A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside
near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through
his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside
rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used
some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that
inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule
40 PVC.

Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he
said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a
large cable to the joists.

So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically
related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?

Thanks.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside
near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through
his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside
rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used
some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that
inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule
40 PVC.

Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he
said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a
large cable to the joists.

So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically
related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?

Thanks.

I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is
related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a
specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run
along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to
the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any
possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.

In Nevada, a contractor must have an additional contractor license to
install a pool. Based on codes for pool construction. Meaning, a
contractor has a license to build a house, but needs an additional
license for pool construction.

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside
near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through
his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside
rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used
some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that
inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule
40 PVC.

Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he
said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a
large cable to the joists.

So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically
related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?

Thanks.

I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is
related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a
specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run
along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to
the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any
possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.

I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they
enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the
wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:25:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Oren wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

wrote:



A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside

near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through

his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside

rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used

some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that

inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule

40 PVC.



Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he

said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a

large cable to the joists.



So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically

related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?



Thanks.



I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is

related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a

specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run

along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to

the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any

possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.



I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they

enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the

wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.


There isn't anything in NEC that differentiates how a subpanel for
a pool is connected versus any other subpanel. There is no reason I
know of that says wires for a pool or anything else have to be run
in rigid conduit for a subpanel. Here, NJ, very typical to use
appropriate sized cable to go from the basement panel
to the pool subpanel, on the side of the house. If they had an
existing code compliant subpanel that the pool could run off, no
reason to go rework that with conduit inside the house, which is
what it looks like you;re saying they did.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 19:25:41 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they
enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the
wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.

I appreciate that. I was simply trying to say conduit may be needed
to protect 220V wires, reduce potential for water intrusion, and from
possible accidental damage. Worth a look into the codes. I can't say.
I'm not in NYS.

trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:25:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Oren wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03

wrote:



A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside

near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through

his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside

rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used

some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that

inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule

40 PVC.



Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he

said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a

large cable to the joists.



So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically

related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?



Thanks.



I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is

related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a

specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run

along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to

the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any

possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.



I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they

enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the

wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.


There isn't anything in NEC that differentiates how a subpanel for
a pool is connected versus any other subpanel. There is no reason I
know of that says wires for a pool or anything else have to be run
in rigid conduit for a subpanel. Here, NJ, very typical to use
appropriate sized cable to go from the basement panel
to the pool subpanel, on the side of the house. If they had an
existing code compliant subpanel that the pool could run off, no
reason to go rework that with conduit inside the house, which is
what it looks like you;re saying they did.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. He did not have a panel outside the house until
the pool was installed. The panel was installed as part of the pool
installation. At the time the panel was installed, he was told that conduit
was required for the wires from that panel to the main panel.

I can say upfront that he wasn't being ripped off by the installer because
the installer is doing everything he can to save the homeowner some money.
The installer told my friend "if I buy the conduit, I have to mark it up.
Take this list. If all these conduit parts are here when I run the wires,
then I'll use it."

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 4:01:07 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:25:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Oren wrote:



On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03



wrote:







A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside



near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through



his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside



rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used



some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that



inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule



40 PVC.







Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he



said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a



large cable to the joists.







So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically



related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?







Thanks.







I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is



related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a



specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run



along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to



the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any



possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.







I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they



enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the



wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.





There isn't anything in NEC that differentiates how a subpanel for

a pool is connected versus any other subpanel. There is no reason I

know of that says wires for a pool or anything else have to be run

in rigid conduit for a subpanel. Here, NJ, very typical to use

appropriate sized cable to go from the basement panel

to the pool subpanel, on the side of the house. If they had an

existing code compliant subpanel that the pool could run off, no

reason to go rework that with conduit inside the house, which is

what it looks like you;re saying they did.



Sorry if I wasn't clear. He did not have a panel outside the house until

the pool was installed. The panel was installed as part of the pool

installation. At the time the panel was installed, he was told that conduit

was required for the wires from that panel to the main panel.



I can say upfront that he wasn't being ripped off by the installer because

the installer is doing everything he can to save the homeowner some money..

