it appears you have no other (sewer) alternatives. Do you also
recycle grey water (to keep the load down on the septic system)?

What sorts of problems is the inspection *intended* to catch? And, are
these *real* problems or just "possible" problems?

[E.g., here, our irrigation systems are required to have anti-siphon
mechanisms built in (at least 12" above the highest point) to ensure
an air break if municipal water pressure falls (or, is locally reduced
from pumping at a hydrant, etc.). But, I suspect that isn't a real
problem as many homes do NOT comply with this requirement (and we've
not heard of water supply contamination as a result of drawing
"surface water" back into the system]

That and the operating instructions are included in a house manual we keep when
it comes time to sell.

We would obviously have to let future owners know of its location.
They'd wonder about the extra electrics, plumbing, etc. And, it would
be an *asset* so we'd not want to hide the fact.

OTOH, people forget stuff. Like the folks who dug up the gas main
down the block, the neighbor who managed to cut the CATV feed for
the neighborhood, *me* forgetting where all the low voltage landscape
lighting cables are located, etc.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:14:14 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/11/2015 4:29 PM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned
as to how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g.,
I'm sure we won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the
cistern would have compromised the ability of the "soil" to
support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the
cistern will be going forward: walking on it, small groups
of people (party-goers) *standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to
protect?

What is the nature of your planned cistern? There are cisterns all over San
Francisco in the middle of intersections with traffic running over them.
Ditto in Europe.

Given this is alt.HOME.repair, I wouldn't assume I was looking to
install something in a roadway! :

Grease interceptors are a form of cistern, and are located in parking lots
behind restaurants, with traffic and parking over them.

... or commercial establishment! The fact that I'm concerned about
supporting any significant mass suggests I'm not keen on building a
STRUCTURE to support such a mass.

What's your deal?

We want to store irrigation (non potable) water. We don't want a big, ugly
250 cu ft container (plastic, stone, etc.) sitting out for all to see
(and wasting space in the yard).

We don't want to have to convert the area above it to a "patio"
just to carry any pedestrian loads, either. Ideally, we want to
bury it (them?) and not have them visibly noticeable *or* have to
cordon off the area telling friends "Don't walk over there because
you'll fall *into* the cistern."
Use a precast concrete cistern - basically the same structure as a
concrete septic tank, and you can do anything you do over a septic
tank.

If you bury a standard plastic tank, you need to be more careful, of
course.

On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit large
for a septic tank!

would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts. Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

formula for tank volume in US gallons : Length x width in inches / 231
= gallons per inch of septic tank depth. Multiply this number by
septic tank depth in inches to get gallons

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 06:26:48 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 5:39 AM, taxed and spent wrote:
"Don Y" wrote in message
...
On 9/11/2015 5:51 PM, Uncle Monster wrote:
On Friday, September 11, 2015 at 6:24:34 PM UTC-5, Don Y wrote:
We're considering installing a 2000G cistern. But, I'm concerned as to
how the area *above* the cistern will be impacted. E.g., I'm sure we
won't be able to park a *car* over that area as the cistern would have
compromised the ability of the "soil" to support that concentrated mass.

The question boils down to how *usable* that area above the cistern will
be going forward: walking on it, small groups of people (party-goers)
*standing* on it, etc.

I assume the actual access port will be relatively easy to protect?

Would it fit in a buried concrete septic tank with a concrete cover? That

No experience with septic systems -- but suspect 2000G would be a bit
large for a septic tank!

not necessarily.

You size a septic tank at roughly 1.5-2X the daily effluent volume.
So, about 1300G of effluent PER DAY. A family of 4 will typically
consume half that assuming each person takes a LENGTHY shower each day,
two loads of laundry (not an HE washer), 6 trips per person to the
toilet and two runs of the dishwasher. And, that assumes *all* that
water is fed through the septic system (none is consumed, processed
as grey water, etc.)

would protect it, or you could just use a precast concrete cover. I don't
know the dimensions of your cistern but you might consider the precast
pads

2000G is roughly 250 cubic feet. So, 5x5x10, 4x6x10, 3x8x10, etc.

We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing 30 yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

how do you get from 250 cubic feet to 30 yards?

Math error. 2000G displace 267 cu ft. A sample 2000G tank (chosen randomly)
displaces 378 cu ft and has a footprint of 86 sq ft. Assume you put 2 ft of
soil atop the tank means another 172 cu ft (2*86) of soil. So, 550 cu ft
of soil, assuming you don't have to *shade* the underside of the tank in any
way *or* move any other soil to get water *into* and out of the tank.

At 27 cu ft / cu yd, that's 20 cu yds. (sorry, we can't *all* do this sort
of math in our *heads* like you??)

Would you be happier had I said:
We're not keen on digging a *deep* hole (removing *20* yards of soil is
not a trivial undertaking!) so the form factor would be closer to
3 deep x 8 wide x 10 long -- or thereabouts.

Something like:
http://gototanks.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/425x/040ec09b1e35df139433887a97daa66f/a/c/act2000-lpg_3.jpg

looking at that picture, I think you can walk on top of that tank even
without it being buried.

Could a group of friends at a hosted party casually stand around NOT KNOWING
that there was a chunk of plastic under them? Could a future homeowner
(who hadn't seen the excavated hole) set up a spa/hot tub on top of that
area? Could they drive a (loaded) bob cat over it without an "unpleasant
surprise?

As the top of the tank would want to be *below* grade, figure a foot
or so of soil on top of it means a 4 ft deep hole.

made for use as a base for AC units and generators. Some are made of
molded
fiberglass reinforced plastic and you can use more than one side by side.

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!

You sound like you are afraid of a little work, digging a hole.

I dug a 30" dia stump of of the front yard -- with a shovel. It took 7
tons of soil to fill the hole (in addition to what soil I didn't "lose"
in the process).

I moved 20 tons of stone into the back yard with a wheelbarrow.

I felled six 40 ft trees with a bow saw.

I don't think anyone in the neighborhood would claim I'm afraid of
"a little work".

I don't understand your responses here.

Ask the tank manufacturer, dig a hole, install, cover it up. Done.

Stop wasting our time.

Sorry, I didn't mean to take you away from that BRAIN SURGERY you were
performing. Feel free to add my name to your kill file -- I'll assume
you have and won't bother reading your replies; they don't seem to be very
informative.
As long as the tank is full, not much danger of it collapsing under
any "reasonable" load. When less than full, obviously it would
support less weight.

My brother delivered and installed precast concrete septic tanks and
cisterns for over 10 years - quite a few over 2000 gallons.

A bit more involved than hauling a plastic one home in your pickup and
kicking it into a hole - - -

On 9/12/2015 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

With 5 *occupied* bedrooms (a room in and of itself doesn't require
any sewage treatment).

formula for tank volume in US gallons : Length x width in inches / 231
= gallons per inch of septic tank depth. Multiply this number by
septic tank depth in inches to get gallons

Easier to remember 8G/cu ft for a 10% estimate (8 is an easy multiplier
to deal with; double it 3 times) and a factor of 7.5 for a 1% estimate.
Much easier than dealing with "231" and *division*!

(e.g., 16 pi is ~50 to better than 1%)

On 9/12/2015 2:59 PM, wrote:
As long as the tank is full, not much danger of it collapsing under
any "reasonable" load. When less than full, obviously it would
support less weight.

Rains (which is where the water to fill the tank originates) come twice
a year, here. A month in Summer (technically, "Monsoon") and a month
or so in Winter. We can, theoretically, capture about 20,000G in a
year -- almost evenly split between the two rainy seasons.

But, storing 10K gallons would be a huge undertaking. And, considerably
more expensive. "Incentives" make a 2000G (plastic) tank virtually "free"
if you do the labor yourself (dig hole, plumb irrigation, etc.). Delivery
and setup charges for concrete tank would easily make this a silly
undertaking.