The installer told my friend "if I buy the conduit, I have to mark it up.

Take this list. If all these conduit parts are here when I run the wires,

then I'll use it."

There may have been other circumstances in the situation. He has to protect the wire from the main to the sub-panel from damage. One way is conduit. Another way is to run it inside a wall. Possibly the conduit was cheaper.. That's not specific to pools, you have to protect any exposed wire.

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 4:54:52 PM UTC-4, jamesgang wrote:
On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 4:01:07 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

trader_4 wrote:



On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:25:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:



Oren wrote:







On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03







wrote:















A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside







near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through







his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside







rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used







some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that







inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule







40 PVC.















Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he







said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a







large cable to the joists.















So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically







related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?















Thanks.















I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is







related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a







specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run







along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to







the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any







possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.















I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they







enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the







wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.











There isn't anything in NEC that differentiates how a subpanel for



a pool is connected versus any other subpanel. There is no reason I



know of that says wires for a pool or anything else have to be run



in rigid conduit for a subpanel. Here, NJ, very typical to use



appropriate sized cable to go from the basement panel



to the pool subpanel, on the side of the house. If they had an



existing code compliant subpanel that the pool could run off, no



reason to go rework that with conduit inside the house, which is



what it looks like you;re saying they did.







Sorry if I wasn't clear. He did not have a panel outside the house until



the pool was installed. The panel was installed as part of the pool



installation. At the time the panel was installed, he was told that conduit



was required for the wires from that panel to the main panel.







I can say upfront that he wasn't being ripped off by the installer because



the installer is doing everything he can to save the homeowner some money.



The installer told my friend "if I buy the conduit, I have to mark it up.



Take this list. If all these conduit parts are here when I run the wires,



then I'll use it."



There may have been other circumstances in the situation. He has to protect the wire from the main to the sub-panel from damage. One way is conduit. Another way is to run it inside a wall. Possibly the conduit was cheaper. That's not specific to pools, you have to protect any exposed wire.


I've seen electricians in NY state run sheathed cable
without a conduit for a panel right along the outside
of a house for a whole separate service. A friend of mine
bought a rental property and he had another meter installed
so that the second floor had it's own meter. The licensed
electrician ran sheathed cable, otherwise unprotected, along the
outside of the house, about 4 ft off the ground most of the
way. I thought that was unsafe and should have been protected,
but apparently they do it in the Adirondacks.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 14:44:30 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

apparently they do it in the Adirondacks.

chuckle People in the Adirondacks are special. My house foot print
never changed. Some guy comes to measure again for tax purposes and a
pending sale. Walks down the side of the hill, measured diagonally
and added ~ 30 ft. to the side foot print.

A place where "men are men, so are the women, and sheep are restless."

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 4:01:07 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:
trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:25:41 PM UTC-4, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Oren wrote:



On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:55:20 +0000 (UTC), DerbyDad03



wrote:







A friend is having a heated pool installed. He has a breaker panel outside



near the pool. He was told that per NYS code, the wires that go run through



his basement from the exterior panel to the main panel must be run inside



rigid conduit. He said that they didn't use individual wires, they used



some type of jacketed cable that contains 4(?) wires and they ran that



inside grey plastic conduit. I haven't seen it, but I assume it's Schedule



40 PVC.







Another friend had a heated pool installed last year (also in NYS) and he



said that they didn't use conduit through his basement. They just stabled a



large cable to the joists.







So what's the story? Is the conduit required? If it is, is it specifically



related to the pool or is it because there's another panel involved?







Thanks.







I'm not an electrician so cannot offer advice. I suspect this is



related to 220V, exposed wire and water. My pool wires are in a



specific type of PVC pipe that has water tight fittings. They run



along the outside wall just below ground, the length of the house, to



the pump area. I'm sure the wires are in conduit to prevent any



possible cutting by say a shovel, etc.







I was asking about the wires that run _inside_ the house from where they



enter through the wall and run back to the main interior panel, not the



wires that run underground or from the exterior panel to pump/heater/etc.