[Water isn't THAT expensive. OTOH, the sewer charges on the water
delivered to your house BUT NEVER PROCESSED THROUGH THE SANITARY SEWER
and taxes make a "virtually free" undertaking reasonable!]

My brother delivered and installed precast concrete septic tanks and
cisterns for over 10 years - quite a few over 2000 gallons.

A bit more involved than hauling a plastic one home in your pickup and
kicking it into a hole - - -

Exactly. No do-overs. It turns into a PAID project instead of a
weekend warrior ordeal.

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:00:52 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

With 5 *occupied* bedrooms (a room in and of itself doesn't require
any sewage treatment).

Tell that to the inspector. When applying for your building permit and
septic permit, if the house has 5 bedrooms and is going to be occupied
by a bachelor hermit, it still needs the 1900 or 2000 gallon septic
tank, or you don't get your permit / occupancy permit.

formula for tank volume in US gallons : Length x width in inches / 231
= gallons per inch of septic tank depth. Multiply this number by
septic tank depth in inches to get gallons

Easier to remember 8G/cu ft for a 10% estimate (8 is an easy multiplier
to deal with; double it 3 times) and a factor of 7.5 for a 1% estimate.
Much easier than dealing with "231" and *division*!

(e.g., 16 pi is ~50 to better than 1%)

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:08:16 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 2:59 PM, wrote:
As long as the tank is full, not much danger of it collapsing under
any "reasonable" load. When less than full, obviously it would
support less weight.

Rains (which is where the water to fill the tank originates) come twice
a year, here. A month in Summer (technically, "Monsoon") and a month
or so in Winter. We can, theoretically, capture about 20,000G in a
year -- almost evenly split between the two rainy seasons.

But, storing 10K gallons would be a huge undertaking. And, considerably
more expensive. "Incentives" make a 2000G (plastic) tank virtually "free"
if you do the labor yourself (dig hole, plumb irrigation, etc.). Delivery
and setup charges for concrete tank would easily make this a silly
undertaking.

[Water isn't THAT expensive. OTOH, the sewer charges on the water
delivered to your house BUT NEVER PROCESSED THROUGH THE SANITARY SEWER
and taxes make a "virtually free" undertaking reasonable!]

My brother delivered and installed precast concrete septic tanks and
cisterns for over 10 years - quite a few over 2000 gallons.

A bit more involved than hauling a plastic one home in your pickup and
kicking it into a hole - - -

Exactly. No do-overs. It turns into a PAID project instead of a
weekend warrior ordeal.
Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a
stormwater run-off fee as well. The more trees you have (and the
bigger) the more discount you get on that - and even rain barrells
give you a discount.

Counting both, it might not take too long to pay for even a concrete
cistern installation (some new homes are getting them as "standard
equipment" the last couple of years. A bonus is you can actually water
the lawn in the dry season (forbidden here all summer) so the cost of
keeping a decent looking lawn would go way down too.

Remember plastic doesn't last forever - you could end up with a small
sink-hole in 20 years or so - - -

On 9/12/2015 6:40 PM, wrote:

Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a

"Expensive" is a relative term. Our water uses are probably double
that of our neighbors as we have half a dozen citrus trees and a
reasonably "lush" landscape (though most of the plants -- besides
the citrus -- are chosen for their low water requirements). We
justify (to ourselves, not the community) our increased water use
by the savings we achieve from having fresh fruit, year-round OJ,
etc.

OTOH, we're not keen on having to pay the sewer fees to "treat"
the water that is never returned *to* the muni supply!

[OToOH, one can argue that we've "diverted" this water somewhat
indefinitely by storing it in fruit]

stormwater run-off fee as well. The more trees you have (and the
bigger) the more discount you get on that - and even rain barrells
give you a discount.

Trees are discouraged due to their water use. All of our "local"
water is sourced from wells -- the rest is "imported" (CAP).
A property owner is responsible for dealing with the water that
falls on their property ON THEIR PROPERTY. We have no real
storm drains, etc. When it rains, the streets are awash with
rapidly flowing water. (it is a routine occurrence for motorists
to be stranded in their vehicles *or* their vehicles swept away
in these rapidly moving waters)

Counting both, it might not take too long to pay for even a concrete
cistern installation (some new homes are getting them as "standard
equipment" the last couple of years. A bonus is you can actually water
the lawn in the dry season (forbidden here all summer) so the cost of
keeping a decent looking lawn would go way down too.

We don't have "lawns"; crushed stone/aggregate covers the hard-pan.
Irrigation is "drip"-based -- bring the water to the individual
plants. Evaporative losses from irrigation (improperly applied
or applied at inopportune times) are ~40%.

If we assume half of our water usage is related to irrigation,
that's still only ~$40/month. Even a $2000 plastic tank with
*no* delivery, installation, plumbing or operational charges
would take more than 4 years just to pay for the tank. Factor in
delivery charges, a crane to hoist a (concrete) tank into place,
and the other charges and it just gets worse.

[This is why folks opt for an "eyesore" sitting above grade on the side
of their home instead of excavating for a more appealing installation]

Remember plastic doesn't last forever - you could end up with a small
sink-hole in 20 years or so - - -

On 9/12/2015 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:00:52 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

With 5 *occupied* bedrooms (a room in and of itself doesn't require
any sewage treatment).

Tell that to the inspector. When applying for your building permit and
septic permit, if the house has 5 bedrooms and is going to be occupied
by a bachelor hermit, it still needs the 1900 or 2000 gallon septic
tank, or you don't get your permit / occupancy permit.

The point is, the requirement is based on the assumption that the home will
see that sort of occupancy. When 6 of us would visit my in-laws, the
3BR home -- and its septic system -- didn't magically resize itself to
deal with our extra waste water creation. It would have been silly for
a home of that size to have been required to support 6-8 occupants.
(why stop at 8? why not size the system for 12??)

On 9/12/2015 10:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/12/2015 6:40 PM, wrote:

Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a

"Expensive" is a relative term. Our water uses are probably double
that of our neighbors as we have half a dozen citrus trees and a
reasonably "lush" landscape (though most of the plants -- besides
the citrus -- are chosen for their low water requirements). We
justify (to ourselves, not the community) our increased water use
by the savings we achieve from having fresh fruit, year-round OJ,
etc.


OTOH, we're not keen on having to pay the sewer fees to "treat"
the water that is never returned *to* the muni supply!

You may be able to exempt some of the water but you'd probably have to
install an outside line for irrigation only. May cost more than you'd
save though.




Trees are discouraged due to their water use.


On the news last week they were showing the giant sequoia trees in the
drought. Said they use 700 gallons a day.

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:16:02 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 6:40 PM, wrote:

Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a

"Expensive" is a relative term. Our water uses are probably double
that of our neighbors as we have half a dozen citrus trees and a
reasonably "lush" landscape (though most of the plants -- besides
the citrus -- are chosen for their low water requirements). We
justify (to ourselves, not the community) our increased water use
by the savings we achieve from having fresh fruit, year-round OJ,
etc.

OTOH, we're not keen on having to pay the sewer fees to "treat"
the water that is never returned *to* the muni supply!

[OToOH, one can argue that we've "diverted" this water somewhat
indefinitely by storing it in fruit]

stormwater run-off fee as well. The more trees you have (and the
bigger) the more discount you get on that - and even rain barrells
give you a discount.

Trees are discouraged due to their water use. All of our "local"
water is sourced from wells

Likewise here - in Waterloo Region in Ontario Canada, one of the
largest metropolitan areas depending on groundwater. Where is "home"
for you?

-- the rest is "imported" (CAP).
A property owner is responsible for dealing with the water that
falls on their property ON THEIR PROPERTY. We have no real
storm drains, etc. When it rains, the streets are awash with
rapidly flowing water. (it is a routine occurrence for motorists
to be stranded in their vehicles *or* their vehicles swept away
in these rapidly moving waters)

Counting both, it might not take too long to pay for even a concrete
cistern installation (some new homes are getting them as "standard
equipment" the last couple of years. A bonus is you can actually water
the lawn in the dry season (forbidden here all summer) so the cost of
keeping a decent looking lawn would go way down too.