There isn't anything in NEC that differentiates how a subpanel for

a pool is connected versus any other subpanel. There is no reason I

know of that says wires for a pool or anything else have to be run

in rigid conduit for a subpanel. Here, NJ, very typical to use

appropriate sized cable to go from the basement panel

to the pool subpanel, on the side of the house. If they had an

existing code compliant subpanel that the pool could run off, no

reason to go rework that with conduit inside the house, which is

what it looks like you;re saying they did.



Sorry if I wasn't clear. He did not have a panel outside the house until

the pool was installed. The panel was installed as part of the pool

installation. At the time the panel was installed, he was told that conduit

was required for the wires from that panel to the main panel.



I can say upfront that he wasn't being ripped off by the installer because

the installer is doing everything he can to save the homeowner some money.

The installer told my friend "if I buy the conduit, I have to mark it up.

Take this list. If all these conduit parts are here when I run the wires,

then I'll use it."

Well shiver me timbers, I got this wrong. Special rules do apply
for a pool subpanel. NEC 680.25 states that any
feeders supplying a pool panel must be in conduit, either EMT, PVC,
liquidtight, etc. So, the installers are correct.

On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:18:54 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2014 15:07:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Well shiver me timbers, I got this wrong. Special rules do apply
for a pool subpanel. NEC 680.25 states that any
feeders supplying a pool panel must be in conduit, either EMT, PVC,
liquidtight, etc. So, the installers are correct.


Yup, Sorry I am late to the party, I was working today

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of
panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in
Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment
or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit,
intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit,
rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin
conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed
on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be
permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall
not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.

....which in my first comment, suggesting conduit might be necessary;
regardless , if it is in a basement. I almost feel vindicated

Oren wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2014 18:18:54 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 27 May 2014 15:07:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:


Well shiver me timbers, I got this wrong. Special rules do apply
for a pool subpanel. NEC 680.25 states that any
feeders supplying a pool panel must be in conduit, either EMT, PVC,
liquidtight, etc. So, the installers are correct.


Yup, Sorry I am late to the party, I was working today

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of
panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in
Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment
or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit,
intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit,
rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin
conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed
on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be
permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall
not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.

...which in my first comment, suggesting conduit might be necessary;
regardless , if it is in a basement. I almost feel vindicated

Almost vindicated in that people almost use a shovel in the joist bays of
their basement. :-)

wrote in message
...

On Tue, 27 May 2014 15:07:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Well shiver me timbers, I got this wrong. Special rules do apply
for a pool subpanel. NEC 680.25 states that any
feeders supplying a pool panel must be in conduit, either EMT, PVC,
liquidtight, etc. So, the installers are correct.

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of
panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in
Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment
or the source of a separately derived system.
(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit,
intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit,
rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin
conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed
on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be
permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall
not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.

It appears the Ontario Electrical Code does not need separate or
additional conduit if the wire is in "liquidtight flexible nonmetallic
conduit."
The point emphasized here is that outdoor power lines must be buried
(about 20 inches deep.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

On Monday, June 9, 2014 11:48:58 AM UTC-4, Don Phillipson wrote:
wrote in message

...



On Tue, 27 May 2014 15:07:32 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

wrote:



Well shiver me timbers, I got this wrong. Special rules do apply

for a pool subpanel. NEC 680.25 states that any

feeders supplying a pool panel must be in conduit, either EMT, PVC,

liquidtight, etc. So, the installers are correct.



680.25 Feeders.

These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of

panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in

Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment

or the source of a separately derived system.

(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit,

intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit,

rigid polyvinyl chloride conduit, or reinforced thermosetting resin

conduit. Electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed

on or within a building, and electrical nonmetallic tubing shall be

permitted where installed within a building. Aluminum conduits shall

not be permitted in the pool area where subject to corrosion.



It appears the Ontario Electrical Code does not need separate or

additional conduit if the wire is in "liquidtight flexible nonmetallic

conduit."


Which is exactly what's on the list of acceptable methods above in 680.25.





The point emphasized here is that outdoor power lines must be buried

(about 20 inches deep.)



--

Don Phillipson

Carlsbad Springs

(Ottawa, Canada)