We don't have "lawns"; crushed stone/aggregate covers the hard-pan.
Irrigation is "drip"-based -- bring the water to the individual
plants. Evaporative losses from irrigation (improperly applied
or applied at inopportune times) are ~40%.

If we assume half of our water usage is related to irrigation,
that's still only ~$40/month. Even a $2000 plastic tank with
*no* delivery, installation, plumbing or operational charges
would take more than 4 years just to pay for the tank. Factor in
delivery charges, a crane to hoist a (concrete) tank into place,
and the other charges and it just gets worse.

[This is why folks opt for an "eyesore" sitting above grade on the side
of their home instead of excavating for a more appealing installation]

Remember plastic doesn't last forever - you could end up with a small
sink-hole in 20 years or so - - -

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:18:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:00:52 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

With 5 *occupied* bedrooms (a room in and of itself doesn't require
any sewage treatment).

Tell that to the inspector. When applying for your building permit and
septic permit, if the house has 5 bedrooms and is going to be occupied
by a bachelor hermit, it still needs the 1900 or 2000 gallon septic
tank, or you don't get your permit / occupancy permit.

The point is, the requirement is based on the assumption that the home will
see that sort of occupancy. When 6 of us would visit my in-laws, the
3BR home -- and its septic system -- didn't magically resize itself to
deal with our extra waste water creation. It would have been silly for
a home of that size to have been required to support 6-8 occupants.
(why stop at 8? why not size the system for 12??)
That's just the way things are. Standards are set and enforced.

On 9/12/2015 8:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 9/12/2015 10:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/12/2015 6:40 PM, wrote:

Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a

"Expensive" is a relative term. Our water uses are probably double
that of our neighbors as we have half a dozen citrus trees and a
reasonably "lush" landscape (though most of the plants -- besides
the citrus -- are chosen for their low water requirements). We
justify (to ourselves, not the community) our increased water use
by the savings we achieve from having fresh fruit, year-round OJ,
etc.


OTOH, we're not keen on having to pay the sewer fees to "treat"
the water that is never returned *to* the muni supply!

You may be able to exempt some of the water but you'd probably have to install
an outside line for irrigation only. May cost more than you'd save though.

I've already done this to ensure the irrigation water does not flow
through the water softener (why pay to soften water used for irrigation?
we have enough salts in the soil without adding to that!).

I will be monitoring water usage (domestic and irrigation) but there
is no easy way to get the city to install (and read, monthly) a second
water meter just so I can avoid sewer charges.

I suspect if this became a common practice, they would argue the "cost"
of diverting water should be born by these homeowners! You can't "win"
when it comes to rules/regs -- "waste" water and you move into a higher
price bracket; conserve water and they claim we're not using enough to
keep the sewers running efficiently; actually *reduce* your costs and
they argue that rates need to be raised to cover their fixed costs...

We are trying to hit the sweet spot in terms of conservation and cost.
It's not practical to store (in a tank) all the rainwater that we receive
over the course of a rainy season; we'd need upwards of 10,000G capacity.
OTOH, if we can get ~2,000G for "free" (cost of labor), it seems a
worthwhile undertaking if only from a moral point of view. I.e., if we
insist on growing a water intensive crop, at least we should be making
*some* efforts -- beyond our current harvesting -- to minimize our
impact on the rest of the community (so they can use the water we "save"
to put in a new housing development :-/ )

Trees are discouraged due to their water use.

On the news last week they were showing the giant sequoia trees in the
drought. Said they use 700 gallons a day.

I wouldn't doubt it. They're large organisms. Our citrus consume
a signficant amount of water -- though it can be argued that they simply
convert it to other forms (juice/fruit).

On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 23:01:07 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 9/12/2015 10:16 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/12/2015 6:40 PM, wrote:

Around here water is getting quite expensive, and then we have a

"Expensive" is a relative term. Our water uses are probably double
that of our neighbors as we have half a dozen citrus trees and a
reasonably "lush" landscape (though most of the plants -- besides
the citrus -- are chosen for their low water requirements). We
justify (to ourselves, not the community) our increased water use
by the savings we achieve from having fresh fruit, year-round OJ,
etc.


OTOH, we're not keen on having to pay the sewer fees to "treat"
the water that is never returned *to* the muni supply!

You may be able to exempt some of the water but you'd probably have to
install an outside line for irrigation only. May cost more than you'd
save though.


Can't exempt anything here, and irrigation is severly limitted during
the summer "dry season"



Trees are discouraged due to their water use.


On the news last week they were showing the giant sequoia trees in the
drought. Said they use 700 gallons a day.

On 9/12/2015 8:21 PM, wrote:

stormwater run-off fee as well. The more trees you have (and the
bigger) the more discount you get on that - and even rain barrells
give you a discount.

Trees are discouraged due to their water use. All of our "local"
water is sourced from wells

Likewise here - in Waterloo Region in Ontario Canada, one of the
largest metropolitan areas depending on groundwater. Where is "home"
for you?

Southern AZ. Our annual precip is ~11 inches. Of course, city officials
don't want to discourage DEVELOPMENT (despite the fact that it taxes our
limited water resources). So, they'll raise rates, encourage conservation
and start planting the seeds for wastewater reclamation facilities
(toilet-to-tap).

I.e., it makes sense to get as much "capability" as you can reasonably
justify (economically, space-wise, etc.) on hand to reduce the city's
impact on your lifestyle preferences. E.g., we could always *buy*
blood oranges -- but isn't that just like buying bottled water shipped
in from someplace else?? (except in fruit form?)

It also makes sense to be as clever as possible in how you *use* that water.
I.e., the folks (typ businesses) who have *grass* and use "spray irrigation"
during daylight hours are just ****ing away scarce resources. If you can
determine your *actual*, instantaneous irrigation *needs* and address
JUST those, then you can stretch each gallon more efficiently (instead of
just storing the "excess" in the soil or in the atmosphere).

On 9/12/2015 8:22 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 19:18:59 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 6:36 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2015 15:00:52 -0700, Don Y
wrote:

On 9/12/2015 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 23:16:51 -0700, Don Y

We don't want to *see* that there is something buried in the yard.
Otherwise, we might as well save ourselves the excavation work and
just put it *atop* the ground -- as an ugly eyesore! I can hide
the access port (think of it as a manhole cover) relatively easily
(a planting, some sort of lawn furnishing, etc.). But, hiding
something with an ~80 sq ft "footprint" is a bit more challenging!
A 5 bedroom house would require a 2000 gallon septic tank.

With 5 *occupied* bedrooms (a room in and of itself doesn't require
any sewage treatment).

Tell that to the inspector. When applying for your building permit and
septic permit, if the house has 5 bedrooms and is going to be occupied
by a bachelor hermit, it still needs the 1900 or 2000 gallon septic
tank, or you don't get your permit / occupancy permit.

The point is, the requirement is based on the assumption that the home will
see that sort of occupancy. When 6 of us would visit my in-laws, the
3BR home -- and its septic system -- didn't magically resize itself to
deal with our extra waste water creation. It would have been silly for
a home of that size to have been required to support 6-8 occupants.
(why stop at 8? why not size the system for 12??)
That's just the way things are. Standards are set and enforced.

Of course! And, there are reasons *why* those standards exist.
While some see it as "excessive regulation" ("Hey, if I want to put up
a MEAT RENDERING facility on MY property, I should be able to, right??"),
there is usually some logic behind each "imposition". But, many folks
don't want to take the time to consider those -- or, want to condition
them on *their* actual needs (and not the needs of future homeowners,
neighbors, etc.).

E.g., the above grade water storage tanks I mentioned up-thread being
located too close to adjoining properties. Or, the requirement to
"mosquito proof" them. Or, the needs for controlled overflow runoff.